Slave Cylinder Drilling Procedure??? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 32 Old Aug 29th, 2006, 9:03 pm Thread Starter
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Slave Cylinder Drilling Procedure???

I'm just doing some prep. work for our upcoming tech. session and have been reviewing the old threads. There has been quite a bit of discussion about documenting this procedure - step by step but I haven't seen it posted anywhere. If it has been posted can someone point me in the right direction?

From the service manual there are several steps to removing the slave cylinder. Are all of these steps necessary? It seems to me that the manual normally makes things a little more complicated than necessary. Where are the short cuts?

1. Remove left fairing section, battery cover and spoiler.
2. Remove right and left front and rear footrest plates.
3. Remove the exhaust system.
4. Remove rear caliper and inductive sensor.
5. Remove rear wheel.
6. Remove rear wheel drive unit.
7. Remove Swing Arm.

I know that steps 4, 5, 6 and 7 are necessary but what about the first three?

Thanks for your help.
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #2 of 32 Old Aug 29th, 2006, 9:21 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
I'm just doing some prep. work for our upcoming tech. session and have been reviewing the old threads. There has been quite a bit of discussion about documenting this procedure - step by step but I haven't seen it posted anywhere. If it has been posted can someone point me in the right direction?

From the service manual there are several steps to removing the slave cylinder. Are all of these steps necessary? It seems to me that the manual normally makes things a little more complicated than necessary. Where are the short cuts?

1. Remove left fairing section, battery cover and spoiler.
2. Remove right and left front and rear footrest plates.
3. Remove the exhaust system.
4. Remove rear caliper and inductive sensor.
5. Remove rear wheel.
6. Remove rear wheel drive unit.
7. Remove Swing Arm.

I know that steps 4, 5, 6 and 7 are necessary but what about the first three?

Thanks for your help.
Kevin
We have done 4 or 5 now without doing the first three steps. It takes a little patience and finagling to get the swing arm out, but the time is far less than doing everything you have to do to get the exhaust system out.

You do remove the right side fairing piece in front of the right side case to get to the bottom rear shock bolt easier.

Hopefully you won't run into an EXTREMELY tight swing arm pivot bolt, which has happened on two occasions. Usually they are tight, but do pop loose with a 1/2" pull handle on a 30 MM socket. We have had two REALLY tight ones though, Ken had one on Coni's bike, and we had one on a bike here in SoCal. Took a 4 foot pipe on a 1/2" pull handle, thougt we were going to break the pull handle, but it finally let go with a BANG.

If you have a source to borrow one, get a 3/4 drive pull handle and socket.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #3 of 32 Old Aug 29th, 2006, 11:00 pm
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As Dave noted, steps 1-3 are not required. I did remove the exhaust for one bike and it was a lot easier to get the swing arm out. It did mean a little extra work and there is always the risk of breaking or stripping a header bolt which could turn a simple job into a PITA.
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post #4 of 32 Old Aug 30th, 2006, 12:56 am
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David and Michael have you covered. I have two more comments though.

On Coni's bike, the swingarm bolts were previously put on with generous use of red loctite. We actually stripped the threads getting one loose, and had to replace the pivot bolt and have the swingarm retapped by a local dealer. It could easily have left her bike disabled until a new swingarm was ordered.

Also, you don't have to remove the exhaust, but it does help to remove one of the bolts (from the left footrest plate, I think). You'll see it as the one bolt that is in the way when you try to get the swingarm out. On the way out, you can pull the whole drive shaft, then rotate the swingarm out right (longer) side first. On the way back in, it is difficult to get the driveshaft fully seated with the swingarm in place. We ended up putting the swingarm mostly into place (shorter side first), then sliding the driveshaft in and grabbing the front u-joint with a couple of fingers to guide it onto the tranny output shaft. Once it is lined up, give it a good whack with a soft mallet or a block of wood and be sure it seats fully onto the tranny shaft and that you feel the front snap ring click into place on the shaft. If you don't feel it click into place, the driveshaft will work its way loose, and can easily damage itself and the tranny shaft as it slips backwards while under power. After it is fully seated, then rotate the swingarm into place and secure it with its pivot bolts.

