Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 42 Old May 26th, 2014, 8:57 am Thread Starter
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Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Finally some nice weather that I can get the bike out. I went on about a 300 mile ride and seemed to have no problems until I came down off the highway I had a noise from the rear end. Sounded like the driveshaft went out of round because it was there then gone then there then gone real fast. Well I was only about a half a mile from home so I just went home slow. For the last leg of my trip it was about 70 miles on the highway but now in town the noise was real load and when I went into the corners it seam to slide a bit. I got the bike in the garage and looked at the back wheel and it is covered in oil. I did not do anything to it yet as I like the expert opinions from here first before I mess it up. I have read a few of the forums on here and it sounds like my final drive went out. OK my questions are is my final drive shot or is this just a seal? I am not sure when the oil went out being it did not make noise when I got onto the highway but who know I may have driven this for say 70 miles and I am sure that is not good. From what I have read the first thing I should do is pull the drain plug and see if I have metal shaving. If I pull the plug and there is no metal shaving does that mean I did not ruin the final drive? And vise versa if there is metal should I just look for a new final drive? Are there any special tools I am going to need to do this job? Is this a job that I could rebuild myself or do I have to send things out for machining? I also read something about shimming is there something I need to shim when going back together? I like to try things myself first and if I donít succeed I can always pay someone else to put it back together for me.
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post #2 of 42 Old May 26th, 2014, 12:08 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Drain the oil and take a look at what's in there. Big ole' chunks ain't good. That'll tell you all you need to know.
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post #3 of 42 Old May 26th, 2014, 1:08 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Sure doesn't sound good.

Just for info what year, how many miles?

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post #4 of 42 Old May 26th, 2014, 10:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

It is a 03 K1200LT with 36k on it.
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post #5 of 42 Old May 26th, 2014, 10:36 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Pull the drain plug and look for shiny bits of metal. Those are bad. Put it on the center stand and see if there's any lateral play in the wheel. That's bad. It is possible to rebuild most of the drives if it's just the crown wheel bearing. It does sound like your drive is damaged. It's impossible to tell if it's fixable until it's opened up.


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post #6 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 3:46 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Of all the FD's I've rebuilt I have only had to replace the black seal cover twice because of going to far after failure. If it needed a seal cover it adds about $250 to the rebuild.

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post #7 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 6:34 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcs213 View Post
Finally some nice weather that I can get the bike out. I went on about a 300 mile ride and seemed to have no problems until I came down off the highway I had a noise from the rear end. Sounded like the driveshaft went out of round because it was there then gone then there then gone real fast. Well I was only about a half a mile from home so I just went home slow. For the last leg of my trip it was about 70 miles on the highway but now in town the noise was real load and when I went into the corners it seam to slide a bit. I got the bike in the garage and looked at the back wheel and it is covered in oil. I did not do anything to it yet as I like the expert opinions from here first before I mess it up. I have read a few of the forums on here and it sounds like my final drive went out. OK my questions are is my final drive shot or is this just a seal? I am not sure when the oil went out being it did not make noise when I got onto the highway but who know I may have driven this for say 70 miles and I am sure that is not good. From what I have read the first thing I should do is pull the drain plug and see if I have metal shaving. If I pull the plug and there is no metal shaving does that mean I did not ruin the final drive? And vise versa if there is metal should I just look for a new final drive? Are there any special tools I am going to need to do this job? Is this a job that I could rebuild myself or do I have to send things out for machining? I also read something about shimming is there something I need to shim when going back together? I like to try things myself first and if I donít succeed I can always pay someone else to put it back together for me.
Your description of events is consistent with what I termed the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure.
You might do a DIY repair but I'd recommend that only for an experienced mechanic. Information in past posts on this site can help you with a DIY rebuild, but you should read and understand what to look for when the drive is open. Things to look for beyond the failed crownwheel bearing are the "creeping" input pinion bearing race, and the "spinning tapered roller bearing race", and the spinning hub in the crown gear.
Absent these problems, rebuilding the drive involves replacing the crownwheel bearing and measuring for preload.
My recommendation is that you: 1) drain the drive (you will probably find metal shards from the crown wheel bearing retainer. 2) remove the drive from the bike. 3) contact someone with the tools and experience at rebuilding these like Dave S. (aka Saddleman on this site).
If you are interested in learning more about the ways these final drives fail, and how to fix them, read my posts and those of others going back years on this site.
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post #8 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 8:53 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Kelly,
Help for DIY final drive rebuild:

I made a final drive video some years ago and presented at the Utah CCR. The original version was loaded on this BWM Luxury Touring server (and still may be) but was hard to find. There is a YouTube version is easier to find.

