2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 15Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 2:22 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

I am used to being able to turn the key, hit the starter button and having my 2003 fire right up and within seconds, go into a steady idle even with temperatures in the teens. Recently purchased a 2005 and found that I need to crank on it for 3-5 seconds and normally have to give it a little throttle to get it started. I typically keep the RPMs about 1500 for 10 - 15 seconds before letting it go to normal idle but notice that until the engine gets warm, it is a little doggy. Never had that issue on the '03.

Is there anything that can be done? Was there some change in the engines between '03 and '05? I thought it was just a different chip programming.
MotorCityBear likes this.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 3:37 pm
Senior Member
 
mtrevelino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Williamsburg, VA, USA
Posts: 2,554
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

First thing I would try is disconnecting the battery for a couple of hours. When you reconnect the battery, turn the key on BUT DO NOT START THE BIKE, completely open and close the throttle three times, shut the key off, turn the key back on and start your bike. Hopefully this will take care of your issue.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mtrevelino is offline  
post #3 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 4:22 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
First thing I would try is disconnecting the battery for a couple of hours. When you reconnect the battery, turn the key on BUT DO NOT START THE BIKE, completely open and close the throttle three times, shut the key off, turn the key back on and start your bike. Hopefully this will take care of your issue.
I'll give that a shot. Definitely the easy path first. I want to move my Battery Tender lead over to the 2005 anyway so this will be a good opportunity.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
 
post #4 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 4:51 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 230
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
I am used to being able to turn the key, hit the starter button and having my 2003 fire right up and within seconds, go into a steady idle even with temperatures in the teens. Recently purchased a 2005 and found that I need to crank on it for 3-5 seconds and normally have to give it a little throttle to get it started. I typically keep the RPMs about 1500 for 10 - 15 seconds before letting it go to normal idle but notice that until the engine gets warm, it is a little doggy. Never had that issue on the '03.

Is there anything that can be done? Was there some change in the engines between '03 and '05? I thought it was just a different chip programming.
Spark Plugs?
Fresh Oil?
Battery?
Valve Lash?

2006 LT
Magnesium Shwarz Metalic
Bountiful, Utah
2006lt is offline  
post #5 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 4:59 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006lt View Post
Spark Plugs?
Fresh Oil?
Battery?
Valve Lash?
20k miles on the bike so I will be doing the 24k maintenance next spring. At that time I will be changing plugs, checking valves and changing oil. Was told the battery was new this past spring but will throw the battery tender on it when I have it disconnected to try mtrevelino's suggestion.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #6 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 5:18 pm
Senior Member
 
Axle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: portland, victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,485
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

plugs ? old fuel ? vacuum leak?

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
1976 Datsun 260Z
1989 Nissan 300zx TT
Axle is offline  
post #7 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 5:42 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle View Post
plugs ? old fuel ? vacuum leak?
I can rule out fuel (I believe). Just ran it down to 1/8 tank and then filled it with premium no ethanol fuel and put in Sea-Foam.

Wouldn't a vacuum leak also run rough when warm?

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by rdepas; Dec 10th, 2014 at 5:51 pm.
rdepas is offline  
post #8 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 5:58 pm
Senior Member
 
Axle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: portland, victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,485
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

mmm not many miles on the bike. I would take all the plastic off and have a good look around with a torch. also if you do this drop a new filter in the tank and check the air filter, you wont have to do it next spring. it will only take a couple of hours, I think unless you change the fuel filter even for elimination purposes now, you can't tell if that is the real cause of the probem. resetting the tps will be immediate if that is the problem but it will relearn slowly anyway.

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
1976 Datsun 260Z
1989 Nissan 300zx TT
Axle is offline  
post #9 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 6:02 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

I was thinking about pulling the tank when I wire up my autoswitch so that would be a great time to replace the fuel and air filters. Just got done doing a major service on my '03 so that is all fresh in my mind. I'll have to order up an air filter though. No place ot get them local.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #10 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 6:03 pm
cws
Senior Member
 
cws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,183
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Agree with Axle and mtrevellino, try a TPS reset first ... and see if it helps any.
From the FAQ
What is this TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) reset I keep hearing about?
There is an area in the Motronic that can store slight alterations to the fuel mapping based upon the information it "learns" from your driving habits. This is why the characteristics of you bike may change substantially when the battery is disconnected for an extended period. All of the information that the Motronic has "learned" is lost. It will "learn" all over again after some driving but initially there will be a change. One of the things that BMW suggests is a TPS reset after the battery has been disconnected for an extended period. This procedure that we have all talked about on a number of occasions is to turn the ignition on, not start the bike and rotate the throttle from fully closed to wide open two full times. This gives the Motronic minimum and maximum values of the TPS to use as a starting point. From there it can begin to "learn" the optimum F.I. programming. None of this will affect the ignition timing, only the fuel mixture. This mapping and the slight alterations that the Motronic has "learned" is used across the range of engine operations. Contrary to what some have said a chip doesn't "kick in" at some specific RPM. The Motronic does shut off the fuel injectors until approximately 1500-1700 RPM while decelerating as long as the throttle is closed but they begin operating again as soon as this RPM threshold is passed or the throttle is opened.

