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post #1 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:12 am Thread Starter
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Turn signals dont cancel

On my 06 K1200lt the turn signals stopped canceling after a turn. They still cancel after distance. Any idea where to look for this problem? On my honda it would have been the bank angle sensor, but I can't find a reference to that in the manual. Any help would be appreciated.

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post #2 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:28 am
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Me also.

The is the opposite my old Road King as they cancelled two seconds after you turned the on......
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post #3 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:49 am
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The LT turn signal cancellation is working as they designed it, albeit far from what anyone finds useful. There is no bank angle sensor or similar technology liike on the Gold Wing or even HD's FL models (that have had that since the early 90's, come on BMW!!). It cancels after some rolling distance.

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post #4 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:03 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empath
On my 06 K1200lt the turn signals stopped canceling after a turn. They still cancel after distance. Any idea where to look for this problem? On my honda it would have been the bank angle sensor, but I can't find a reference to that in the manual. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mark
The turn signals are distance controlled. They will cancel only when the correct distance has been traveled. They will stay on if you sit at a light, and when you begin moving again they will cancel once the appropriate distance has been traveled. Otherwise, you just make a small motion with your right thumb and cancel them yourself.

There is no such thing as a good "bank angle sensor" for a motorcycle. Many companies have tried, with little to no result. Honda once had a sensor that sensed turn of the handle bars, but that proved to be pretty problematic. Don't think it is used any longer.

There are plenty of motorcycles that have lean/bank angle switches that will turn off the ignition to the engine when the bike is layed down over 45-50 degrees, but that is a safety switch only, and will not work when the bike is turning even if the bank angle is exceeded due to the centrifugal force.

A turn signal cancellation sensor for lean angle would have to be gyroscopically driven, either mechanical or solid state, meaning expense.

In the past I spent hours searching the internet to see if there was anything of the like on an production motorcyce, could find nothing.

If you know of information to the contrary, I sure would love to know the source!

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post #5 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:52 pm
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Turn Signal Cancellation

My 2001 Ultra Classic (FLTCUI) has both lean and distance cancelling which has worked well on all of its 48800 miles. Now, if they would do something about brakes>>>>>

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post #6 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 1:20 pm Thread Starter
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Thanks

Thanks for all the information. Coming from a Goldwing I figured the BMW would at least have this tiny feature that has been on the honda's since the GL1500's. Not a big deal as long as this is how its supposed to be. I love the bike it is a much better ride then my GL1800 was.
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post #7 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 1:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraLT
My 2001 Ultra Classic (FLTCUI) has both lean and distance cancelling which has worked well on all of its 48800 miles. Now, if they would do something about brakes>>>>>

Ultra LT

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Do you have any source of information on how the lean sensing works? That is something wanted on motorcyles for ages, but quite difficult to do, without spending a fair amount of money.

I searched the internet, and the only thing I can find about Harley Bank Angle Sensor is the same as I have found previously, that it is only to shut down the engine if the bike falls over, but has nothing to do with turn signal cancellation. While a bike is moving, it is very difficult to determine if it is leaning or not.

I really would love to find information on any manufacturer's information on a lean or bank angle sensor that works with turn signals. So far I have not been able to do so.

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post #8 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 2:40 pm
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David, My 2000 Dyna Defender police bike- same era as UltraLT's - had it and it too worked very well. I do recall reading about it (owner's manual?) and it supposedly knew if you made a sharp turn and needed it cancelled, or if you were making a long, sweeping entrance ramp type of turn and leave it on longer. If I ever had more details of the system in my brain, I can't seem to access that storage area. Must have a bad sector or something, but I'm confident it will come to me later this week as I'm doing something completely unrelated!

Somebody with an owner's manual will probably jump in here sooner or later.
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post #9 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 3:07 pm
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post #10 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 3:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Do you have any source of information on how the lean sensing works? That is something wanted on motorcyles for ages, but quite difficult to do, without spending a fair amount of money.

I searched the internet, and the only thing I can find about Harley Bank Angle Sensor is the same as I have found previously, that it is only to shut down the engine if the bike falls over, but has nothing to do with turn signal cancellation. While a bike is moving, it is very difficult to determine if it is leaning or not.

I really would love to find information on any manufacturer's information on a lean or bank angle sensor that works with turn signals. So far I have not been able to do so.
Yep, my 1993 HD Ultra Classic ELectraGlide had self canceling turn signals that detected the lean through a corner and canceled them. I never had any trouble with them, and they worked like a champ.

