Low Idle Speed - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 38 Old Nov 22nd, 2015, 2:36 pm Thread Starter
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Low Idle Speed

Hi Guys

Can anyone help. I put my bike into a garage, not a dealership, to get the clutch changed on my K1200LT. I have got the bike back now but it idles at 800 RPM where as before it idled at 1000 RPM. I checked the CLYMER manual and it reckons it could be an air leak from somewhere. All the connections have been checked and nothing seems to be loose. With it idling at 800 the clutch seems to rattle and the reverse doesn't work, but if you hold the throttle at 1000 the rattle goes and the reverse works. When I ride it on the open road there is now difference to what it was before it responds to the throttle no problem.

I've taken off all the tupperware and when you look at all the injection system all screws and adjusters have still got a spot of blue paint on them (i suppose so they can check at the dealership if you've tampered with anything) but when i look at the throttle position sensor you can see that there is a mark where there was a spot of paint, but it's gone. Could that be the reason for the idle being wrong and if so how can i sort it.

Any help would be grateful.
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post #2 of 38 Old Nov 22nd, 2015, 3:38 pm
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by Kevin12T View Post
Hi Guys

Can anyone help. I put my bike into a garage, not a dealership, to get the clutch changed on my K1200LT. I have got the bike back now but it idles at 800 RPM where as before it idled at 1000 RPM. I checked the CLYMER manual and it reckons it could be an air leak from somewhere. All the connections have been checked and nothing seems to be loose. With it idling at 800 the clutch seems to rattle and the reverse doesn't work, but if you hold the throttle at 1000 the rattle goes and the reverse works. When I ride it on the open road there is now difference to what it was before it responds to the throttle no problem.

I've taken off all the tupperware and when you look at all the injection system all screws and adjusters have still got a spot of blue paint on them (i suppose so they can check at the dealership if you've tampered with anything) but when i look at the throttle position sensor you can see that there is a mark where there was a spot of paint, but it's gone. Could that be the reason for the idle being wrong and if so how can i sort it.

Any help would be grateful.
Kevin,
During last 4 years I have done a lot of testing and research on the Throttle-bodies, Idle-speed-control and TPS of these engines. I can tell you that there NO simple clear-cut answer for your problem when doing troubleshooting at a distance (without having bike in my garage).

HOWEVER, I know for a fact that WHEN these symptoms appear after major work was done on a k1200 (like a clutch job you had) there are often some common causes to investigate first. In order or most probable:

1) Something simple to try is to reset the learned parameter of BOSH-Motronic by removing the EFI fuse for 20 minutes of more (while igntion is off), Check your owners manual as the 1999-2004 do not have same fuse-box design as later models. Re-intall fuse (after 20 min or more), make sure the trottle is fully closed at idle stop BUT do not keep your hand on it, turn ignition ON, wait 8 seconds, start engine without touching throtlle. You may need to do a few rides before the idle fully stabilize as Motronic-EFI will relearn some parameters.

2) When everything was put back together after clutch job, it very common to have incorrect throttle-cables routing OR cable free-play adjustment. This will cause the throttle-bodies NOT to sit at real mechanical idle-stop. Hence, Bosh-Motonic EFI becomes confused by the TPS value at idle-stop. When this is adjusted back to normal, you should also do step 1 above to reset memory of Motronic unit before next ride. See CLYMER or BMW repair manual about cable free play adjust.


ANY intake air leaks caused by incorrect mounting of throtle-bodies OR incorrect connection of vacuum hoses would cause a high-idle condition in most cases, so this is not where I would concentrate my effort initially.
bmwcoolk1200 and RemonLT like this.

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John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #3 of 38 Old Nov 23rd, 2015, 7:17 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by Kevin12T View Post
Hi Guys

Can anyone help. I put my bike into a garage, not a dealership, to get the clutch changed on my K1200LT. I have got the bike back now but it idles at 800 RPM where as before it idled at 1000 RPM. I checked the CLYMER manual and it reckons it could be an air leak from somewhere. All the connections have been checked and nothing seems to be loose. With it idling at 800 the clutch seems to rattle and the reverse doesn't work, but if you hold the throttle at 1000 the rattle goes and the reverse works. When I ride it on the open road there is now difference to what it was before it responds to the throttle no problem.