Someone took the video from this site and edited it and uploaded it to YouTube. The person who did the editing, added the flashy musical intro., and wrote "brakes" where he meant "breaks", and a few other give-aways, made it seem like it was his own work with the statement: "This video belongs to its owner." with no other attribution regarding the origin of the video. Okay, I put it in the public domain, so there it is. But he does have a video editor and did make the video easier to find and watch, so thanks to him for that.

The video is outdated. At one point I was going to ask a site moderator here to remove the video from the server because of its short comings and update it. But once I realized that it had been copied and uploaded to youtube I decided to just let go of it. Subsequent to making the video, I reached different conclusions about the causes of the "classic" crown wheel bearing failure. Those conclusions can be found in past posts on this site. Essentially, having studied a number of failed final drives, and read the reports of others, the conclusions is that crown wheel bearing failures are almost always due to excess preload shim thickness installed at the factory. This was not a design flaw, but rather an assembly error.

In spite of its shortcomings, the video still provides a valid method for replacement of the crown wheel bearing with proper preload. The video DOES NOT discuss other common problems which are often found during a final drive rebuild, i.e. spinning tapered roller bearing race, creeping input pinion needle bearing race, spinning trunion in the crown gear assembly. If you are going to attempt your own rebuild, you should be aware of these things so you know what to look for when the drive is open. If any of these other problems are found, the complexity of the repair increases.
HTH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn5zs8RslF4

Last edited by CharlieVT; May 27th, 2014 at 11:04 am.
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post #9 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 10:07 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

If your final drive is shot, which it sounds like it probably is, I recommend Dave S. (Saddleman). He is a stand up guy who will answer any questions you have about your rebuild. He rebuilt mine and it is working like a champ. He stands behind his service too.

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post #10 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 10:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Thanks commenting on my post funny I have CharlieVT and Saddleman and Hannigan ID written down from some of the post as I think they are the people that know about final drives and for the video CharlieVT. Not sure if I want to tackle it that far although it would be a satisfying job if I was able to accomplish it. I did drain the oil tonight and it does have metal shavings in it. I will try to post a photo of it. I did manage to follow the book on getting the final drive off but I got stopped by the floating bearing stud as I do not have a hex wrench that big so I will have to buy one. Anyone know the size? Most of the rebuild looks not too bad but I am worried that I might get the shimming wrong. Any ideas about what this is going to cost? Best place for parts or just get them from the BMW dealer? I am on limited funds right now so I would like to do as much myself as I can. I have to ask CharlieVT the oven that you are putting the parts into is not your kitchen oven is it? I actually have a oven in my garage that I used for powder coating small parts found it on craigslist for free it was only six months old. The woman broke the glass top and it was more to replace the top then buy a new stove.
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post #11 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 10:51 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

14 mm hex I think. Lots of us have the tools if you want. Usually ends up just costing you shipping. I did mine by following Curtis' video, and as you said, very satisfying to do, and not really that difficult.
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post #12 of 42 Old May 27th, 2014, 10:57 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

You can rebuild it on the bike if nothing is wrong beyond the crown bearing. Yes, the kitchen oven and freezer will do just fine for what you need. I just did one last week. Didn't have a thin bearing puller so I just cut the outer and inner races off with a Dremel tool. If you do this, make sure the cutting wheel is rotating away from the area where the hub seal makes contact. Very easy to nick it and cause a leak. I used a heat lamp to pull the hub from the case cover. Since the case is aluminum and the hub is steel, after 20 minutes under the lamp, the hub just fell out with the case supported on 2 x 4s.


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post #13 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 3:42 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

The jam nut socket is 30 mm & the hex is 12 mm.

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post #14 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 5:51 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Originally Posted by deanwoolsey View Post
You can rebuild it on the bike if nothing is wrong beyond the crown bearing. Yes, the kitchen oven and freezer will do just fine for what you need. I just did one last week. Didn't have a thin bearing puller so I just cut the outer and inner races off with a Dremel tool. If you do this, make sure the cutting wheel is rotating away from the area where the hub seal makes contact. Very easy to nick it and cause a leak. I used a heat lamp to pull the hub from the case cover. Since the case is aluminum and the hub is steel, after 20 minutes under the lamp, the hub just fell out with the case supported on 2 x 4s.
Hi Dean, Kelly,

It is true that you can replace the crown wheel bearing with the final drive on the bike. However, I'd suggest this as an "emergency" repair. I don't know how you could do the measurements for preload shim thickness with the FD still on the bike, and even if you could, it would probably be more trouble than just removing the FD and putting on the work bench.

