Cannisterectomy...required? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 24 Old Jul 27th, 2006, 10:36 pm Thread Starter
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Cannisterectomy...required?

Fellas (and Joe)

Is the cannisterectomy required wrenching? Its easy enough to get at, but Im curious as to why its required. I understand that there is the possibility of clogging leading to vacuum in the tank which leads to sputtering/missing/failure but should I just let it do its thing and take my chances, or do I just pull the round bastard and be done with it?

Advise



F
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post #2 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 12:52 am
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Sure, you can leave it in and replace it when it clogs but where will you be when it does clog. Mine clogged after baby decided to roll over and play dead (and of course that only happens in your driveway or near your dealer, never by the side of the road 100 miles from the nearest town).
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post #3 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 2:02 am
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There's no pressing need to do it. The only reason to is if youy ride in the rain quite a bit ()where water can get sucked in through its breather tube) or if gas (not just fumes) gets into it, either of which will clog it up. If you ever have the bike apoart to the point where it's accessible you might as well remove it, but otherwise I wouldn't make a special effort to do so.

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post #4 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 6:41 am
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take it to the Ohio tech session (see Mid-West) and do it there. I had it done there last month. With a bunch of really good wrenches around it took about 30 mins (includes BS time, lighting each other on fire, tool searchs and general tomfoolery when you get a group like this together).
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post #5 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 8:55 am
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Canisterectomy, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Fellas (and Joe)

Is the cannisterectomy required wrenching? Its easy enough to get at, but Im curious as to why its required. I understand that there is the possibility of clogging leading to vacuum in the tank which leads to sputtering/missing/failure but should I just let it do its thing and take my chances, or do I just pull the round bastard and be done with it?

Advise



F
Howdy Florian and to all those that may be questioning this advise as well,

I remember the reluctance I had to "modifying" anything on the magnificent machine that I had just purchased back in '04. Many members of the Posse had told me to "do a Canisterectomy" and I, as it is in my nature to do, questioned the wisdom of removing an integral part of the system for something that was described as a "potential" issue. Besides, my bike was brand new and was probably better than previous models, right?

I put off doing anything rash, figured I'd think about it awhile.

While riding back from the '04 CCR in a 2 hour, 35 degree (gotta love the electric vests), rain and hail downpour the bike performed fantastically. Got into Wendover, NV (a la Burt Munro) with no problem. NO PROBLEMS at ALL. Rain, clogged canister.....pffft.

The next morning, after joining back up with the Posse, we gassed up, odd to hear that sucking sound when I openned the gas cap, and headed out across the dessert. I had run the numbers on distance and mileage and planned on getting gas just West of Battle Mountain. It was the "tightest" leg, but should have been reachable if performance was as expected.

Fuel in the desserts of Nevada is not scarce, but is restricted to very specific locations. If in doubt, then you gas up. Riding along at a good pace, heading home and "in a happy place", I constantly monitored my fuel consumption. I was very pleased by the fuel remaining and so had passed identified back-up fuel stops. I had 10 miles to Winnemucca, my planned preferred gas stop, and the fuel gauge showed 1/4 tank remaining. Must have had a tail wind! Cool....

Sputter, sputter, sputter.... well, let's just park here on the side of the road.

WTF....out of gas!

My LT being new, the pace I ride at, me being fairly large 6'4", 260#, rather wide across the shoulders and sitting very tall in the saddle got the worst mileage of the entire Posse. Everyone made it to the fuel stop I was going to.

After an hour on the side of the road one of them returned with fuel (thank John R!) and I made it as well.....sheepish and the recipient of a lot of good natured ribbing.

The bike went into the shop the next day. The fuel gauge float tube had collapsed on the meter ball and caused the sending unit to give bad information. The dealer confirmed that the rain water had been picked up and clogged the Canister. The vacuum created had caused the problem and that the vacuum created by the clogged Canister can be so pronounced as to collapse the fuel tank as well.

Needless to say, the day I got the bike back, the Canister was removed.

In short, the environmental benefit of the Canister is philosophical and, by any measure, trivial. The benefit of removing the Canister is practical and, by my experience, significant.

.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

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Last edited by BillyOmaha; Jul 28th, 2006 at 10:28 am. Reason: change the subject line so it will get a hit in a "Search".
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post #6 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 9:33 am
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We have a 9,000 mile ride scheduled for this summer................
I removed the cannister because I don't want to do it under an overpass in the rain.........................

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post #7 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 9:38 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
Howdy Florian and to all those that may be questioning this advise as well,

I remember the reluctance I had to "modifying" anything on the magnificent machine that I had just purchased back in '04. Many members of the Posse had told me to "do a Canisterectomy" and I, as it is in my nature to do, questioned the wisdom of removing an integral part of the system for something that was described as a "potential" issue. Besides, my bike was brand new and was probably better than previous models, right?

I put off doing anything rash, figured I'd think about it awhile.

While riding back from the '04 CCR in a 2 hour, 35 degree (gotta love the electric vests), rain and hail downpour the bike performed fantastically. Got into Wendover, NV (a la Burt Munro) with no problem. NO PROBLEMS at ALL.

