Miss & milage - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 2:17 pm Thread Starter
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Miss & milage

I seem to have a mysterious engine miss that has dropped my fuel milage down in to the mid thirties.

I have checked the valves, replaced the plugs and replaced the O2 sensor.
I regularly use injector cleaning, ethanol trapping fuel additives (Amsoil).

I do not see any visible damage to the plug wires, but have not run it in the dark to check for leakage.

Having missed last years riding due to a blown knee & subsequent replacement and knowing the other one will probably get done this winter, I really don't want to have to keep the LT down for more than a few hours this season.

I could really use some guru advice.
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post #2 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 3:18 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
I seem to have a mysterious engine miss that has dropped my fuel milage down in to the mid thirties.

I have checked the valves, replaced the plugs and replaced the O2 sensor.
I regularly use injector cleaning, ethanol trapping fuel additives (Amsoil).

I do not see any visible damage to the plug wires, but have not run it in the dark to check for leakage.

Having missed last years riding due to a blown knee & subsequent replacement and knowing the other one will probably get done this winter, I really don't want to have to keep the LT down for more than a few hours this season.

I could really use some guru advice.

3 important data items needed:
----------------------------------
1) What YEAR is the K1200LT ?

2) Do you have access to a GS911? O2 sensor replaced means nothing unless I can confirm a good signal ;-)

3) What other recent work done on bike since problem began - think of everything that was touched (plug caps pushed deeply to click good, fuel-filter , fuel hoses...)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #3 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 3:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
3 important data items needed:
----------------------------------
1) What YEAR is the K1200LT ? 2002

2) Do you have access to a GS911? O2 sensor replaced means nothing unless I can confirm a good signal ;-) Yes, I have one, just haven't messed with it much.

3) What other recent work done on bike since problem began - think of everything that was touched (plug caps pushed deeply to click good, fuel-filter , fuel hoses...) Fuel filter, hoses and QDs were all changed July of '13. Bike sat all last year. All new fluids, plugs, and O2 sensor this spring. I had a plug come loose and blow out a couple months ago, so went through and double checked all plug torques. I did have a couple of the terminal nuts come off with the wires, but I'm fairly certain I got everything back together tight.
I will double check the plug connections. I was going to open her up this weekend to check for spark leakage anyway.

I can hook the GS911 up after work today if you can tell me what to look at/write down for you.
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post #4 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 4:09 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
I will double check the plug connections. I was going to open her up this weekend to check for spark leakage anyway.

I can hook the GS911 up after work today if you can tell me what to look at/write down for you.
The GS911 can give you an "on screen" graph / plot of O2 sensor signal, however I prefer a full data log file with ALL parameters (TPS, RPM, Temp...). Because you are not reporting a cold-start hesitation, I would suggest to do the data logging with engine already warmed up (maybe after a short ride).

For a problem like yours, it would be even better to hook a small PC live with GS911 (PC hidden inside top case or side-case) and do the data logging live while riding. However, this is not always possible with some laptops that are more fragile or too big to fit. So a test on center-stand will be acceptable as a start...

PROCEDURE TO LOG DATA INTO A FILE:
There is so many variables from machine-to-machine that it is important for me to gather this data in same conditions to minimize variables.

(1) Install K1200LT on center stand (do not start until step 4 below)
(2) Plug GS911 into bike diagnostic plug, then into PC (if Yellow unit)

(3) Start software (will ask ignition ON) and go into menu "realtime values" + "Log to CSV" button. Use defaults for all items. Choose / type a filename or use the default filename offered.

(4) Start your K1200LT. AFTER about 1 minute of IDLING do occasional throttle twist to raise RPM to 2000 (4 to 5 seconds) and 4000 RPM (2-3 seconds). After these short RPM changes let it go back to idle for at least 30 secs in between.

(5) Stop "log-to file" on screen interface, then stop engine when you reach above half-way point on the temp gauge on dash -OR- at least a full log time of 4 minutes.

NOTE: It is IMPORTANT not to touch throttle during start as it should idle by itself. If it does not, then do what is required and let me know when you post the file here (as attachment).

See attached image for menu items in GS911 software. Screen may vary a bit depending on your software version.
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-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #5 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 4:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

I bought a small used HP laptop just for this after I found out my Windows Phone 8.1 is not compatible. I can hook it up, put it in the top-box and go for a ride, no problem. If the cord won't reach the top-box I can put the dog carrier on the pillion seat, it's well padded.

I have the red GS911. My understanding though is not all the functions work with the wireless connection. If what you need will work that way, I can do that.

If I take it for a ride is there a time limit, or is more better?

What is the best way to get the log file to you?
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post #6 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 7:02 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

also do a compression test, you have replaced the easy bits and not fixed it, did you run an ohm meter across the plug wires to check them,

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post #7 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 7:40 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
I bought a small used HP laptop just for this after I found out my Windows Phone 8.1 is not compatible. I can hook it up, put it in the top-box and go for a ride, no problem. If the cord won't reach the top-box I can put the dog carrier on the pillion seat, it's well padded.

I have the red GS911. My understanding though is not all the functions work with the wireless connection. If what you need will work that way, I can do that.

If I take it for a ride is there a time limit, or is more better?

What is the best way to get the log file to you?
1) I use the previous YELLOW version of GS911 with USB connection, So I am not 100% sure of the limitation of the new RED version with WIFI. I do remember reading on the HexCode web site that certain function could not be used in BlueTooth or WIFI. So I think it is safer to use USB mode (connector is still available on the RED unit).

2) Resulting file created by GS911 realtime data log has a ".CSV" extension. You can read it in EXCEL but need some conversion to fully use all data. Just post the file here as an attachment in your post and I will convert to more friendly readable ".XLS" format (with O2 data graph).