Chris
Sydney, NSW
2005 Dark Graphite Metallic K1200LT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2005 Orient Blue Metallic K1200GT SE
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(sold 2019)
2000 Red Honda CB250 (the toy)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ulysses #45310
GS911


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

cws is offline  
post #11 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 6:05 pm
Senior Member
 
Axle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: portland, victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,485
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

I wouldn't worry about changing the air filter, unless the bike has been in real dusty conditions, just blow it out, I find they last twice as long as the recommended change, but it's your call

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
1976 Datsun 260Z
1989 Nissan 300zx TT
Axle is offline  
post #12 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 6:06 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cws View Post
Agree with Axle and mtrevellino, try a TPS reset first ... and see if it helps any.
That is definitely the easiest thing to try. I'll know very quickly if that helps. Would love to get this things starting like my '03.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #13 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 7:18 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pelham, AL, United States
Posts: 530
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

I have found my '05 starts easier when it is cold (less than freezing) on regular fuel than it does with premium. My '02 didn't have any cold temp. starting problems. Fortunately, we don't get too many cold days here in middle AL. Had a wonderful ride in to the shop this morning at 40 degrees.

_____________

Kim Thomson
Motorcycle Cigar Smoker
05 K1200LT - The Golden Rocket Ship
91 K100RS - The White Stallion
85 K100 Standard - Big Red
79 R65 - "The Bee" is a buzzin' again!
06 525i - Premium, Sport, Comfort, Xenons

Gone, but not forgotten...
02 K1200LTC - Big Blue (accident at 40k)
88 K100RT - Chocolate (it was brown, melted - fire)
85 K100RT - (wore out)
82 Yamaha Vision - (electrics)
72 Yamaha R5C 350 - (broke trans)
alabrew is offline  
post #14 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 7:57 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
deanwoolsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Topeka, KS, USA
Posts: 3,105
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Check your fuel rail pressure. I would suspect low fuel pressure from your symptoms as long as the bike runs ok when it's warmed up. Rail should be at about 51 PSI.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
deanwoolsey is offline  
post #15 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 7:59 pm
Senior Member
 
azccj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Glendale, AZ, US
Posts: 181
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

My 05 starts the same regardless of outside temp. Fires right up and idles just like it should.

Current Bikes

2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2013 Suzuki Burgman 650, Ya it's a scooter but it will do over 100 MPH
2005 BMW K1200LT
2004 BMW R1150RT
1972 Moto Guzzi Eldorado
azccj is offline  
post #16 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 8:45 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey View Post
Check your fuel rail pressure. I would suspect low fuel pressure from your symptoms as long as the bike runs ok when it's warmed up. Rail should be at about 51 PSI.
Don't have a clue how to do that or what tools I would need for it. Is that something in the Clymers manual?

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #17 of 369 Old Dec 10th, 2014, 8:48 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by azccj View Post
My 05 starts the same regardless of outside temp. Fires right up and idles just like it should.
That is the way my '03 is. Fires up at 17 degrees the same at 97 degrees. Hope to get the '05 to do the same.

Have the battery disconnected right now to do the TPS reset. I am hoping for the easy fix. Have the battery on the battery Tender as well. I could swap batteries between them just to see, but it turns over fine so I doubt it is a battery issue.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #18 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 8:21 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

TPS reset didn't do it. Sitting in a 55 degree garage it started with no extra throttle given after giving it about 4 seconds of starter. Then it died about 4 or 5 seconds later. Started again with no extra throttle with about 2-3 seconds of starter. Ran out of time to mess with it last night. Will swap the batteries just to see if it makes any difference. If not...looks like I may be tearing into it a bit more.

One more thing I was thinking of while falling asleep that I wanted to add in case it aids in troubleshooting... When it does start and I let it idle with no extra throttle, it is a little rough and the tach will vary between 900-1000 RPM. When driving away initially I have to give it extra throttle (~1700 RPM) or it will die. After a few minutes of riding it will idle smoothly and I can pull away from a stop sign with very little throttle (~1200 RPM).

In contrast, my '03 will start basically instantly when the starter is pressed and will jump to about 1400 RPM and within a second or two will settle into a smooth idle about 950 RPM. Rolling out is the same cold or warn with about 1200 RPM when letting out the clutch.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #19 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 9:19 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

sounds like engine temp sensor is bad

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #20 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 9:26 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
sounds like engine temp sensor is bad
Is there a way to check that?