I've taken off all the tupperware and when you look at all the injection system all screws and adjusters have still got a spot of blue paint on them (i suppose so they can check at the dealership if you've tampered with anything) but when i look at the throttle position sensor you can see that there is a mark where there was a spot of paint, but it's gone. Could that be the reason for the idle being wrong and if so how can i sort it.

Any help would be grateful.
Reverse does not work because most likely the voltage is too low as the bike idles low. BUT when you hit starter button the stepper motor should increase the idle if everything works as it should - does it do that?

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post #4 of 38 Old Nov 23rd, 2015, 2:59 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Reverse does not work because most likely the voltage is too low as the bike idles low. BUT when you hit starter button the stepper motor should increase the idle if everything works as it should - does it do that?
Hi C-A-D

I tried John's idea of removing the EFI fuse for 20 mins or more this morning then ignition on and wait for 8 seconds then press the starter motor without touching the throttle but to no avail, it did not work.

My Stepper motor does not come on, if you press the starter it tries to start and dies immediately you have to hold the throttle on to get it to start. When it does start you have to hold the throttle on for about a minute before it will run without dyeing.

Kev
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post #5 of 38 Old Nov 23rd, 2015, 5:00 pm
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Hi C-A-D

I tried John's idea of removing the EFI fuse for 20 mins or more this morning then ignition on and wait for 8 seconds then press the starter motor without touching the throttle but to no avail, it did not work.

My Stepper motor does not come on, if you press the starter it tries to start and dies immediately you have to hold the throttle on to get it to start. When it does start you have to hold the throttle on for about a minute before it will run without dyeing.

Kev
As mentioned earlier, Next step in troubleshooting would be to make sure the free-play of both throttle-cables is correct. Very probable the routing OR free-play was changed when everything was re-installed after clutch job. A lack of free-play can really mess up the Motronic setup about TPS at idle-stop.

Obviously, it would MUCH easier if you can find someone in your area with a GS911 to read any faults codes for the EFI system (engine). This would confirm if the EFI is seeing a Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) error OR an Idle-actuator error. There are ways around using the GS911 or the dealer's computer to troubleshoot this BUT it is really NOT easy to explain all steps at a distance.

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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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Last edited by sailor; Nov 23rd, 2015 at 6:14 pm.
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post #6 of 38 Old Nov 24th, 2015, 4:31 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
As mentioned earlier, Next step in troubleshooting would be to make sure the free-play of both throttle-cables is correct. Very probable the routing OR free-play was changed when everything was re-installed after clutch job. A lack of free-play can really mess up the Motronic setup about TPS at idle-stop.

Obviously, it would MUCH easier if you can find someone in your area with a GS911 to read any faults codes for the EFI system (engine). This would confirm if the EFI is seeing a Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) error OR an Idle-actuator error. There are ways around using the GS911 or the dealer's computer to troubleshoot this BUT it is really NOT easy to explain all steps at a distance.
I have found someone who can lend me a GS-911 so I can find out any codes and problems that may have been logged.
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post #7 of 38 Old Nov 24th, 2015, 6:07 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

It acts like the Idle actuator / stepper motor would be not working? Symptoms: Reverse won't engage, hard to start without throttle, needs warming up before idling. Perhaps that connector from harness to idle actuator is not connected or loose?

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post #8 of 38 Old Nov 24th, 2015, 7:19 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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It acts like the Idle actuator / stepper motor would be not working? Symptoms: Reverse won't engage, hard to start without throttle, needs warming up before idling. Perhaps that connector from harness to idle actuator is not connected or loose?
Good point - I agree this is a quite probable.
However I felt that instead of having him remove all fairings to check this, we might as well get any errors logged in system to get other "potential" causes as one big picture.

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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #9 of 38 Old Nov 24th, 2015, 7:29 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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I have found someone who can lend me a GS-911 so I can find out any codes and problems that may have been logged.
OK, depending how familiar the lending person is with GS911, the 1st step would be to run the "Autoscan" menu item that is visible in 1st page of PC/Windows interface. This menu item is NOT hidden under selection of bike models listed on left side of interface screen.

