starter spinning engine not? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 12:42 pm Thread Starter
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starter spinning engine not?

Ok, some of you may already be familiar with my recent purchase of a k1200lt that needed a clutch, and what was supposed to be a bad starter. It's an 05' and I bought it for seemingly a good price because of the work that needs to be done. I am waiting on parts for the clutch job, so I decided to address the "starter issue". After getting the bike home I determined that the starter motor in fact turns freely with a minimal clunk as it winds down. I did the research and quickly came to the conclusion that it must be the dreaded sprag clutch, which wasn't all that big of a deal since I'm already replacing the friction clutch. So now that the transmission is removed, I pulled the starter and with my finger turned the gear that contacts the starter teeth and realized that it free wheels in a counter clockwise rotation, but does in fact engage in a clockwise rotation. It seems to me that it is functioning properly. Is this proper function?

The previous owner loosened a lot of bolts, throughout the bike in his botched attempt at replacing the clutch before he realized he was in way over his head, is it possible that he had something disconnected, or hooked up improperly I.e. The reverser that would cause the starter to turn in reverse simulating a sprag clutch failure?

I've turned the gear that contacts the starter teeth several revolutions, there are no damaged teeth, and it always engages clockwise almost immediately.

Thanks for the help. Dale
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post #2 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 1:05 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

Ok. I tested the starter, and determined that the starter turns counter clockwise which would turn the intermediate gear clockwise. Which is the direction that is silently engaging to turn the motor. So it appears as though the starter, and slash clutch are functioning normally.

I wonder if the reverser may be stuck in reverse?

Last edited by superstan26; Mar 1st, 2016 at 1:13 pm.
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post #3 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 1:26 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

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Originally Posted by superstan26 View Post
Ok. I tested the starter, and determined that the starter turns counter clockwise which would turn the intermediate gear clockwise. Which is the direction that is silently engaging to turn the motor. So it appears as though the starter, and slash clutch are functioning normally.

I wonder if the reverser may be stuck in reverse?
Dale, there is a video by Kirk at BMW motorrad club of Illinois on the DIY transmission. Watch it and it shows how the reverser stuff goes in and comes out. Video streams are blocked from where I am but I think there is a cover on top of the reverser gears that can be removed without splitting the case. If my memory is correct, you can pull that cover and inspect if anything is out of place.

BMW K1200LT Transmission Repair and Rebuild DIY

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #4 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 2:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

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Dale, there is a video by Kirk at BMW motorrad club of Illinois on the DIY transmission. Watch it and it shows how the reverser stuff goes in and comes out. Video streams are blocked from where I am but I think there is a cover on top of the reverser gears that can be removed without splitting the case. If my memory is correct, you can pull that cover and inspect if anything is out of place.

BMW K1200LT Transmission Repair and Rebuild DIY
You're really handy to have around. I'll get into the groove eventually, I'm still in the infant stage of k1200lt apprenticeship.
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post #5 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 3:08 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

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You're really handy to have around. I'll get into the groove eventually, I'm still in the infant stage of k1200lt apprenticeship.

I could be wrong in my memory. Normally I would go watch the video to make sure I remember what I am telling people to do but frmo where I am, I can't do that so take what I say with a grain of salt. If I am wrong, someone else will certainly and rightly so provide a correction. I didn't take my transmission apart so this is only from memory of watching the video.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #6 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 6:15 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

If you do have the reversing lever fully in the normal position (not reverse) and the starter spins and does not engage the engine, then it is mostly the dreaded sprag clutch. It can sometimes be loosened by spraying carb cleaner into it after removing the crankcase cover and draining the oil Not real easy, but there are three holes in the sprag housing that you can insert the little tube from the spray can into. Make sure all the carb cleaner is out of the crankcase before refilling with oil. The sprag housing is in the rear of the engine, in front of the alternator in the crankcase.