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #21 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 9:35 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

info posted by Sailor


you can meaThe engine temp sensor used by the fuel-management system (Motronic) is located into the rearmost cylinder head (cylinder #4 ). Although you can check its resistance (OhmMeter) at various engine temp, you cannot easily cool it for a test (unless you remove it).

If you remove it you will loose coolant while it is removed, so might as well change coolant for maintenance at same time. For 2 minutes, screw-out old one, install new one, you will loose only a very small amount of coolant.

See this Picassa photo album that explain in pictures (and some text attached to some pictures) how you can test "roughly". Pictures done on a K1200RS, so on your K1200LT there is a bit more fairing to remove - sensor, wire and connector is located at same place for K1200LT of 2005+ (earlier model have connector a bit lower).
https://plus.google.com/photos/10148...82307964672065

Best test would be to remove it and cool it in fridge, but as I said above this is a bit more trouble than just testing in a static manner when bike is cold in morning.

Keep in mind that these temp sensor do NOT fail often, so this is not the most probable cause. When engine is cold, If stater is working well but engine seems not to get enough gaz (firing a bit -OR- firing but dying), then it is possible the sensor is giving false data (resistance) to Motronic-ECU.

**** IMPORTANT: Ignition should be OFF while doing these OhmMeter tests (you are only testing resistance of the sensor).

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in celcius) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
8 .......... 4000
10 .......... 3880
14 .......... 3290
20 .......... 2570
25 .......... 2130
30 .......... 1760
35 .......... 1462
45 .......... 1049
55 .......... 727
65 .......... 540
75 .......... 392
85 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
95 .......... 229
105 ..(fans activated temp).. 187
Share
Share this post on Digg
Del.icio.us
Technorati
Twitter
| Like __________________


.

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #22 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 9:38 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
you can measure resistance, both JZ and Sailor have posted resistance in threads on problems with it, it is on cylinder head at rear.
Great. I'll do a search to find the ohm readings I should see.

EDIT: Thanks Gary. I just ran across that post before I looked back here to see you kindly posted it for me. I'll pull off a few panels tonight and check that out.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by rdepas; Dec 11th, 2014 at 10:21 am.
rdepas is offline  
post #23 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 2:30 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Great. I'll do a search to find the ohm readings I should see.

EDIT: Thanks Gary. I just ran across that post before I looked back here to see you kindly posted it for me. I'll pull off a few panels tonight and check that out.

When GARY posted my old message with Picassa photo album link, it appear that this links bring you to some new Picassa home page for me.

In order NOT to confuse test of engine temp sensor (for fuel management) with the other sensor (only for gauge on dash), use this link to go direct to correct picture album.
https://plus.google.com/photos/10148...82307964672065

Keep in mind that pictures were taken on a K1200RS, so on your K1200LT, the sensor connector to open (for Ohms test) will be also on LEFT but a bit lower (same shape as in picture). Ignition OFF as you are only testing for resistance. With engine "stone" cold, any temps below 20 C (70 F) you should read above 2500 Ohms as published in earlier post.

If that test, with engine cold is not conclusive based on values previously posted, I would ALSO look for an air-leak around throttle-bodies for your problem:
(A) 4 small vacuum line
(B) 4 rubber stub/spacers beteen engine and throttle-bodies
(C) 4 O-ring under intake manifolds

All these rubber items have caused problem with age on the K1200 platform. An air leak creates a leaner mixture that may cause these issues when cold.

Ideally, you would have access to GS911 to confirm any fault codes in memory for the Motronic (EFI system). Otherwise you need dealer's computer to read faults.
The GS911 will also tell "in real time" what are the temperature readings for both:
- Air-temp-Sensor (in air-box) and
- the engine temp-sensor
This leads to an easy confirmation both hot and cold - even with engine running on center-stand and warming up.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."

Last edited by sailor; Dec 11th, 2014 at 2:40 pm.
sailor is offline  
post #24 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 2:48 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Thanks John. I'll take a look at it tonight and see what I can come up with. Hopefully I don't have to start tearing off the manifold but if it comes to that...

I do have a buddy with a GS911 so I am sure I can borrow it to read my codes. I don't think it takes away one of the 10 registrations to just read codes.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #25 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 3:48 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Thanks John. I'll take a look at it tonight and see what I can come up with. Hopefully I don't have to start tearing off the manifold but if it comes to that...

I do have a buddy with a GS911 so I am sure I can borrow it to read my codes. I don't think it takes away one of the 10 registrations to just read codes.
There is no registration limit for these items:
(1) reading fault code,
(2) clearing fault code,
(3) reading real-time values.
In fact most of the advanced functionality limits apply ONLY to later bikes having CAN-BUS (like resetting service warnings).