Hopefully, the manual and previous pics will help explain what I'm referring to, as will direct experience once you get everything apart.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

Ken
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post #5 of 32 Old Aug 30th, 2006, 9:23 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
--------------On Coni's bike, the swingarm bolts were previously put on with generous use of red loctite. -------------------.
That is a good reminder. DO NOT use Loctite on the swing arm and final drive pivot parts! Seems that some severely misguided BMW mechanics insist on using Loctite on everything. The service manual does not specify Loctite on these parts, and it should not be used. If it was used previously, not only is there a danger of stripping something, the Loctite has to be completely removed from the housing and pivot studs in order to get the proper light torque setting on the pivots before tightening the locking ring. You have to be able to spin the pivots in with two fingers, or you cannot get a correct torque reading.

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post #6 of 32 Old Aug 30th, 2006, 11:40 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
That is a good reminder. DO NOT use Loctite on the swing arm and final drive pivot parts! Seems that some severely misguided BMW mechanics insist on using Loctite on everything. The service manual does not specify Loctite on these parts, and it should not be used. If it was used previously, not only is there a danger of stripping something, the Loctite has to be completely removed from the housing and pivot studs in order to get the proper light torque setting on the pivots before tightening the locking ring. You have to be able to spin the pivots in with two fingers, or you cannot get a correct torque reading.
Not only is loctite not specified, it flat is not neccessary. The last slave I helped with we needed to loosen up the swing arm when we noticed the flexible boot was not fully seated and couldn't get at it. We had properly torqued the pivots and were surprized how hard it was to loosen them. In fact, there is a warning in the manual that mentions the possibility of very high torque to break them loose. They stay put by design without the help of loctite.
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post #7 of 32 Old Aug 30th, 2006, 6:03 pm
 
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One extra caution; Do NOT try to use a 12 point socket. You need a 6 point Impact socket or the socket will break, stipping the cornres on the pivot hex.
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post #8 of 32 Old Aug 30th, 2006, 7:29 pm
 
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I did find it helpful to warm up the swing arm studs that were "hard to break" by heating them with a propane torch on LOW FLAME.
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post #9 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 9:52 am Thread Starter
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I noticed that after removing the swing arm the manual says to siphon off the clutch fluid.

1. What is the correct procedure for doing this and how much fluid do we need to siphon off? Do we empty the system?

2. The manual also states to drain the final drive before removing it. Is this necessary?

3. What is the Optimoly MP3 used for coating the splines? Do I need to pick this up at the BMW dealer?

4. Also it says to coat the inner and outer sealing surfaces of the flexible gaiter with Staburags NBU 30 PTM. What should I use here?

Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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Last edited by kevincook; Sep 5th, 2006 at 10:01 am.
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post #10 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 10:54 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
I noticed that after removing the swing arm the manual says to siphon off the clutch fluid.

1. What is the correct procedure for doing this and how much fluid do we need to siphon off? Do we empty the system?
It is best to siphon out the fluid from the master cylinder, and have paper towels or something to catch the fluid that will come out of the line when you disconnect it from the slave cylinder.
Quote:
2. The manual also states to drain the final drive before removing it. Is this necessary?
I have never done that, just be sure you keep the unit relatively upright, such as placing it in a small cardboard box or something to keep if from turning over and spilling oil out the vent.
Quote:
3. What is the Optimoly MP3 used for coating the splines? Do I need to pick this up at the BMW dealer?
BMW is selling a new lube now, and this is what we have used in the last few tech parties here in CA.
http://ascycles.com/detail.aspx?ID=2657
Quote:
4. Also it says to coat the inner and outer sealing surfaces of the flexible gaiter with Staburags NBU 30 PTM. What should I use here?
I have never put anything on them.
Quote:
Thanks,
Kevin

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post #11 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 11:16 am Thread Starter
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Thanks David,

If someone isn't going to replace the slave cylinder do we need to disconnect the pressure line in order to get the slave cylinder out or is there enough slack in the line to leave it connected?

Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #12 of 32 Old Sep 5th, 2006, 3:34 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
Thanks David,

If someone isn't going to replace the slave cylinder do we need to disconnect the pressure line in order to get the slave cylinder out or is there enough slack in the line to leave it connected?