Once you have the Autoscan info on screen, you can save this into a file (menu or button offered in same interface screen). You may need to rename the file as a .TXT extension or convert to PDF before you post it here into a message. I am not in garage right now, but I do vaguely recall it was "Save As" an HTML format that will not be accepted into post here.

if you can, hold on to the GS911 for another day. Once I have the AutoScan report I may need added test where we log real-time data (engine runnning with bike on center-stand).
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #10 of 38 Old Nov 24th, 2015, 8:34 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi Sailor

Sorry, forgot to mention, my bike is sitting in my garage just now in a state of undress. All the tupperware is off already.

I am in a BMW club here, they are the ones that are going to lend me the GS-911. Unfortunately it is with another member just now.

It was a member of the club that gave me the link to your site saying if I needed to know anything about LT's this was by far the best one to go to.

Kev
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post #11 of 38 Old Nov 25th, 2015, 5:04 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi Sailor, C-A-D

I have spoken to the mechanic that did my clutch and he says, to get to one of the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies to remove them he removed the black box from in front of it. So I'm guessing that is where I will focus my attentions first when I get the GS-911. He says he didn't disconnect the wiring but will check it anyway.

The CLYMER manual says not to remove it, will this cause big problems now.
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post #12 of 38 Old Nov 25th, 2015, 7:33 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Hi Sailor, C-A-D

I have spoken to the mechanic that did my clutch and he says, to get to one of the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies to remove them he removed the black box from in front of it. So I'm guessing that is where I will focus my attentions first when I get the GS-911. He says he didn't disconnect the wiring but will check it anyway.

The CLYMER manual says not to remove it, will this cause big problems now.
Sorry but mechanics is not very clear or cannot communicate ;-)
There is nothing clear about: "the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies"
AND
talking about a "black box" without being able to specify WHAT:
1) is he trying to refer to Idle-Actuator (TVA)?: There are 3 torx screw right in front of you on left side. However, on K1200lT you need to remove the fuel-tank to see better aroud throttle-bodies as the fuel-tank goes fairly low on left side.

2) on the other hand, if he is trying to refer to Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) that is sitting at extreme back end of throttle-bodies, then obviously I agree that you cannot do much about it unless you remove the whole throttle-bodies. BUT... you should not need to touch or adjust TPS unless mechanics messed-up something, It is easy to force the TPS to move or rotate during a clutch job when engine is lowered (large wiring pulling from top AND the TPS may hit the back frame).

In any case, note that checking/removing the Idle-Actuator (TVA) is fairly easy. However removing the whole Throttle-bodies and reinstalling everything related properly requires a lot more time, patience and good mechanical skills. This is the reason why I insist first to get GS911 data so we can get a clue into a potential TVA or TPS faults. On the other hand, if problem is mechanical caused by clutch job (cables, linkage, Throttle-bodies, TVA bracket), then GS911 may not be able to tell much.
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John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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Last edited by sailor; Nov 25th, 2015 at 7:44 am.
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post #13 of 38 Old Nov 25th, 2015, 8:39 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Sorry but mechanics is not very clear or cannot communicate ;-)
There is nothing clear about: "the jubilee clips on the throttle bodies"
AND
talking about a "black box" without being able to specify WHAT:
1) is he trying to refer to Idle-Actuator (TVA)?: There are 3 torx screw right in front of you on left side. However, on K1200lT you need to remove the fuel-tank to see better aroud throttle-bodies as the fuel-tank goes fairly low on left side.

2) on the other hand, if he is trying to refer to Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) that is sitting at extreme back end of throttle-bodies, then obviously I agree that you cannot do much about it unless you remove the whole throttle-bodies. BUT... you should not need to touch or adjust TPS unless mechanics messed-up something, It is easy to force the TPS to move or rotate during a clutch job when engine is lowered (large wiring pulling from top AND the TPS may hit the back frame).

In any case, note that checking/removing the Idle-Actuator (TVA) is fairly easy. However removing the whole Throttle-bodies and reinstalling everything related properly requires a lot more time, patience and good mechanical skills. This is the reason why I insist first to get GS911 data so we can get a clue into a potential TVA or TPS faults. On the other hand, if problem is mechanical caused by clutch job (cables, linkage, Throttle-bodies, TVA bracket), then GS911 may not be able to tell much.
I agree completely, I think he reckons I just ride the bike and have no idea, we'll just have to wait till i get the GS-911.