See this page from GS911 creator (HEXCODE). Pay attention to last few paragraphs:
VINlimit ? HEX Code

Only confusion I see on that page is difference in using the PC-based-Windows access (like I always do with mine) -versus- Bluetooth/Wifi mobile version. Not 100% clear if that has an impact on the so-called " Emergency functionality".

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #26 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 8:19 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Thanks John. I'll take a look at it tonight and see what I can come up with. Hopefully I don't have to start tearing off the manifold but if it comes to that...

I do have a buddy with a GS911 so I am sure I can borrow it to read my codes. I don't think it takes away one of the 10 registrations to just read codes.
When you do have access to a GS911, another item that would help a lot is to create a "real-time values" log to a file. GS911 software will allow this - see attached screen from their software.

I have done a lot of test with various Motronic version and TPS settings and logged the data to compare what is normal (and what is not). Best way to do diagnostic at a distance for me is that you do this:
(1) Install K1200 on center stand (do not start yet)

(2) Plug GS911 into bike diagnostic plug, then into PC (with their software installed)

(3) Start software and go into menu "realtime values" + "Log to CSV" button. Use defaults for all items. Choose a filename or use the default fileman offered.

(4) Start your K1200 (engine cold) and let it warm up. After about 2 minute of warm-up do occasional throttle twist to raise RPM to 2000 (5 seconds) and 4000 RPM (2-3 seconds). After these short RPM changes let it go back to idle for at least 30 secs in between.

(5) Stop engine (and log-to file) when you reach just above half-way point on the temp gauge on dash. The radiator fans should only start if you let it run until it is quite above the half-way mark (not required for this test).

Sent me a PM here and I will give you my personal email so that you can sent me the file for analysis. Not as good a being on-site and riding the bike, BUT MUCH BETTER than being blind and guessing what else should I change / adjust to fix my problem ;-)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	GS911_realtimeinfo.jpg
Views:	194
Size:	79.6 KB
ID:	70329  

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #27 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 10:53 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Little soon to be sure, but I think I have a bum battery. I charged threw the charger on the battery yesterday when I was doing the TPS reset. I went to start it to put it on the center stand today and it would only crank for a fraction of a second. I pulled the battery from my 2003 and dropped it in there. Hit the starter button and it fired up just like my '03.

I have the panels off and I am testing the temperature probe. Initial test showed the engine at about 100 degrees but I had run the engine for a minute or two getting it up on the center stand so that may be right. I am letting the engine cool and see what it reads.

Separate question - what are the lights for under the black tip over bar covers? I can't seem to make them come on. Sure looks like factory lights.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #28 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 11:16 pm
cws
Senior Member
 
cws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,183
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

one note on getting it up on the stand, the engine doesn't have to be running.... just turn key on and press the EHCS button... as usual though, not in gear, no brakes activated.. blah, blah.
Courtesy lights under the tipover bars.. someone with a fob-lock thing might be able to tell you how they work.. don't have it on mine.

Chris
Sydney, NSW
2005 Dark Graphite Metallic K1200LT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2005 Orient Blue Metallic K1200GT SE
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(sold 2019)
2000 Red Honda CB250 (the toy)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ulysses #45310
GS911


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

cws is offline  
post #29 of 369 Old Dec 11th, 2014, 11:32 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Definitely leaning towards a junk battery. I threw it on my Battery Tender and it is already reading fully charged. Typically a battery that won't turn over the bike takes multiple hours to fully charge in my experience.

I just checked my temperature probe and it is showing the engine at 80 degrees. The garage is probably in the mid-50's so it isn't going to drop too fast. I'll check it again in the morning though and then button things up after work if it looks good.

I found this link about the courtesy lights

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #30 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 7:01 am
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Definitely leaning towards a junk battery. I threw it on my Battery Tender and it is already reading fully charged. Typically a battery that won't turn over the bike takes multiple hours to fully charge in my experience.

I just checked my temperature probe and it is showing the engine at 80 degrees. The garage is probably in the mid-50's so it isn't going to drop too fast. I'll check it again in the morning though and then button things up after work if it looks good.

I found this link about the courtesy lights
Richard,
My concerns for a defective sensor (or another EFI related component) was based on this sentence from your initial post:
"I typically keep the RPMs about 1500 for 10 - 15 seconds before letting it go to normal idle but notice that until the engine gets warm, it is a little doggy. Never had that issue on the '03."

Based on this, I had assumed your problem was more than just slow cranking at start time. When everything is normal, the K1200 should automatically fast-idle by itself when cold (between 1200 and 1500 depending on how cold it is). Within 10 seconds to 1 minute, it should progressively go down to its normal idle RPM (950-1050).