Hope you do not have to replace it. I did that once, not for the weak of heart. It CAN be done without completely removing the engine, but it is actually easier if you do.
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post #7 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 6:24 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

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If you do have the reversing lever fully in the normal position (not reverse) and the starter spins and does not engage the engine, then it is mostly the dreaded sprag clutch. It can sometimes be loosened by spraying carb cleaner into it after removing the crankcase cover and draining the oil Not real easy, but there are three holes in the sprag housing that you can insert the little tube from the spray can into. Make sure all the carb cleaner is out of the crankcase before refilling with oil. The sprag housing is in the rear of the engine, in front of the alternator in the crankcase.

Hope you do not have to replace it. I did that once, not for the weak of heart. It CAN be done without completely removing the engine, but it is actually easier if you do.
I guess I'll bite the bullet and pull the bell housing while I'm in there, if I can simply clean the sprag clutch I won't be out anything but some carb and choke cleaner, and rtv silicone right?
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post #8 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 6:57 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

Here is a shot of an RS engine but close enough for the LT. Sprag is just in front of the alternator and you can get too it through the crankcase cover with spray cleaner.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #9 of 24 Old Mar 1st, 2016, 8:17 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

Here is a picture I posted a few years ago. I had taken the picture when I had to replace my pistons, and later marked it up when some were asking about the sprag clutch location, and whether or not it ran in oil all the time.
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post #10 of 24 Old Mar 4th, 2016, 4:01 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

First I'd like to say thanks to all of your replies.
So here's the situation, I'm still awaiting parts for my clutch job. I'm leaning towards not opening the intermediate case to access the starter sprag clutch. I really believe that even though the starter was engaging/spinning and the engine wasn't everything appears (to the untrained eye) to be working as designed currently.

With the starter and the alternator removed I can turn the gear that the starter meshes with clockwise which in turn rotates the paddle (for lack of better terms) that drives the alternator in a counter clockwise motion.
Is there anyone who can tell me if this is an indication that the sprag clutch is engaging properly, or is the data inconclusive? If more information is needed to determine proper function can it be determined without removing the intermediate (bell) housing or reassembly of the motorcycle?

I'm anxious to get her put back together without unnecessary cost, but not at the expense of having to immediately tear it all back down and start over.

Btw I don't believe that there is a access plate as suggested earlier in this thread.

Thank you for your time. Dale
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post #11 of 24 Old Mar 4th, 2016, 4:37 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

When you turn the gear, does the engine crank try to turn? If you turn the gear in the direction the starter would turn it, it should immediately engage the crankshaft. If it does not, then the sprag clutch is not engaging. In operation, once the engine starts the sprag housing is then turning faster than the starter drive, so it free wheels all the time the engine is running. That is why hitting the starter button with the engine running does nothing.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #12 of 24 Old Mar 4th, 2016, 4:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

Thank you dshealey, I've seen your posts on a lot of threads concerning this and other technical issues and i highly value your opinion. I haven't checked the crank, and thought that someone would be likely to suggest that. I'll check tomorrow when I return to the garage.

So just to be certain I understand you correctly just because the alternator wheel turns doesn't mean that the sprag clutch is engaging? However, if the crank turns the sprag clutch is obviously engaging properly.
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post #13 of 24 Old Mar 4th, 2016, 5:22 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

You may be correct that if the alternator drive is turning the crank is also. That would seem to be the case, as the alternator is driven by the crank, not the starter drive.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #14 of 24 Old Mar 5th, 2016, 9:43 am Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

Well, it looks like great news for me as rotating the gear that contacts the starter gear ina clockwise motion rotates the alternator drive, and the crankshaft counterclockwise. I guess whatever the issue was has worked itself out. I'm thinking that the bike probably sat for awhile since the previous owner passed away. Perhaps all the sprag clutch needed was a little movement in the opposite rotation to spring onto action?
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post #15 of 24 Old Mar 6th, 2016, 5:08 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

One thing that has helped loosen erratic sprag clutch operation for years, and on earlier BMW models, is CD-2 oil detergent additive. The sprag cage gets pretty gummed up over time, causing the sprags to stick and not lock down.

