Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 32 Old Sep 2nd, 2006, 12:51 pm Thread Starter
 
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Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem?

I changed out my rear drive with one I had upgraded to the new 17 ball bearing. I tested the bike afterward. Everything mechanically worked fine.
The speedo did not. It just jumped around from zero to 20.

Emailed David Shealey to seek his wisdom. He gave me a suggestion to test the sensor and it worked. After many hours of deliberation, I gave in and changed the rear drive back to the stock one. Now it works.

Both drives are identical except the newer one has the 17 ball bearing. I checked each mounting hole to be sure the slotted cup on the crown gear that actuates the sensor was in position. Both were fine.

ANY IDEAS?????
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post #2 of 32 Old Sep 2nd, 2006, 2:20 pm
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Sensor

I have not changed the rearend, but I have had trouble twice with the sensor. When I took it to BMW they checked it and it worked fine. On this site people have said that the way that BMW routes the cables actually breaks the wires inside the covering. I tried moving the wire and that was the trouble. After BMW replaced the sensor I took the tie wraps off and routed the wire with plenty of slack where the swing arm moves. I have not had trouble since. Maybe when the dissassembly took place the wire got creased. Just a thought hopefully this helps.

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post #3 of 32 Old Sep 2nd, 2006, 11:20 pm Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Zeke,

Yes, the inductive wire attached near the metal ferrules on the drive causes the insulation to get cut and stretched. I took the entire inductive sensor and wire completely out and examined it for insulation gaps etc. Completely intact.
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post #4 of 32 Old Sep 3rd, 2006, 2:37 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
Both drives are identical except the newer one has the 17 ball bearing. I checked each mounting hole to be sure the slotted cup on the crown gear that actuates the sensor was in position. Both were fine.

ANY IDEAS?????
Next thing I'd look at is the depth from the sensor flange to the exciter with a depth gage (or its shade-tree equivalent, a rod and something to mark it with ) The facts that the needle is bouncing and you verified sensor wire continuity sez to me that the sensor may be *right at* the maximum allowable gap range, so you're only getting the occassional pulse picked up at the sensor.

If there is a significant depth difference between the two drives, you'll know what your target depth is. If you're lucky, you'll find a shim or two under the head of the sensor you can take out. Otherwise it will be a dive into the drive to reset depth.

Mark Neblett
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post #5 of 32 Old Sep 3rd, 2006, 10:52 pm Thread Starter
 
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Mark,
That was kinda what I suspected in regards to the depth. The sensor from the original drive didn't have any shims. Are you saying that the "exciter/slotted cup" can be re set for a more shallow depth?

Where in the LT service manual CD/PDF does it describe the "exciter/slotted cup" that the inductive sensor reads? I see it in the cutaway diagram, but not in the take apart.

Last edited by hoodoodrum; Sep 3rd, 2006 at 11:09 pm.
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post #6 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 12:32 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
Mark,
That was kinda what I suspected in regards to the depth. The sensor from the original drive didn't have any shims. Are you saying that the "exciter/slotted cup" can be re set for a more shallow depth?

Where in the LT service manual CD/PDF does it describe the "exciter/slotted cup" that the inductive sensor reads? I see it in the cutaway diagram, but not in the take apart.
I'm afraid my words may have been misleading -- the "exciter" for the older speedo drive is the crown gear itself; its teeth are the equivalent of the teeth on the ABS exciter rings. The depth can be altered, but only with major work -- i.e., using a smaller shim outboard of the crown gear carrier, a thicker housing shim (both together moving the crown gear closer to the sensor), moves which in turn require resetting the pinion depth. Personally, I wouldn't go to all that trouble, at least not before pursuing other issues, such as first determining whether the sensor gap is different between the drives to see if you're on the right track.

One additional thought -- where did the new drive come from? Is it possible that the crown gear is from an '02 or later bike? Just speculating here, but since the '02-on bikes no longer use the crown gear for speed sensing, maybe it is somehow different than pre-'02 gears in a way that results in less of a signal to the sensor (different, less ferrous material with a lower magnetic signature?? different gear tooth profile (e.g., smaller tooth tips)?? dunno -- just thinking out loud).

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post #7 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 8:33 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
I'm afraid my words may have been misleading -- the "exciter" for the older speedo drive is the crown gear itself; its teeth are the equivalent of the teeth on the ABS exciter rings. The depth can be altered, but only with major work -- i.e., using a smaller shim outboard of the crown gear carrier, a thicker housing shim (both together moving the crown gear closer to the sensor), moves which in turn require resetting the pinion depth. Personally, I wouldn't go to all that trouble, at least not before pursuing other issues, such as first determining whether the sensor gap is different between the drives to see if you're on the right track.