Kevin
Pretty sure there is enough slack in the lines. That would certainly save some time and effort, not to mention a little mess.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #13 of 32 Old Sep 6th, 2006, 8:56 pm Thread Starter
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OK, I ended up getting started on this project a little early. I'm considering it homework for our upcoming tech session, that and I noticed that my clutch fluid was a little low yesterday and I'm afraid to ride until I have investigated the problem.

I started tearing the bike down and managed to get to the point of removing the swing arm in just 45 minutes. Pretty straight forward.

The problem is that I can't get the swing arm out. There is a small "threaded insert" that is behind the left footplate that is in the way. I either have to drop the exhaust down which everyone says isn't needed. It looks like if I disconnect the driveshaft I can swing the driveshaft and swingharm out together. I can't figure out how to remove the driveshaft from the transmission. I'm assuming there is a clip somewhere but I can't see it.

What am I doing wrong?

P.S. it looks like I actually have enough room to remove the slave cylinder with the swing arm just pulled back but if it is going to come out easy from here then I'd prefer to do that.

Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #14 of 32 Old Sep 6th, 2006, 10:30 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
OK, I ended up getting started on this project a little early. I'm considering it homework for our upcoming tech session, that and I noticed that my clutch fluid was a little low yesterday and I'm afraid to ride until I have investigated the problem.

I started tearing the bike down and managed to get to the point of removing the swing arm in just 45 minutes. Pretty straight forward.

The problem is that I can't get the swing arm out. There is a small "threaded insert" that is behind the left footplate that is in the way. I either have to drop the exhaust down which everyone says isn't needed. It looks like if I disconnect the driveshaft I can swing the driveshaft and swingharm out together. I can't figure out how to remove the driveshaft from the transmission. I'm assuming there is a clip somewhere but I can't see it.

What am I doing wrong?

P.S. it looks like I actually have enough room to remove the slave cylinder with the swing arm just pulled back but if it is going to come out easy from here then I'd prefer to do that.

Thanks,
Kevin
You can get a screwdriver into the universal at the rear of the tranny and pry the joint off the splines of the tranny output shaft. There is a "circlip" spring wire that snaps into a groove to keep the shaft from "floating" to the rear, and when you re-assemble (reverse of removal, put the swing arm part way in, put the drive shaft through it) you have to insure you have popped the drive shaft fully forward so that the spring ring has snapped back into it's groove. Then finish installing the swingarm.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #15 of 32 Old Sep 7th, 2006, 6:31 am Thread Starter
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Thanks David.

I went out to the garage this morning before I left for work and tried as you suggested. The shaft came right off and the swing arm slid right out.

I'll drill the hole this afternoon and reassemble the bike.

Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #16 of 32 Old Sep 7th, 2006, 11:24 pm
 
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OK. Here's another guy fully into this mess. Except I've got to replace a pressure line as well so I have to thread it from the front on back. Anyway, I've got everything apart except the right side swingarm 30mm nut. The left one came right out, but the right side is a bugger. I have the little snap rings out, but I noticed that there are 2 small holes drilled in the right nut, but not the left. Am I supposed to do anything in there to free this thing up before trying to remove it?
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post #17 of 32 Old Sep 7th, 2006, 11:54 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
Thanks David,

If someone isn't going to replace the slave cylinder do we need to disconnect the pressure line in order to get the slave cylinder out or is there enough slack in the line to leave it connected?

Kevin
The lines are indeed long enough to remove the cylinder without removing them. I have tried reattached the lines before installing the cylinder just to make it a little easier to start the threads before tucking the little sucker into tranny. Worked fine (undecided whether it made the connection any easier but certainly long enough to make it possible).
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post #18 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 1:12 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofitel505
OK. Here's another guy fully into this mess. Except I've got to replace a pressure line as well so I have to thread it from the front on back. Anyway, I've got everything apart except the right side swingarm 30mm nut. The left one came right out, but the right side is a bugger. I have the little snap rings out, but I noticed that there are 2 small holes drilled in the right nut, but not the left. Am I supposed to do anything in there to free this thing up before trying to remove it?
No. Seems some have been overtightened, or a previous removal had someone put Loctite on it. Maybe heat the aluminum around the outside of the nut a little with a heat gun, or very carefully with a propane torch. Get it hot to the touch, but not so hot it burns you. If there is Loctite there (not supposed to be) that will loosen it.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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post #19 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 2:26 am
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They dealer mechanic who did my clutch last week carefully explained to me that the swingarm threads were damaged from the pivot bolt being overtightened, and how there was no Loctite on the bolt either. He assured me that he put it together properly, using Loctite, of course. It was too late, so I let it go and just rode away.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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post #20 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 5:50 am Thread Starter
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I'm in a holding pattern until after work today. I'm waiting for my buddy to finish machining the 30mm socket for me.