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post #11 of 21 Old Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
Yep, my 1993 HD Ultra Classic ELectraGlide had self canceling turn signals that detected the lean through a corner and canceled them. I never had any trouble with them, and they worked like a champ.
As of yet though, I have been able to find absolutely zero information on the internet on just what they use to sense a lean. I would not have expected Harley to have developed technology other manufacturers have not used before.

Being a design engineer myself, I am extremely curious to learn what the methodology they are using is based on. You cannot use a gravity driven sensor, such as a pendulum or "mercury" type switch, so they either have incorporated a gyro type device or solid state yaw sensor. Still hard to imagine Harley doing that.

If anyone has any information on it's method of operation, I would be greatly interested to learn about it.

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post #12 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 8:43 am
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I'm not sure what Harley uses, but on my 01 FLSTSI, the only time I ever cancel the signals manually, is when I'm doing lane changes. It works exactly as I would want for all other cornering events.

The tech at the local HD shop once told me that the signals are tied to the bank angle sensor and somewhere in the odometer circuit. All I know for sure is that it works.

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post #13 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 9:28 am
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Here is some info for you

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5777290.html

Thanks,

Richard

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post #14 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 10:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
As of yet though, I have been able to find absolutely zero information on the internet on just what they use to sense a lean. I would not have expected Harley to have developed technology other manufacturers have not used before.

Being a design engineer myself, I am extremely curious to learn what the methodology they are using is based on. You cannot use a gravity driven sensor, such as a pendulum or "mercury" type switch, so they either have incorporated a gyro type device or solid state yaw sensor. Still hard to imagine Harley doing that.

If anyone has any information on it's method of operation, I would be greatly interested to learn about it.
Here's a link to a .pdf of the patent Richard posted: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat5777290.pdf

I haven't read the whole thing, but it appears that HD is not sensing actual roll angle, but only the transitional acceleration during the initiation and completion of the turn -- they have a Hall effect sensor only detecting when a ball lifts out of its seat in the bottom of a v-groove (and ignoring when it returns to a steady-state position during the turn). Clever.

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post #15 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 10:47 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
Here's a link to a .pdf of the patent Richard posted: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat5777290.pdf

I haven't read the whole thing, but it appears that HD is not sensing actual roll angle, but only the transitional acceleration during the initiation and completion of the turn -- they have a Hall effect sensor only detecting when a ball lifts out of its seat in the bottom of a v-groove (and ignoring when it returns to a steady-state position during the turn). Clever.
I haven't read the whole thing, but it appears that HD is not sensing actual roll angle, but only the transitional acceleration during the initiation and completion of the turn -- they have a Hall effect sensor only detecting when a ball lifts out of its seat in the bottom of a v-groove (and ignoring when it returns to a steady-state position during the turn). Clever.[/QUOTE]

I read the patent, and still say this will not work for turn signal cancellation. As I found in several places on the web, that sensor is only used to kill the engine if the motorcycle is dropped. That is also what the patent states as the most obvious use. Nowhere in the patent does it state that turn signal cancellation is possible.

Strangely, in places on the web I read that the Harley Bank Angle Sensor that shuts down the engine in case of a drop is located in the turn signal module. That leads me to believe they originally thought it would work to cancel turn signals, only to "discover" yet again that a gravity driven device will not do that. Then decided to use it for engine kill on drop.

In a turn, the ball will not leave the bottom of the V-groove due to centrifugal force, same as the ball in an aircraft turn and bank indicator does not leave the bottom of the tube if the turn is coordinated properly. A ball moving off center in an airplane indicates either slipping or skidding in the turn, not possible on a motorcycle without endangerment of life.

If the "anti-jiggle" timer is set at 0.7-1.3 seconds as stated in the patent, that would not sense the transitional force going into or coming out of a turn. and the steep angle would require a pretty high force to get the ball to rise up the groove, not likely to be doable in normal turning.

Still don't know how Harley is cancelling their turn signals, but I do not believe this sensor has anything to do with it. My son in laws Heritage had nothing other than a timer to cancel the signals. Turning had no affect on them.

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David Shealey
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post #16 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 10:53 am
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Should be easy to test though. I think one of the guys in my office has a Harley. I guess i could ask him turn on the turn signal, lean the bike over and back up to see what happens.

