2006 K1200LT,

When it's hot outside, 90F+, bike runs like crap, it's like the timing is retarded or something.
Will pulling the connector off of the IAT at the air cleaner help?
Or is the IAT bad?
Can it be resistance checked, and if so what is the resistance values?

Thanks in advance...Randy

If it was a 1985 K-bike in 1985, the problem would be vapor lock from the fuel being too heated by fuel rail.

Doesn't feel like a vapor-lock problem, thanks.

Try watching this video, it addresses the "brown wire mod" Air box temp switch stuff. This mod is done when the bike runs like crap over 80 degrees. Anyway, watch it and see if it helps you out, if not, let us know.
http://illinoisbmwriders.com/service...lt-performance

The brown mod is only available on the 2002 to 2004 years.

Thanks for the replys.... Do I need a GS911 to trouble shoot?

Do you hear a wooshing sound when you open the fuel tank?
Trying to rule out a clogged canister...

When did you last do a valve check? Could have a tight one or two when heated up you lose compression

Its got 15K on the bike, do I need a valve check?

If I recall correctly, valve clearance checks are done at 12,000 mile intervals.

I believe that the resistance in the air box temp sensor should go down as the temp increases.

Perhaps You should disconnect the air box temp sensor (simulating very high resistance) & see if that improves anything. You might need a new one.

Thanks, I'll try to reach my hand up in there to release the catch.(they say it can be done)

later..Randy

I don't think 100f ambient temp will cause a tight valve or two.

later..Randy

Just wondering about the easy stuff. Are you running premium gas? Over multiply tank loads? Trying to rule out bad gas. Also, at 90F+ regular gas doesn't run like crap, but more sluggish than premium.

HTH,
Jer

Thanks Jer,
Yes premium gas, can only get 91 in Utah, have ran many tanks of gas, used seafoam, techron, no joy.
Changed O2 sensor no change. No Joy.

Bike runs good when cool, kinda sounds like pinging but not really when hot. IDK.

I'm thinking about my cat, not plugged up but rattling.
Maybe I'll take it off and cut it out and de-cat it.

later..Randy

Just finished a service on my 07 with 19000 kms on it. Two intake valves were tight when cold. They had zero clearance between the bucket and the cam lobe. Changed the buckets out and can feel the difference for sure. Glad I checked could have cost me burnt valves. You mention the bike runs good cold but as it warms up you lose power. As everything expands with heat you could be losing compression through a tight valve or two as she comes to operating temp. Maybe try a throttle reset incase you are not getting enough power. I don't know enough of these bikes regarding the possibility timing could have slipped or moved one way or the other. As you know when ambient temperature goes up compression goes down. So you could be looking at a combination of problems. Maybe blocked injectors, plugged air filter, sucking air somewhere in the system, dodgy spark plugs, collapsed fuel filter, o-rings in QD blocking fuel, lean mixture etc. It's going to take a system of illimination. Not knowing if these symptons came on suddenly or creeped up on you till it became noticeable. I wish you good luck in trying to decipher the problem.

Thanks for the reply, Air filter, plugs, fuel filter all new.
I will check the valve lash, easy enough to do.

IDK maybe it's the nature of the beast, bought the bike in April with 12K miles on it.

My harleys would ping too under hard acceleration, never a problem with the goldwings.

later..Randy

You are using premium fuel???

An "06" with only 12K miles...That's like a brand new bike!

I've never heard my LT "ping". But I won't even try to accelerate hard under 4000rpm.

Do check your valve clearance (it's due), however.... I'm betting on the air temp sensor.

Let us know how it goes, after you unplug!

Yes..Read post #14.

Just a question for you to consider. You indicate the bike runs poorly when "hot". Does it run ok when the ambient temperature is lower, such as in the seventies? If so, this does indicate an issue with one of the engine management sensors. Also, the two basic modes of operation are open loop which is when the bike is first started and closed loop which is after the motor warms up and is taking the input from all the engine sensors and O2 sensor to determine such things as timing and fuel mix. So if it always starts and runs good until it goes into the closed loop mode, you are likely looking at one of the solid state engine sensors. Most likely culprits would be engine temperature sensor or intake air temp sensor. However, since the engine uses input from some of the sensors even in open loop mode, your O2 sensor may be bad. If it were mine, I would first check the fuel rail pressure, it should be around 51 PSI. Next two suspects would be IAT sensor and engine temp sensor.