Kev
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post #14 of 38 Old Nov 26th, 2015, 8:00 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

I still go for faulty connection to TVA. He might have (for some reason) disconnected that during the clutch job. Or at least disconnected it when lowering engine and giving "room" for harness. I do not remember anymore from my clutch job did it have to come off when doing clutch.

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post #15 of 38 Old Nov 26th, 2015, 8:40 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi C-A-D

I have taken the petrol tank off the bike and from what I can see you can tell the TVA has been removed as there is marks on the 3 Torx screws so I gather that this IS the black box he referred to. It looks like he has put everything back as it came off because one of the retaining clips that holds the air box to throttle body tops is in such a position that you would need to take the TVA off to loosen and remove the air box.

I have checked the TVA connection up inside the plug and checked the pins it connect to, there is no visual damage to them, re-connected the plug and heard it click into place, I've put the petrol tank back on and have started it but it still won't Idle properly. Still waiting to get the GS-911 so will keep everyone posted.
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post #16 of 38 Old Nov 26th, 2015, 11:17 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Hi C-A-D

I have taken the petrol tank off the bike and from what I can see you can tell the TVA has been removed as there is marks on the 3 Torx screws so I gather that this IS the black box he referred to. It looks like he has put everything back as it came off because one of the retaining clips that holds the air box to throttle body tops is in such a position that you would need to take the TVA off to loosen and remove the air box.

I have checked the TVA connection up inside the plug and checked the pins it connect to, there is no visual damage to them, re-connected the plug and heard it click into place, I've put the petrol tank back on and have started it but it still won't Idle properly. Still waiting to get the GS-911 so will keep everyone posted.
Try following: Turn on the power. If TVA works OK you should hear sound from the stepper motor (that small black box on top of and in the middle of fuel rail) when it drives throttle to "starting position". And/or put your finger on that - you should feel it operate.

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post #17 of 38 Old Nov 26th, 2015, 11:30 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Ok I shall try that and let you know sir.
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post #18 of 38 Old Nov 30th, 2015, 8:16 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Try following: Turn on the power. If TVA works OK you should hear sound from the stepper motor (that small black box on top of and in the middle of fuel rail) when it drives throttle to "starting position". And/or put your finger on that - you should feel it operate.
Hi C-A-D

I have checked the TVA to see if ti is working and it is. I have removed the air filter box and it moves to the same position every time so i take that to be the (Starting position). I also see there is an adjuster and lock nut resting on the (Pin) from the TVA. I have undone the locknut and turned the adjuster about 3/4 of a turn, when you start the bike now it starts without using the throttle and sits at 1000rpm after a couple of seconds.

Was that the right thing to do?.

Kev
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post #19 of 38 Old Nov 30th, 2015, 9:52 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Hi C-A-D

I have checked the TVA to see if ti is working and it is. I have removed the air filter box and it moves to the same position every time so i take that to be the (Starting position). I also see there is an adjuster and lock nut resting on the (Pin) from the TVA. I have undone the locknut and turned the adjuster about 3/4 of a turn, when you start the bike now it starts without using the throttle and sits at 1000rpm after a couple of seconds.

Was that the right thing to do?.

Kev
Technically, this is not the right way to adjust TVA, HOWEVER you may have stumble by accident to a correct setting.
Let me explain why:
1) The TVA does not have a direct feedback mechanism to the Motronic-EFI. Instead, the Motronic uses the facts that every time the stepper-motor of TVA pushes forward (or goes backward), the Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) will be directly affected by a very precise amount (as throttle butterflies assy will rotate)

2) The TVA is attached to the Throttle-body-assy (TB) by a metal bracket. In some removal job (like your recent clutch job), some mechanic/owners have bent that bracket a small amount and this has caused the TVA to be out of normal tolerances (Max / Min travel of stepper motor).

3) Hence, it is always possible (but NOT very probable) that when you adjusted the screw on the arm that touches the TVA piston, you may have compensated for incorrect bracket position.

