Swirly gas syndrome - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 1:26 pm Thread Starter
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Swirly gas syndrome

Well, I was riding down my driveway a short time ago and the LT started to lose power. It would restart and then slowly die. After a couple of starts, it wouldn't even fire.

Based on all of shared experience here, I suspected the fuel lines. Removed the cap (tank was just filled) and turned on the key and the gas nearly swirled out of the tank. I guess 7 years is all these hoses can take with our 10% ethanol poisoned fuel.

The interesting part is that I had just returned from a 4,730 mile trip to Newfoundland. This was the first ride after returning and I got less than 1/4 mile. It is good to have God watching out for you!

I am curious to see if the problem is a hose or the Beemer Boneyard clamps I used when I replaced the fuel filter 3 years and 19,000 miles ago. I almost bought the Oetikers and installation tool, but decided to give the BBY clamps a try since they came with the maintenance kit.

Now to drain out 6 gallons of fuel. Not sure I have an empty can that size...

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post #2 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 2:20 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Wow you are lucky.....
Keep us informed.

later..Randy
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post #3 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 5:39 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Very lucky indeed! Mine is 10 years old but I am carrying a spare "U" hose just incase. Last time I had the filter out the hose looked fine. Just never know. I have used fuel almost exclusively from Shell when I could and most pumps said may contain 10% crap. Maybe the Shell crap is better!?!

John
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post #4 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 6:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Very lucky indeed! Mine is 10 years old but I am carrying a spare "U" hose just incase. Last time I had the filter out the hose looked fine. Just never know. I have used fuel almost exclusively from Shell when I could and most pumps said may contain 10% crap. Maybe the Shell crap is better!?!
Could be! I have only one station in my area that carries real gas and it is 20+ miles away. I fill up there when it is convenient. I was happy that most parts of Canada appeared to have real gas ... or maybe they just aren't required to label their pumps.

I won't blame the hoses just yet as it could also be a clamp. Won't know until I go buy a hose to use to siphon out the full tank of gas that I had bought the night I returned from my trip.

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post #5 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 6:35 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

All gas in Canada is now 10 percent alcohol, my understanding is all fuel hose on German cars has been OK with alcohol since the 80s. I would think that if the curved hose is the one that normally fails it has more to do with the stress from forming the curve. The hoses in my 2K are original, should probably pick up a spare from the dealer.

Gary
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post #6 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 9:03 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
All gas in Canada is now 10 percent alcohol, my understanding is all fuel hose on German cars has been OK with alcohol since the 80s. I would think that if the curved hose is the one that normally fails it has more to do with the stress from forming the curve. The hoses in my 2K are original, should probably pick up a spare from the dealer.
That is unfortunate. I was hoping Canada might be smarter than the US in this regard.

Maybe the fuel line is ethanol tolerant, but it seems that the LT has a pretty high failure rate of fuel lines. In contrast, I just sold a 20 year old Chevy truck that still had its original fuel lines! And I replaced the front brake hoses when they were 15 years old just because I thought I should. They were still in good shape. And I have other vehicles that are 10 years old with all original rubber hoses. So why do LT fuel and brake hoses last only 7-10 years? Inquiring minds want to know.

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post #7 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 9:34 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
So why do LT fuel and brake hoses last only 7-10 years? Inquiring minds want to know.

For the fuel lines it could be because they're immersed in fuel instead of just having fuel flowing through them. Fuel's working on them from both sides.
Don't have a good guess on the brake lines.

I replaced my brake lines abt 2 yrs ago on my 2002 but my fuel lines are original. They looked & felt good when I changed the last filter abt 2 yrs ago.
(brake lines seemed fine when replaced too)

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post #8 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 10:52 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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For the fuel lines it could be because they're immersed in fuel instead of just having fuel flowing through them. Fuel's working on them from both sides.
Don't have a good guess on the brake lines.

I replaced my brake lines abt 2 yrs ago on my 2002 but my fuel lines are original. They looked & felt good when I changed the last filter abt 2 yrs ago.
(brake lines seemed fine when replaced too)
My Chevy truck also had its fuel pump immersed in the tank and it had one piece of rubber hose, but I believe it was a straight section. It lasted 20 years so I suspect something else is a factor with the LT system. Maybe the hose bending process as someone mentioned previously.