Doing a crown wheel replacement with the FD still on the bike would be quicker and easier. But it is a short cut with compromises. As long as folks choosing this approach understand the limitations, it certainly can be done.

And, since the evidence is quite good that crown wheel bearing failures are due to improper preload shim thickness, just replacing the bearing without calculating for shim thickness would set the stage for a repeat failure.

Carrying a spare bearing and the tools to do a bearing change as you describe with the FD still on the bike is great road insurance. I have also suggested another short cut for "emergency" repairs, that is: if multiple shims are found on removing the failed crown wheel bearing, and one of the shims is a 0.15mm, leaving that shim out on reassembly is a good guess. Many failed crown wheel bearings were found to be over-shimmed and leaving out a thin shim is a SWAG fix.

All that said, for long term confidence in a rebuild, the best approach is to remove the FD, inspect for all the known problems, and rebuild with careful measurement for preload shim thickness. When that is done, the FD is likely to be good for >100K miles.
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post #15 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 6:08 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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.... it does have metal shavings in it. ....Best place for parts or just get them from the BMW dealer? ..... I have to ask CharlieVT the oven that you are putting the parts into is not your kitchen oven is it?
The pictures certainly suggest a problem. Sometimes a shard of bearing retainer will come out with the oil. You may find pieces of broken bearing retainer when you open the drive. The degree of damage to the bearing is related to how far you rode after the bearing really to break down. The damage to the bearing started many miles ago, but once you start to feel the vibration in the ride, things go downhill fast, and the oil seal leak is often causes by broken bearing retainer fragments tearing it.

When I was doing rebuilds, I always got bearings and seals from a BWM dealer. I used MaxBMW online ordering. They usually shipped very quickly, and M&Ms

Contact Saddleman with a private message on this site. When I stopped doing rebuilds I asked Dave to accept my referrals. I think he is still willing to do them. He will be more than fair and do exceptional work.

Yes, I have a very understanding wife. I used the kitchen oven and freezer for heating and chilling parts. Wash the gear lube off the parts really well if you don't want a really stinky kitchen! I once washed some motorcycle parts in the dishwasher, the white plastic liner of the dishwasher turned permanently grey. I bought and install a new dishwasher after that. Oh, and a parts washer too.
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post #16 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 4:42 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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The jam nut socket is 30 mm & the hex is 12 mm.
I forgot to say that I can loan or sell the cutout 30 mm socket & the long handle 12 mm hex wrench.

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post #17 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 4:56 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Curtis is correct. Doing the job on the bike is a quickie fix and most likely you'll have another failure. The bike I did had 66,000 on it and appeared to have been opened up once before, so my guess is that it'll last about another 33,000 miles or so before it fails again. The owner just wanted a quick fix. Curtis was kind enough to rebuild mine as I had an additional issue in the FD which I was much more comfortable with him addressing than myself. Dave will make sure it's done correctly, if you elect to have him rebuild it.


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post #18 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 4:57 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Can you have the spun pinion and taper problem without the crown wheel bearing being bad or does the crown issue cause the spun bearing issues?
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post #19 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 5:15 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Can you have the spun pinion and taper problem without the crown wheel bearing being bad or does the crown issue cause the spun bearing issues?
Separate problems, but sometimes found together.
The spun tapered roller bearing inner race, found most commonly around the 2005 year model can occur without any other problem.
When occurring by itself, in its early stages the only indication is very dark lube due to suspended aluminum particles in the lube. In late stages, instability of the crown gear assembly can cause a lube leak at the hub seal. In latest stages a wheel wobble may be evident.

I found it a couple of times just incidentally when I was doing a preemptive rebuild or a crown wheel bearing repair. But, even when found coincident with a crown wheel bearing failure, it is likely not caused by the crown wheel bearing failure.