Try your local auto supply for it. Amazon has it: Amazon.com: CD2 4111 Oil Detergent. 15 oz.: Automotive

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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #16 of 24 Old Mar 6th, 2016, 9:22 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

[QUOTE=dshealey;1504265]One thing that has helped loosen erratic sprag clutch operation for years, and on earlier BMW models, is CD-2 oil detergent additive. The sprag cage gets pretty gummed up over time, causing the sprags to stick and not lock down.

Try your local auto supply for it. Amazon has it: [url=http://www.amazon.com/CD2-4111-Oil-Detergent-oz/dp/B000AM8C76]Amazon.com: CD2 4111 Oil Detergent.

Thanks again. Yesterday i got the supplies for an oil change and began reassembly. Next I want to hear it run, ride it, see if there are any hidden mechanical needs etc. Then I have some accessories I want to install from my parts bike: piaa lights, cb radio, dual helmet lock etc. Call me crazy but I'm also considering polishing the aluminum frame, and one set of wheels, maybe even one of the final drives.... just to be different. I also have a special project in mind that although somewhat unlikely would make the whole package even more appealing to me. I'm considering taking the rear portion of the parts bike and making a leaner sidecar for two of my children. That way we can ride as a family of 4 and from behind it'll look a lot like two k1200lt s riding side by side in perfect unison. Call me crazy.
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post #17 of 24 Old Mar 6th, 2016, 10:15 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

[quote=superstan26;1504505]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey View Post
One thing that has helped loosen erratic sprag clutch operation for years, and on earlier BMW models, is CD-2 oil detergent additive. The sprag cage gets pretty gummed up over time, causing the sprags to stick and not lock down.

Try your local auto supply for it. Amazon has it: [url=http://www.amazon.com/CD2-4111-Oil-Detergent-oz/dp/B000AM8C76]Amazon.com: CD2 4111 Oil Detergent.

Thanks again. Yesterday i got the supplies for an oil change and began reassembly. Next I want to hear it run, ride it, see if there are any hidden mechanical needs etc. Then I have some accessories I want to install from my parts bike: piaa lights, cb radio, dual helmet lock etc. Call me crazy but I'm also considering polishing the aluminum frame, and one set of wheels, maybe even one of the final drives.... just to be different. I also have a special project in mind that although somewhat unlikely would make the whole package even more appealing to me. I'm considering taking the rear portion of the parts bike and making a leaner sidecar for two of my children. That way we can ride as a family of 4 and from behind it'll look a lot like two k1200lt s riding side by side in perfect unison. Call me crazy.

Some one has probably done it before and if not, please post pictures I would love to see that!

Today, I took mine out for the inaugural ride of 2016 after the clutch and seal refresh, new rear rotor and pads, fluids and a FD rebuild and it reaffirmed why I love this bike so much. Took my girl Susan and I up Atlanta Hwy 9 through Dawsonville to Dahlonega GA for dinner and then back. It performed flawlessly. I think I am ready for whatever Spring training at the Iron Horse has to throw at me. These bikes are Awesome! Even at 15 years old.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #18 of 24 Old Mar 6th, 2016, 10:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1504529]
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Some one has probably done it before and if not, please post pictures I would love to see that!

Today, I took mine out for the inaugural ride of 2016 after the clutch and seal refresh, new rear rotor and pads, fluids and a FD rebuild and it reaffirmed why I love this bike so much. Took my girl Susan and I up Atlanta Hwy 9 through Dawsonville to Dahlonega GA for dinner and then back. It performed flawlessly. I think I am ready for whatever Spring training at the Iron Horse has to throw at me. These bikes are Awesome! Even at 15 years old.
I've tried every type of Google search I could think of and haven't seen an example not only with a lt, but any bike. I'm not trying to say it would be entirely original and I would be surprised if it is. The only thing that I can think of is concern for children falling asleep may deter the design for most riders. I intend to make custom "backrests" that will accommodate individual 4 point racing harnesses to keep the kiddos in place while riding. I'll definitely post lots of pics if I decide to do it. I've been corresponding with a leaner sidecar forum, and have to nail down a build strategy before I get too carried away. I have a general idea of what is needed, but went to do a lot of research to give me the best odds of a one and done design.