Thanks,

Richard

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post #17 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 11:02 am
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I will say that my Harley blinkers canceled every time very nicely. The tech at my dealer told me they work based on a monitor of what the throttle does, he never said it had to do with lean angle.

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post #18 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 11:56 am
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H-D uses accelerometer

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Still don't know how Harley is cancelling their turn signals, but I do not believe this sensor has anything to do with it. My son in laws Heritage had nothing other than a timer to cancel the signals. Turning had no affect on them.
I just got off the phone with the Delphi representative at the Harley-Davidson Product Development Center in Milwaukee. He confirmed that we use a single accelerometer inside the turn signal module for the tip-over shutoff, security and turn cancellation functions. As was suggested by the patent research above, the turn signal cancellation works by detecting the accelerometer blips entering & exiting a coordinated turn.

Also, quoted from the 2006 H-D Electrical Diagnostic Manual, page 3-10, Turn Signal Module Operation:

Automatic Cancellation:
  • When the directional switch is released, the system starts a 20 count. As long as the vehicle is traveling above 7MPH the directional will always cancel after 20 flashes if the system does not recognize any other input.
  • If the vehicle speed drops to 7MPH or less, including stopped, the directionals will continue to flash. Counting will resume when vehicle speed reaches 8MPH and will automatically cancel when the count total equals 20 as stated above.
  • The turn signals will cancel within two seconds upon turn completion. A sensor inside the TSM cancels the signal after the vehicle has been returned to an upright position.
It also goes on to describe an auto-calibration feature that is performed every time the bike is started & ridden for 1/4 mile at steady speeds upright.


The Delphi rep said he's aware that other manufacturers use an input on the steering head or handlebars to detect turns. Delphi and Harley-Davidson own a joint patent on the above technique. My 1995 Yamaha Virago had self-cancelling turn signals based on exiting a turn; I have no idea what they did to detect the event.

Dave

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post #19 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 12:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schweintechnik
Delphi and Harley-Davidson own a joint patent on the above technique.
This is also likely one of the reasons that BMW's system is not better -- probably locked out of this (pretty attractive) approach until the patent expires. I wouldn't cry too many tears for BMW, though -- they have their own patents which do the same thing to other companies. It's all part of the game of maintaining a competitive edge through R&D. The competitors can either take a license to the technology, design a non-infringing alternative, or just do without. I suspect that BMW hasn't failed to realize that their customers want a better system, but that they just hasn't come up with an adequate design around

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post #20 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 1:01 pm
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How about this...my 2005 LT has haunted turn signals. Without depressing any switch, my left turn signal simply begins indicating a left turn. At first I could stop it by depressing the cancellation switch. Now, in order to not be indicating a left turn, I have had to "duct tape" the cancellation switch down. Also, if I depress the right turn switch, it will indicate right turn for about 2 potatoes, then go back to indicating a left turn....all on its own! Its downright embarassing to have to pull into a Dollar General store and buy duct tape in order to stop a left turn signal from flashing...especially when riding with a group of Harley pukes.
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post #21 of 21 Old Oct 4th, 2006, 1:21 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC
How about this...my 2005 LT has haunted turn signals. Without depressing any switch, my left turn signal simply begins indicating a left turn. At first I could stop it by depressing the cancellation switch. Now, in order to not be indicating a left turn, I have had to "duct tape" the cancellation switch down. Also, if I depress the right turn switch, it will indicate right turn for about 2 potatoes, then go back to indicating a left turn....all on its own! Its downright embarassing to have to pull into a Dollar General store and buy duct tape in order to stop a left turn signal from flashing...especially when riding with a group of Harley pukes.
The right, left and cancel switches all work by closing contacts that connect their respective turn signal controller terminals to ground. Obviously, it appears that you have an exposed section of wire somewhere between the turn controller and the left turn switch that is shorting this single wire to ground (and thus telling the controller "the left turn switch is depressed").

The only way to fix it is to do a visual inspection all the way from the switch back to the controller -- if the problem is not visible when you take off the left upper handlebar cover, you're pretty much stuck with stripping off the tupperware and fuel tank to trace the wire back down into the electrical box under the tank. As you go hunting, pay particular attention to places where wires are zip-tied to one another or the bike frame -- the factory workers tend to over-tighten these at installation.

A related thought -- done any work on the bike lately? If yes, look about for possible inadvertant wire pinches between panels, frame members, etc.

Mark Neblett
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