You should NEVER have to hold the throttle manually opened during start or after start. In fact, if you do this you are confusing the BOSCH-Motronic EFI system as it does not know correct base TP setting (throttle idle stop). This also applies to almost all modern fuel-injected car engines - do NOT touch the gaz pedal on start.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #31 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 7:10 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Thanks for the added info. I am still checking the temp probe but was seeing the resistance increasing as the engine cooled. That is what the values stated should do so I am assuming that is working fine.

I didn't really notice an especially slow crank. It has been my experience with the 2003 that it will either turn over or it won't. I was told there is some protection circuit that keeps the starter from engaging when the voltage drops below a certain level so I never experienced the slow crank like in a car as the battery dies.

That said - I am not ruling out other possibilities but with the tests on the temp probe looking like that is good and the fact of changing the battery allowed it to fire right up. I will run it like this and see if there are any cold start issues...and I will make sure not to touch the throttle on start up.

EDIT: When I ran it with the 2003 battery in it last evening, the idle was about 1050 - 1100 RPM for the minute or two I ran it to get it on the center stand. The previous owner said I should always have it running to put it on the center stand so that is what I was doing. Sounds like it should be OK to put it on the EHCS without starting the bike though.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #32 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 7:52 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

the resistance could be changing but still not reaching the full range of resistance it is supposed to.

the idle should be up a bit on cold start, once the bike is running the alternator should be putting out enough volts/current that a marginal should not have any effect on how it runs.

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #33 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 8:08 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
the resistance could be changing but still not reaching the full range of resistance it is supposed to.

the idle should be up a bit on cold start, once the bike is running the alternator should be putting out enough volts/current that a marginal should not have any effect on how it runs.
Understood. That is why I haven't buttoned it up yet. I want to let the engine get cold (should be mid-40's F this evening). I'll take a reading there and then connect it up and run it till the fans kick in and then take another reading. I think that is about the best test I can do for range.

I am hoping the battery being weak was just causing low voltage in the system for the first few minutes of start up. Once the battery would get some charge back in it and the voltage was up, then things would run right. I may be off base on this so I will continue testing. I've had two battery failures over the years and they both presented in very different ways. First one was evident. If it sat for more than a day or two, it wouldn't start. Second one would crank great and if it fired over on first attempt I was golden. If not, it was like there was no reserve left for a second attempt. I will admit I run AGM batteries from China and have read they can fail really weird. The battery in the 2005 I just bought is also from China but not a Scorpion like I have been using. If it is the battery, I am seriously looking at the Odyssey PC680 for my next one. It's a few bucks more but made in the US. Sounds like they work well in the LTs.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #34 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 10:02 am
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Understood. That is why I haven't buttoned it up yet. I want to let the engine get cold (should be mid-40's F this evening). I'll take a reading there and then connect it up and run it till the fans kick in and then take another reading. I think that is about the best test I can do for range.

I am hoping the battery being weak was just causing low voltage in the system for the first few minutes of start up. Once the battery would get some charge back in it and the voltage was up, then things would run right. I may be off base on this so I will continue testing. I've had two battery failures over the years and they both presented in very different ways. First one was evident. If it sat for more than a day or two, it wouldn't start. Second one would crank great and if it fired over on first attempt I was golden. If not, it was like there was no reserve left for a second attempt. I will admit I run AGM batteries from China and have read they can fail really weird. The battery in the 2005 I just bought is also from China but not a Scorpion like I have been using. If it is the battery, I am seriously looking at the Odyssey PC680 for my next one. It's a few bucks more but made in the US. Sounds like they work well in the LTs.
When doing your next Start and warm-up test leave the seat off so that you can check alternator voltage output at battery poles.
(1) With ignition ON, but engine OFF, you should have at least 12 volts (remember that lights and many accesories take up current in that config)

(2) Once engine is started, wait approx 1 minute and check voltage again at battery: if alternator / regulator are all working well you should have 13.5 to 14 volts at idle. Increasing throttle a bit (above 1500 rpm) might give you 14.1 volts.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #35 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 10:11 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
When doing your next Start and warm-up test leave the seat off so that you can check alternator voltage output at battery poles.
(1) With ignition ON, but engine OFF, you should have at least 12 volts (remember that lights and many accesories take up current in that config)

(2) Once engine is started, wait approx 1 minute and check voltage again at battery: if alternator / regulator are all working well you should have 13.5 to 14 volts at idle. Increasing throttle a bit (above 1500 rpm) might give you 14.1 volts.
Will do. Right now I have the battery from my 2003 in there so I expect it will start right up. I can run the tests with that one in and then again with putting the original battery that was in it back and try it again and see if there are any differences. I've had the original battery on the battery tender all night so it should be 100% charged. (at least it is showing me it is 100% charged)

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #36 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 10:19 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Guess another test I could do is drop the battery from the 2005 in the 2003 and see if that one develops the same cold blooded attitude...