My slave cylinder was leaking and my new one arrived last night via UPS at 6pm. When I removed the old cylinder the fluid that drained out of the lines was a clear yellow. I was expecting red brake fluid. What is the yellow fluid? Is that a special BMW brake fluid?

So if I know that my slave cylinder was leaking but my clutch hasn't started slipping yet what does that mean? Will the clutch start slipping eventually or did I catch it in time? There was a little pool of fluid in the mounting boss when I removed the cylinder.

Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #21 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 5:56 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofitel505
OK. Here's another guy fully into this mess. Except I've got to replace a pressure line as well so I have to thread it from the front on back. Anyway, I've got everything apart except the right side swingarm 30mm nut. The left one came right out, but the right side is a bugger. I have the little snap rings out, but I noticed that there are 2 small holes drilled in the right nut, but not the left. Am I supposed to do anything in there to free this thing up before trying to remove it?
Did you put a 4 foot long pipe on your breaker bar for more leverage? I had to do that on mine. They popped loose with a loud bang and then unthreaded easily by hand the rest of the way. There was no locktite any of my parts.

Good Luck,
Kevin

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post #22 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 6:59 am
 
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OK. Thanks for the replies. Looks like they probably did Loctite the thing. I'll try the propane torch trick first, then the 4" pipe. They did the warantee replacement of the entire rear drive, but I don't think they would have to remove the swing arm, only the rear section. So I dont know who would have ever needed to get at that nut. None of my service records from the prior owner show anything of the sort.

Last edited by Sofitel505; Sep 8th, 2006 at 7:25 am.
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post #23 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 9:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
I'm in a holding pattern until after work today. I'm waiting for my buddy to finish machining the 30mm socket for me.

My slave cylinder was leaking and my new one arrived last night via UPS at 6pm. When I removed the old cylinder the fluid that drained out of the lines was a clear yellow. I was expecting red brake fluid. What is the yellow fluid? Is that a special BMW brake fluid?

So if I know that my slave cylinder was leaking but my clutch hasn't started slipping yet what does that mean? Will the clutch start slipping eventually or did I catch it in time? There was a little pool of fluid in the mounting boss when I removed the cylinder.

Thanks,
Kevin
I don't think I have ever seen RED brake fluid. Clear/Amber is the normal color. They dye the silicone DOT 5 Purple to identify it, since it cannot be mixed with any other type.

You likely have caught it before the clutch was damaged. If the fluid has not built up high enough to be forced down the shaft into the clutch you are OK.

Pull out the clutch actuation rod (sometimes takes a pretty hard pull to pop it loose). If it is dry on the end toward the clutch you are fine.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #24 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 9:22 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
----------He assured me that he put it together properly, using Loctite, of course. It was too late, so I let it go and just rode away.
It really upsets me that the "trained" mechanics cannot be bothered to actually follow the documented service procedures.

In my opinion, there are probably less than 10% of the dealer mechanics out there who I would trust to ever touch my bike. The overwhelming difficulty is actually finding one of them. Not just BMW either, that goes for every vehicle manufacturer on the planet. So many mechanics needed, so few who ever actually have a clue.

Sure glad I do my own work. At least if I do something wrong I know it and can either live with it or correct it immediately. So many riders suffer later from inept mechanics passing on their mistakes.

You will likely be riding another bike before your swing arm has to come out again, but the next person to do it will be cursing that mechanic when the innaapropriately used Loctite raises it's ugly head.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #25 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 9:30 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
I don't think I have ever seen RED brake fluid. Clear/Amber is the normal color.
Your right, I don't know what I was thinking about regarding the color.


