Rear drive play - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 7:56 am Thread Starter
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Rear drive play

Good morning,

'02LT with 73K miles. No gear oil leaking from the rear drive. Did a routine check for rear drive play by grasping the tire at 12 and 6 o'clock positions and detected a small amount of wiggle. I don't have a dial indicator, so I don't know the exact amount of play. Is ANY play at all acceptable, or is it time to get the crown wheel bearing replaced?

Thanks,
Ken
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post #2 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 8:58 am
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Re: Rear drive play

Quote:
Originally Posted by kend52 View Post
Good morning,

'02LT with 73K miles. No gear oil leaking from the rear drive. Did a routine check for rear drive play by grasping the tire at 12 and 6 o'clock positions and detected a small amount of wiggle. I don't have a dial indicator, so I don't know the exact amount of play. Is ANY play at all acceptable, or is it time to get the crown wheel bearing replaced?

Thanks,
Ken
Hey Ken, if there is play, there is no preload on the internal taper bearing.


The assembly of the FD requires shims to be installed to apply a preload on the taper bearing inside the FD. This takes up all the play in the FD. If you are detecting play then it should be looked at. Detecting play at 73K, I would expect to replace the crown bearing and check/replace with the proper thickness shims to reapply the proper preload as long as there are no other issues like creeping pinion race, spun taper seat, leaking pinion seal or excessive wear/chipping of the crown and pinion gears.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #3 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 2:02 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

Just a thought,...The pins the final drive attaches to the swing arm with ,may be a little sloppy...Or not...
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post #4 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 2:17 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by Patric View Post
Just a thought,...The pins the final drive attaches to the swing arm with ,may be a little sloppy...Or not...
Good point, I just read that same thing on a different forum. A good idea to check the pivot bearings before tearing the FD apart. Make sure they are properly adjusted and not worn.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #5 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 2:19 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by Patric View Post
Just a thought,...The pins the final drive attaches to the swing arm with ,may be a little sloppy...Or not...
Had it happen on my first LT, by coincidence an '02.

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post #6 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 2:23 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by Munmi View Post
Had it happen on my first LT, by coincidence an '02.
Just did my 01 FD with 56K, pivot bearings are like new. No history if they were ever swapped out though. Play is now gone after the proper shims were put in on the new bearing.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #7 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 4:26 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

Is there play when you move the wheel side to side e.g.. 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. When I had play with my R850R, 12-6 o'clock had play but 9-3 didn't. Turned out to be the joint between the final drive and the swing arm... just a thought.

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post #8 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 7:57 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by Patric View Post
Just a thought,...The pins the final drive attaches to the swing arm with ,may be a little sloppy...Or not...
Good points all who replied. I'll check the pivot bearings tomorrow.

Thanks,
Ken
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post #9 of 24 Old Feb 26th, 2016, 8:42 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

Easy check is to watch the brake rotor relative to the caliper - if no movement there it IS the pivot pins. If it is the bearing you will see relative movement at the caliper.
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post #10 of 24 Old Mar 6th, 2016, 6:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by Kevin12T View Post
Is there play when you move the wheel side to side e.g.. 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. When I had play with my R850R, 12-6 o'clock had play but 9-3 didn't. Turned out to be the joint between the final drive and the swing arm... just a thought.
Took a few days with work commitments and other "stuff" but finally checked to see if grasping the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock and rocking it back and forth had play. It did, so I removed the rear drive and set it up to test the play with a dial indicator. Took several measurements with all of them being right at .003 inch. The tapered roller bearing and race appear to be on good shape, though.

I suppose the .003 inch free play indicates a new crown wheel bearing, oil seal and shimming. Any other option make sense (like reshimming only)?

Thanks,
Ken
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post #11 of 24 Old Mar 6th, 2016, 7:06 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by kend52 View Post
Took a few days with work commitments and other "stuff" but finally checked to see if grasping the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock and rocking it back and forth had play. It did, so I removed the rear drive and set it up to test the play with a dial indicator. Took several measurements with all of them being right at .003 inch. The tapered roller bearing and race appear to be on good shape, though.

I suppose the .003 inch free play indicates a new crown wheel bearing, oil seal and shimming. Any other option make sense (like reshimming only)?

Thanks,
Ken
I would say that is the right option. Do you have something accurate enough to measure the shims you took out? I just bought a flebay FD and am going to rework it as a spare. I took it apart and it looks OK, a 99 with 40K on it. Going to measure before I pull the old bearing to see how well shimmed it was. It had a .6 and a .15 shim for .75 total. My FD on the bike had .7 in it and was over shimmed. Just curious what yours comes in at assuming it has not been done before.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #12 of 24 Old Mar 7th, 2016, 1:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
I would say that is the right option. Do you have something accurate enough to measure the shims you took out? I just bought a flebay FD and am going to rework it as a spare. I took it apart and it looks OK, a 99 with 40K on it. Going to measure before I pull the old bearing to see how well shimmed it was. It had a .6 and a .15 shim for .75 total. My FD on the bike had .7 in it and was over shimmed. Just curious what yours comes in at assuming it has not been done before.
I should have been clearer in how I measured the free play. I did not open up the rear drive at all. I measured the free play using the DMAN method, but without opening up the drive. I'm the third owner of the bike. I understand from the PO that the rear drive I took off the bike and measured was a used, but rebuilt, unit. He had the original rear drive, too, and threw that in the sale.

