Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 5:27 pm Thread Starter
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Question Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

and how do you troubleshoot?
I am bleeding the brake system on the 05 as I have done in the past and following the instructions from John Zeiler's DVD.
Lately the front brake handle was getting spongier and spongier and the brakes were no longer the brakes I used to have. I am now riding the RT.
While doing maintenance work I found a leaky front fork tube, worn out brake pads and dried up original brake lines. I replaced the fork seal, front pads, and multiple brake lines.
While going through the bleeding procedure I found that the front lever does not come back, or comes back very slowly when the bleed valve is shut. If I pump quite a bit it eventually come back to its original position and firm. There are no air bubbles coming out of the bleed valve, and the level in the MC reservoir was normal and never low.
While waiting for an answer or advice on this I am going back to the garage to finish the bleeding on the other 3 circuits.

Gilles & Kathy
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2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
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86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
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For her I walked through the largest desert!
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post #2 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 5:53 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg View Post
and how do you troubleshoot?
I am bleeding the brake system on the 05 as I have done in the past and following the instructions from John Zeiler's DVD.
Lately the front brake handle was getting spongier and spongier and the brakes were no longer the brakes I used to have. I am now riding the RT.
While doing maintenance work I found a leaky front fork tube, worn out brake pads and dried up original brake lines. I replaced the fork seal, front pads, and multiple brake lines.
While going through the bleeding procedure I found that the front lever does not come back, or comes back very slowly when the bleed valve is shut. If I pump quite a bit it eventually come back to its original position and firm. There are no air bubbles coming out of the bleed valve, and the level in the MC reservoir was normal and never low.
While waiting for an answer or advice on this I am going back to the garage to finish the bleeding on the other 3 circuits.
Not that I know, but is the small hole that usually squirts fluid on the paint open?

Robert

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post #3 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 6:00 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

I don't have an '05 but isn't the front master a different circuit than the bleed on the front calipers?

I think that there is another bleed valve just for the front master cylinder .

Jack


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post #4 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 6:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouter-50 View Post
Not that I know, but is the small hole that usually squirts fluid on the paint open?

Robert
It sure is and tried very hard to do just that...

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
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2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
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post #5 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 6:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackd View Post
I don't have an '05 but isn't the front master a different circuit than the bleed on the front calipers?

I think that there is another bleed valve just for the front master cylinder .

Jack


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Yes it is a different circuit. But if the control circuit has an issue it won't send the correct signal to the electronics and braking is affected.

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #6 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 6:37 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Gilles,

I have found a few that would be slow to return on a full stroke. That usually means you are getting the piston into an area it seldom sees and there could be corrosion in that end of the cylinder. Best to not use a full stroke in that case. Try it again with short strokes and see if that doesn't clear it up. Also try pushing fluid up to the reservoir from the ABS unit. That usually gets a stubborn air pocket out.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #7 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 7:03 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

I had one do that on either the K100 or K11, do not remember which, got new piston kit from beemerboneyard

Yours seems kind of new for it to be bad but anything can fail

Gary
2018 R1200RT
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post #8 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 7:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Gilles,

I have found a few that would be slow to return on a full stroke. That usually means you are getting the piston into an area it seldom sees and there could be corrosion in that end of the cylinder. Best to not use a full stroke in that case. Try it again with short strokes and see if that doesn't clear it up. Also try pushing fluid up to the reservoir from the ABS unit. That usually gets a stubborn air pocket out.
Thanks John, I'll try pushing fluid up.
The rear control and wheel circuits went fine.
Now moving to the front wheel circuit, then try your suggestion.

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #9 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 7:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gary45 View Post
I had one do that on either the K100 or K11, do not remember which, got new piston kit from beemerboneyard

Yours seems kind of new for it to be bad but anything can fail
I was very surprised to have an issue as I don't recall anyone mentioning a problem with the MC.

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #10 of 27 Old Jun 1st, 2014, 8:44 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg View Post
I was very surprised to have an issue as I don't recall anyone mentioning a problem with the MC.
You could be the first LT needing one - something new to complain about

The one I had fail was pretty dirty in the bore on the outside, I ride in the rain, the bore and end of piston were marked up but new piston went in OK and performed fine, no leaks, cleaned up well before inserting new piston.

Beemerboneyard sells a kit for the LT

Gary
2018 R1200RT
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2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
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post #11 of 27 Old Jun 2nd, 2014, 9:46 am
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

I recently went to the dealer to have the codes read, they confirmed front servo malfunction. The exact code was 00430B "pressure modulator, front pump"

Although I had an excellent interaction with the dealer (Second Wind BMW, Merrimack NH) the fix is to replace the abs control unit (sometimes referred to as the modulator). Part cost: $2400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will not be purchasing said control unit, therefore I will become intimately familiar with it as I disassemble and attempt to repair.

"good news" is that this appears to be mechanical, as opposed to electronic, failure...now why do I think that? Not sure.