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post #9 of 44 Old Jul 24th, 2014, 11:48 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
My Chevy truck also had its fuel pump immersed in the tank and it had one piece of rubber hose, but I believe it was a straight section. It lasted 20 years so I suspect something else is a factor with the LT system. Maybe the hose bending process as someone mentioned previously.
Yeah, I guess most (if not all) cars & trucks have the pump in the tank since fuel injection became the norm. I've only replaced one inside the tank pump on a car many years back, but I don't think it had any rubber hoses inside the tank. On a somewhat related note. I never replaced the brake fluid on any of my trucks or cars & never had any hydraulic problems with any of them until more like 20yrs. Yeah, I got no clue? You can bet I replace my bikes brake fluid at least every other year though.

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post #10 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 7:47 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I didn't check the hose in the tank.But one of my gas lines outside was gummy so I replaced it with gates barricade FI line which is formulated to stand up to the different additives in gas these days... (not submersible)

2009 BMW K1200LT "Shelly"
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post #11 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 8:15 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Originally Posted by Rob't View Post
Yeah, I guess most (if not all) cars & trucks have the pump in the tank since fuel injection became the norm. I've only replaced one inside the tank pump on a car many years back, but I don't think it had any rubber hoses inside the tank. On a somewhat related note. I never replaced the brake fluid on any of my trucks or cars & never had any hydraulic problems with any of them until more like 20yrs. Yeah, I got no clue? You can bet I replace my bikes brake fluid at least every other year though.
the power brake pump motors inside the module probably use the brake fluid for lubrication same as the fuel pump in the gas tank uses the gas for lubrication, surprised me a bit first pump I removed from one of my VW's with fuel injection, pump in tank. Probably wise to change the brake fluid every year

the early fuel injected VW's (1970's) had a lift pump on floating pick-up in tank and a high pressure pump outside the tank.

Gary
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post #12 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 10:45 am Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Hypothesis confirmed. I removed the fuel pump and filter assembly and there is a hole in the U-hose at the top of the assembly. I will replace both hoses though as if one went the other may not be far behind. Since this failed on the outside of the bend just past the fitting, at what is probably the point of highest tensile stress, I suspect this is another design defect from BMW. It is just not smart to have a hose that is under fairly high pressure have such a tight radius and be submerged in gasoline. They should have made a bent metal tube for this location and just had a short straight hose section to connect it to the filter more like the slightly bent hose at the other end of the filter.

I am curious to know from others who have had these hoses fail, was your failure always the U-shaped hose or has the shorter and straighter hose failed also? Was your failure on the outside of the bend? Or have failures occurred on the inside as well?

I will attempt to attach two pictures:
1. A picture that confirms you can remove the fuel pump assembly with the tank on the bike. I know there was a raucous discussion about this some time ago so I decided to try that route first. Worked great. Removed the right side panel and the lower fairing and the crash bar. The hardest part was getting all of the tie wraps cut for the wiring and hoses so I could swing the crash bar out of the way without having to remove the one connecter that is attached to the bar.
2. A picture showing the location of the breech in the hose.

It took me less than an hour and that including siphoning out a full tank of gas. The siphon was pretty effective as I lost only a small amount of gas when I unscrewed the pump.

I will also note that the screw type hose clamps provided by Beemer Boneyard worked well. They have been on the bike for 3 years and about 19,000 miles and are still well in place as you may be able to see in the pictures. So, I have no concern using these type of clamps even though I know others have had problems in the past. I personally suspect the problems are due to either using improper hoses or improper tightening. Most people over-tighten all fasteners, including hose clamps. I have used the general rule of thumb that the OD of the clamp once tightened should be about the same as the OD of the hose itself. So you are really only clamping down about the thickness of the clamp itself. I have installed hose clamps this way for nearly 40 years with good results. I see many hose clamps so tight that the hose is bulging where it exits the clamp. This is generally not a good thing. Any more than the bulge above my belt is a good thing...

Now off to order parts...
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1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
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post #13 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 11:16 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Thanks for the update.
Looks like a good time to bleed your clutch too.

later..Randy
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post #14 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 11:20 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

my first thought when I was changing the filter was - get rid of that short curved hose and use a piece about a foot long to get a big curve - not something they would want to do in production since it would add a bit of time feeding the loose hose into the tank.

agree with you re clamps, part of the reason I changed hoses outside tank last winter was because I had a tiny leak one hose on metal connection exiting tank and had to temp over tighten hose clamp to stop it and get to end of season, drip on start at overnight cold temps in fall, - hoses were losing flexibility with age (like me )

Gary
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post #15 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 11:37 am Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Thanks for the update.
Looks like a good time to bleed your clutch too.

later..Randy
The clutch is slipping and needs to be replaced. Fluid flush will occur then.