I would hold off to conclude all is solved until you have done the followings:
A) remove Motronic fuse for 20 minutes (with ignition OFF)
B) re-install fuse and make a few start / rides from various temp (cold and warm)
Above steps may take a few days to achieve the re-learning of Motronic AND testing of various conditions.

If you feel adventurous, you may like to test your TVA unit using the attached PDF document that I have created based on my experience.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BMW_K1200_Throttle-Valve-Actuator TVA (version 1-2).pdf (352.2 KB, 563 views)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #20 of 38 Old Nov 30th, 2015, 10:32 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Hi C-A-D

I have checked the TVA to see if ti is working and it is. I have removed the air filter box and it moves to the same position every time so i take that to be the (Starting position). I also see there is an adjuster and lock nut resting on the (Pin) from the TVA. I have undone the locknut and turned the adjuster about 3/4 of a turn, when you start the bike now it starts without using the throttle and sits at 1000rpm after a couple of seconds.

Was that the right thing to do?.

Kev
To be absolutely honest. I really do not remember the exact construction of TVA and it's connection / joints to the throttle body. Never have had to mess with those. One thing one shouldn't do is to adjust the throttle body adjusters / lock nuts as they are factory-adjusted. BUT in the end - if the bike now operates as it should, fuel consumption is reasonable and no errors in GS911, guess everything is OK and you should congratulate yourself

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post #21 of 38 Old Nov 30th, 2015, 12:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi Sailor,C-A-D

I have left the bike in my garage just now until I get the GS-911 and check it first to see if there is any fault codes. I have a small mirror and am going to check to see if the throttle stop for the cables is touching the adjuster on the rail. will keep you posted.

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post #22 of 38 Old Jan 11th, 2016, 4:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi C-A-D and sailor

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you guys I have only just received my GS-911. When I put it on the bike it said that both Hall effect sensors were not working, but that was because the bike wasn't running, so no problems there.

It did say the idle was not working properly and attempts to rectify were 174 times, but it also said on the next line that the error was no longer present.

I Cleared the codes and ran the bike for a while then put the GS back on the only things that came up were the Hall sensors, again the engine was not running, so I Think I've been lucky this time.

Kev
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post #23 of 38 Old Jan 14th, 2016, 9:50 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Hi C-A-D and sailor

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you guys I have only just received my GS-911. When I put it on the bike it said that both Hall effect sensors were not working, but that was because the bike wasn't running, so no problems there.

It did say the idle was not working properly and attempts to rectify were 174 times, but it also said on the next line that the error was no longer present.

I Cleared the codes and ran the bike for a while then put the GS back on the only things that came up were the Hall sensors, again the engine was not running, so I Think I've been lucky this time.

Kev
Have you performed the TPS test (adjustment 1st phase) to check how the TPS works or is adjusted?

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post #24 of 38 Old Jan 14th, 2016, 10:45 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi C-A-D

No I had forgotten to do that, I will re-connect the Tool and check it. Will let you know what results I get.

Kev
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post #25 of 38 Old Jan 14th, 2016, 10:52 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by C-A-D View Post
Have you performed the TPS test (adjustment 1st phase) to check how the TPS works or is adjusted?
It has been awhile since I replaced my TPS but I think I remember in order to get an accurate reading on its initial position, the TVA has to be removed so the throttle body is at dead stops making sure not to mess with any of the adjustment screws on the TB.

I know Sailor put together an excellent breakdown of the TPS but I don't have a copy on the computer I am using to check if the adjustment procedure with the GS911 was included in that. Been awhile since i looked at it. I did mine with the TB removed as I was replacing the TPS anyways so i had access to the TPS screws which are impossible to reach with the TB installed. The TPS can be checked while installed though. Just make sure the TVA is not in place. I left it connected just removed so not attempting to move the TB from base stops.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #26 of 38 Old Jan 14th, 2016, 11:53 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
It has been awhile since I replaced my TPS but I think I remember in order to get an accurate reading on its initial position, the TVA has to be removed so the throttle body is at dead stops making sure not to mess with any of the adjustment screws on the TB.

I know Sailor put together an excellent breakdown of the TPS but I don't have a copy on the computer I am using to check if the adjustment procedure with the GS911 was included in that. Been awhile since i looked at it. I did mine with the TB removed as I was replacing the TPS anyways so i had access to the TPS screws which are impossible to reach with the TB installed. The TPS can be checked while installed though. Just make sure the TVA is not in place. I left it connected just removed so not attempting to move the TB from base stops.
KEVIN, GORDON,

My PDF document (see link below) was mainly designed for those who (1) either do not have a GS911 -OR- (2) need to do more advanced troubleshooting if TPS is intermittent or defective -OR- (3) have messed-up with "tamper-proof" screws with blue paint at wrong time or wrong setting.

Of course the GS911 has an interface to check the "basic" TPS setting at idle stop, HOWEVER the procedure is a bit confusing when you follow their screen prompts. Last year, I did a bit it more "static" tests in garage using GS911 software (version 1411.2 not-beta) and using the VoltMeter method to compare. Found a few useful items like:

(1) Their TPS setting / adjusting interface is bit better than 2 years ago. The only part that is still confusing for novice if the 1st or 2nd screen where you see you are above green and they tell you to move steering to check enough free play in cable - TPS should not increase - that is the main message here.

This part can just be skipped and omitted and you go to next screen where eventually the TVA will be either: set to lowest position by GS911 , or they tell you later to unbolt it temporarily.

(2) If the TVA is pulled out from bracket at wrong time, but still plugged in its connector, the piston goes to end and keeps expecting a higher TPS, but it never happens. This is where an error will be logged in engine faults (description of error is not very clear however). If you remove TVA from bracket ONLY at the requested steps by GS911 then you do not get this error. I suspect they reset something internally OR they are able to set Motronic in a special mode.

(3) If indeed you need to change the TPS position, you have to be VERY CAREFULL as 1 torx screw is hidden and can hardly be reached with air-box and Throttle-bodies assy on engine. Also, this must be done with a lot of care as setting will be wrong if done with TVA still in place -OR- if the throttle do not sit at physical idle stop.

You would also need to clear Motronic memory (15 minutes fuse removal with ignition OFF) before you do the 1st engine run after a change. This will also erase any faults from Motronic memory so you can start fresh for your 1st engine run.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BMW_K1200_Throttle-Position-Sensor TPS (version 1-2).pdf (381.6 KB, 426 views)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by sailor; Jan 14th, 2016 at 1:50 pm.
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post #27 of 38 Old Jan 14th, 2016, 12:36 pm
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
KEVIN, GORDON,

My PDF document (see link below) was mainly designed for those who (1) either do not have a GS911 -OR- (2) need to do more advanced troubleshooting if TPS is intermittent or defective -OR- (3) have messed-up with "tamper-proof" screws with blue paint at wrong time or wrong setting.

Of course the GS911 has an interface to check the "basic" TPS setting at idle stop, HOWEVER the procedure is a bit confusing when you follow their screen prompts. Last year, I did a bit it more "static" tests in garage using GS911 software (version 1411.2 not-beta) and using the VoltMeter method to compare. Found a few useful items like:

(1) Their TPS setting / adjusting interface is bit better than 2 years ago. The only part that is still confusing for novice if the 1st or 2nd screen where you see you are above green and they tell you to move steering to check enough free play in cable - TPS should not increase - that is the main message here.

This part can just be skipped and omitted and you go to next screen where eventually the TVA will be either: set to lowest position by GS911 , or they tell you later to unbolt it temporarily.

(2) If the TVA is pulled out from bracket at wrong time, but still plugged in its connector, the piston goes to end and keeps expecting a higher TPS, but it never happens. This is where an error will be logged in engine faults (description of error is not very clear however). If you remove TVA from bracket ONLY at the requested steps by GS911 then you do not get this error. I suspect they reset something internally OR they are able to set Motronic in a special mode.

(3) If indeed you need to change the TPS position, you have to be VERY CAREFULL as 1 torx screw is hidden and can hardly be reached with air-box and Throttle-bodies assy on engine. Also, this must be done with a lot of care as setting will be wrong if done with TVA still in place -OR- if the throttle do not sit at physical idle stop.

You would also need to clear Motronic memory (15 minutes fuse removal with ignition ON) before you do the 1st engine run after a change. This will also erase any faults from Motronic memory so you can start fresh for your 1st engine run.
Thanks Sailor. That is the document. I just wanted Kevin to be aware of running the GS911 TPS tests that it would read wrong at a certain point if the TVA was not removed and the green red slider would show out of tolerance because the TVA was pushing the TB off hard stop. Some disassemble required

That is an excellent document. I saved it off again.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #28 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 7:54 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi Guys

I connected the GS-911, switched on the ignition as requested, went to the TPS Adjustment section and was given this as the first screen. I started the procedure as it asked and moved the handle bars fully from lock to lock and the graph didn't move and was given this second screen.

I take it this is not good.
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post #29 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 9:06 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by Kevin12T View Post
Hi Guys

I connected the GS-911, switched on the ignition as requested, went to the TPS Adjustment section and was given this as the first screen. I started the procedure as it asked and moved the handle bars fully from lock to lock and the graph didn't move and was given this second screen.

I take it this is not good.

Kevin, I can't get to the Hexcode site to review the documentation but as Sailor mentioned, the instructions are not very clear.

That adjustment is very sensitive and if the TVA is attached, it can push the throttle enough to be completely out of the adjustment range on that screen so what you are seeing is not necessarily bad. Since you can't see the end of the red display bar, you might try removing the TVA and starting over just to see where the TPS is at a dead stop and not resting on the TVA. Don't touch any screws. If you get the end of the display bar somewhere in the screen and not off the right side, then you can do the handlebar check. That test is only to make sure that the throttle position doesn't change as you turn the bars left to right so you don't get an unexpected surge as you go into a corner If it does change, then the routing of the cables should be checked and adjusted so the movement is minimized.

The second screen you posted simply means that the TVA if installed at the time of that test is pushing on the throttle so that it is out of the measurement zone the display is calibrated for you to view. It might be just past the edge but red is red so you can't see any movement one way or the other. Try running the test with the TVA removed just before you hit start. It might give you an error but it will allow you to do the handlebar check to make sure your cables are routed optimally.

Been over a year since I did this and that was the only time i have done it so my memory isn't 100% on this.

My bike is in a state of disassemble right now with no battery or I would go through it again as a refresher.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #30 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 9:44 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

If I understand right does that mean the first screen should have no red in it at all then not even a little bit. And yes the TVA is still connected.
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post #31 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 10:14 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by Kevin12T View Post
If I understand right does that mean the first screen should have no red in it at all then not even a little bit. And yes the TVA is still connected.
If you haven't hit start yet then it may not be measuring anything yet and the red slider bar would just be sitting on the left edge. I don't remember the procedure well enough but you need to be at the point where you are measuring the TPS to tell anything and that looks like the second screen where you would loosen the TPS screws and move it to get the slider bar in-between the 2 marks in the middle but the TVA needs to be removed for that proper adjustment and I am not telling you to move any adjustment screws or to adjust the TPS. Just to remove the TVA so it is not pushing the T off the hard stops.

Try it with the TVA removed but connected at that point and see if you get a different result on the second screen? This test is for setting the TPS value for the throttle body at the hard stop on the screws, not resting on the TVA. It is very easy to mess up the zero point of a throttle body if you start turning screws. We must assume that the TB is set properly and all butterflys in sync and all closed at full close so we don't mess with it.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #32 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 10:17 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Also looking at your first screen shot. If you have clicked start, can you manually turn the throttle and get the slider to move? If so, that might be an indication of the TPS being out of adjustment. If you haven't hit start yet, then it probably isn't measuring yet.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #33 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 10:32 am Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Also looking at your first screen shot. If you have clicked start, can you manually turn the throttle and get the slider to move? If so, that might be an indication of the TPS being out of adjustment. If you haven't hit start yet, then it probably isn't measuring yet.
The first screen is what I get before I click start, As I said previously I did adjust the screw on the TVA so maybe I have adjusted it to far and it's registering at ignition on.

As you say the second screen is probably the TVA because it does operate before you hit start.