Both the spun tapered roller bearing problem and the spinning aluminum trunnion in the steel crown gear are a result of a machining error resulting in an inadequate interference fit.
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post #20 of 42 Old May 28th, 2014, 10:38 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Thanks Dave for the offer for tools but I work at our local Ford Dealer as the Quick Lane service advisor so I have about 20 techs that I can go to and find tools. I did find them, one tech had a 30mm wrench and the other had the 12mm hex socket style. I did get the final drive off. CharlieVT video which I am following had me heat the cover and then tap a little and off it came. I started the clean up so I can work with clean parts and that is as far as I got. Alright now for the funny stuff. I donít have a parts cleaner so I was spraying off the parts into my oil drain pan. Well with one hand holding the part and the other spraying the part it started to slip so I was going to set it down and regrip and as I did that the part slip with of course my pan at the edge of my work bench which flipped the pan up and the dirty brake clean all over me. This my friends is why you should always wear safety glasses which I was or I may not be able to see what I am typing right now. So that ended the night as I needed to get into the shower to stop the burning. It does not hurt anymore so now it is funny. I did not get a real good look at everything but the bevel gear seams to look good and turns real smooth. The tapper roller bearing seam ok too. When I turn the crown wheel though I can feel the roughness in there. So that is my next step is to get that all apart. I again want to thank all of you for the help as you are giving me the confidents to do this.
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post #21 of 42 Old May 29th, 2014, 7:06 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcs213 View Post
Thanks Dave for the offer for tools but I work at our local Ford Dealer as the Quick Lane service advisor so I have about 20 techs that I can go to and find tools. I did find them, one tech had a 30mm wrench and the other had the 12mm hex socket style. I did get the final drive off. CharlieVT video which I am following had me heat the cover and then tap a little and off it came. I started the clean up so I can work with clean parts and that is as far as I got. Alright now for the funny stuff. I don’t have a parts cleaner so I was spraying off the parts into my oil drain pan. Well with one hand holding the part and the other spraying the part it started to slip so I was going to set it down and regrip and as I did that the part slip with of course my pan at the edge of my work bench which flipped the pan up and the dirty brake clean all over me. This my friends is why you should always wear safety glasses which I was or I may not be able to see what I am typing right now. So that ended the night as I needed to get into the shower to stop the burning. It does not hurt anymore so now it is funny. I did not get a real good look at everything but the bevel gear seams to look good and turns real smooth. The tapper roller bearing seam ok too. When I turn the crown wheel though I can feel the roughness in there. So that is my next step is to get that all apart. I again want to thank all of you for the help as you are giving me the confidents to do this.
Brake cleaner, tasty stuff, huh?

To help you rule out the creeping input needle bearing race: attached are pics of a "creeping" input needle bearing race. You don't have to disassemble to visualize this: with good light look into the space where the input bevel gear is located spray some brake cleaner in there as residual lube will make it hard to see if the bearing race is fully seated or not. (I recommend you wear safety glasses
If you find this problem, disassembly of the input shaft is required.

Also attached is an Excel spreadsheet I created to calculate needed shim thickness.
If you use the method in the video, just enter your observed measurement in inches from the dial indicator in cell A4 and the needed shim range will be calculated and displayed with the minimum acceptable shim thickness in cell C7 and the maximum shim thickness in cell E7. (Disregard the whole section below "BMW Service Manual Method")

HTH
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post #22 of 42 Old May 29th, 2014, 7:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Well I am not going to have time to work on it tonight as I have some family obligation to go to, but anyway I was able to look at some of the stuff. The inner race looks good and the bearing seams ok. I did check the bevel gear bearing for the creeping and it does appear to be tight up against the gear. I am going to need the pivot bearings though as after cleaning the inner race from one side fell out. I take it that those bearing are pressed in? CharlieVT I got from the video that to get the drive shaft out I just need to give it a good firm pry to get it out so I can press new bearings in or do I not need to take it out to get the bearings out? CharlieVT the shim spread sheet will not allow me to open it can you email it to me at [email protected] Thanks guys
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post #23 of 42 Old May 30th, 2014, 5:52 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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.....The inner race looks good and the bearing seams ok.

I did check the bevel gear bearing for the creeping and it does appear to be tight up against the gear....

I am going to need the pivot bearings though as after cleaning the inner race from one side fell out. I take it that those bearing are pressed in?....

I got from the video that to get the drive shaft out I just need to give it a good firm pry to get it out so I can press new bearings in or do I not need to take it out to get the bearings out?....

the shim spread sheet will not allow me to open it can you email it to me....
In order of your statements above:
1) Inner race of what looks good? Are you talking about the tapered roller bearing? As long as you can't pull the tapered roller bearing off its seat on the aluminum trunnion of the crown gear assembly, you have ruled out the "spinning" tapered roller bearing problem.