If I pull out the clutch actuation rod does it just snap back into place the same way?


Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #26 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 11:10 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
Your right, I don't know what I was thinking about regarding the color.


If I pull out the clutch actuation rod does it just snap back into place the same way?


Thanks,
Kevin
Yes, just push it back in. The toughest part is getting the felt to stay put as it slides in.
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post #27 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 12:33 pm
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Once again David, you nailed it. The only reason someone else did this job is because I currently have more work lined up than free time. The bike runs just fine, but they did screw up a couple of minor cosmetic things. Oh well at least I can ride it again without having to conserve momentum just to pass slow cages.

Ken
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'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #28 of 32 Old Sep 8th, 2006, 11:32 pm Thread Starter
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Location: Tully (near Syracuse), NY, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Pull out the clutch actuation rod (sometimes takes a pretty hard pull to pop it loose). If it is dry on the end toward the clutch you are fine.

It must be my lucky day. I pulled the actuation rod out before I reassembled the bike. It was dry as a bone.

I just have to bleed the clutch in the morning and then take it for a ride.

Thanks for the help!
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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Slave Cylinder Procedure->
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post #29 of 32 Old Sep 9th, 2006, 7:03 pm Thread Starter
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OK, I've finished everything but the clutch isn't working properly. It doesn't fully disengage. When I pull in the clutch lever it is nearly all the way to the grip before it starts to disengage and it never fully disengages.

What did I do wrong? Did I not bleed the clutch correctly. I removed the filling adapter and put a speedbleeder in the end of the line, pumped about 1 pint through the system and then removed the bleeder and reinstalled the adapter and grub screw.

What else could it be?

Just before I noticed the low level of clutch fluid and decided to replace the slave cylinder immediately I noticed that the friction zone for the clutch was almost all the way out, i.e. as soon as I started to pull the lever the clutch would start to disengage and then it would be fully disengaged very quickly.

Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #30 of 32 Old Sep 9th, 2006, 7:15 pm
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Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincook
OK, I've finished everything but the clutch isn't working properly. It doesn't fully disengage. When I pull in the clutch lever it is nearly all the way to the grip before it starts to disengage and it never fully disengages.

What did I do wrong? Did I not bleed the clutch correctly. I removed the filling adapter and put a speedbleeder in the end of the line, pumped about 1 pint through the system and then removed the bleeder and reinstalled the adapter and grub screw.

What else could it be?

Just before I noticed the low level of clutch fluid and decided to replace the slave cylinder immediately I noticed that the friction zone for the clutch was almost all the way out, i.e. as soon as I started to pull the lever the clutch would start to disengage and then it would be fully disengaged very quickly.

Thanks,
Kevin
That is strange. We have done several, and never had that problem. If you pumped a pint thorough, it is WELL bled. I think the entire clutch system only holds about 1/4 pint.

Question: Are you sure you put the actuation rod back in in the correct orientation? Just trying to think of anything that could cause the problem you are having, and a reversed actuation rod MAY do that. if it worked the clutch at all. The long turned down end goes to the clutch, the short one to the slave cylinder.

I'm not sure you could even re-install the slave cylinder though if the rod were reversed, the short end would bottom out on the clutch diaphragm spring and make the rear of the rod stick out way too far.

How did you bleed the clutch, pumping the lever, or vacuum? Either works though. I have never used a speed bleeder, so not sure what could be different when using one of those.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #31 of 32 Old Sep 9th, 2006, 7:22 pm Thread Starter
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Thanks David,

The acutuation rod only goes in one way. As you said if you try to put it in backwards it sticks out too far to install the slave cylinder.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Thanks,
Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #32 of 32 Old Sep 9th, 2006, 10:50 pm Thread Starter
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I thought I'd post and let everyone know that I figured out what the problem was. I had the fluid at the level specified in the manual, however, the level was always higher than that before. I added some more fluid and the clutch would work if I pumped the lever 5-6 times. This was better than before I added the fluid. I thought there might be some air in the lines since I had to pump the lever so much so I bled the system again.

While I was at it I decided to put the speed bleeders on the brakes and bleed them also. I also changed the oil and then went for a test drive. Everything seems to be working perfectly now.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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