The next morning, after joining back up with the Posse, we gassed up and headed out across the dessert. I had run the numbers on distance and mileage and planned on getting gas just West of Battle Mountain. It was the "tightest" leg, but should have been reachable if performance was as expected.

Fuel in the desserts of Nevada is not scarce, but is restricted to very specific locations. If in doubt, then you gas up. Riding along at a good pace, heading home and "in a happy place", I constantly monitored my fuel consumption. I was very pleased by the fuel remaining and so had passed identified back-up fuel stops. I had 10 miles to Winnemucca, my planned preferred gas stop, and the fuel gauge showed 1/4 tank remaining. Must have had a tail wind! Cool....

Sputter, sputter, sputter.... well, let's just park here on the side of the road.

WTF....out of gas!

My LT being new, the pace I ride at, me being fairly large 6'4", 260#, rather wide across the shoulders and sitting very tall in the saddle got the worst mileage of the entire Posse. Everyone made it to the fuel stop I was going to.

After an hour on the side of the road one of them returned with fuel (thank John R!) and I made it as well.....sheepish and the recipient of a lot of good natured ribbing.

The bike went into the shop the next day. The fuel gauge float tube had collapsed on the meter ball and caused the sending unit to give bad information. The dealer confirmed that the rain water had been picked up and clogged the Canister. The vacuum created had caused the problem and that the vacuum created by the clogged Canister can be so pronounced as to collapse the fuel tank as well.

Needless to say, the day I got the bike back, the Canister was removed.

In short, the environmental benefit of the Canister is philosophical and, by any measure, trivial. The benefit of removing the Canister is practical and, by my experience, significant.

.
Bill,

That was well spoken. I will do the cannisterectomy this weekend.

Best,

F
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post #8 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 9:49 am
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Canisterectomy

Ok where are the instructions (with pics I hope) on how to do a canisterectomy?

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post #9 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 10:13 am
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A search wil do it but.....................
Basically, from the rear looking forward, disconnect the hose on the right side of the bike from the cannister and route to drain overboard.(it's your new drain)
disconnect the hose on the left side of the bike from the cannister and insert a bolt/screw into it to seal the opening.
remove cannister and remaining attached hose by cliping straps....................
The cannioster is accessed by removing rear seat and top box but....I was lazy and just removed the rear seat and pulled the hoses off with a l-o-n-g needle nose and left the cannister for whenever I was in there for something else..

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post #10 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 10:23 am Thread Starter
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Correct me if Im wrong.

Standing at the back of the bike, the cannister has 3 hoses: 2 on the right side, 1 on the left. The 2 on the rt. side have a front (towards front of cannister and rear, near middle of cannister. I assume that the front-most hose is the one from the tank that becomes the new drain and that that center (rear) hose comes out with the cannister upon removal. The left hand hose gets the screw stuffed into it.

F
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post #11 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 10:58 am
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Has anyone attempted to re-route or otherwise modify the hose that picks up water? Is it the hose itself that clogs, or the cannister? Water (alone) would not clog the hose if there is lower air pressure in the cannister, no? It just would get sucked into the cannister, seems to me. Is it a combination of water/sludge that clogs the system? Would a simple filter keep out the sludge (change filter at maintenance times)? Shorter hose (not so vulnerable to picking up water and/or sludge)? Longer hose with the tip angled up?

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post #12 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 12:01 pm
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The BEST instructions for removing the canister .........

Quote:
Originally Posted by STARFIGHTER
A search wil do it but.....................
Basically, from the rear looking forward, disconnect the hose on the right side of the bike from the cannister and route to drain overboard.(it's your new drain)
disconnect the hose on the left side of the bike from the cannister and insert a bolt/screw into it to seal the opening.
remove cannister and remaining attached hose by cliping straps....................
The cannioster is accessed by removing rear seat and top box but....I was lazy and just removed the rear seat and pulled the hoses off with a l-o-n-g needle nose and left the cannister for whenever I was in there for something else..
By far, the best instructions for doing this simple task. I waited till I had 24,000 miles but did not wish to gamble any more.

Dano
Tampa, Fl.

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post #13 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 12:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsciullo
take it to the Ohio tech session (see Mid-West) and do it there. I had it done there last month. With a bunch of really good wrenches around it took about 30 mins (includes BS time, lighting each other on fire, tool searchs and general tomfoolery when you get a group like this together).
J
Yea, lets do that. I'll probably do mine there. Howard or anyone else who attended last session, should I bring anything with me to complete this job? Hose plugging bolt, RTV, Hose clamps? Just curious.

John

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post #14 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 12:45 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by was
Has anyone attempted to re-route or otherwise modify the hose that picks up water? Is it the hose itself that clogs, or the cannister? Water (alone) would not clog the hose if there is lower air pressure in the cannister, no? It just would get sucked into the cannister, seems to me. Is it a combination of water/sludge that clogs the system? Would a simple filter keep out the sludge (change filter at maintenance times)? Shorter hose (not so vulnerable to picking up water and/or sludge)? Longer hose with the tip angled up?
Okay....for the sake of this argument, say you're correct about a solution to the rain water cause. The problem is that "rain water" is not the only source of the clogging.
-Drop the bike and gas can flow through the tube to the canister and clog it up.
-When filling your gas tank, and we all want to get the maximum on-board, the fuel can flow into the canister and clog it up. This can be user error, or a failed auto-shut off on the nozzle.