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #8 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 9:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

Can't get the file to upload. Keeps coming back as invalid.
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post #9 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 9:51 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

It will not let you load a CSV file - just save it in excel as a .xls file and you can upload it.

John
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post #10 of 58 Old Jun 22nd, 2015, 10:09 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

I had tried saving it as an Excel file, but it was the newer xlsx format. Had to go back to 2003 to get it to go.

It's funny that as a cvs it was 81k, as a xlsx it was 40 and as a xls it's 142.

let me know if this isn't adequate.

I did take it for a ride hooked up, but was trying to follow directions from memory, so I may not have done everything right.

Other than saving it as an xls file what needs to be done to decipher the data? It would be nice to be able to do it myself especially if I'm on the road and need to check something.

Thanks,
Keven
Attached Files
File Type: xls log 2015-06-22.xls (142.0 KB, 47 views)
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post #11 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 7:54 am
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
I had tried saving it as an Excel file, but it was the newer xlsx format. Had to go back to 2003 to get it to go.

It's funny that as a cvs it was 81k, as a xlsx it was 40 and as a xls it's 142.

let me know if this isn't adequate.

I did take it for a ride hooked up, but was trying to follow directions from memory, so I may not have done everything right.

Other than saving it as an xls file what needs to be done to decipher the data? It would be nice to be able to do it myself especially if I'm on the road and need to check something.

Thanks,
Keven
Keven,

I always post as ".XLS" file on forums so was not aware that this forum would not accept ".CSV" as John said (Jzeiler).

The conversion from CSV to XLS does not happen when you just rename or change extension as internally it is basically a text file where each line is separated with CRLF (LineFeed) and each data column is separated with COMMA (hence the 3 letters extension Comma-Separated-Values). Depending on version of Excel, you would use the menu DATA and CONVERT to specify a Comma-Delimited format - following this you need to "Save AS" and use the XLS format of 1997-2003 (to be more compatible with user having old version of Excel).

BACK to YOUR DATA:
See attached file where I converted, added some feature to make it more readable and also added a Graph of O2 sensor at bottom of data.

Will have more time to study data relationship tonight, but right away I see O2 sensor showing extreme LEAN condition is certain section that are not normal. Each line is roughly at 0.8 sec intervalls (1st column is in millisec based on data sampling selected on GS911 screen).

If you are not familiar with Oxygen-sensor data, please have a look at this short tutorial on GS911 web site:
Lambda ? HEX Code


*** QUESTIONS:
1) to help data analysis, can you remember roughly how many "misses" or hesitations you felt during ride? Was it at constant RPM or during acceleration?

2) Was it really 100 deg F outside (air temp) when you did the ride ?

3) When you have time can you hook up GS911 (Ignition ON, but Engine OFF) to execute the menu Auto-Scan and save the data to a file (there is a menu option or button for this). This will give any fault codes and also the Motronic version yo have.
Attached Files
File Type: xls GS911_log 2015-06-22 (Bluff8Stuff K1200LT 2002 - testing on a ride).xls (170.0 KB, 49 views)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #12 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 8:46 am Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Keven,

I always post as ".XLS" file on forums so was not aware that this forum would not accept ".CSV" as John said (Jzeiler).

The conversion from CSV to XLS does not happen when you just rename or change extension as internally it is basically a text file where each line is separated with CRLF (LineFeed) and each data column is separated with COMMA (hence the 3 letters extension Comma-Separated-Values). Depending on version of Excel, you would use the menu DATA and CONVERT to specify a Comma-Delimited format - following this you need to "Save AS" and use the XLS format of 1997-2003 (to be more compatible with user having old version of Excel).

BACK to YOUR DATA:
See attached file where I converted, added some feature to make it more readable and also added a Graph of O2 sensor at bottom of data.

Will have more time to study data relationship tonight, but right away I see O2 sensor showing extreme LEAN condition is certain section that are not normal. Each line is roughly at 0.8 sec intervalls (1st column is in millisec based on data sampling selected on GS911 screen).

If you are not familiar with Oxygen-sensor data, please have a look at this short tutorial on GS911 web site:
Lambda ? HEX Code


*** QUESTIONS:
1) to help data analysis, can you remember roughly how many "misses" or hesitations you felt during ride? Was it at constant RPM or during acceleration? I don't, counting them hasn't even occured to me.

2) Was it really 100 deg F outside (air temp) when you did the ride ? Probaly more like 95.

3) When you have time can you hook up GS911 (Ignition ON, but Engine OFF) to execute the menu Auto-Scan and save the data to a file (there is a menu option or button for this). This will give any fault codes and also the Motronic version yo have. Yea, I can do that after work.
I have the computer in the top-box with me at work. I could hook it back up and get data on the ride home while trying to count misses and be more aware of when it's more noticeable. Check actual temp etc. anything else that could be helpful.

Thanks,
Keven
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post #13 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 9:22 am
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
I have the computer in the top-box with me at work. I could hook it back up and get data on the ride home while trying to count misses and be more aware of when it's more noticeable. Check actual temp etc. anything else that could be helpful.

Thanks,
Keven
For the moment, besides what was already asked in earlier post, should I assume it starts well HOT or COLD as you you have not mentioned this as being a problem ?

You should NOT need to touch throttle in either COLD or HOT start - it should fast-idle by itself when cold.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #14 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 10:44 am Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

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For the moment, besides what was already asked in earlier post, should I assume it starts well HOT or COLD as you you have not mentioned this as being a problem ?

You should NOT need to touch throttle in either COLD or HOT start - it should fast-idle by itself when cold.
Yea it fires right up. A few times it has died right after starting but restarts easy. I don't really feel any loss of power. Acceleration right up to the rev limiter is smooth, enough torque to easily take off at 1100- 1200 rpm, I often don't even have to use the clutch when I come to a stop sign unless there is other traffic and I have to actually come to a complete stop.