2) Nice to rule out the creeping race on the end of the input pinion bevel gear.

3) The swing arm pivot bearings are often "notchy" and this is a good time to change them. Here's how I removed them: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...earing+removal
Once you view this method of removing the pivot bearing inner races, you'll see why I remove the drive shaft U-joint.
Note that my method of tapping in the new bearing outer race into the FD housing has been criticized for risking damage to the bearing. I demonstrated this method for folks who don't have a shop press. It does have to be done with caution.

4) spreadsheet emailed....you do need MS Excel program to open the spreadsheet. I'm using version 2003 so any version after that should work.
HTH
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post #24 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 12:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Yes CharlieVT I am talking about the tapered roller bearing. Another night I was unable to get at the bike but a little time to look up parts. So this is my list of parts I think I need Crown wheel bearing # 33121242211, Shaft seal # 33127663482, Cover o-ring # 33111241257, Needle pivot bearings # 33172311091 and then of course the shims. This adds up to about $270 Do I have it right.
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post #25 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 7:19 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Yes CharlieVT I am talking about the tapered roller bearing. Another night I was unable to get at the bike but a little time to look up parts. So this is my list of parts I think I need Crown wheel bearing # 33121242211, Shaft seal # 33127663482, Cover o-ring # 33111241257, Needle pivot bearings # 33172311091 and then of course the shims. This adds up to about $270 Do I have it right.
Your list of parts is good. I often inspected the cover O-ring, and reused it if it was free of nicks or deformations.

I used MaxBMW online parts fische just to check numbers; I do most of my ordering from them. Even when they said a part was back ordered, it arrived pretty quickly.

And you are correct, that you have to wait till you have your bearing and do measurements before you can order shims.

A word about shims: You may need to order just one, or maybe two. Most shims BMW provides are in intervals of 0.10mm intervals. If you calculate you need a shim that is 0.35mm, you will need a 0.20mm shim and a 0.15mm shim. Also note that BMW does not provide a 0.50mm shim, in that case you need a 0.20mm and a 0.30mm shim.

When you get your old, failed bearing pulled take a minute and see what you had for shim(s) in there. Measure it (them) and tell us what the original shim thickness was.
In all the failed final drives I rebuild, I never rebuilt with thicker shims than original, always thinner. If you give us the original shim thickness and the new shim thickness, we'll have one more data point.

Also interesting is that BMW provides shims up to 2.8mm thickness. I don't think I ever rebuild a FD with more than 0.60mm thick shims.
(These shims are used in a number of different BMW model motorcycles. I almost exclusively did K1200LT final drives, and only a couple of RTs and GSs. Maybe these thicker shims were used in other models. All of the crown wheel bearing failures I saw were over shimmed. I have a theory as to way this may have happened at the factory, but that's another story. The method shown in the video will avoid the error I suspect occurred the factory.)

HTH

Last edited by CharlieVT; May 31st, 2014 at 7:36 am.
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post #26 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 9:55 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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If your final drive is shot, which it sounds like it probably is, I recommend Dave S. (Saddleman). He is a stand up guy who will answer any questions you have about your rebuild. He rebuilt mine and it is working like a champ. He stands behind his service too.
I second Dave as well. His communication through the whole rebuild process was excellent. He kept me informed on what he was doing throughout the rebuild process and when it would be done.

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post #27 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 10:13 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Your list of parts is good. I often inspected the cover O-ring, and reused it if it was free of nicks or deformations.

I used MaxBMW online parts fische just to check numbers; I do most of my ordering from them. Even when they said a part was back ordered, it arrived pretty quickly.

And you are correct, that you have to wait till you have your bearing and do measurements before you can order shims.

A word about shims: You may need to order just one, or maybe two. Most shims BMW provides are in intervals of 0.10mm intervals. If you calculate you need a shim that is 0.35mm, you will need a 0.20mm shim and a 0.15mm shim. Also note that BMW does not provide a 0.50mm shim, in that case you need a 0.20mm and a 0.30mm shim.

When you get your old, failed bearing pulled take a minute and see what you had for shim(s) in there. Measure it (them) and tell us what the original shim thickness was.
In all the failed final drives I rebuild, I never rebuilt with thicker shims than original, always thinner. If you give us the original shim thickness and the new shim thickness, we'll have one more data point.