Tech note says "modulator did not acuate" i guess i will find out!!!!

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
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post #12 of 27 Old Jun 2nd, 2014, 8:43 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Good luck as there are two pump/motor units and two pairs of pressure transducers as well as all the little pistons and check balls.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #13 of 27 Old Jun 3rd, 2014, 2:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Good luck as there are two pump/motor units and two pairs of pressure transducers as well as all the little pistons and check balls.
So that's what $2,400 look like...

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #14 of 27 Old Jun 3rd, 2014, 2:32 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
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So that's what $2,400 look like...
Not really...for $2400 it comes all in one piece.

John Baker

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post #15 of 27 Old Jun 3rd, 2014, 4:58 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

I've had to rebuild one front brake cylinder.

Dave Selvig
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post #16 of 27 Old Jun 3rd, 2014, 11:48 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

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I've had to rebuild one front brake cylinder.
That's the way I am going; ordered the kit from beemerboneyard, but vacations will get in the way of getting work done. Dang!

Gilles & Kathy
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2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #17 of 27 Old Jun 5th, 2014, 4:42 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman View Post
I've had to rebuild one front brake cylinder.
Can you share specifics?

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
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post #18 of 27 Old Jun 5th, 2014, 5:41 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
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Can you share specifics?
I installed the rebuild kit from Beemer Boneyard on a LT . I don't remember why it wasn't my bike.

Dave Selvig
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post #19 of 27 Old Jun 7th, 2014, 10:23 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman View Post
I installed the rebuild kit from Beemer Boneyard on a LT . I don't remember why it wasn't my bike.
That would have been my bike. The front master was sticking causing the servo to run with out my knowledge.
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post #20 of 27 Old Jul 9th, 2014, 8:45 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

My master died last night.
Rode home with only rear brake and downshifting, all the way home from NYC 25 miles.
Any advice about rebuild?
Just ordered kit from beemer boneyard
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post #21 of 27 Old Jul 10th, 2014, 8:09 am
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkinskg View Post
My master died last night.
Rode home with only rear brake and downshifting, all the way home from NYC 25 miles.
Any advice about rebuild?
Just ordered kit from beemer boneyard
what year bike?

perhaps you have blown rubber brake line, for me hard to imagine a master cylinder would totally fail all of a sudden

Gary
2018 R1200RT
Past rides
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2000 K1200LT
1992 K1100LT
2000 V Star 650/Velorex sidecar
1985 K100RT
1965 R60/2
1960 AJS 500 single
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post #22 of 27 Old Jul 15th, 2014, 2:25 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Mine was a 2000 lt
I installed new rebuild kit ( piston with seals complete from BB)
went right in, not sure old was bad
Bled the hell out of system both calipers then abs unit
After that brakes are better than they ever were.

Another trick I learned, one caliper bleed screw was so stuck, flair wrench did not work, was afraid to break it.
Took a 6 point socket and was able to losen it, then I just used that socket to bleed both calipers and abs unit.
Previously using bleeder container did not work as well as using socket and just hold handle, while I tighten the screw.
It did drip fluid around a little but no big deal.

hope this helps
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post #23 of 27 Old Jul 17th, 2014, 2:41 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Gilles, how is the brake project going? Been a while since you posted an update.

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
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post #24 of 27 Old Jul 17th, 2014, 8:48 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkinskg View Post
My master died last night.
Rode home with only rear brake and downshifting, all the way home from NYC 25 miles.
Any advice about rebuild?
Just ordered kit from beemer boneyard
So front now feels pretty good, but I think I need to bleed some last air out, may be a little squishy, maybe hoses?

Now rear feels worse than ever and something started leaking.
Leaks onto exhaust.
Now maybe rear master, maybe when I am done ABS will work?
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post #25 of 27 Old Jul 20th, 2014, 11:39 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Update on my fix, after several weeks in hiatus due to girls going to college.
I replaced the piston assy on the front master cylinder, started putting things back together and tested the new MC; Good pressure!
But... brake fluid started squirting where the line from the MC connects to the hard line. That was the culprit all along but I had not seen any sign of leaks until today. I now know why I could not effectively bleed that circuit and actually I feel relieved to find it is not the ABS unit.

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #26 of 27 Old Jul 22nd, 2014, 5:27 pm
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Going to rip brakes lines off of front system tomorrow.
Then Thurs will get new lines made, about $25 each
I can write down lengths and see how it goes, I had a line made before with great results.

If my set goes well could have more made up.
My bike is a 2000
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post #27 of 27 Old Jul 22nd, 2014, 5:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Has anyone had a front master cylinder failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkinskg View Post
Going to rip brakes lines off of front system tomorrow.
Then Thurs will get new lines made, about $25 each
I can write down lengths and see how it goes, I had a line made before with great results.

If my set goes well could have more made up.
My bike is a 2000
Make sure the new lines are clocked just like the old ones so they will fit correctly and will be long enough. $20 per line is dirt cheap!

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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