The miss is very noticeable audibly, and the drop in gas mileage is troublesome.

You said the data showed a lean condition. could this be a bad injector?
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post #15 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 2:59 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Yea it fires right up. A few times it has died right after starting but restarts easy. I don't really feel any loss of power. Acceleration right up to the rev limiter is smooth, enough torque to easily take off at 1100- 1200 rpm, I often don't even have to use the clutch when I come to a stop sign unless there is other traffic and I have to actually come to a complete stop.

The miss is very noticeable audibly, and the drop in gas mileage is troublesome.

You said the data showed a lean condition. could this be a bad injector?
Unless the O2 data is flat-lined (around 400 or 500 Millivolts) OR unless it stays very high or very low ALL the time, then we have to assume the cause is NOT the O2 sensor.
In your case, we have to keep in mind that a lean condition on O2 sensor (for certain period) is only the messenger (or symptoms) of something else being wrong.

So, fact we have an Engine miss, combined with higher fuel consumption would be 2 symptoms and the O2 lean sensor data is just one more data point. Motronic EFI may be trying to compensate for a lack of fuel reaching / coming-out of injectors.

In addition to not being on-site to see and ride it, we have other limitations to troubleshoot these K1200LT engine issues:
A) These Motronic are fairly old EFI technology designed in 1980-1990 and do not furnish as much data-points to GS911 as the newer EFI from BMW (newer means since 2005 in "frontal-4-cylinders", R1200 and K1600).

B) When Motronic compensates because of a lean or rich condition, we do not have access to compensation values used as you have on newer EFI (or ODBII on cars).

C) Because of above limitations in A-B, to avoid chasing too many possibilities, we have to use a combination of:
- how does it respond and "feel" in various conditions (hot, cold, accelerating...)
- has the fuel-mileage change lately
- what recent work may have cause a change
- what common issues exist on K1200LT engine that are common and probable causes

The GS911 data, plus your feedback is a starting point to avoid too many traps and too many "change this part", then more trial of "change this other part".... until you finally find the cause (process of elimination). Some dealer will make you a nice bill trying many things....

CONCLUSION: for the moment, with limited info I have from your post and GS911 data, I would guess the most probable causes would be, from easier to harder to test / fix:
1) Dirty Injectors: you said bike not used much, stored for a while, old gaz... so may need some fuel system cleaner like Sea-Foam / Techron and a very good high RPM ride to clear it up.

2) Intake air leaks (common on K1200 as they age and is covered in many treads here in forum - not easy to fix as many parts need to be removed to reach as-far-as under throttle-bodies)

3) Defective / shorting / damaged spark-plug wires (common issue with age and need a wet test in the dark to confirm - would cause engine misfire but not a lean condition)

4) One or more Defective injectors (we cannot get confirmation from GS911 or Motronic on this - the EFI system just use "injection time" as programmed expecting the injectors to work)

5) Intermittent or worn TPS (not common as this specific TPS from BOSCH has been very reliable on R1100/R1150 and K1200)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #16 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 5:01 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

An easy thing to do is pull plugs and post pic taken in sunlight, they should be an extremely light tan but there should be some color and all four should be the same. I do not see that has been done also ohm the wires as well as checking for leaks.

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post #17 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 9:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

K, there wasn't much gas in the tank while it sat. I only run Chevron gas in any of my vehicles so the Techron is there. I have run several tanks through since taking it out of storage. I also use Amsoil's motorcycle fuel additive to trap the ethanol and keep the system clean.

Possible that after sitting and then running new gas and additive it loosened up some crud that's plugging an injector?

I know I have some Sea Foam spray in the cabinet I'm not sure about liquid. there are several parts stores between home and work so it wouldn't be a problem to pick some up.
If I have some I'll put it in before I go to work in the morning; if not I'll pick some up after work tomorrow and ride for a while before going home.

I'll pull tupperware and the plug cover this weekend to check the wires and plug tip color.

When I changed the plugs there wasn't any visible damage to the wires, but they do look like they are original, so I'll order a new set.

Is there a simple home garage way to test the injectors?

We used to spray a little ether to find intake manifold leaks. Would that be safe for this engine to check for intake leaks?

That should about wipe out this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the help and ideas so far!
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post #18 of 58 Old Jun 23rd, 2015, 9:54 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

You should wait and ohm the wires, at least see if one could be bad, they are around 6 ohms and they are quite expensive. If you shotgun it and it goes away you will not know what was actually wrong.
Plug color is a good way of pointing you in a direction.

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
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post #19 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 8:20 am
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
K, there wasn't much gas in the tank while it sat. I only run Chevron gas in any of my vehicles so the Techron is there. I have run several tanks through since taking it out of storage. I also use Amsoil's motorcycle fuel additive to trap the ethanol and keep the system clean.

Possible that after sitting and then running new gas and additive it loosened up some crud that's plugging an injector?

I know I have some Sea Foam spray in the cabinet I'm not sure about liquid. there are several parts stores between home and work so it wouldn't be a problem to pick some up.
If I have some I'll put it in before I go to work in the morning; if not I'll pick some up after work tomorrow and ride for a while before going home.

I'll pull tupperware and the plug cover this weekend to check the wires and plug tip color.

When I changed the plugs there wasn't any visible damage to the wires, but they do look like they are original, so I'll order a new set.

Is there a simple home garage way to test the injectors?

We used to spray a little ether to find intake manifold leaks. Would that be safe for this engine to check for intake leaks?

That should about wipe out this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the help and ideas so far!
If you still have the factory plug caps and high-tension wires, the specs are 5K Ohms for Caps and 1K Ohms for wire (total of 6K ohms from end-to-end). See attached photos...