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #37 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 10:27 am
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Guess another test I could do is drop the battery from the 2005 in the 2003 and see if that one develops the same cold blooded attitude...
Indeed... this is always the best troubleshooting logic - double check all assumptions.

In my opinion, it would be exceptional if a battery that can start a K1200 would be low enough to cause havoc with EFI system behavior. I would assume there are other variables between these two K1200 causing this (Tuning, bad-fuel, fuel-pressure, sensors...)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #38 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 11:23 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
I would assume there are other variables between these two K1200 causing this (Tuning, bad-fuel, fuel-pressure, sensors...)
Optimist in me is hoping it is just a battery. I was hoping to wait till spring and closer to 24K miles before removing the tank and digging in. Guess if the battery swap is inconclusive, I can always tear in now. 24K is just a number...

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #39 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 8:46 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
In my opinion, it would be exceptional if a battery that can start a K1200 would be low enough to cause havoc with EFI system behavior. I would assume there are other variables between these two K1200 causing this (Tuning, bad-fuel, fuel-pressure, sensors...)
Did a resistance measurement on the temp probe at 51 degrees F and it was correct. Then ran the engine till the fans kicked in, pulled the the plug and took another reading. within 5 ohms of the chart. I think the temp probe is good.

Although the bike is starting better with the battery from the 2003 in it, I agree with you that it is not the root cause.

I put the battery from the 2005 into the 2003 and it started. I paid more attention. The 2003 went immediately up to 2000 RPM and then came back down to 1500. Only ran it for a couple minutes but it dropped down to about 1200 RPM.

In contrast, the 2005 immediately went to 1200 RPM and then came back down almost immediately to 950 - 1000 RPM and the idle is not as smooth. If I try to give it a quick throttle twist, it will basically dog out. I could get the RPMs up with a little slower throttle twist.

Suggestions for next thing to test??? Should I get my hands on the GS911 and pull a log next? Pull the tank and change out the filter? Not sure how to check fuel pressure...

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #40 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 9:37 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Pull the plugs and see what color they are, post pic if you can

Ohm the plug wires

Spark plugs last for a long time in modern motors but can cause your symptoms also as has been mentioned check rubber parts throttle bodies, strong flashlight inspection

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #41 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 9:42 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
Pull the plugs and see what color they are, post pic if you can

Ohm the plug wires
I'll pull them tomorrow and see what they look like. Think I can get a picture posted.

Can I see the throttle body without pulling the tank?

One more observation since I was running it in the garage. The 2005 seemed to smoke more than the 2003. Actually had to turn a fan on to blow the smoke out of the garage. It got a little better as it warmed up but didn't go away like it does with the 2003.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by rdepas; Dec 12th, 2014 at 10:29 pm.
rdepas is offline  
post #42 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 10:34 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

If it is blackish smoke, smells more like gas could be O2 sensor, see what plugs look like should be extremely light tan

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #43 of 369 Old Dec 12th, 2014, 11:01 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
If it is blackish smoke, smells more like gas could be O2 sensor, see what plugs look like should be extremely light tan
Thanks for the info. I would say that it does smell like gas. Will post a picture of the plugs tomorrow.

1973 Yamaha 250 Enduro (crash and burn)
1982 Yamaha Virago 920 (sold)
Honda CB750 Custom (sold...good riddins!)
2003 K1200LT - Black (for sale)
2005 K1200LT - Ocean Blue Metallic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
rdepas is offline  
post #44 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 9:57 am
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
Did a resistance measurement on the temp probe at 51 degrees F and it was correct. Then ran the engine till the fans kicked in, pulled the plug and took another reading. within 5 ohms of the chart. I think the temp probe is good.

Although the bike is starting better with the battery from the 2003 in it, I agree with you that it is not the root cause.

I put the battery from the 2005 into the 2003 and it started. I paid more attention. The 2003 went immediately up to 2000 RPM and then came back down to 1500. Only ran it for a couple minutes but it dropped down to about 1200 RPM.

In contrast, the 2005 immediately went to 1200 RPM and then came back down almost immediately to 950 - 1000 RPM and the idle is not as smooth. If I try to give it a quick throttle twist, it will basically dog out. I could get the RPMs up with a little slower throttle twist.

Suggestions for next thing to test??? Should I get my hands on the GS911 and pull a log next? Pull the tank and change out the filter? Not sure how to check fuel pressure...
Troubleshooting Electronic-Fuel-Injected (EFI) engines is not always easy, especially at a distance. Still better and more reliable than 4 aging carburetors from 1970-1980 era ;-)

There are many interrelated components / sensors and to avoid too many trial-errors you have to take a logical system approach – there are many search paths that leads nowhere and it can easy or long to find root cause(s).

Always start from most simple (in time or $$$) and most probable:
(1) Since how long has it been acting like this – How long have you own the bike (time and mileage) to have a base reference?
(2) Can you remember recent work/maintenance that was done on bike that would coincide with this problem? Even something simple like removing all fairings might have disrupted a wire connected to a sensor or component.
(3) Has the bike been sitting for long with old gas in tank?