Also interesting is that BMW provides shims up to 2.8mm thickness. I don't think I ever rebuild a FD with more than 0.60mm thick shims.
(These shims are used in a number of different BMW model motorcycles. I almost exclusively did K1200LT final drives, and only a couple of RTs and GSs. Maybe these thicker shims were used in other models. All of the crown wheel bearing failures I saw were over shimmed. I have a theory as to way this may have happened at the factory, but that's another story. The method shown in the video will avoid the error I suspect occurred the factory.)

HTH
I would be curious to hear your factory theory story.

When do you plan to tell it?

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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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I would be curious to hear your factory theory story.

When do you plan to tell it?
Me too Curtis!!

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post #29 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 6:32 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Okay Matt and John,
Here we go again

(Sugaring season well behind us, clean up mostly done. Last year I made 148 gal of Maple Syrup, this year only 86. Not a very good year for me. Weather was too cold.)

Now back to posting about final drives. Yikes!

I have alluded to my theories before in past posts.
First, has anyone ever seen or used BMW special tool No 33 2 601 ? If so, I'd like to talk to you about it.

I am assuming that the BMW Special Tool, or something like it was used during initial factory assembly.

This is the tool pictured in the BMW Service manual that is used for measurements for calculation FD crown wheel bearing shim thickness. I posted a pic of this tool in a previous post (first pic in the next linked post). Note that the artist's rendition of the BMW Special tool suggests that there is a gap between the tool and the outer race of the bearing. That suggest to me that the outer race of the bearing is not being securely or evenly stabilized with respect to the inner race of the bearing. In the Service Manual method, this measurement is to determine the distance from the outer race of the crown wheel bearing to the mating surface of the final drive case:

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...w+special+tool

Don (1dbweldor) fabricated some very nice looking tools. The one on the lower right side looks like a facsimile of the BMW special tool No. 33 2 601:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showpost...0&postcount=10

It seems to me that this tool is designed to hold down the crown gear securely while making measurements specified in the BMW Service Manual. When this tool is securely holding down the crown gear, the inner race of the crown wheel bearing is also secured since it is pressed on to the crown gear. HOWEVER, since the crown wheel bearing is a Class "C" (sloppy) bearing, the outer race can tilt with respect to the inner race. Very light pressure will cause the outer race to cant a little with respect to the inner race.

If the BMW Special Tool fails to secure the outer race exactly parallel to the inner race, then measurements will be off. Note that there is a cutout in only one location of the BMW Special Tool for making the micrometer measurements. Other points around the outer race of the bearing are not accessable for measurement and comparison. If the outer race is tilted, there is no way to determine it.

I fabricated my own "special tool" for making measurements as described in the BMW Service Manual by cutting up an old FD cover. See this tool pictured in the second picture in this thread:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...w+special+tool
Unlike the BMW Special Tool, my setup allows for measurements 180 degrees opposite each other. With experience I realized that these two locations could yield two very different measurements due to tilting or canting of the outer race. I learned to adjust the cover fasteners alternately until I achieved equal measurements at opposite points of the outer race. Only then was the outer race parallel to the inner race and the bearing not tilted. Once I achieved this, I found that I could get identical results from both the BMW Service Manual method and DMAN's dial indicator method (shown in my video).

It seems to me that the BMW Special tool is designed to hold down the crown gear but DOES NOT secure the outer race of the bearing.

IF the crown wheel bearing was a "tight" bearing, and no tilting of the outer race with respect to the inner race was possible, the no error would be introduced using the BMW Special Tool.

But, if my theory is correct, the BMW Special Tool does not secure the outer race and the pressure placed on the outer race by the micrometer when taking measurements will tilt the outer race. This results in an inaccurate reading and results in a THICKER SHIM when the calculations are completed. AND, if this is true, AND BMW service departments are still using this tool for FD rebuilds, even if they make a good faith effort to measure for shim thickness, they could still be getting an error resulting in excess shim thickness.

My theory goes like this: The engineers that designed the FD and specified the class "C" crown wheel bearing, didn't communicate all that well with the people that wrote the assembly manual. The assembly people came up with the special tool for making the measurements for pre-load shim thickness. They failed to account for the possibility of the tilt of the outer race during measurements which resulted in a bunch of FDs with excess shim thickness.

The beauty of DMAN's dial indicator method as shown in my video is that it eliminates the chance of bearing outer race tilt introducing a measurement error. We owe him a great debt for introducing his method to us.

