Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 1:55 pm Thread Starter
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Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

The US government EPA has recently approved the use of a 15% alcohol (ethanol) gasoline blend. Most vehicle manufacturers will void warranties for vehicles 2012 and older if this blend is used. This brings to mind some questions:
1. How will this effect my 2000 LT?
2. Would the use of gas additives such as Startron, Seafoam, etc., reduce or eliminate the potential harm if I am forced to use this gas blend?
3. Can I proactively change vulnerable parts, seals, etc., in order to prevent damage?
4. Could a new computer chip for the LT be programmed to use this gas blend?
5.What do my fellow forum members think? Am I once again overly alarmed like I was during the Y2K situation?
6. Does this mean that the action of the US government inadvertantly will lead to hardships of owners of older vehicles which includes all the BMW K1200 LT's ever made?

Click on the following hyperlink in order to view a good discussion of this topic:
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post #2 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 2:14 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Wayne View Post
The US government EPA has recently approved the use of a 15% alcohol (ethanol) gasoline blend. Most vehicle manufacturers will void warranties for vehicles 2012 and older if this blend is used. This brings to mind some questions:
1. How will this effect my 2000 LT?
2. Would the use of gas additives such as Startron, Seafoam, etc., reduce or eliminate the potential harm if I am forced to use this gas blend?
3. Can I proactively change vulnerable parts, seals, etc., in order to prevent damage?
4. Could a new computer chip for the LT be programmed to use this gas blend?
5.What do my fellow forum members think? Am I once again overly alarmed like I was during the Y2K situation?
6. Does this mean that the action of the US government inadvertantly will lead to hardships of owners of older vehicles which includes all the BMW K1200 LT's ever made?
I won't get into the politics of this, but I used to work for an outdoor equipment manufacturer that used a lot of small engines. The warranty on those will be void if fuel over E10 is used. Not only does it eat away at a lot of rubber seals (dries them out), it burns hotter than no ethanol grades which will cause its own set of issues.

First thing in the LT that I could see going would be the rubber hoses connecting the filter inside the fuel tank. I don't know if they are rated for that high of an ethanol content. Next would be the fuel lines for the same reason. If the plastic quick connects haven't been replaced yet, I am sure this will do them in so metal ones would be in order.

Personally I downloaded a free app for my phone that shows me non-ethanol fuel in my area. It is called Pure Gas. Does a great job. Most of the time it means I have to drive a bit to fill up, but to me it is worth it to get non-ethanol fuel in my tank (and give me a good reason to roll on down the road!)

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

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post #3 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 2:19 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

I think that the most immediate response to E15 is to not buy it if at all possible.
Non ethanol gasoline is actually becoming More available in Oregon, but that's probably not the case in many states. Pure Gas . org has a smart phone App that helps allot with finding non E gas.

E15 will not make your K1200 run any better.... & if you look up the MSDS for Sea foam, Star Stuff, Sta-Bil, or other additives, you'll find that it is mostly made of paint thinner, Iso Alcohol, Diesel fuel (light oil), naphtha, insecticide...Etc... and proprietary stuff that doesn't need to be listed because it's not "harmful". I don't know if they help or not.

I'm beginning to think that our only hope, as motorists, is going to be something like this=
https://movetoamend.org/

Rand & Susan Hawksworth
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post #4 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 2:34 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Wayne View Post
The US government EPA has recently approved the use of a 15% alcohol (ethanol) gasoline blend.
I believe that EPA approved E-15 during 2012, so, unless you just found this information posted within the past week (please share if so), I would not be worried about it. Please go to the following EPA website and see that motorcycles are excluded.
E15: Frequently Asked Questions | E15 (a blend of gasoline and ethanol) | Fuels & Fuel Additives | US EPA
Here is some additional information from the EPA website:
Recent Activities

On February 7, 2013, EPA approved a new blender pump configuration, submitted by the Renewable Fuels Association, for general use by retail stations that wish to dispense E15 and E10 from a common hose and nozzle. For more information, please see the Misfueling Mitigation Plans page.
On June 15, 2012, EPA approved the first plans for satisfying the misfueling mitigation conditions of the E15 partial waivers. For more information, please see the Misfueling Mitigation Plans page.
On May 24, 2012, EPA approved the RFG Survey Association’s E15 Survey Compliance Plan for the remainder of 2012. For more information, please see the E15 Survey Plan page.
On April 2, 2012, EPA approved the first applications for registering ethanol for use in making E15. For more information, please see the E15 Registration page and the Registration and Health Effects Testing page.
On March 15, 2012, EPA informed the Renewable Fuels Association by letter that its Model E15 Misfueling Mitigation Plan would generally be sufficient to satisfy the partial waivers’ requirement for a misfueling mitigation plan. For more information, please see the Misfueling Mitigation Plans page.
On February 17, 2012, EPA released an evaluation of information submitted by the Renewable Fuels Association and Growth Energy for satisfying the emissions and health effects data requirements for registration of E15. The Evaluation Document concludes that the submission would be sufficient to satisfy those requirements. Fuel and fuel additive manufacturers who wish to register E15 may choose to rely on the submission for completing their applications.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #5 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 3:13 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