You can see the oil seepage at the case seams so I am pretty sure the problem is oil contamination. I hope to get through the summer before having to tear into the clutch. That is a much better winter job.

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post #16 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 11:41 am Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Still can't believe the price of these hoses. Now that I see how easy it is to get the pump out, I may risk some experimentation here. It seems to me that the u-hose could be replaced with a u-shape metal line with short straight hoses to connect to the filter and existing metal line. Wonder where I can find a short piece of tubing with the flared ends needed to hold the hoses on...

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post #17 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 12:13 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

How about this kit??
Ends could be cut off to make a smaller hose.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BMW...fp-hosekit.htm

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post #18 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 1:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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How about this kit??
Ends could be cut off to make a smaller hose.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BMW...fp-hosekit.htm
Someone else on the forum was planning to try this kit so I was going to see how it worked for them. I haven't heard anything further though.

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post #19 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 1:59 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
The clutch is slipping and needs to be replaced. Fluid flush will occur then.

You can see the oil seepage at the case seams so I am pretty sure the problem is oil contamination. I hope to get through the summer before having to tear into the clutch. That is a much better winter job.
I was looking at the sight glass and it is empty!

On another note this pump removal process was defined to be done on the side stand to pull residual fuel away from the pump. Looks like that may not be necessary if you do a good siphon. Also I have seen a few of these hoses with a split right in the middle of the bend on the side. But in every case they were along the length of the hose and not across it.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #20 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 5:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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I was looking at the sight glass and it is empty!

On another note this pump removal process was defined to be done on the side stand to pull residual fuel away from the pump. Looks like that may not be necessary if you do a good siphon. Also I have seen a few of these hoses with a split right in the middle of the bend on the side. But in every case they were along the length of the hose and not across it.
Yes, the oil level is right at the bottom of the sight glass. I just returned from a 4700 mile trip and had 500+ miles on the oil before I left. My LT will use about this much oil during each change interval. When the oil is at the bottom of the sight glass, it is usually due for a change. It has used this much oil pretty much since day one.

I prefer working on the center stand, particularly if I have to strip both sides of the bike. Since I wasn't sure if the tank on bike process would work, I was prepared to remove the tank if necessary. I used a siphon pump designed for filling a kerosene heater and it worked great. I wasn't sure the tube was getting to the tank bottom, but I removed close to six gallons and very little came out with the pump. So, I'd say the side stand won't hurt, but is bot required.

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post #21 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 5:17 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I've seen one straight hose rupture. I plan on replacing mine every 5 years = about $13 per year.

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post #22 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 6:23 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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I've seen one straight hose rupture. I plan on replacing mine every 5 years = about $13 per year.
Sound idea, but still crazy expensive. I don't think the combined length of these hoses is much more than 6". At nearly $60 for the set that is a cost per foot of $120 for rubber hose! Simply insane, even for BMW.

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post #23 of 44 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 9:25 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I had my fuel pump out when i did fuel/air filter change this past winter.U hose looked good. But I use Star tron at least every other fill up. I supposed to neutralize ethanol.Well we'll see.

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post #24 of 44 Old Jul 26th, 2014, 7:26 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

What hose clamps do most you guys use I see Voyager has a auto store one near his filter and the one down from it is a OEM one reason I am asking I am soon going to replace both hoses with OEM ones but what clamp I am not sure

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post #25 of 44 Old Jul 26th, 2014, 7:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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What hose clamps do most you guys use I see Voyager has a auto store one near his filter and the one down from it is a OEM one reason I am asking I am soon going to replace both hoses with OEM ones but what clamp I am not sure
I bought the 24K kit from BeemerBoneyard and their filter came with two clamps. I removed the OEM Oetikers and user the clamps from BBY. They have worked fine as have the similar clamps that came from RPW with the Jiffy-tite quick disconnects.

I have considered shelling out the bucks for the Oetikers tool, but I am not sure I see a need when the reusable screw clamps have worked flawlessly for me.

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post #26 of 44 Old Jul 26th, 2014, 8:11 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I use BMW OEM clamps.