I haven't tried moving the throttle to see what happens because the second picture showed the bar to be full so didn't continue on.
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post #34 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 10:57 am
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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The first screen is what I get before I click start, As I said previously I did adjust the screw on the TVA so maybe I have adjusted it to far and it's registering at ignition on.

As you say the second screen is probably the TVA because it does operate before you hit start.

I haven't tried moving the throttle to see what happens because the second picture showed the bar to be full so didn't continue on.
The bar might show full at rest if the TVA is installed but that in itself doesn't indicate a bad adjustment. It is only valid when the TVA is out allowing the TB to return to the hard stop screws that the bar in the second screen will be a reflection of the TPS position at hard stop.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #35 of 38 Old Jan 15th, 2016, 2:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Think i'll have to investigate further with this
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post #36 of 38 Old Jan 30th, 2016, 2:50 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

Hi Guys

An update on my Idle speed saga. I took all the tupperware back off my bike, fuel tank as well. The second picture showed a complete red graph. I know now that this is where the graph should have the green section if your TPS is adjusted right. If it is right the first section will be green from the left side across to the middle. I found this out by loosening off the screw on the TPS I could get to, when I applied finger pressure to bottom of the TPS and pushed up the graph moved away from the full position downwards towards the middle.

So I removed the air filter. The test told me to remove the TVA so I did, undone the the retaining clips from the throttle bodies and removed them enough to get to the other screw holding on the TPS and loosened it as well. I moved the TPS until I got the graph to sit exactly in the centre and it turned green so tightened it back up. Re-fitted and tightened the throttle bodies and re-checked the TPS was still green after snapping the throttle open, and it was.

Restarted the TPS test, it told me to tighten the screws on the TVA and proceed with the test. It told me the TVA was outside the allowable range (which was correct as I adjusted the screw touching the TVA piston as I said in a previous post). I adjusted it back to where it was in the first place , (had the sense to mark it before I moved it) ran the test again, it went through all the cycles again and then told me " TPS is correct ". Put everything back on, changed the air filter as I was there, re-fitted the tank and started her up she fired first time and is sitting perfect on idle.

Checked there was no fault codes stored in the memory..... Job done.

Thanks to everyone for their input very,very much appreciated.

2005 K1200LT Trike Conversion
1995 BMW R850R
1975 Honda CB400/4
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post #37 of 38 Old Jan 30th, 2016, 4:33 pm
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Originally Posted by Kevin12T View Post
Hi Guys

An update on my Idle speed saga. I took all the tupperware back off my bike, fuel tank as well. The second picture showed a complete red graph. I know now that this is where the graph should have the green section if your TPS is adjusted right. If it is right the first section will be green from the left side across to the middle. I found this out by loosening off the screw on the TPS I could get to, when I applied finger pressure to bottom of the TPS and pushed up the graph moved away from the full position downwards towards the middle.

So I removed the air filter. The test told me to remove the TVA so I did, undone the the retaining clips from the throttle bodies and removed them enough to get to the other screw holding on the TPS and loosened it as well. I moved the TPS until I got the graph to sit exactly in the centre and it turned green so tightened it back up. Re-fitted and tightened the throttle bodies and re-checked the TPS was still green after snapping the throttle open, and it was.

Restarted the TPS test, it told me to tighten the screws on the TVA and proceed with the test. It told me the TVA was outside the allowable range (which was correct as I adjusted the screw touching the TVA piston as I said in a previous post). I adjusted it back to where it was in the first place , (had the sense to mark it before I moved it) ran the test again, it went through all the cycles again and then told me " TPS is correct ". Put everything back on, changed the air filter as I was there, re-fitted the tank and started her up she fired first time and is sitting perfect on idle.

Checked there was no fault codes stored in the memory..... Job done.

Thanks to everyone for their input very,very much appreciated.
Good job Kevin. That sounds just about exactly right. I hope your idle issue is now gone as well.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #38 of 38 Old Jan 30th, 2016, 5:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Low Idle Speed

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Good job Kevin. That sounds just about exactly right. I hope your idle issue is now gone as well.
Yes it has gone I've had the bike warmed up until the fans came on and she's idling fine. When she starts up she has a fast idle for a few seconds then settles fine.

Haven't been out on a ride yet,but will do soon.

2005 K1200LT Trike Conversion
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