As mentioned this is old news. Do not use it in your bike if you find it at a station. VW and many other car manufacture warranties are void if used. It is nasty in small engines and the EPA knows this and has not approved it for this use. It is unlikely that it will become the normal available fuel. There is nothing you can add to it to make it acceptable in your bike.

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post #6 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 3:24 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
Please go to the following EPA website and see that motorcycles are excluded.
E15: Frequently Asked Questions | E15 (a blend of gasoline and ethanol) | Fuels & Fuel Additives | US EPA
Here is some additional information from the EPA website:
Recent Activities

On February 7, 2013, EPA approved a new blender pump configuration, submitted by the Renewable Fuels Association, for general use by retail stations that wish to dispense E15 and E10 from a common hose and nozzle. For more information, please see the Misfueling Mitigation Plans page.
Although motorcycle are excluded - that doesn't mean your local fuel station will be carrying no ethanol or E10. I used to hate running through Milwaukee County in WI because county legislation required E10. After I found that out, I would make sure to fill up before I drove there.

Unless they come out with a mixer pump that mixes at the pump handle, you have no clue what the person ahead of you got and If they pumped E85 and then you roll up wanting to put in a few gallons of E10, you are going to get the E85 left in the hose which may be a reasonable volume.

Worst part is, the ethanol doesn't decrease emissions realistically. The emissions are decreased by approximately the same amount as the fuel mileage so it requires more fuel to go the same distance...which increases the emissions to approximately the same amount again. Not to mention the emissions of the ethanol refineries which some were shut down in WI because they were in some major violations.

OK - getting off my soap box now....sorry.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

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post #7 of 23 Old Jan 15th, 2015, 5:08 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

There is major opposition to E15- without sounding like a stumping politician, I hope everyone is a member of the AMA- like BOAT/US fighting for boaters' rights in Washington the AMA fights for us. Membership is not expensive and your membership counts.
OK, I'll step down from the soap box now- but please join if you are not a member
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post #8 of 23 Old Jan 17th, 2015, 12:59 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

This is old news. E85 was approved in 2012 for flex fuel vehicles as stated above. But. Anywhere I have seen E85.It has been a separate pump. And as stated. Motorcycles are excluded. I would say obviously steer clear of it.

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post #9 of 23 Old Jan 17th, 2015, 1:14 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

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This is old news. E85 was approved in 2012 for flex fuel vehicles as stated above. But. Anywhere I have seen E85.It has been a separate pump. And as stated. Motorcycles are excluded. I would say obviously steer clear of it.
E85 is off the charts. it is 85% alcohol and your bike won't run on it and is for flex vehicles as you say. Totally different from the E15 discussion.

Beech
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post #10 of 23 Old Jan 17th, 2015, 2:40 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

When out West last summer I needed gas so I pulled into a gas station out in South Dakota. All they had was E85. Put it in bike. Started out on Interstate 90. I buddy also filled up with his Ultra Glide. My bike is a 2000 KLT like yours.
Four miles down the road, I thought my bike was going to blow up. lost power, jerking, not smooth. In a word terrible. Fortunately, another off ramp produced another gas station. I took that cr-- gas out and put in premium 10% ethanol that I usually put in. After running for a few minutes and burning the other bad stuff out of the lines, the LT ran great again. The Harley also ran as mine did. Our fantastic government is watching out for us. yeah, right.. In a Nutshell..
DON'T EVER, EVER USE E85 IN THE LT.
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post #11 of 23 Old Jan 17th, 2015, 5:43 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

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E85 is off the charts. it is 85% alcohol and your bike won't run on it and is for flex vehicles as you say. Totally different from the E15 discussion.
That is correct E85 is 85% alcohol & E15 is 15% alcohol.

Dave Selvig
2004 Black LT
2000 Canon Red LT



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post #12 of 23 Old Jan 17th, 2015, 8:19 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Correct.My misprint.

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post #13 of 23 Old Jan 19th, 2015, 2:41 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/...gementId=73339

U.S. Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) introduced H.R. 21 on Jan. 6. This bill would repeal the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s waiver decision related to E15 fuel and the authority of the agency to grant further decisions in the matter, until the EPA seeks an independent scientific analysis of the effects of gasoline containing up to 15 percent ethanol.