Because of design, the wires will chaff and wear out inside cylinder head cavity over time. BMW should have used some protection over these wires as some cars have in similar conditions / design.

If needed, you can get a 3rd party replacement set from these guys at a very acceptable price:
EnDuraLast - BMW K1200 Ignition Cable
I have used this set on mine at 70,000 miles, so did many owners of K1200RS and K1200LT that I know. The set is not an exact match to the BMW OEM parts but it does the same job at a fraction of the BMW price.
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-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #20 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 8:43 am Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
You should wait and ohm the wires, at least see if one could be bad, they are around 6 ohms and they are quite expensive. If you shotgun it and it goes away you will not know what was actually wrong.
Plug color is a good way of pointing you in a direction.
I plan on pulling them this weekend to; if nothing else see if it's just one cylinder or more. John (sailor) has looked at the GS911 data and determined that there is a lean condition. I can think of nothing in the ignition system that would cause a lean burn, so I'm sure I'll be messing with the fuel system this weekend.

The miss may be a result of the lean condition, but the way it's popping I think there must be an ignition problem of some sort as well, and the wires at 13 years old would be suspect.
As far as the cost; I have looked at the wires Sailor linked to as well as these. If it turns out the wires are bad even if I had to pay BMWs price it would pay for itself in returned gas mileage.
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post #21 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 9:12 am
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
I plan on pulling them this weekend to; if nothing else see if it's just one cylinder or more. John (sailor) has looked at the GS911 data and determined that there is a lean condition. I can think of nothing in the ignition system that would cause a lean burn, so I'm sure I'll be messing with the fuel system this weekend.

The miss may be a result of the lean condition, but the way it's popping I think there must be an ignition problem of some sort as well, and the wires at 13 years old would be suspect.
As far as the cost; I have looked at the wires Sailor linked to as well as these. If it turns out the wires are bad even if I had to pay BMWs price it would pay for itself in returned gas mileage.
Keven,
The wires you pointed out look good HOWEVER they only showed up on EBAY and various site during last 24 months, so I was not aware of these other 3rd party replacement when I bought mine from EuroMoto-Electrics.

My only doubt with these other wires from OCD-MACHINE is that I do not know anyone who tried them yet - anyone here know these guys ?
*OCD Machine - Home
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #22 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 11:54 am
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Re: Miss & milage

A suggestion: Get a bottle of Techron and dump it in. Then plug your fuel pump into the extra connector at the rear of the right tip-over bar and let the pump run full time for a few minutes. This can help clean out the fuel rail. The pressure regulator will allow the extra pressure to pass back into the tank from the rail. Cheap and easy.


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post #23 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 1:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Keven,
The wires you pointed out look good HOWEVER they only showed up on EBAY and various site during last 24 months, so I was not aware of these other 3rd party replacement when I bought mine from EuroMoto-Electrics.

My only doubt with these other wires from OCD-MACHINE is that I do not know anyone who tried them yet - anyone here know these guys ?
*OCD Machine - Home
I know, they are awfully inexpensive; even if they turn out to be crap and I have to order from EME, I'm still $140.00 under BMWs. Beside that someone has to be a guinea pig for the forum.

It turned out I did have an unopened can of Sea Foam in the cabinet, so I dosed it last night and then hit the highway for about half an hour, no real difference so far.

If I get a chance to open her up this weekend, I'll probably start with the least expensive items first. Will checking for intake leaks with ether be safe for this engine?
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post #24 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 2:23 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by Buff8stuff View Post
.....
.....

If I get a chance to open her up this weekend, I'll probably start with the least expensive items first. Will checking for intake leaks with ether be safe for this engine?
For many years on motorcycles and cars forums, the technique of spraying various substance around air intake (Manifolds, hoses…) to detect air-leaks has been discussed. Some have had success (so they say). In some cases, it was suggested to use pretty toxic substance for you or for the rubber/plastic components located around the intake (like brake cleaner in spray can).

I would only use such method in very limited case where the whole intake area is simple and fully in view (like a BMW boxer twin engine).

On the K1200 platform, I would NOT use this method for following reasons:
(1) Too many hidden nooks and crannies will not get required spray unless you put a ton of it (then risk of fire depending on substance used).

(2) Risk of damage of many rubber components/hoses, some hidden behind the throttle-bodies (depending on substance used)

(3) Possible damage to wires/connectors around throttle-bodies

(4) Hit and miss proposition with too many false conclusions if there is no change in RPM (you may not have reached every nook)

Having seen damage to these intake rubber components on various K1200 after 8 to 10 years, I firmly believe that the only solution is to replace the whole list in one shot – then you have peace of mind for next 8 to 10 years. In addition to a bunch of small vacuum-hoses, main culprits are 4 rubber manifold stub (under TB) and 4 O-rings hidden under Manifolds intake (touching cylinder-head).

The other weak link that may last less than 8 years is the crankcase 4-into-1 breather rubber tube offered by BMW – the material is not terrific. A few members here made a stronger home made version:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...ntilation.html
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...ose-again.html

HOWEVER, a crack in this 4-into-1 breather tube will make an oily mess on top of the engine (and around Throttle-body), BUT IT IS NOT a critical air-leak as it leads to top of butterfly (so it does NOT feed a lot of added air not accounted by the EFI),

-------------------------------------------------
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #25 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 3:27 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

One more idea I forgot to mention for intermittent engine misses...
While searching for a parts list I had posted in another thread about "air-leak", I found a post that may be useful for you problem - not common but fairly easy to check
(1 or more fuel injector connectors not fully seated):

I have seen an isolated case where one pin of a given connector (TPS, TVA, fuel-injector) had backed off into its plastic holder. Normally these small pins are held / jammed into their plastic holder by a small metal barb that will click and jam each female connector into place. Very difficult to catch a case like this unless you carefully examine each connector from inside (normally on main harness side). To give you an idea of this, see this YouTube video and jump at position 18:00 minutes into it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e__MZB-6laM

If you can stand the bad language of this BMW independant mechanic, listening to the whole video will teach a few tricks about troubleshooting a modern EFI BMW (from simple to complex - from most probable to least - from less time consuming to more). I DO NOT agree 100% with the order/priority he choose but he is covering a lot of ground in this video for an R1150R having intermittent issues. Similar BOSCH Motronic EFI but 2 throttle-bodies only.