A question I have is whether the .003 inch free play is enough to damage the crown wheel bearing, assuming it had that free play for 50K miles.

I do have calipers accurate to .001 inch that I will use to measure the shims when I open up the drive.

Thanks,
Ken
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post #13 of 24 Old Mar 7th, 2016, 2:58 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by kend52 View Post
I should have been clearer in how I measured the free play. I did not open up the rear drive at all. I measured the free play using the DMAN method, but without opening up the drive. I'm the third owner of the bike. I understand from the PO that the rear drive I took off the bike and measured was a used, but rebuilt, unit. He had the original rear drive, too, and threw that in the sale.

A question I have is whether the .003 inch free play is enough to damage the crown wheel bearing, assuming it had that free play for 50K miles.

I do have calipers accurate to .001 inch that I will use to measure the shims when I open up the drive.

Thanks,
Ken
Ken, that .003 of play at the crown wheel will allow the tapered bearing to slap back and forth against the bearing seat as the weight transfers from side to side and the thrust angle changes. If left alone, it will eventually damage the seat and rollers and the bearing and race will need to be replaced. Got some pics from Dave ( saddleman) on one of his posts to show what can happen when there is no preload from under shimming.

The DMAN method is good as long as you make sure the crown wheel is fully seated back down on the taper bearing for a zero. Tapping is usually in order on the down swing and a reset of the zero reference especially if you still have the seal in place and have not heated the casing to allow the bearing to move more freely up and down. Is .003 enough to cause damage? I have not seen data on that in any post i have read but it won't get any better. If you can feel the play at the wheel, imagine what that taper bearing is doing inside that race over every bump. It is not transferring the load evenly to the race if it is not in contact with it 360 degrees around.
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Gordon
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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #14 of 24 Old Mar 7th, 2016, 3:40 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by kend52 View Post
...I did not open up the rear drive at all. I measured the free play using the DMAN method, but without opening up the drive...
There should be no axial movement of the crowngear assembly in a properly assembled final drive. That you were able to detect measurable movement is a clear indication that something isn't right inside that drive.
With proper preload on the crowngear assembly as established by the crownwheel bearing shim, there should be absolutely no detectable axial movement.

If I follow your description above, this final drive was rebuilt during the prior ownership.
I helped to pioneer some of the DIY rebuild methods, but eventually started recommending against DIY rebuilds. There is a learning curve to doing these and many confounding variables come into play. This wouldn't be the first case of undershimming that resulted from a DIY rebuild (if that is what the problem is).

I don't follow these threads as closely as I used to, so I may have missed something. But if you find dark color lube you could have a spinning tapered roller bearing or a spinning crowngear assembly trunnion; either of those could have caused wear leading to axial play. However, on a previously rebuild drive, my first suspicion is under shimming due to measurement errors during that rebuild.

In any case, the drive needs open and inspection for the usual suspects: i.e. creeping input pinion bearing race, spinning tapered roller bearing, spinning trunnion, and rebuild with a new crownwheel bearing at a minimum. With detectable wobble, the tapered roller bearing would be very suspect for microspalling and should be replaced too...
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post #15 of 24 Old Mar 7th, 2016, 4:04 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
...The DMAN method is good as long as you make sure the crown wheel is fully seated back down on the taper bearing for a zero. Tapping is usually in order on the down swing and a reset of the zero reference especially if you still have the seal in place and have not heated the casing to allow the bearing to move more freely up and down...
You are touching on an important variable regarding the DMAN final drive rebuild method.
During my years of inquiry into these final drives, I compared the outcomes of the DMAN method to the BMW Service Manual method. Both methods are capable of giving the same results, but both methods are fraught with their own set of confounding variables.

In the DMAN method, final drive cover temperature is an important factor in consistent results. The crown gear assembly can resist movement down resulting in the tapered roller bearing failing to fully seat in its race. Or, the crown gear assembly can resist movement up so that the crown gear bearing fails to seat fully in the cover. AND it can do this in a way that makes you think you are getting repeatable results! The consequence of this is under shimming (which I have seen and read reports of; and it sounds like the issue in the subject drive in this thread).
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post #16 of 24 Old Mar 24th, 2016, 7:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Rear drive play

I finally had a free weekend day to take the rear drive apart. Found the taper roller bearing to slip off the end of the trunnion. I measured the trunnion end diameter and got 24.97 mm. The bearing has an inside diameter of 25 mm. So, a pretty small gap. I need to use one of the Loctite products to fill the gap and secure the bearing on the trunnion. I was thinking about using Loctite 640. The specs on it seem to fit what I need. Thought I would ask the LT group for comment on my choice. Also, will acetone work to clean the trunnion and bearing, or do I need the Loctite primer?