“Despite ample warnings, the Environment Protection Agency continues to push E15 into the marketplace. The Clean Air Act requires a waiver for any fuel that is substantially different from zero percent ethanol before it is introduced to consumers,” Sensenbrenner said. “The EPA has been granting CAA waivers and justifying the decisions by citing a single disputed study conducted by the Department of Energy.

“Pro-ethanol groups and the EPA argue that E15 has been sufficiently tested and safe for use, a direct contradiction to what the scientists and engineers who build cars and small engines have stated,” he added.

Sensenbrenner said, “Our constituents use boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles, cars, lawnmowers and tractors. They deserve to definitively know what E15 will do to the engines they rely upon.”

The AMA agrees and has repeatedly expressed concerns to government officials and federal lawmakers about possible damage to motorcycle and all-terrain-vehicle engines caused by the inadvertent use of E15 when the new fuel becomes widely available. The AMA also asked that motorcycles and ATVs be part of any scientific study into the effects of E15 on internal combustion engines and related systems.

In October 2010, the EPA approved E15 for use in model year 2007 and newer light-duty vehicles (cars, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles). In January 2011, it added model year 2001-2006 light-duty vehicles to the approved list.

Since the approved list includes many light-duty vehicles in use today, refineries, distributors, and fueling stations could choose to offer primarily E15 gasoline. This concerns all motorcyclists and off-highway enthusiasts, because it could affect the availability of gasoline with less ethanol (E10) or none at all (E0).

The new E15 gasoline formulation may appear at a nearby fueling station, so motorcyclists need to be careful when fueling their motor vehicles. No motorcycles or ATVs are currently on the approved EPA list for E15 use, and the use of E15 can void manufacturers’ warranties.

We need your help to pass H.R. 21. You can send a prewritten email to your representative immediately by following the link below and entering your information.

https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/...gementId=73339

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post #14 of 23 Old Jan 19th, 2015, 7:19 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Signed and Sent.

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post #15 of 23 Old Jan 20th, 2015, 1:42 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Sent. Thanx for the info. Don't know why we still need to add ethanol in our fuels we have a glutt of reserves and more oil in the usa then we can consume.

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post #16 of 23 Old Jan 20th, 2015, 5:03 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

signed & sent.
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post #17 of 23 Old Jan 20th, 2015, 5:38 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

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Sent. Thanx for the info. Don't know why we still need to add ethanol in our fuels we have a glutt of reserves and more oil in the usa then we can consume.
It is a political thing supporting corn growers. Never was a good idea.

Beech
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post #18 of 23 Old Jan 22nd, 2015, 11:40 am
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

To go back to the non ethanol gas would need a complete revamp of the refineries, something the refinery owners and the EPA are against. So I think we are stuck with it for now.

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post #19 of 23 Old Jan 22nd, 2015, 6:39 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

I agreed with CaptLen. Join the AMA and help them in the fight against E85 gas and other causes they fight on our behalf every day.

Marty Blok
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post #20 of 23 Old Jan 22nd, 2015, 9:10 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

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To go back to the non ethanol gas would need a complete revamp of the refineries, something the refinery owners and the EPA are against. So I think we are stuck with it for now.
Ethanol is added separate. Once gas is in the tanker they mix in the ethanol. Refineries still refine gasoline. Ethanol is refined or produced at different locations then trucked or railed to the fuel depots. A big waste of resources for a political scam. They can just load up the gas in the tanker without the ethanol if they really cared about the people's interest and the the farmers pockets.

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post #21 of 23 Old Jan 23rd, 2015, 2:59 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Sent. Thanks...

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post #22 of 23 Old Jan 24th, 2015, 2:38 am
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

As a piece of info - maybe of some interest. Couple of Beemers here in Finland have so far been equipped with "Flexifuel" conversion kits. Another one of those is 2005-LT. Waiting for spring to see how she runs on E85 (i.e 85% alcohol). The experiences of older K1100 with same kit already one summer behind it are good. Of course one has to be aware of the possible negative effects on rubber hoses and change engine oil more frequently.

So experiment starting....

Born to be wild so why not

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post #23 of 23 Old Jan 24th, 2015, 11:17 pm
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Re: Alcohol 15% Gas Blend - What Now?

Sent.
After typing in your info, AMA links the form to the correct Rep for your state.
Here's a direct link to the AMA website page. www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/issueslegislation
Will forward this to other motorcycle sites I'm on.

This fuel reeks havoc on small engines (mowers, blowers, weed wackers, edgers, etc). Seems like every other year I'm replacing gas lines, primer bulbs, cleaning carbs...

Didn't know about the "Pure gas" app. Will be downloading that next.
Here's a link to their website. http://www.pure-gas.org/
Thanks, Ken


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