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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #26 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 4:19 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

So....
The Motronic detects a lean condition & corrects for it by richening the mixture (possibly by keeping the injectors open longer?) thus your fuel mileage goes down.
If it still sees the lean condition, it will try to correct more, up to a point.
So I'm wondering what your spark plugs look like (should be all black).

Did this start before or after you changed the O2 sensor?

If after, I'd check to see if you got a bum sensor.
If before....then I suspect a vacuum leak.

(I suppose it's also possible that a leaking internal fuel tank line could be causing low fuel pressure.)

Just guessing.
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
One more idea I forgot to mention for intermittent engine misses...
While searching for a parts list I had posted in another thread about "air-leak", I found a post that may be useful for you problem - not common but fairly easy to check
(1 or more fuel injector connectors not fully seated):

I have seen an isolated case where one pin of a given connector (TPS, TVA, fuel-injector) had backed off into its plastic holder. Normally these small pins are held / jammed into their plastic holder by a small metal barb that will click and jam each female connector into place. Very difficult to catch a case like this unless you carefully examine each connector from inside (normally on main harness side). To give you an idea of this, see this YouTube video and jump at position 18:00 minutes into it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e__MZB-6laM

If you can stand the bad language of this BMW independant mechanic, listening to the whole video will teach a few tricks about troubleshooting a modern EFI BMW (from simple to complex - from most probable to least - from less time consuming to more). I DO NOT agree 100% with the order/priority he choose but he is covering a lot of ground in this video for an R1150R having intermittent issues. Similar BOSCH Motronic EFI but 2 throttle-bodies only.
I'll have a look at the video after work. I would bet with your comment about language it must be Chris Harris.
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post #28 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 4:36 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by rhawk View Post
So....
The Motronic detects a lean condition & corrects for it by richening the mixture (possibly by keeping the injectors open longer?) thus your fuel mileage goes down.
If it still sees the lean condition, it will try to correct more, up to a point.
So I'm wondering what your spark plugs look like (should be all black).

Did this start before or after you changed the O2 sensor?

If after, I'd check to see if you got a bum sensor.
If before....then I suspect a vacuum leak.

(I suppose it's also possible that a leaking internal fuel tank line could be causing low fuel pressure.)

Just guessing.
Gas mileage dropped first. That's why I started changing and checking things. The miss is new.

Wouldn't a faulty O2 sensor be detected by the GS911?
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post #29 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 5:36 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhawk View Post
So....
The Motronic detects a lean condition & corrects for it by richening the mixture (possibly by keeping the injectors open longer?) thus your fuel mileage goes down.
If it still sees the lean condition, it will try to correct more, up to a point.
So I'm wondering what your spark plugs look like (should be all black).

Did this start before or after you changed the O2 sensor?

If after, I'd check to see if you got a bum sensor.
If before....then I suspect a vacuum leak.

(I suppose it's also possible that a leaking internal fuel tank line could be causing low fuel pressure.)

Just guessing.
Rand,
See earlier in my post (number 11) where I included his GS911 data run with an O2 sensor plot (below data in EXCEL). Have a look...

My comments above where that it goes in lean mode a bit too long but still only in period of reduced RPM (like if he his slowing down for traffic or a stop sign). There is NO flat-lined value in the middle or extreme rich / lean for a long time, so I have to assume his O2 sensor is working. For the moment, I see this lean condition as a symptom of something else (like an air-leak or lack of fuel being received from injectors).

The latter (lack of fuel) is much wider to troubleshoot than an air leak. It could be fuel-pressure related, or dirty / defective injectors or a bad injector connectors (he also mentioned intermittent engine misses in original post).

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey View Post
A suggestion: Get a bottle of Techron and dump it in. Then plug your fuel pump into the extra connector at the rear of the right tip-over bar and let the pump run full time for a few minutes. This can help clean out the fuel rail. The pressure regulator will allow the extra pressure to pass back into the tank from the rail. Cheap and easy.
New data point Dean. The powerlet connector is wired backwards from the fuel pump connector. The pump sounds like it is running and it is - only backwards!

This will not move any fuel at all. I discovered this when I replaced all the hoses in the tank last weekend. Hooked up some clear tubing to a set of QDs and ran the pump before I bolted the tank in place with the powerlet connector. Pump whirred but no fuel moved. Popped the unit back out of the tank and the hoses were fine.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #31 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 10:34 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

I don't want to send anyone down a different rabbit hole but I want to ask the question, is this an actual miss where the engine keeps running and is down 1 cylinder or is it like someone is tapping on the kill switch. Both could be described as a miss but they are actually quite different.

I had the latter on my 2001LT where I would be riding along and then the engine would just for a second, feel like it would cut out. I thought it was the side stand switch possibly bouncing so I ordered that. After talking to the master mechanic at my local shop when I went to pick up the switch, decided that I was on the wrong track. He said that in most cases, it was the TPS causing this issue, that is why I want to make sure we are talking about a miss or something more drastic like the throttle completely cutting out at speed just for a few milliseconds like tapping the kill switch. My symptoms completely disappeared after replacing my TPS and doing the GS911 adjustment procedure.