Just to give credit where credit is due, here is the original post by DMAN describing his method.
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showpost...6&postcount=40

Last edited by CharlieVT; May 31st, 2014 at 8:26 pm.
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post #30 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 6:45 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Originally Posted by CharlieVT View Post
I'll be editing this.....

Okay Matt and John,
Here we go again

(Sugaring season well behind us, clean up mostly done. Last year I made 148 gal of Maple Syrup, this year only 86. Not a very good year for me. Weather was too cold.)

Now back to posting about final drives. Yikes!

I have alluded to my theories before in past posts.
First, has anyone ever seen or used BMW special tool No 33 2 601 ? If so, I'd like to talk to you about it.

I am assuming that the BMW Special Tool, or something like it was used during initial factory assembly.

This is the tool pictured in the BMW Service manual that is used for measurements for calculation FD crown wheel bearing shim thickness. I posted a pic of this tool in a previous post (first pic in the next linked post). Note that the artist's rendition of the BMW Special tool suggests that there is a gap between the tool and the outer race of the bearing. That suggest to me that the outer race of the bearing is not being securely or evenly stabilized with respect to the inner race of the bearing. In the Service Manual method, this measurement is to determine the distance from the outer race of the crown wheel bearing to the mating surface of the final drive case:

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...w+special+tool

Don (1dbweldor) fabricated some very nice looking tools. The one on the lower right side looks like a facsimile of the BMW special tool No. 33 2 601:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showpost...0&postcount=10

It seems to me that this tool is designed to hold down the crown gear securely while making measurements specified in the BMW Service Manual. When this tool is securely holding down the crown gear, the inner race of the crown wheel bearing is also secured since it is pressed on to the crown gear. HOWEVER, since the crown wheel bearing is a Class "C" (sloppy) bearing, the outer race can tilt with respect to the inner race. Very light pressure will cause the outer race to cant a little with respect to the inner race.

If the BMW Special Tool fails to secure the outer race exactly parallel to the inner race, then measurements will be off. Note that there is a cutout in only one location of the BMW Special Tool for making the micrometer measurements. Other points around the outer race of the bearing are not accessable for measurement and comparison. If the outer race is tilted, there is no way to determine it.

I fabricated my own "special tool" for making measurements as described in the BMW Service Manual by cutting up an old FD cover. See this tool pictured in the second picture in this thread:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...w+special+tool
Unlike the BMW Special Tool, my setup allows for measurements 180 degrees opposite each other. With experience I realized that these two locations could yield two very different measurements due to tilting or canting of the outer race. I learned to adjust the cover fasteners alternately until I achieved equal measurements at opposite points of the outer race. Only then was the outer race parallel to the inner race and the bearing not tilted. Once I achieved this, I found that I could get identical results from both the BMW Service Manual method and DMAN's dial indicator method (shown in my video).

It seems to me that the BMW Special tool is designed to hold down the crown gear but DOES NOT secure the outer race of the bearing.

IF the crown wheel bearing was a "tight" bearing, and no tilting of the outer race with respect to the inner race was possible, the no error would be introduced using the BMW Special Tool.

But, if my theory is correct, the BMW Special Tool does not secure the outer race and the pressure placed on the outer race by the micrometer when taking measurements will tilt the outer race. This results in an inaccurate reading and results in a THICKER SHIM when the calculations are completed. AND, if this is true, AND BMW service departments are still using this tool for FD rebuilts, even if they make a good faith effort to measure for shim thickness, they could still be getting an error resulting in excess shim thickness.

My theory goes like this: The engineers that designed the FD and specified the class "C" crown wheel bearing, didn't communicate all that well with the people that wrote the assembly manual. The assembly people came up with the special tool for making the measurements for pre-load shim thickness. They failed to account for the possibility of the tilt of the outer race during measurements which resulted in a bunch of FDs with excess shim thickness.

The beauty of DMAN's dial indicator method as shown in my video is that it eliminates the chance of bearing outer race tilt introducing a measurement error. We owe him a great debt for introducing his method to us.

Just to give credit where credit is due, here is the original post by DMAN describing his method.
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showpost...6&postcount=40
Seems a highly probable theory. I agree that Dman's method is the best you can do. Nothing better than using the actual parts to determined the clearance that needs to be shimmed.