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post #27 of 44 Old Jul 26th, 2014, 8:27 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I thought I read at one time on this forum that some guys were having trouble with that auto store clamp coming off and the tool you need to put the OEM clamps on is just the CV Joint KD Tool 3955 at 28 dollars

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post #28 of 44 Old Jul 27th, 2014, 7:43 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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What hose clamps do most you guys use....
I purchased my fuel filters from my dealer, the clamps he sold me were the screw type, but not the typical type you see at a auto supply store. They has a solid band to wrap around the hose.

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post #29 of 44 Old Jul 27th, 2014, 8:03 am Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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I purchased my fuel filters from my dealer, the clamps he sold me were the screw type, but not the typical type you see at a auto supply store. They has a solid band to wrap around the hose.
The clamp type has nothing to do with where they are purchased. There is no such thing as an "auto store" clamp.

There are the worm screw type clamps which are OK for low pressure applications, but they can damage the hose and don't provide even pressure. They have the advantages of being cheap, reusable and adaptable to variations in hose size.

There are what are typically called fuel injection clamps or band clamps that have an inner band around the hose and use a bolt and nut to provide clamping force. They work well if properly installed. Many people don't know how to install them so failures do occur. Their advantages are much the same as worm gear clamps as they are reusable and size adaptable, but not so cheap.

There are a myriad of spring type clamps, but again generally for low pressure applications. They are reusable, cheap and fast to install.

There are the ear type clamps such as Oetiker which work well for high pressure supplications and provide uniform clamping and don't damage the hose if properly sized. They are fast to install and fairly cheap, but do require a special tool and are not reusable, at least not reliably.

The main reason the factory uses them is because they are fast to install on a production line and pretty idiot-proof if the hoses are uniform in size. And the factory doesn't care that they aren't reusable even in applications such as fuel filters where regular removal is required.

Either FI or Oetikers work well for BMW fuel lines if properly installed.

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2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
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post #30 of 44 Old Jul 27th, 2014, 10:54 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

The bmw dealer provided me with the band style clamps. The "auto store" clamp I was referring to is the worm type.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #31 of 44 Old Jul 27th, 2014, 1:13 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
The bmw dealer provided me with the band style clamps. The "auto store" clamp I was referring to is the worm type.
Every auto parts store near where I live (NAPA, AutoZone, Advance Auto, etc.) sells many types of clamps. Ask for a "fuel injection" clamp and most stores will give you the right style for the higher pressure BMW lines.

If you want to stay OEM, ask for "ear style clamps" and you should get what you need. Just be very sure you get the correct size or the results will not be predictable.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
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post #32 of 44 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 5:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

My new hoses arrived today. Plan to install tonight and get the pig back on the road. The new hoses look to be a little shorter than the OEM, and the u-shaped one looks a little smaller on the inside radius, but the part numbers match so they must be right. Maybe the old ones have just swelled a little from 7+ years in gasoline and ethanol and who knows what else is in our crappy US gas these days.

I plan to install using 4 FI clamps so we shall see how long they last. The two on there now connecting the filter have lasted 3 years so I hope I don't have the problems that others have had. I am still contemplating trying to get someone to fabricate a metal u-shape line to replace the hose and allow two short pieces of straight hose to be used to replace the u-shaped hose.
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2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #33 of 44 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 6:18 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006lt View Post
How about this kit??
Ends could be cut off to make a smaller hose.
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BMW...fp-hosekit.htm
I used this kit pre-emptively last year. Have about 8k on it so far.

'15 GTLE


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post #34 of 44 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 7:42 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
My new hoses arrived today. Plan to install tonight and get the pig back on the road. The new hoses look to be a little shorter than the OEM, and the u-shaped one looks a little smaller on the inside radius, but the part numbers match so they must be right. Maybe the old ones have just swelled a little from 7+ years in gasoline and ethanol and who knows what else is in our crappy US gas these days.

I plan to install using 4 FI clamps so we shall see how long they last. The two on there now connecting the filter have lasted 3 years so I hope I don't have the problems that others have had. I am still contemplating trying to get someone to fabricate a metal u-shape line to replace the hose and allow two short pieces of straight hose to be used to replace the u-shaped hose.
Matt,
All these discussions about hoses inside tank getting old (also being a bit expensive and specific to BMW) got me thinking to search for solutions used by other motorcycle manufacturers for same problem (fuel pump+filter on modern fuel injection).

(1) Picture #1 and #2: Triumph Tiger 955 (2005) having a U shaped metal hose in between - part is available separately. But, obviously, more hoses and more clamps.

(2) Picture #3: Triumph Daytona 600 (2004): similar design as above but U shape metal hose is welded to a bracket assy - so not very compatible for us on BMW.

(3) Picture #4: Honda VFR 800 (2002): a clever and simple solution used on many fuel-injected Honda. The curvature metal section is part of the fuel-filter. Not a very generic staight filter, but uses the same part number for many of their bikes (sames filter)

(4) Picture #5: also checked a few Italian bike (Ducati, Moto-Guzzi). They have a design similar to what BMW is using in more recent "slant-4" engine (K1300S, K1300GT). A long curved hose with corrugated outside surface. This is similar to type of hose sold by "Euro-Moto Electrics" as generic replacement for many K series.
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #35 of 44 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 9:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Matt,
All these discussions about hoses inside tank getting old (also being a bit expensive and specific to BMW) got me thinking to search for solutions used by other motorcycle manufacturers for same problem (fuel pump+filter on modern fuel injection).

(1) Picture #1 and #2: Triumph Tiger 955 (2005) having a U shaped metal hose in between - part is available separately. But, obviously, more hoses and more clamps.

(2) Picture #3: Triumph Daytona 600 (2004): similar design as above but U shape metal hose is welded to a bracket assy - so not very compatible for us on BMW.

(3) Picture #4: Honda VFR 800 (2002): a clever and simple solution used on many fuel-injected Honda. The curvature metal section is part of the fuel-filter. Not a very generic staight filter, but uses the same part number for many of their bikes (sames filter)

(4) Picture #5: also checked a few Italian bike (Ducati, Moto-Guzzi). They have a design similar to what BMW is using in more recent "slant-4" engine (K1300S, K1300GT). A long curved hose with corrugated outside surface. This is similar to type of hose sold by "Euro-Moto Electrics" as generic replacement for many K series.
Interesting that almost nobody but BMW and the Italians uses a curved rubber hose. I suspect there is a good reason for this. Given that a curved tube wants to straighten when pressurized, I suspect this curved hose is getting cyclic shear stresses that a straight hose never sees and this may contribute to the failure.

I believe that Triumph and Honda understand this and use metal for the curved parts. I found a place that will make and bead custom tubes. I need to make a drawing to get a quote, but it would be easier to find an existing part I could just buy. I will look around and see if a tube like the Triumph uses is available separately. I think a curved metal tube with straight rubber connection pieces might well solve this problem forever.

I wonder if these other systems are lower pressure than the LT system. I am surprised that they mostly use the simple spring clamps that I don't think will take much pressure.

In my haste to get my bike together tonight so I can ride tomorrow, I forgot that I wanted to measure the diameter of the fuel filter tube, the diameter of the bead on the tubed and the wall thickness of the tube. Anyone have these dimensions? I may have to order my next filter early.

The good news is that my LT fired right up and purrs like a (tiger) kitten.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #36 of 44 Old Aug 1st, 2014, 9:29 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I've had that 'Swirly Gas Syndrome' before.

You gotta' be careful where you sit in the movies with that stuff.
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post #37 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 9:38 am
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
There are the ear type clamps such as Oetiker which work well for high pressure supplications and provide uniform clamping and don't damage the hose if properly sized. They are fast to install and fairly cheap, but do require a special tool and are not reusable, at least not reliably.

The main reason the factory uses them is because they are fast to install on a production line and pretty idiot-proof if the hoses are uniform in size. And the factory doesn't care that they aren't reusable even in applications such as fuel filters where regular removal is required.

Either FI or Oetikers work well for BMW fuel lines if properly installed.
Thanks for the info. I always wanted to buy a set of ear type clamps with tool but didn't know about Oetiker until now. I googled it and ordered a set of genuine Oetiker assorted clamps and standard pincer off Amazon for just under $50. I'll have lots of uses.
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post #38 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 11:10 am Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_McG View Post
Thanks for the info. I always wanted to buy a set of ear type clamps with tool but didn't know about Oetiker until now. I googled it and ordered a set of genuine Oetiker assorted clamps and standard pincer off Amazon for just under $50. I'll have lots of uses.
I saw that set on Amazon and it looks like a good value. Does it tell how to remove the old clamps? Does Oetiker recommend just cutting them off? I assume the tool has the leverage to do that.

I removed two last night and what a pain with just pliers and side cutters. I had to be careful as the one was on the plastic fuel pump outlet and I didn't want to break that! I assume the Oetiker tool provides a much easier removal of used clamps.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #39 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 2:01 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
In my haste to get my bike together tonight so I can ride tomorrow, I forgot that I wanted to measure the diameter of the fuel filter tube, the diameter of the bead on the tubed and the wall thickness of the tube.
Tube OD 0.316"; flare diameter 0.360"

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #40 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 3:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

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Tube OD 0.316"; flare diameter 0.360"
Thanks, John.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
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1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
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post #41 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 7:21 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Hypothesis confirmed. I removed the fuel pump and filter assembly and there is a hole in the U-hose at the top of the assembly. I will replace both hoses though as if one went the other may not be far behind. Since this failed on the outside of the bend just past the fitting, at what is probably the point of highest tensile stress, I suspect this is another design defect from BMW. It is just not smart to have a hose that is under fairly high pressure have such a tight radius and be submerged in gasoline. They should have made a bent metal tube for this location and just had a short straight hose section to connect it to the filter more like the slightly bent hose at the other end of the filter.

I am curious to know from others who have had these hoses fail, was your failure always the U-shaped hose or has the shorter and straighter hose failed also? Was your failure on the outside of the bend? Or have failures occurred on the inside as well?

I will attempt to attach two pictures:
1. A picture that confirms you can remove the fuel pump assembly with the tank on the bike. I know there was a raucous discussion about this some time ago so I decided to try that route first. Worked great. Removed the right side panel and the lower fairing and the crash bar. The hardest part was getting all of the tie wraps cut for the wiring and hoses so I could swing the crash bar out of the way without having to remove the one connecter that is attached to the bar.
2. A picture showing the location of the breech in the hose.

It took me less than an hour and that including siphoning out a full tank of gas. The siphon was pretty effective as I lost only a small amount of gas when I unscrewed the pump.

I will also note that the screw type hose clamps provided by Beemer Boneyard worked well. They have been on the bike for 3 years and about 19,000 miles and are still well in place as you may be able to see in the pictures. So, I have no concern using these type of clamps even though I know others have had problems in the past. I personally suspect the problems are due to either using improper hoses or improper tightening. Most people over-tighten all fasteners, including hose clamps. I have used the general rule of thumb that the OD of the clamp once tightened should be about the same as the OD of the hose itself. So you are really only clamping down about the thickness of the clamp itself. I have installed hose clamps this way for nearly 40 years with good results. I see many hose clamps so tight that the hose is bulging where it exits the clamp. This is generally not a good thing. Any more than the bulge above my belt is a good thing...

Now off to order parts...


My "swirly gas" failure was the short hose. It had a 1/4" split in it.

Robert

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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1994 R1100RSL (wife's)
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post #42 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 8:24 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I saw that set on Amazon and it looks like a good value. Does it tell how to remove the old clamps? Does Oetiker recommend just cutting them off? I assume the tool has the leverage to do that.

I removed two last night and what a pain with just pliers and side cutters. I had to be careful as the one was on the plastic fuel pump outlet and I didn't want to break that! I assume the Oetiker tool provides a much easier removal of used clamps.
I haven't tried it yet but was curious about removal. Instructions are sparse & vague. A Youtube I found shows using the tool perpendicular across the ear to shear the ear cutting the ring in half. Looks easy.

Jim
2003 BMW K1200LT (my favorite 2 wheeled land yacht)
2008 Yamaha FJR1300 (recent addition)
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post #43 of 44 Old Aug 2nd, 2014, 8:31 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I saw that set on Amazon and it looks like a good value. Does it tell how to remove the old clamps? Does Oetiker recommend just cutting them off? I assume the tool has the leverage to do that.

I removed two last night and what a pain with just pliers and side cutters. I had to be careful as the one was on the plastic fuel pump outlet and I didn't want to break that! I assume the Oetiker tool provides a much easier removal of used clamps.
All you do is stick a small screw driver in the top where the hole is in the top of the clamp and twist the screw driver and work it right off in just seconds
Jim it is not that hard at all you start with a smaller screw driver flat head first then get one just little bigger and twist it couple of times in the hole in the top of clamp

Gary
2003 K1200LT

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post #44 of 44 Old Aug 3rd, 2014, 5:04 pm
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Re: Swirly gas syndrome

I bought as set of end nippers from HF and just removed the "sharp" edge. $7 and it works like a charm. Now looking back I should have only dulled one half of the jaws so I would have a sharp half to remove the clamps.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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