(4) As mentioned in earlier post, simple basic checks that can be done with Multi-meter are a good start. This is why I insisted on checking variation of engine-temp sensor (resistance) and also charging-voltage of alternator while engine is running.

(5) Another fault on K1200LT that have been seen on forums is: low fuel pressure caused by crack in fuel hose inside tank. In some cases the bike will still run (crack is small) but will run like shit because fuel pressure is being lowered from min acceptable. This has been more common since usage of Ethanol in fuel (damage to rubber / plastic). Need to open tank from below (like a fuel-filter change) and inspect both hoses (before and after filter). A fuel pressure check would also confirm this without opening anything (see Clymer near/at page 247).

(6) Another fault on K1200LT that have been seen on forums is: cracked or damaged HT wire leading to spark-plugs. On a K1200, these wires tend to create chaffing on cylinder block and can cause arcing with metal. A simple trick is to run bike in dark area (at night outside) and spray a small amount of fine droplets onto wires and spark plug area while engine is idling. A leak will show as sparks jumping out of wires.

(7) A defective or lazy Oxygen sensor could cause certain issues HOWEVER the system does NOT care much about its signal until engine is warmed up a bit (when started from cold). A much better/reliable symptom is much lower fuel mileage (approx -15%). A GS911 "real-time" report will give us some clue on Oxygen sensor signal.

(8) Many other items that I could list but would be easier to eliminate with a GS911 report (read fault-codes AND a log of real-time values). I believe I have already posted in a private email the method to achieve a fairly complete data log from GS911.

Let us know what you find...

P.S.: very good point in earlier posts about color of spark-plugs. Basic combustion engine checks are still applicable to EFI system.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."

Last edited by sailor; Dec 13th, 2014 at 10:07 am.
sailor is offline  
post #45 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 11:57 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
I just bought it a couple weeks ago so I can only relay what the previous owner stated. He owned it for 3 years and put on 5k miles. Saps it already had the 12 k maintenance on it when he bought it. He had a fluid change at 16k. Has just under 20k on it now. He said it was always cold blooded and assumed that was normal.

I pulled the plugs. They were a little wet darker than the one I replaced in the 2003. I will attach the pictures below.

Did a voltage check on the battery. Here are my readings.

Off......12.7v
On......12.04v
Start
15 sec....13.8v
30 sec....13.9v
45 sec....14.0v
1 min....14.1v
2min....14.1v
3 min....14.0v
Ignition off
1 min....13.1v
2 min....13.05v
5 min....12.93v

While running I checked for arcing on the plug wires. None found.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20141213_080115_1418489694432.jpg
Views:	242
Size:	150.9 KB
ID:	70361   Click image for larger version

Name:	20141213_080129_1418489728027.jpg
Views:	292
Size:	156.8 KB
ID:	70369   Click image for larger version

Name:	20141213_080138_1418489766563.jpg
Views:	215
Size:	157.2 KB
ID:	70377   Click image for larger version

Name:	20141213_080147_1418489815024.jpg
Views:	162
Size:	173.9 KB
ID:	70385  
rdepas is offline  
post #46 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 1:06 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 978
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Your plugs show richness at idle or low rpms. There should really be no color on the metal at the base of the ground electrode and very light tan at tip. The bike has low mileage and driven infrequently from sound of it. Personally I would put new plugs in it. Sitting and short trips are hard on some things.

I would ohm plug wires they should be between 5 - 6 ohms, I had a low rpm miss on my K100 from bad resistance with 2 wires.

The O2 sensor runs open loop until motor warms up a bit but at 32 degrees F my cylinder head is warm in 30 seconds - rocker cover takes awhile to warm up if judging temp from that. K12 warms up very fast compared to K100 or K1100.

Have you tried looking in tank while bike running to see fuel agitated from split hose

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
2012 K1600GTL
2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
gary45 is offline  
post #47 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 1:30 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdepas View Post
I just bought it a couple weeks ago so I can only relay what the previous owner stated. He owned it for 3 years and put on 5k miles. Saps it already had the 12 k maintenance on it when he bought it. He had a fluid change at 16k. Has just under 20k on it now. He said it was always cold blooded and assumed that was normal.

I pulled the plugs. They were a little wet darker than the one I replaced in the 2003. I will attach the pictures below.

Did a voltage check on the battery. Here are my readings.

Off......12.7v
On......12.04v
Start
15 sec....13.8v
30 sec....13.9v
45 sec....14.0v
1 min....14.1v
2min....14.1v
3 min....14.0v
Ignition off
1 min....13.1v
2 min....13.05v
5 min....12.93v

While running I checked for arcing on the plug wires. None found.