One additional thought -- where did the new drive come from? Is it possible that the crown gear is from an '02 or later bike? Just speculating here, but since the '02-on bikes no longer use the crown gear for speed sensing, maybe it is somehow different than pre-'02 gears in a way that results in less of a signal to the sensor (different, less ferrous material with a lower magnetic signature?? different gear tooth profile (e.g., smaller tooth tips)?? dunno -- just thinking out loud).
Mark, this is the first time I ever saw you make a mistake! The pre-'02 LTs have a slotted "cup" pressed onto the rear of the crown gear. It has a few large slots cut into it axially, and that is what the speed sensor reads. The only way to change the distance from it to the sensor is to shim the sensor up, or machine the sensor seating surface on the housing down. I have never seen shims on one, and there is no mention of adjusting the depth of it in the service manual.

I think there is something wrong with the cup on his bike, either bent, or loose from the crown gear.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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post #8 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 10:23 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Mark, this is the first time I ever saw you make a mistake! The pre-'02 LTs have a slotted "cup" pressed onto the rear of the crown gear. It has a few large slots cut into it axially, and that is what the speed sensor reads. The only way to change the distance from it to the sensor is to shim the sensor up, or machine the sensor seating surface on the housing down. I have never seen shims on one, and there is no mention of adjusting the depth of it in the service manual.

I think there is something wrong with the cup on his bike, either bent, or loose from the crown gear.
Thanks for the catch, David! I've never seen the slotted cup (only been inside the '02-on final drives), and it's not shown in the Repair Manual; that's what I get for assuming what the "obvious" mechanism must be. As to shimming, the only way I can see moving the exciter would be to move the entire crown gear toward the sensor with the inner and outer shims, which also would require adjusting the pinion depth and changing (probably undesirably) the pinion crown gear tooth engagement pattern. Obviously, with the additional info you provided, the next step is clear -- open it up and check the ring!

Mark Neblett
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post #9 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 12:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
Thanks for the catch, David! I've never seen the slotted cup (only been inside the '02-on final drives), and it's not shown in the Repair Manual; that's what I get for assuming what the "obvious" mechanism must be. As to shimming, the only way I can see moving the exciter would be to move the entire crown gear toward the sensor with the inner and outer shims, which also would require adjusting the pinion depth and changing (probably undesirably) the pinion crown gear tooth engagement pattern. Obviously, with the additional info you provided, the next step is clear -- open it up and check the ring!
Shimming the crown gear will have no affect on the sensor to ring spacing, as the sensor is mounted radially to the ring, which has axial slots.
See item 2 in picture for the ring.
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post #10 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 3:27 pm
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Although I'd guess rather rare, it appears that it can happen. The last one I opened up had its ring off of its "perch". Didn't fit as tightly as it should. Cannot offer any resultant (is that a word?) symptoms beings the drive was purchased as a spare with unknown history.

FWIW If you remove the speedo sensor and look down the hole with the help of a small Mag Light or such, the ring is plainly visible.

Good Luck
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Duane

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and 7 long gone

Last edited by Dman; Sep 4th, 2006 at 3:31 pm. Reason: Might help if I'd post a picture!
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post #11 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 3:42 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman
Although I'd guess rather rare, it appears that it can happen. The last one I opened up had its ring off of its "perch". Didn't fit as tightly as it should. Cannot offer any resultant (is that a word?) symptoms beings the drive was purchased as a spare with unknown history.

FWIW If you remove the speedo sensor and look down the hole with the help of a small Mag Light or such, the ring is plainly visible.

Good Luck
First I have ever heard of one of these coming off the gear. That is running in first place as Tim's problem too. Now we know it is possible for that ring to come off the gear.

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post #12 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 6:12 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Shimming the crown gear will have no affect on the sensor to ring spacing, as the sensor is mounted radially to the ring, which has axial slots.
Dang -- wrong twice in a row! Guess I'll just hush up on this one for a while

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post #13 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 6:57 pm Thread Starter
 
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Here it is...

Check this out. Took the drive apart (that's Red Line Shock Proof Gear Lube, not blood). The slotted cup IS NOT affixed to the crown gear as the second picture shows with the screwdriver tip holding the cup away from the shoulder. IS THIS CORRECT??? If so, the cup was slipping and not spinning on the crown gear thus NOT registering with the inductive sensor.
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post #14 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 9:22 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
Check this out. Took the drive apart (that's Red Line Shock Proof Gear Lube, not blood). The slotted cup IS NOT affixed to the crown gear as the second picture shows with the screwdriver tip holding the cup away from the shoulder. IS THIS CORRECT??? If so, the cup was slipping and not spinning on the crown gear thus NOT registering with the inductive sensor.
Definitely wrong! The cup is supposed to be press fit onto the shoulder of the crown gear. That is two pictures now of them coming loose, the first time I have ever heard of that, and now we have two different pictures of that in one day!