Thanks Dean,
I replaced the O2 sensor a while back and seem to have cleaned up the tailpipe soot that collects there.

Does the LT have a check engine light on the panel or do you need a code reader to see if the sensors are bad?

Seem like if I had a bad sensor a check light would be displayed.(like a car)

At upper rpms the motor sounds just fine, but when hot, the motor really lugs such as pulling away from a traffic light, but when it's cool a mile or so from my house first thing in the morning, I have no problem at traffic lights.
That would tell me it is running on the open loop ECM settings when engine is cool, and later when it's hot, it is running on the closed loop which would be leaner.

I really think it's a combination between crappy gas and the ECM software running the engine too lean, just to satisfiy the EPA folks.

I am glad we have fuel injection these days, but at least with carburetor's we could adjust the fuel mixture.

later..Randy

Mine has this same problem. It started when I had to start using gas poisoned with 10% ethanol. I tried one of the devices that makes the computer think the air temp is colder than actual, but that didn't help noticeably. I have a GS-911 and it shows no faults and the oxygen sensor signal looks normal.

It is maddening to ride in hot weather in an urban area. I am fairly convinced it is the ethanol, but if you find something else do let us know!

Do you guys have Ethanol in 94 Octane gas? In Canada Ethanol is only in 87 89 and 91Octane , as 94 appears to be the highest we have. Not many pure gas stations around anymore so we use Shell V power 94 octane and bikes run fine. Have on one occasion used regular gas but ran that tank off in one trip and filled up with premium after but never noticed any difference in performance between the two numbers. Did same with my Triumph with no apparent change in performance rightly so as there should be no difference in performance between the two, the only difference should be the octane boosters to reduce pinking and pre ignition which follows on after shut down. The higher the octane is for high compression engines to allow the gas to withstand higher pressures and temperatures before ignition. Detergent additives for cleaning the system, antifreeze, sulphur mitigators, dyes, stabilizers, de-hazers plus much more are normal for all octanes. It could be as you mentioned some crappy gas you bought. I notice difference between suppliers here, sounds crazy but my Ford Explorer notices the mileage difference between the likes of El cheepo FasGas and Domo compared to Shell, Esso, PetroCan and Costco. Just make sure there is no moisture in you fuel, difficult as Ethanol attracts the stuff. Another thought is, what is your part of the country's elevation from sea level. If the bike was ever tuned at sea level moving to higher ground will make mixture change necessary. Just a thought

Thats what the O2 sensor is for.

later..Randy

We have ethanol across the board where I live. There is one station with ethanol free 92 octane, but it is 20 miles away and not convenient to get to most of the time. I use the Pure Gas app, but few choices in my area.

Most all of the pure gas around here(UT) is only 88 octane.

later..Randy

Randy the only thing I can think of if you have tried most everything else is have an exhaust sniffer on the bike to determine the mixture. Hopefully you have tested fuel rail pressure, looked for kinks or blockages in fuel lines. No restrictions in air flow, not sucking air at intake manifold. You could do a blow down test on the cylinders to determine no blow by on rings or open valves. Or similarly do a compression test, check for timing advancement on acceleration. Check brakes are not hanging on (has happened before) on cars. Think that about covers it mate.

Thanks for the replys,

My previous Harley had a unique system for trouble shooting problems with the sensors and such.
It had a system that used the odometer to spell out fault codes, there were
5 areas of the electronics it could pin-point the failure and record it.

Too bad The Germans didn't feel the same way about it's do it yourselfers.

my venting is over with..

Thanks..Randy

Maybe it is time to hook it to a GS-911?

Your present BMW offers also possibility to read all fault codes stored in the ECU using simple analog multimeter or led. And all this with the little help from Mr. Google.

If you want to make sure its not fuel go out to your local airport and buy a few gallons of av gas. When your tank is almost empty pour it in and ride.

After riding my bike around and getting more familiar with it, I believe it is the ECM and the programming causing the problems.

This is my first BMW and I can see this bike is not like the other bikes out there.

I am sure the BMW engineers didn't test ride their bikes in the desert and on the american super freeways etc.

When the 2001 goldwing was redesigned, the honda engineer spent several months riding in the USA to get a feel for what it was like on american roads, distance between gas stations, hot dry conditions etc.


They also have better quality gasoline over there too.

I don't thing there is anything mechanically wrong with the bike, it's just a poor design as far as the fuel mapping and such.

The main issue is leaving the traffic lights.
When the engine is cool the bike responds well to the throttle with no lugging or revving the engine higher to get off the line, when hot the engine timing is severely retarded and you really have to work at it to get going from the stop light. It's like the factory put in too high of a first gear or something.
Maybe I will try another ECM and see if that helps.

later..Randy

How about a link.

Hey Randy,
I'm curious... Have You disconnected the air temp sensor (I'm reading through the thread & I don't see it). Today is a good day to try it.
It's supposed to be 90F in Bountiful today.
Let us know how it works.

And Please please Please don't put AV GAS in your Bike!
Anyone who's seen the crud that gets deposited on the spark plugs & exhaust of airplanes that use the stuff knows what I mean.

When the Engine is cool?
Or when the Outside air temperature is cool?
??

I doubt it is the ecm or any factory programing,could be a sensor issue maybe.
My 2000 does not care if it's 50 or 100 out...runs the same.

After 10 seconds Googling the following (Dutch one) but lots of also US/UK-stories in the Interweb.

http://www.bmwgsclub.nl/motronic-reset.html

(You do have Motronic MA 2.4 in LT)

Also after 20 seconds in the google following info how to read fault codes:

"Firstly you can do some investigation of your own fault codes. Under the front seat and clipped to the frame there is a diagnostic connector. It is cylindrical in shape and has a removable push-and-turn gray cap.

Remove the cap and locate the pin 2, connected to a brown/blue wire. Connect an analogue meter between pin 2 and earth. Turn on the ignition. The meter will initially settle at around 10V. It's what happens next that is of interest. The needle will fall to a number of lower voltages in a series of pulses. Count the number of needle drops. This number is your fault code.

I do have gs911 so haven't needed to do it manual way. I have bumped numerous times in the net for the ECU-fault codes, so spend some time searching and you will be rewarded...

I would start solving the problem by disconnecting the intake air sensor and seeing if that makes any difference. In early models (99 - 2002 or something?) that caused just those symptoms you described. I have disconnected mine (99-LT) just for the same reason... Depending on the model/year there are different ways to approach this problem. Look for the "brown wire" and read few threads....

Ok.... Some more story copied with proud from ADVRIDER Forum

"....
Reading the Fault Codes on the R1150
First of all credit where credit is due…..http://www.bmwgsclub.nl/motronic-reset.html which I got google to translate to English – not perfect but enough to get the jist that the 1150 MA 2.4 can be read in a similar way to the 1100 MA 2.2.
I tried the LED method and it did not work, the impedance was too low.
Next I tried my DVM and lo and behold I got the first hall sensor code 1133, I then prompted the next code and got 1122 (both these codes come up if the engine is not turned over or running) The next prompt was 1111 which I expected as there is no cat code plug on my bike followed by 0000 – no further faults.
I then disconnected the temp sensor on the air cleaner and got 1223 Engine temp sensor fault. Pulling Fuse #5 for at least 1 min reset that fault.

So in a nutshell, reading the MA2.4 is similar to the 2.2 if you use a high impedance 200k or better Analog meter or DVM with a bar graph if you bring out pin #18 from the Motronic. Note: too low impedance a meter will cause the Motronic to try to prompt the next fault code and not report.

NOTE: IF YOU ARE NOT TOTALLY COMFORTABLE WITH ELECTRICAL MODIFICATIONS READ NO FURTHER. ALL MODIFICATIONS ARE AT YOUR OWN RISK. CONSULT AN EXPERT IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS IN YOUR ABILITIES.

Follow the procedure on page 71 of Carl Kulow & co IBMWR http://www.ibmwr.org/r-tech/oilheads/index.shtml to extract the codes just as you would on the R1100 the only difference being instead of referencing Pin 1 of the diagnostic connector you will use the wire brought out from pin #18 of the Moditec as below

The mod to the machine is as follows:
Remove the tank and disconnect the battery
Unscrew the 4 bolts holding the Motronic and undo the connector
Carefully peel back the boot and disassemble the connector exposing the wires on the inside.
Locate Position #18 at the end (no wire exists) – that’s where you will be adding a new wire and crimp. (I went to my local auto wrecker and got a compete connector to rob crimps from off a mid ‘90s BMW 320 to match the ones on my GS)
Cut a suitable length of wire, solder a salvaged crimp and insert into position #18 (purple plastic lock strip must be removed to do this, be sure to replace)
Reassemble the connector assembly routing the new wire out through a pierced hole in the rubber boot.
Continue to route the wire to an conveniently accessible location ( I brought it alongside the existing diagnostic plug) and attach an insulated connector of your choice that will accept a meter probe. Be sure to avoid any sharp edges.
Snap connector back on the Motronic and replace 4 screws not forgetting the ground wire on the left bottom side.
Reconnect the battery and replace the fuel tank.
Turn ignition switch on and open throttle wide open twice. (to reset TPS signal to Motronic)

Some pictures below to clarify the procedure.

BTW: Given the choice I prefer my analog meter - it is easier to read the 'dips'
....."

Aaaaand some fault codes:

1111 CO potentiometer not detected with Oxygen sensor disconnected
1122 No signal from Hall Sensor #1 (Upper or TDC Sensor, Coil 1/4)
1133 No signal from Hall Sensor #2 (Lower or 180° Sensor, Coil 2/3)
1215 Throttle Position Sensor out of range
1223 Water Temperature Sensor out of range
1224 Air temperature Sensor out of range
2341 Oxygen sensor at limit
2342 Oxygen sensor signal invalid
2343 Mixture setting at limit
2344 Oxygen sensor shorted to ground
2345 Oxygen sensor shorted to 12V
3333 Fan Test in Progress (the fan motor will run intermittently and
the 3333 code will flash)
4444 No fault stored

Yep, that will poison your catcon but good...

Engine cool.

I knew that!!

No,
Too many honey doos.

Thanks C-A-D.

Do you run ethanol containing gas?

I agree that the LT is mapped to the lean side and I am sure that is to meet emissions regulations. This affects many modern bikes.

I didn't notice the problem until I was no longer able to get pure gasoline in my area. I think the LT just isn't able to accommodate ethanol poisoned gas, particularly at higher ambient temps.

I bought an Accelerator module from Solid Solutions, but that didn't make a detectable improvement. I think finding real gas or finding a way to develop and load a new fuel map is the only permanent solution. http://sol2.be

I would love to be able to run avgas, but that would kill the cat in short order and probably full the plugs also.

Thanks Voyager,
I agree with you the gas is terrible, but thanks to the goverment pinheads in washington and the powerful corn lobbists from the midwest, we are stuck with ethanol in the gas. Congress bought off on it a few years ago and signed it into law.
I am looking into X-IED products, they have done good things with harleys and their lean running condition like the BMW. I think they recently engineered a system for BMW. I will give them a call and ask a few questions about their product.

later..Randy

Update...Beemerboneyard sells them.

Beemerboneyard..
$220 might be worth trying, I've read some good reports on the K1200RS applications.
I have a birthday comming up, wifey (hint)(hint).

later..Randy

http://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafxied1150.html

If you decide to try it, please let us know if it works.

If you tell everyone your wife got you a temperature probe for your birthday I can already hear the jokes...

A short video explaining Octane.

http://motoringtv.com/video/motoring...f-your-engine/

I just ordered a AF-XIED from the boneyard.

I will post a report when it's installed and I've had a chance to test it.

later..Randy