(1) battery voltage checks before start - AND- while running are good and also show good alternator charging. So we can eliminate this as related cause.
(2) wet plug wires test appear to be good so we can also eliminate this from cause.
(3) we also know from previous post that engine-temp-sensor resistance values appear normal.

The fact that previous owner did very little mileage in 3 years is a RED negative flag. From bad old gaz causing deposit (injectors, tank, fuel-pump) to other potential issues. Running it in garage for 5 minutes every month is NOT a solution to not riding it - cause more problems/condensation into engine. From your post above, when I hear a seller tell me this: "He said it was always cold blooded and assumed that was normal." ... I do not know if I should laugh or cry - no it is NOT normal.

About the spark-plug color:
-----------------------------
For many years on caburator engines, it was almost a science to read plug colors for troubleshooting. HOWEVER one must be careful not to push too far into a given isolated test case. If/When a spark-plugs has mainly done cold start or warm-up on idling RPM during last 10 minutes, the reading is not as valid as a highway ride. In real-life analysis the tuner would ask riders (racers) to make a certain RPM run and stop/kill engine before it had time to idle too long. The goal was to check fueling mixture at normal RPM obviously.

Still, even with above warnings, given these pictures, I would say tip/electrode is a bit too white/gray and the inside oily/carbon deposit is not good either. Are these BOSCH XR7LDC ? Ideally you would try new spark-plugs and do a longer ride (with new fuel in tank) to check again.

Further tests / research:
--------------------------
As mentioned earlier, a reading of engine fault codes with GS911 and doing a full log of "realtime values" on center-stand as described earlier.

Getting a hold of a fuel-pressure gauge to check that fuel-pressure is not too low. This would give us a health check into:
(1) fuel-pump and internal hoses in fuel-tank (into/out of filter)
(2) fuel-filter being blocked
(3) Fuel-pressure regulator (not common cause of problem)
These BOSCH Motronic EFI system will run like shit when fuel pressure is too low (51 PSI is normal, a bit more is not a problem +10%). A bike that sat for a long time is more at risk of problem in this area.

See attached pictures: these Fuel-pressure gauge kit are not expensive and will be cheaper than a single visit to dealer to make same check for you. In addition, you can either re-use on other EFI engines (car, bike). On a K1200 you need to find another set a fuel hose quick-connectors to hook into existing fuel pressure side hose. OEM black plastic connector will fit into the metal type sold by BeemerBoneyard (made by same supplier).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	K1200RS_Fuel-pressure-gauge-JEAN (Setup_1).JPG
Views:	252
Size:	124.3 KB
ID:	70401   Click image for larger version

Name:	K1200RS_Fuel-pressure-gauge-JEAN (Setup_2).JPG
Views:	340
Size:	135.5 KB
ID:	70409   Click image for larger version

Name:	K1200RS_Fuel-pressure-gauge-JEAN (Engine running at 54 psi.JPG
Views:	241
Size:	103.2 KB
ID:	70417  

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #48 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 1:41 pm
Senior Member
 
sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal ,QC , Canada
Posts: 1,171
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

One more item that may help a lot:

There is a lot of knowledge here in these forums but we cannot be on site to see/hear it start and run. It would help a lot if you had video camera with good sound:
- let is cool for at least 8 hours (if 70 F outside or in garage, less hours if colder)
- run video cam with sound when you start and let it idle for 2 minutes (show a close-up of dash and tach before and during start)

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
sailor is offline  
post #49 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 2:10 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA - USA
Posts: 505
Garage
I have the tank of now. Vacuum lines look good. I am going to replace the fuel filter some I have it off. Air filter looked ok. Blew it out some I don't have a spare on the shelf.

I'll see if I can source a fuel pressure gauge but the quick connects will be impossible locally. It appears this bike still has the plastic ones on so I should swap them for metal ones anyway. Is Beemer boneyard the best place or van those be sourced from McMaster Carr? Know the carry a lot like that at a fraction of the price.
rdepas is offline  
post #50 of 369 Old Dec 13th, 2014, 2:34 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,271
Re: 2005 Cold blooded - is there a fix?

The plastic females are OK but get the metal males. They are available at most major supply houses and are quite common. I use them in white acetal for my disconnects on my hydration system.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who replaced a O2 sensor on a 2005 LT?? bowdon K1200LT 8 Apr 14th, 2010 9:36 am
how cold is too cold? MountianMama K1200LT 6 Mar 10th, 2010 12:24 am
Cold weather simoncharles Humor 0 Jan 23rd, 2010 3:03 am
It's Going to Be a Long and Cold Winter Dean_BMW Humor 0 Aug 14th, 2009 9:50 pm
2005 LT Cold Engine Issues... Mike_the_Rat K1200LT 28 Dec 18th, 2005 2:20 am

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome