Timing chain discrepancies - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 20 Old Jul 21st, 2014, 12:09 pm Thread Starter
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Timing chain discrepancies

Has anyone else noticed that the manual and EPC have the timing chain slide rail and guide rail reversed? EPC identifies the slide rail (#15) as the larger part while the manual identifies the same part as the guide rail (#3). Which is correct? The manual recommends that the guide rail be replaced every 60,000 km/36,000 miles although I see many here say it's unlikely to require replacement before 100,000 miles. I can't see any mention that the slide rail needs periodic replacement. So it would be useful to know which part needs checking.
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post #2 of 20 Old Jul 21st, 2014, 6:38 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

18 is the guide rail, is the part they recommend you replace, mines done 125k km nothing wrong with it

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
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post #3 of 20 Old Jul 21st, 2014, 8:26 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

They recommend the lining of the chain tensioning rail (11), the chain guide rail(15) and the thrust piece (? could it be 18?) be replaced every 60 K. But I have seen many well beyond 100 K that looked fine.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #4 of 20 Old Jul 21st, 2014, 9:31 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

On my 99, I changed them at 157,000 miles. They looked worn, but not to the point of eminent failure. I did it for peace of mind. ( that is worth the time it took)

71 Triumph 650 - 30,000 miles
76 Suzuki GT750 - 40,000 miles
85 1200cc Suzuki Madura - 107,000 miles
86 1200cc Yamaha Venture - 60,000 miles
99 BMW K1200LT - 158,000 (Sold)
09 BMW K1200LT -41,399 miles (and counting)
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post #5 of 20 Old Jul 21st, 2014, 10:57 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Years ago when I lived in San Diego, I thought I would replace mine, so I went to the dealer and asked for the parts. The parts manager looked at me and asked why I wanted them. I said because I was hearing a noise that sounded like timing chain rattle, and he told me they had installed ONE set in several years, and that was on K1100LT with over 175,000 miles on it.

I bought them anyway, and when I tore it down found the originals looking just like that, original. No noticeable wear, just polished areas where the chain rode. Replaced them anyway since I had it torn down. Shortly after found my noise was cracked exhaust headers, which I welded. Noise gone.

I do not feel there is any need to replace them until at least 150,000 miles.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #6 of 20 Old Jul 22nd, 2014, 1:26 am Thread Starter
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Thanks guys but the confusion remains. Linton says the guide rail is #18 on the EPC graphic and John says it is #15. Which is it? John: by "thrust piece" do you mean the chain tensioner thrust adapter (#25 in the EPC graphic)?
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post #7 of 20 Old Jul 22nd, 2014, 2:57 am
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

max bmw parts fische 18 guide rail, 15 slide rail
sorry mate for the misinformation I should have not said 18 was the part to replace, just do what the manual says

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
1976 Datsun 260Z
1989 Nissan 300zx TT

Last edited by Axle; Jul 22nd, 2014 at 3:34 am.
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post #8 of 20 Old Jul 22nd, 2014, 5:00 am
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Part 11, Chain Tensioner Lining is the one that will usually show the most wear, and is the most likely to break. It is pretty thin, and has retaining tabs that may break. Be sure you replace that one!

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #9 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 1:39 am Thread Starter
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Hi Linton. No problem, I appreciate your help. The problem is that this is (I think) a fairly unique situation in that there is a mistake in either the manual or the EPC graphic and I am just trying to find out which. There's no confusion about the chain tensioner liner (thanks David) but there is on the guide rail. Look at the guide rail on the EPC graphic (#18 on the parts list) and at the guide rail on the manual's graphic (#3) and they are not the same. Possibly some people are monitoring/replacing the wrong part (the slide rail) because of this error in the manual/EPC.
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post #10 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 2:42 am
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

aha! you are interpreting the first graphic as part numbers, they are not. they are just the steps in the removal procedure. graphic 2 and 3 are correct for part numbers

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
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1989 Nissan 300zx TT
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post #11 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 12:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Linton - the numbers I referred to are just labels, not part numbers.

Maybe I should just set up a poll and ask members which of the following is the guide rail: A or B?

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post #12 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 2:10 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

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Originally Posted by matamosca13 View Post
Linton - the numbers I referred to are just labels, not part numbers.

Maybe I should just set up a poll and ask members which of the following is the guide rail: A or B?

Regardless of what you call it I would think that "A" would wear more than "B" if they wear at all so I would replace "A" over "B" despite what the manual says. But David is correct I tore down a 100 K + engine with a ring failure and the A and B parts were fairly pristine while there was some signs of wear on the liner (11) for the tensioner.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #13 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 2:10 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

My guess is the manual is wrong.

Parts fiche at Max BMW calls A the slide rail, B the guide rail.
And from their functions, that makes more sense.

https://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fi...7&rnd=04282014

Doug B.
2000 LT purchased July 2013
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post #14 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 2:22 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Even the REPROM manual for the 05 shows it as A=Guide and B=slide.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #15 of 20 Old Jul 25th, 2014, 8:04 pm
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Nah, no need for a poll, A=Guide and B=slide the fische is wrong so you are correct, I am wrong, think I will head back out to the dog house now

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
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post #16 of 20 Old Sep 27th, 2014, 12:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

Thanks for the responses. This all seemed like a muddle to me so I asked BMW UK to clarify things. They eventually confirmed that picture A is the slide (or slider) rail and this is the part they recommend be replaced every 60,000 km/36,000 miles, together with the chain tensioning rail lining (AKA tensioning 'strap' or tensioning 'bar' or 'tensioner' lining) and the thrust piece (AKA thrust 'block' or chain tensioner thrust 'adapter') - three parts in total. So their Electronic Parts Catalogue (ETK) is correct and their Repair Manual (at least the version I have: UX-VS-2, dated 7/99) is wrong.

They also sent me a copy of more detailed service instructions (see the attached document UX-VA-4 Tensioner.pdf) that unfortunately contains the same naming errors as the original Repair Manual. The first page correctly details the "core activity" as:
(-) Replacing liner of chain tensioner rail, chain slider rail and thrust piece
but then on Page 3 the guide rail is called the slider rail (at the top) and the slider rail is called the guide rail (at the bottom). What isn't I think in doubt is that picture A shows the part that they recommend replacing, not picture B.

They told me that they "are aware of the issue and are looking to resolve the matter in future publications" and that the error "is due to different publishers using different terms in their publications". Maybe the error occurred during translation but I don't have access to a German version of the Repair Manual to check.

[Digression: This is I think what caused the error in the cylinder head gasket sealant recommendation. The German manual recommends "Drei Bond 1209" (their Silikone product range is available to download by clicking the Produkte link) and it was translated as "Three Bond 1209". Unfortunately there is actually a company called Three Bond and they also make a 1209 silicone-based sealant, but they don't have any relation to Drei Bond. Three Bond told me that they receive lots of calls from people looking for the BMW-recommended sealant.]

An additional piece of information that BMW UK sent me was the following screen shot of job code 11 31 705, which tallies with the "Core Activity" of the service instructions (job code 11 31 511).


To summarise, these are the three parts they recommend replacing every 60,000 km/36,000 miles:

Chain tensioning (rail) lining (AKA tensioning 'strap' or tensioning 'bar' or 'tensioner' lining) Part Number: 11 31 1 465 189
(Chain) Slide(r) rail Part Number: 11 31 1 465 011
Thrust piece (AKA thrust 'block' or chain tensioner thrust 'adapter') Part Number: 11 31 7 666 337



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post #17 of 20 Old Apr 17th, 2015, 1:12 am
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Has anyone successfully gone far beyond the recommended 36k replacement of these without changing them? I wonder if the 100k teardown bike had had them replaced twice previously?
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post #18 of 20 Old Apr 17th, 2015, 4:55 am
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

yeah almost every one who does their own repairs, I have done 130k km and so far they are the only things I haven't changed

Regards Linton
From the land of Kangaroo's and Koalas
and no koalas are not Bears



2002 K1200LT
2010 Suzuki GSX 1250FA (the Wifes)
2004 Cub Kamparoo Sprint
My Toys
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post #19 of 20 Old Apr 17th, 2015, 8:05 am
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Re: Timing chain discrepancies

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Has anyone successfully gone far beyond the recommended 36k replacement of these without changing them? I wonder if the 100k teardown bike had had them replaced twice previously?
Yes, very many. Even many dealers will recommend not replacing them that soon. The dealer I had in San Diego laughed about that recommendation, saying it was ridiculous.

My BMW V8 auto has plastic chain guides, and I did not replace them until 175,000 miles. One was showing signs of cracking (and snapped when I removed it) the others were still in very good condition.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #20 of 20 Old Apr 17th, 2015, 9:58 am
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I really appreciate you guys sharing your hard earned experiences with me. I really like this LT, it's everything I want in a motorcycle.
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