In my case, I didn't notice a mileage difference but felt it prudent to make the distinction between the two symptoms of a miss and a cut out feeling. I now have a new side stand switch waiting for my need to use it

Gordon

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2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
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post #32 of 58 Old Jun 24th, 2015, 11:49 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Rand,
See earlier in my post (number 11) where I included his GS911 data run with an O2 sensor plot (below data in EXCEL). Have a look...).
Great Googley Moogley!
Don't know how you can keep all that straight in your Head.

After reading the tutorial it makes a little more sense...O2 graph is supposed to be bouncing up & down.

I notice the Lambda closed loop is cycling off & on (ones & zeros),
and the intake air temp is really high.

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post #33 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 7:49 am
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Re: Miss & milage

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Great Googley Moogley!
Don't know how you can keep all that straight in your Head.

After reading the tutorial it makes a little more sense...O2 graph is supposed to be bouncing up & down.

I notice the Lambda closed loop is cycling off & on (ones & zeros),
and the intake air temp is really high.
1) The "lambda close-loop" cycling from ON to OFF is normal on these EFI system. Anytime the system sees a change in demand (RPM or throttle opening) it will go out of close-loop (no O2 sensor data used) until things settle down. This is one of reason (among others) why you can get very good mileage on highway at constant RPM, Constant speed, constant throtle-opening (no headwind, no hills). Close-loop mode is used a lot more often on highway type of riding to stay as close as possible to optimum Lambda mixture ratio (Air-Fuel).

2) I also saw the Intake-Air-Temp was high and asked the OP if indeed it was around 100F when he did the ride: he confirmed it was close to this. The reading you see at beginning a bit above 100 is normal as the engine was already warmed when he plugged GS911, so when he starts you get some warm ambient air temp from all heat under fairing. Once you are under way for a while, you get an idea of real outside air that goes thru the air-box (sensor location).

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post #34 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 7:58 am
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
I don't want to send anyone down a different rabbit hole but I want to ask the question, is this an actual miss where the engine keeps running and is down 1 cylinder or is it like someone is tapping on the kill switch. Both could be described as a miss but they are actually quite different.

I had the latter on my 2001LT where I would be riding along and then the engine would just for a second, feel like it would cut out. I thought it was the side stand switch possibly bouncing so I ordered that. After talking to the master mechanic at my local shop when I went to pick up the switch, decided that I was on the wrong track. He said that in most cases, it was the TPS causing this issue, that is why I want to make sure we are talking about a miss or something more drastic like the throttle completely cutting out at speed just for a few milliseconds like tapping the kill switch. My symptoms completely disappeared after replacing my TPS and doing the GS911 adjustment procedure.

In my case, I didn't notice a mileage difference but felt it prudent to make the distinction between the two symptoms of a miss and a cut out feeling. I now have a new side stand switch waiting for my need to use it

Gordon
Gordon,
This is a VERY GOOD POINT and one reason why I did began one post by saying that troubleshooting these things at distance is not easy If I cannot see and ride it. A lot of interpretation possible for "misses" can send you on wrong track and useless change of many parts.

However, I did insist to get the "live" data log from GS911 where I can see the TPS values. There is nothing in the file that leads me to believe the TPS has a faulty spot on either tracks (the TPS is in fact a dual-track variable resistance). This data is not perfect because the best data sampling GS911 will give is 0.6 seconds intervall so it is always possible to get misses or cut of signal in between (but NOT a high probability).

So, for the moment, given other data in the GS911 log file, I would say a bad TPS is a low probability item for this problem (his mileage drop is one more hint of something else).

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #35 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 9:49 am
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
New data point Dean. The powerlet connector is wired backwards from the fuel pump connector. The pump sounds like it is running and it is - only backwards!

This will not move any fuel at all. I discovered this when I replaced all the hoses in the tank last weekend. Hooked up some clear tubing to a set of QDs and ran the pump before I bolted the tank in place with the powerlet connector. Pump whirred but no fuel moved. Popped the unit back out of the tank and the hoses were fine.

Dang, time to build another adapter. Thanks for the info.


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post #36 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 10:03 am
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Question Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
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New data point Dean. The powerlet connector is wired backwards from the fuel pump connector. The pump sounds like it is running and it is - only backwards!

This will not move any fuel at all. I discovered this when I replaced all the hoses in the tank last weekend. Hooked up some clear tubing to a set of QDs and ran the pump before I bolted the tank in place with the powerlet connector. Pump whirred but no fuel moved. Popped the unit back out of the tank and the hoses were fine.
Whoa! Are you sure of the reversed wiring here John? I thought we used it when we were troubleshooting my Bike in the parking lot that day many moons ago and it worked fine. Or am I just having foggy memories? If this is the case then it is very important info.

John

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'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
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post #37 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 3:37 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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There is nothing in the file that leads me to believe the TPS has a faulty spot on either tracks (the TPS is in fact a dual-track variable resistance).
Interesting that it has dual tracks. Not sure how the motronic would use that data except possibly to isolate a fault if the values for both did not track the same. How would it know which one to use if one track had an issue as it is the only reference I am aware of for throttle position? Do they work in opposite directions? That might make sense if they did.

Don't let me derail the thread, Just an interesting bit of info on the TPS I didn't know. I may pull my old one apart now that I am pretty confident my issue was resolved by its replacement. Not going to yank all that apart again any time soon if I don't have to.

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post #38 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 3:52 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by AlaskaFish View Post
Whoa! Are you sure of the reversed wiring here John? I thought we used it when we were troubleshooting my Bike in the parking lot that day many moons ago and it worked fine. Or am I just having foggy memories? If this is the case then it is very important info.
Check out this thread from earlier this month.
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...-position.html

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post #39 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 7:25 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by AlaskaFish View Post
Whoa! Are you sure of the reversed wiring here John? I thought we used it when we were troubleshooting my Bike in the parking lot that day many moons ago and it worked fine. Or am I just having foggy memories? If this is the case then it is very important info.