Thanks,
Ken
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post #17 of 24 Old Mar 24th, 2016, 8:13 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by kend52 View Post
I finally had a free weekend day to take the rear drive apart. Found the taper roller bearing to slip off the end of the trunnion. I measured the trunnion end diameter and got 24.97 mm. The bearing has an inside diameter of 25 mm. So, a pretty small gap. I need to use one of the Loctite products to fill the gap and secure the bearing on the trunnion. I was thinking about using Loctite 640. The specs on it seem to fit what I need. Thought I would ask the LT group for comment on my choice. Also, will acetone work to clean the trunnion and bearing, or do I need the Loctite primer?

Thanks,
Ken
Saddleman is the current authority on the FD rebuilds. I know he uses something and leaves it in a press overnight for the taper bearing.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #18 of 24 Old Mar 26th, 2016, 8:10 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

Quote:
Originally Posted by kend52 View Post
I finally had a free weekend day to take the rear drive apart. Found the taper roller bearing to slip off the end of the trunnion. I measured the trunnion end diameter and got 24.97 mm. The bearing has an inside diameter of 25 mm. So, a pretty small gap. I need to use one of the Loctite products to fill the gap and secure the bearing on the trunnion. I was thinking about using Loctite 640. The specs on it seem to fit what I need. Thought I would ask the LT group for comment on my choice. Also, will acetone work to clean the trunnion and bearing, or do I need the Loctite primer?

Thanks,
Ken
Ken

Go look at this thread . It shows how I fixed my rear drive with the same failure.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #19 of 24 Old Mar 26th, 2016, 11:05 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Ken

Go look at this thread . It shows how I fixed my rear drive with the same failure.
John, that was an excellent thread. I have my spare apart and am going through it now. No lose taper bearing and no sign of needle bearing creep. So far, I am happy with my Ebay purchase. New pinion seal and the pinion seems much tighter than before. Shims are the same, bearings are the same as I saw no pitting or wear on them. It does take more force to turn the pinion without the crown installed than I remember. Is that the new seal causing that? I would expect it to be similar to when I first disassembled it. It is a double lip seal and not the BMW supplied one. No sign of interference with the pinon nut and the seal.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #20 of 24 Old Mar 27th, 2016, 1:32 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

An alternative to the wonderful sleeve made for me is to have the mandrel knurled at a machine shop to increase the diameter. Then use sleeve retainer loctite on the bearing.

I did the sleeve because I had one and it was so thin I may have been better off with a knurl job.

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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Re: Rear drive play

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
John, that was an excellent thread. I have my spare apart and am going through it now. No lose taper bearing and no sign of needle bearing creep. So far, I am happy with my Ebay purchase. New pinion seal and the pinion seems much tighter than before. Shims are the same, bearings are the same as I saw no pitting or wear on them. It does take more force to turn the pinion without the crown installed than I remember. Is that the new seal causing that? I would expect it to be similar to when I first disassembled it. It is a double lip seal and not the BMW supplied one. No sign of interference with the pinon nut and the seal.
I have had a few apart and never noticed an increase in resistance to turning when I put them back together. I would check it out better, maybe some thread sealant got into one of the bearings?

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #22 of 24 Old Mar 27th, 2016, 10:17 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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I have had a few apart and never noticed an increase in resistance to turning when I put them back together. I would check it out better, maybe some thread sealant got into one of the bearings?
I did the crown shim measurement today and found it to be at the high end of acceptable so I cleaned it really well and put it back together with the original bearing and shims. Once I added a little oil, and turned it a bit, it got loser. The bearings were completely dry when I assembled the pinion except for some I put on the outside of the races and the seal lip in the lock ring. I hammered in the new pivot bearings and races also. I think it is OK and will place it on the shelf as a spare and spin it from time to time to circulate oil until I need it.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #23 of 24 Old Mar 28th, 2016, 8:44 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

Bearing always do better with at least a light oiling.
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #24 of 24 Old Mar 28th, 2016, 10:32 pm
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Re: Rear drive play

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Bearing always do better with at least a light oiling.
I put it together bone dry from being heavily sprayed with brake cleaner. The exception being the outside of the race and the contact with the inside of the housing so it could be inserted more easily.

If I do another one of these, I will make sure it has some oil on it before I assemble. I don't have the speed sensor so there is currently an open hole and I didn't want oil pouring out till I find something to plug it with.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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