I very strongly desire to protect the environment and was quite hesitant to perform the change. But I have yet to have anyone explain to my why this canister is necessary, other than because of EPA bureaucratic fiat. Vapor loss prevention sounds excellent and in theory I'm all for it. But in this application, if the system is "closed" by removing the canister, how much of an increase in the fuel/vapor discharge be? No one I have heard has said it can be anything greater than a miniscule amount. The gas burned by my m/c buddies picking up gas for me, the NV policeman hovering nearby to make sure I was okay on the side of the road, probably produced more pollution in that one hour than that canister will prevent in many years of proper operation.

To me it's a balance of the risks with rewards and making a decision. For me, the choice was obvious.

.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05

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Last edited by BillyOmaha; Jul 28th, 2006 at 12:51 pm.
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post #15 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 1:22 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
But in this application, if the system is "closed" by removing the canister, how much of an increase in the fuel/vapor discharge be? No one I have heard has said it can be anything greater than a miniscule amount.
If the system was "closed" you would collapse the fuel tank. You are now venting volatile gasoline vapors into the atmosphere and contributing to global warming, the loss of ozone, causing pre-mature balding, stunting the growth of the snail darter, etc... need I go on?

I do find it interesting how this group jumps on a CD copier for violating federal copyright laws but laughs in the face of violating federal emissions laws.

Now I will crawl back into my hole.

John
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post #16 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 2:13 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsciullo
...includes BS time, lighting each other on fire, tool searchs and general tomfoolery when you get a group like this together
That is funny.

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post #17 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 2:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
If the system was "closed" you would collapse the fuel tank. You are now venting volatile gasoline vapors into the atmosphere and contributing to global warming, the loss of ozone, causing pre-mature balding, stunting the growth of the snail darter, etc... need I go on?

I do find it interesting how this group jumps on a CD copier for violating federal copyright laws but laughs in the face of violating federal emissions laws.

Now I will crawl back into my hole.
I am concerned about balding and the snail darter too ,but, seriously and no "scoffing" involved, IN THIS APPLICATION ONLY, what do you think the "net" additional contribution of gasoline vapor by removing the canister is to the environment?

Over the lifetime of an LT I would be stunned if the net increase was greater than the running one gasoline powered lawn mower for 1 hour.

.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

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post #18 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 2:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
Okay....for the sake of this argument, say you're correct about a solution to the rain water cause. The problem is that "rain water" is not the only source of the clogging.
-Drop the bike and gas can flow through the tube to the canister and clog it up.
-When filling your gas tank, and we all want to get the maximum on-board, the fuel can flow into the canister and clog it up. This can be user error, or a failed auto-shut off on the nozzle.


Believe me, I'm not trying to start or engage in an argument, just trying to learn from those who are more experienced. For instance, I had not known about gas flowing into the cannister and clogging it, so thanks for that info. It broadens what I intended my original question to be: what are the sources of the clogging, where in the system do the clogs appear, and has anyone attempted other remedies than cannisterectomy?

Bill
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post #19 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 4:23 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
IN THIS APPLICATION ONLY, what do you think the "net" additional contribution of gasoline vapor by removing the canister is to the environment?

Over the lifetime of an LT I would be stunned if the net increase was greater than the running one gasoline powered lawn mower for 1 hour.

.

Oh I agree... its not like there 40 million LTs out there. The first hiccup (or next time I am in there for some other reason) it is outta here.

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post #20 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 4:35 pm
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Pull off the top box the other day to see how "Lola" handled,very nice I might add!! Sence I was half way there I just removed the canister too. Riding 1500 mile round trip to do a 1000 mile IronButt, don't need any unwanted breakdowns that can be avoided in advance

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post #21 of 24 Old Jul 28th, 2006, 6:01 pm Thread Starter
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cannisterectomy---DONE! Took about 25 minutes start to finish.


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post #22 of 24 Old Aug 7th, 2006, 10:03 am
 
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I must be missing something here but I just removed the cannister from my 03 LTC with 45000 miles on the odo. When I removed the right side hose( right side while standing in the back looking forward) I found it goes to the drain located next to the gas fill cap.(please don't ask how I found out) does this line also vent the fuel tank? If so then where does the other one (left side) go to. I rerouted both lines and left both open for fear of destroying something expensive. I've ridden approx 100 miles and everything seems fine. If I've done a no-no please let me know.
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post #23 of 24 Old Aug 7th, 2006, 3:09 pm
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post #24 of 24 Old Aug 7th, 2006, 3:42 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
The left hand hose gets the screw stuffed into it.

F
I always use a golf Tee simply because it fills the tube completely. Now, this can be quite a bitch as I don't golf and I look horrible in plaids and pastels.



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