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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post #15 of 32 Old Sep 4th, 2006, 10:28 pm Thread Starter
 
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David,
Do you have any ideas on how to "affix" the slotted ring to the crown gear? The ring is steel and the crown spindle is aluminum.
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post #16 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 12:29 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
David,
Do you have any ideas on how to "affix" the slotted ring to the crown gear? The ring is steel and the crown spindle is aluminum.
I don't think any part of the crown gear is aluminum. Pretty sure it is one solid steel part. Try a magnet on it.

If the ring is not "loose" on the shoulder of the ring gear, I would clean it good and use high strength Loctite on it when you press it back on.

An alternative is a few very small TIG weld spots around the periphery. Not enough to heat anything up, just to retain the ring.

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David Shealey
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post #17 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 10:53 am Thread Starter
 
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I checked the spindle with a magnet and it's aluminum. The gear and spindle end where the tapered bearing is affixed are steel.
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post #18 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 5:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
I checked the spindle with a magnet and it's aluminum. The gear and spindle end where the tapered bearing is affixed are steel.
Tim,
You had me on that one too.
David,
Next time you get close to one of these drives with the wheel / tire removed, look into one of the lug bolt holes. You won't believe it.

What I did to fix and didn't remove the bearing:
Clean, clean, clean.
Used a center punch and put about a dozen "equally spaced" punch marks around the circumference of the step. (Kinda knurled the surface.)
Used the Loctite cleaner/primer on the surfaces and applied some Loctite Sleeve Retainer. (Cause it's what I had handy)
Used a 1/4" punch and a small hammer and gently worked the sensor ring to the shoulder. (Took about 30seconds.)
The Loctite set up like glass. Should stay put.

YMMV and interested in how you fix yours.
Good Luck!

Duane

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post #19 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 6:33 pm Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Dman and David S.

I took my crown gear to a first class engine machine shop today. The technician looked at it and it's application/environment within the rear drive. He suggested that since we were dealing with an aluminum spindle and a steel slotted ring/cup it would be best to drill two holes opposite sides and fit them with very small slotted dowel pins and loctite. He said it has worked in similar applications with racing engines. When I have the finished crown gear in hand, I'll post pictures.
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post #20 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 7:11 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
I checked the spindle with a magnet and it's aluminum. The gear and spindle end where the tapered bearing is affixed are steel.
That is amazing! Is it an aluminum sleeve on the axle just for the speed sensor ring? Just how much of the assembly is aluminum? I know the wheel hub and crown gear are steel, and the end where the inside bearing is pressed on, just cannot picture where aluminum comes into the picture.

I and one of these drives apart, and removed the main bearing, but did not look closely at the other side of the gear.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #21 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 9:26 pm
 
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Wallley

I recently read the following, and have no idea if it will be of any help to You. Maybe it will stimulate someones thought process. Hope it helps!
----------------
Description


NEW BMW K1200 LT Differential and Brake Rotor. This is a second generation (2002-2006) final drive that came off a NEW 2006BMW with 2,000 miles on it that was triked. The owner just bought the bike and rode it down from Canada to get a trike. THESE GO FOR AT LEAST $1000 RETAIL. The differential is in excellent shape. The finish has NO scratches or dings...These BMW differentials seem to be pretty soft and can easily be knicked or scuffed so be careful when you are mounting. Rotor is in excellent shape as well. I have had buyers say they could use these on the first generation BMW if modified but others say it can not be done without losing the speedometer and maybe the ABS. I am not sure how they did it and can not offer advice on 1999-2001 BMW's. If you have a 2002-2006 there are no problems. You can check out BMW K1200LT websight forums to get some opinions
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post #22 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 9:32 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
That is amazing! Is it an aluminum sleeve on the axle just for the speed sensor ring? Just how much of the assembly is aluminum? I know the wheel hub and crown gear are steel, and the end where the inside bearing is pressed on, just cannot picture where aluminum comes into the picture.

I and one of these drives apart, and removed the main bearing, but did not look closely at the other side of the gear.
David,
I spent time in the parts washer with three of these and didn't know. Good catch Tim!

Look at this picture and then study the ones Tim and I posted earlier. (Tim's picture has very good color contrast. Must be the "blood" ) The "cone" shaped piece is pressed into the crown gear "cup" and is, as Tim tells us, Aluminum. The material seen through the lug bolt holes scratches very easily. (Assume?) Drop a magnet into the center lug hole and will find it is hollow to the tapered bearing journal and will not stick to anything inside.

Guess they were trying to save a little weight?
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Duane

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01 LT Champagne "The Starship"
73 Z1 Kawi
and 7 long gone

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post #23 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 9:43 pm
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And another thought.........