John
I don't remember if we actually checked flow or just listened to the pump - running backwards.

A check of all years on the pins shows Pump socket is power on pin 2 and Brown on pin 1. Powerlet socket is just the opposite brown on pin 2 and power on pin 1.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #40 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 8:32 pm
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Cool Re: Miss & milage

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I don't remember if we actually checked flow or just listened to the pump - running backwards.

A check of all years on the pins shows Pump socket is power on pin 2 and Brown on pin 1. Powerlet socket is just the opposite brown on pin 2 and power on pin 1.
You're probably correct John. I'm thinking the concern was if the pump was even running, so maybe we weren't actually checking the flow.

As I recall it was the infamous hose coming loose inside the tank that caused my problems. Re-connecting the hose fixed the problem. And we suspected it because I had just upgraded all the hoses inside the tank for that CCR (Bend)!

Always look wherever you last worked. Good rule for troubleshooting!

John

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'00 K1200LTC "Katie"
'95 Triumph "Tigger"
'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
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post #41 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 10:33 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Interesting that it has dual tracks. Not sure how the motronic would use that data except possibly to isolate a fault if the values for both did not track the same. How would it know which one to use if one track had an issue as it is the only reference I am aware of for throttle position? Do they work in opposite directions? That might make sense if they did.

Don't let me derail the thread, Just an interesting bit of info on the TPS I didn't know. I may pull my old one apart now that I am pretty confident my issue was resolved by its replacement. Not going to yank all that apart again any time soon if I don't have to.
About this BOSH dual resistance track TPS: the problem they were trying to solve are the following common to combustion engines and EFI:
1) The amount of airflow that the throttle plate (butterfly) allows is not linear with its angle. The difference between 1 and 5 degree open is much greater in terms of rate-of-airflow change than the difference between 51 and 55 degree.

2) To obtain a very precise measurement at small throttle opening, the TPS is designed as dual track potentiometer. The 1st track has a very steep linear characteristic (0 to 5 volts out of 20 degrees). The 2nd track is less steep and will spread the 5 volts signal over remaining throttle opening (roughly over 65 degrees).

To understand better how you can test / check your old TPS I have attached a document in PDF format that is work-in-progress. I have already published an earlier / older version here a few months ago (in another thread). Please keep in mind that English is not my 1st language, so I am always opened to suggestion to improve it.

P.S.: These TPS unit were not designed to be opened or serviced, so you are better to make measurements BEFORE you attempt to open the plastic case ;-)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BMW_K1200_Throttle-Position-Sensor TPS (version 1-2).pdf (381.6 KB, 268 views)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #42 of 58 Old Jun 25th, 2015, 11:12 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
To understand better how you can test / check your old TPS I have attached a document in PDF format that is work-in-progress. I have already published an earlier / older version here a few months ago (in another thread). Please keep in mind that English is not my 1st language, so I am always opened to suggestion to improve it.

P.S.: These TPS unit were not designed to be opened or serviced, so you are better to make measurements BEFORE you attempt to open the plastic case ;-)
Jean, this is an excellent write up on the sensor operation. I think my issue would be on the first track unless maintaining highway speeds would push operation to the second track. I have 5 different meters although none are analog but I do have an old oscilloscope I might be able to use if I set it up right. I also might be able to build a small oscillator circuit to audibly listen to the ramp up and down and hear any non linear progression or interruption in tone. Was just at the appliance parts store picking up a run cap for my AC blower motor and they had some analog meters marked pretty cheap I can keep that as an option if all else fails.

As I get a chance, I will do some testing on my sensor. I no longer need to open it as I now know what is inside and how it works thanks to you.

Who thinks up this stuff anyways.

As always, you are a very valuable resource to the membership on this forum including me. Your accumulation of knowledge is astounding.

Thanks.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #43 of 58 Old Jun 26th, 2015, 11:24 am
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Re: Miss & milage

+1 on thanking John for this write up and open willingness to share his knowledge. I added it to my collection of information.

Jim
2003 BMW K1200LT (my favorite 2 wheeled land yacht)
2008 Yamaha FJR1300 (recent addition)
1982 Yamaha Vision (long gone)
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post #44 of 58 Old Jun 26th, 2015, 12:05 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by Jim_McG View Post
+1 on thanking John for this write up and open willingness to share his knowledge. I added it to my collection of information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Jean, this is an excellent write up on the sensor operation. I think my issue would be on the first track unless maintaining highway speeds would push operation to the second track. I have 5 different meters although none are analog but I do have an old oscilloscope I might be able to use if I set it up right. I also might be able to build a small oscillator circuit to audibly listen to the ramp up and down and hear any non linear progression or interruption in tone.
...
....
As I get a chance, I will do some testing on my sensor. I no longer need to open it as I now know what is inside and how it works thanks to you.
....
....
Jim, Gordon,
Thank you both for kind words.

There was also a lot more info posted in the earlier thread called "cold blooded...is there a fix", but it is many pages long with a lot of back-forth / feedback from many members.

I have done more tests where I actually do touch these TB screws with blue-paint. However, not knowing the level of comfort of readers (or knowledge of EFI) I had to make each of these document in such a way as to tell "do not do it unless you want to tow your bike back to the dealer".

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #45 of 58 Old Jun 26th, 2015, 12:49 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
There was also a lot more info posted in the earlier thread called "cold blooded...is there a fix", but it is many pages long with a lot of back-forth / feedback from many members.
I think I cut my teeth on this forum with that thread and used some of that information to build a copper breather tube referenced by rdepas ( Richard ) to replace my failed plastic one at the same time I did my TPS. It was an expensive fix as I ended up buying not borrowing a GS911 WiFi to place in my tool set not being one who likes to go pay for things I can do myself. That too was a very informative thread and I used much of the info posted in there doing my own repair.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #46 of 58 Old Jun 27th, 2015, 12:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Miss & milage

Okay,
Sorry I've been absent for the last few days, things really got crazy at work. I've been there from 5 to 5 every day this week and so swamped I couldn't spend any meaningful time on the forum.

I did take the opportunity to pay more attention to the miss. Here's what I noticed that may be pertinent. At idle it's not popping but there is a roughness about it that reminds me of a big block Chevy with a lumpy cam. Acceleration is smooth, the miss is most noticeable when cruising through residential at around 2500 RPM.

Chores are lagging at home so I probably won't get to open her up until late tonight or tomorrow morning if at all this weekend.

Sailor, here is the other log you asked for, again sorry for the delay.
Attached Files
File Type: txt AutoScan Report for 2015-06-25.txt (1.7 KB, 71 views)
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post #47 of 58 Old Jun 30th, 2015, 7:04 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

Ok, I'm not at the caliber of some of the engineer/moto-techies found here, but I just wonder about some simple thing like...The bike sat for a while, what about maybe some small critter building a nest in the air intake, wouldn't that decrease in air flow maybe create an increase in fuel consumption, maybe the motronic is trying to lean the fuel out, and you possibly are getting a pre-ignition pop rather than a miss.....Just thought I'd throw that up and see where it sticks

RICH CANNON
2000 K1200LT "a great ride"
2002 GL1800 powerful, but boring..(gone)
1979 XS1100 (gone)
1986 VT500 Ascot (gone)
1972 Honda 500-4 (gone)
1961 Lambretta (way gone)
1962 Allstate Compact (gone but not forgotten)
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post #48 of 58 Old Jun 30th, 2015, 8:07 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Originally Posted by casualemt View Post
Ok, I'm not at the caliber of some of the engineer/moto-techies found here, but I just wonder about some simple thing like...The bike sat for a while, what about maybe some small critter building a nest in the air intake, wouldn't that decrease in air flow maybe create an increase in fuel consumption, maybe the motronic is trying to lean the fuel out, and you possibly are getting a pre-ignition pop rather than a miss.....Just thought I'd throw that up and see where it sticks
Rich,
This is a VERY GOOD POINT given he said bike sat for a while. I should have included this item (critter, air-intake) in my first or 2nd post.

However, later he posted these 2 items that had me rule out an air-intake being partially blocked as the main cause:
1) In an early post he wrote this: "I don't really feel any loss of power. Acceleration right up to the rev limiter is smooth..."

2) In a more recent post he also wrote this: " Acceleration is smooth, the miss is most noticeable when cruising through residential at around 2500 RPM."

SO... when cruising in these conditions (ITEM 2), the throttle butterflies are just a bit opened and mixture is fairly lean normally by default (unless pulling hard to go uphill).

These are ideal conditions to get hesitations and surging from an EFI engine running lean. For many years the R1100/R1150 boxer owners fought BMW and their dealers with surging engines in similar conditions - this was only solved (in most cases) when they came out with the last generation R1150 having double-ignition (2 spark-plugs per cylinder). The R1200 boxer came out with a different EFI system and the problem was not common anymore.

The so-called "engine surging" is not common on K1200 engines, however I am mentioning above issue of R1100/R1150 as a "contextual" problem more common in modern EFI engines tuned to be leaned (by design) in order to meet strict emissions. In his case, a tiny bit more lean than normal may bring the issue on his K1200 engine although it is not common.

So I am leaning (no pun intended) toward lack of fuel for some reason - either:
- dirty injectors -OR- bad/loose injector connectors,
- mixture affected by a 3rd party add-on (these are hooked into air-temp-sensor OR Oxygen sensor)
- too low fuel-pressure
- TPS track defect at certain throttle opening (not common and could NOT see in GS911 log)

NOT ruling out other causes discussed earlier (plugs wires) but better to concentrate on most probable.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #49 of 58 Old Jun 30th, 2015, 9:00 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

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Rich,
...
....
So I am leaning (no pun intended) toward lack of fuel for some reason - either:
- dirty injectors -OR- bad/loose injector connectors,
- mixture affected by a 3rd party add-on (these are hooked into air-temp-sensor OR Oxygen sensor)
- too low fuel-pressure
- TPS track defect at certain throttle opening (not common and could NOT see in GS911 log)
.....
Forgot something in earlier post - brain fart - sorry: although the "air-intake-leaks" had been mentioned in my post on June 23, I should have repeated it in my last list above in order to be complete.

So the last post relevant section should have been:

So I am leaning (no pun intended) toward lack of fuel -OR- too much air for some reason - either:
- Air Intake leak (see earlier post on june 23 for details)
- dirty injectors -OR- bad/loose injector connectors,
- mixture affected by a 3rd party add-on (these are hooked into air-temp-sensor OR Oxygen sensor)
- too low fuel-pressure (no very probable as it works well at higher RPM)
- TPS track defect at certain throttle opening (not common and could NOT see in GS911 log)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #50 of 58 Old Jun 30th, 2015, 10:18 pm
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Re: Miss & milage

I know you guys have checked everything under the sun on this bike...

Soooo. humor me and look to see if the flanges on the exhaust pipe next to the head have any leakage.

The reason I ask is because my friend Grant had a very very similar issue and come to find out the flanges were cracked and leaking. After all the testing of plug wires and sensors... this was the issue.

$1100 later and a new stainless exhaust system later...

Tvguy
'16 R1200RT - "Golden Eye"
'11 R1200RT - "Night Fury" SOLD
'02 K1200LTE - "The Silver Bullet" SOLD

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