I really liked my 99' k1200lt and the only real dislikes were the top heaviness, and the operators seat width. The 05 fixed the seat issue, and gave me some cool new features I.e. remote access/alarm, extra lighting, and more importantly power Center stand.

Glad things are going well for you, and wish you a happy and safe riding season.

Sincerely, Dale
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post #19 of 24 Old Mar 13th, 2016, 1:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

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Well, it looks like great news for me as rotating the gear that contacts the starter gear ina clockwise motion rotates the alternator drive, and the crankshaft counterclockwise. I guess whatever the issue was has worked itself out. I'm thinking that the bike probably sat for awhile since the previous owner passed away. Perhaps all the sprag clutch needed was a little movement in the opposite rotation to spring onto action?
Well, I got the bike reassembled to the point that I could try and crank it today. Bad news the starter still spins freely without engagement.

It'll probably be near next weekend before I have a chance to work on the bike again, then I plan to give it a gallon of fresh fuel, flush the brakes, and slave and try to push start it. I don't what my odds of success are since I'm only going off of the previous owners word that it even runs, nor do I know how long ago it ran last, but I don't see that i have many options at this point.
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post #20 of 24 Old Mar 13th, 2016, 4:04 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

One off chance thought I had. Did you install the starter backwards? Both ends look the same except the one that goes to the transmission side has a bolt hole for 5 mm Allen. That would explain the spinning as it would now be going in the wrong direction. It has been a while since I have done a clutch job and I never disconnected the starter from the transmission so I really don't know if it is possible.

You could verify by looking at the starter and see if it looks oriented like this one on the transmission. i.e. is the post near the rear or the front of the starter.
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2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #21 of 24 Old Mar 13th, 2016, 4:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

I've wondered the same thing. Mine is oriented like your pic, I don't think it would fit together backwards because the outputs appeared to be different sizes.
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post #22 of 24 Old Mar 25th, 2016, 10:53 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

I've been dreading trying to push start the behemoth seeing that it; hasn't ran for a good while, I've never heard it run, don't know that it will in fact run, plus I am just now getting to where I can breathe pretty well after a tough bout with bronchitis. So in a final attempt to avoid pushing the bike a hundred miles and inevitably dropping it on the pavement, and/or myself I decided to review my options.
Ironically I came across this self same thread that I started, and have studied. Then I realized that I had misunderstood an important post multiple times regarding accessing the sprag clutch via the crank cover. I read crank case cover and envisioned intermediate housing. So tonight I removed the crank cover and sprayed the sprag clutch housing. Although I'm not getting solid contact with every attempt the clutch is engaging often, and showing improvement.
I'm getting a box of rocks sound akin to a 920 Virago as it attempts to start. I'm hoping this will work itself out. Or perhaps is because of a low battery since multiple attempts to start have been made? I'm charging the Odyssey pc680 over night. Tomorrow I check for spark since I'm not sure of the alarms condition. If spark is good I'll partially assemble and try to start, then let it run and warm up with rislone and change the oil before completion of reassembly.

Things are finally looking up. Thank you for your help!
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post #23 of 24 Old Mar 26th, 2016, 7:40 pm
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

If you can crank the alarm is disabled. It cuts off the engine electronics relay which controls the starter relay.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #24 of 24 Old Mar 26th, 2016, 8:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: starter spinning engine not?

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If you can crank the alarm is disabled. It cuts off the engine electronics relay which controls the starter relay.
Thanks for the info. I checked spark today and it's good. I'm going to change the plugs, add some fresh high octane fuel along with some additive, and give her a push or 30 to see if I can get her running then I'm going to do the rislone if all goes well. That is if I can't get it to crank on its own, I've had minimal success cranking it over.
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