After staring at the picture it occurred to me that the service manual warning about using lug bolts of the correct length is quite important. If too long a bolt were used it could possibly "jack" the hub apart. Talk about bearing preload!

Duane

Check the obvious first!
01 LT Champagne "The Starship"
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post #24 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 10:31 pm Thread Starter
 
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Wink

"The plot thickens"!!!!

I hope to god they find solid earth when my spindle gets drilled tomorrow. I detected aluminum for sure, BUT hollow like in cast aluminum...oh boy!!!!

Really makes me wonder just how and why the drives are failing. Is it really the bearing or another part in the drive with an inherent weakness that puts unreasonable strain on the bearing. Time will tell when the next generation LT debuts to see how they re-engineered a single sided paralever drive that supports a 850# bike plus two adults and luggage.
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post #25 of 32 Old Sep 14th, 2006, 2:29 pm Thread Starter
 
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New pictures

Here is pics of the screw that was threaded into my slotted ring to hold it on.
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post #26 of 32 Old Sep 14th, 2006, 2:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
Here is pics of the screw that was threaded into my slotted ring to hold it on.
Just making a SWAG here (SCIENTIFIC Wild Assed Guess), but thinking that the aluminum piece is put on for the sole purpose of supporting the speed sensor ring. Cannot see any other purpose for it.

Does anyone know if the gear sets for BMW bikes without the speed sensor have the aluminum part on the crown gear?

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #27 of 32 Old Sep 14th, 2006, 9:29 pm Thread Starter
 
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David,

I tested the rear drive with the slotted ring now affixed and it works fine. I had to grind the screw head down maybe 1 millimeter more (than the pictures above show) so it wouldn't hit the inductive sensor tip. Attached a deep socket on the end of my power drill and spun the input bevel pinion to check the sensor sensitivity. Worked great!!

Per your post above, I wonder the same about the spindle being aluminum.
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post #28 of 32 Old Feb 4th, 2014, 3:01 am
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Re: Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem?

Hi chaps,

I am having the same problem with the speedo ring on the crown wheel. Can I take the wheel off, rear caliper and disc, then strip out the crown wheel while the diff is still attached to the bike. Or is it diff off. Thanks
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post #29 of 32 Old Feb 4th, 2014, 10:13 pm
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Re: Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem?

Yes you can pull the drive apart ON the bike and fix your errant encoder ring.

John
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post #30 of 32 Old Feb 5th, 2014, 3:11 pm
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Re: Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem?

I can confirm that my '05 FD crown gear carrier has the aluminium component as part of the assembly, and of course, no speed sensor ring. There has also been previous postings regarding oil leakage from the FD unit via the centre wheel lug hole. This has been due to the aluminium component coming loose on the steel boss. No-one has been able to explain the logic behind the use of aluminium to make a 3-part crown gear carrier, which in this case also has the potential to come loose. A wonder no-one has re-engineered this part from a single piece of steel shaft. Grade K4140 would suffice, and some other failure modes such as loose tapered roller bearing inner raceways could be corrected in the process.

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post #31 of 32 Old Feb 5th, 2014, 7:00 pm
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Re: Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem?

Dennis I believe the reason was so the coefficient of expansion of the ring gear assy would more closely match that of the aluminum housing. This would minimize changes in preload of the tapered bearing due to heat.

On 05 and up check your taper bearing for a tight fit on that aluminum part any time you have it apart. Mine came loose and wore 0.5 mm of aluminum off of it.

John
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post #32 of 32 Old Feb 5th, 2014, 8:12 pm
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Re: Inductive speed sensor on Rear drive problem?

Agreed John, it's possible that is the reason,..... but it is also possible that the differing thermal expansion rates between the aluminium and steel components are the reason for the (radial) looseness we have seen posted here when oil leakage was discovered through the centre wheel bolt hole. Obviously there is also a substantial weight saving to be made by using the aluminium for the majority of the crown carrier, but as with all engineering solutions there is a trade-off. However, the total unsprung mass of the combined rear wheel and FD components can be reduced by around 3 Kg (6.6 lbs) simply by installing the BS BT020 vs the ME880 tyre. I personally think a steel crown carrier could be manufactured from 1 piece of steel, bored out in the centre to remove some metal (weight) and sacrificing the centre wheel bolt. Intersting to see if anyone would ever go that way. Yes, I will be checking my tapered roller bearing for tightness soon when I dismantle the FD to fix the creeping pinion needle roller inner raceway. Too many quality faults on these FD units I'm afraid. Nothing that can't be overcome, but they should not exist in this day and age.

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1988 K100RT (the pack horse)
2005 K1200LTE Light yellow metallic
K100Dennis is offline  
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