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post #31 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 8:42 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Curtis,

Sorry I made you post again since I was the second post in the first thread you referenced Doooh! I keep forgetting you are up in Maple land and why you disappear from posting every winter. You coming down for CCR this year?

John
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2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #32 of 42 Old May 31st, 2014, 9:07 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Curtis,

Sorry I made you post again since I was the second post in the first thread you referenced Doooh! I keep forgetting you are up in Maple land and why you disappear from posting every winter. You coming down for CCR this year?
Don't think we'll make it John. I don't trust my final drive enough to get me there
Seriously, too much stuff going on these days. Would love to make it, but not likely.
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post #33 of 42 Old Jun 2nd, 2014, 11:32 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

CharlieVT thanks for the theory behind the final drive failures. Now for my theory YOU are a smart man. Well bearing is out and I think it is bad (see photo). Now to just and wait for the new parts to get here.
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post #34 of 42 Old Jun 2nd, 2014, 11:59 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

I once personally witnessed the conclusion of a FD rebuild at a dealership. The tech picked up the bearing out of a slow cooker full of hot oil and dropped it on the hub. Once it was cooled and set, he simply bolted it back on the bike since the FD was still attached. Draw your own conclusions as to whether he did proper measurements, etc. for the "rebuild". My conclusion was that they figured the rebuild was good for as long as the original had lasted and it was unlikely that the same person would own the bike when it failed again. I thought that dealership was a pretty good place until I saw that. Buyer beware.
Much better advice and assistance available around here..........


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post #35 of 42 Old Jun 3rd, 2014, 5:25 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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CharlieVT thanks for the theory behind the final drive failures. Now for my theory YOU are a smart man. Well bearing is out and I think it is bad (see photo). Now to just and wait for the new parts to get here.
Why do you think it is bad?

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post #36 of 42 Old Jun 3rd, 2014, 6:48 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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...Well bearing is out and I think it is bad (see photo). ....
Yes, that's a "classic".

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post #37 of 42 Old Jun 8th, 2014, 10:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Well bearing is on that went just like clock works heat the bearing and cool the gear slid right on. Getting the measurements for the shims is tougher than I thought. First attempt my make shift gauge set up did not stay still enough for me to think it was accurate and the cover cooled way too fast for any movement. So next attempt I learned to cool the bearing/gear in the freezer heat the cover and bought a gauge arm that will hold still but now I am having trouble keeping the final drive assembly in one spot and then the cover cools too fast. I think I need a heat gun on the cover so it stays warm. I need to figure out how to shim the final drive case so it does not move. CharlieVT you made that look so simple. Is there another method that I can use to measure and get good results?
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post #38 of 42 Old Jun 9th, 2014, 7:00 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Well bearing is on that went just like clock works heat the bearing and cool the gear slid right on. Getting the measurements for the shims is tougher than I thought. First attempt my make shift gauge set up did not stay still enough for me to think it was accurate and the cover cooled way too fast for any movement. So next attempt I learned to cool the bearing/gear in the freezer heat the cover and bought a gauge arm that will hold still but now I am having trouble keeping the final drive assembly in one spot and then the cover cools too fast. I think I need a heat gun on the cover so it stays warm. I need to figure out how to shim the final drive case so it does not move. CharlieVT you made that look so simple. Is there another method that I can use to measure and get good results?
Your dial indicator needs to be mounted directly and securely to the final drive housing so a little movement of the assembly won't affect the measurements. If you are trying to get measurements with the dial indicator attached to the work bench and not directly to the final drive housing you will not be able to make reliable measurments.

You don't need to chill the bearing.
Warm the cover in an oven. You can use a heat gun. Last option would be to use a propane torch. If you are using a heat gun or a torch one of these is helpful: http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...9465-8905.html

Some final drive covers are easier to get the bearing to slip in than are others. Clean off any corrosion or roughness from the bearing seat in the final drive cover with steel wool.

Add a light film of oil to the final drive cover bearing seat and the outer race of the bearing to help the bearing slip in the cover.

Go carefully. If you get the bearing canted in the cover and jammed in there, the forces needed to remove the bearing can damage the bearing. Of all the final drives I rebuilt, I know of only one failure, and I believe it was due to me damaging the bearing because of a problem like this. If for any reason you end up handling the bearing roughly, the best thing is to practice with that bearing but do your final assembly with a new bearing.
I learned from the likes of dshealy, RealWing, and others on this site who have professional education in mechanical engineering, how micro-spalling can set the stage for eventual failure. Forces applied through the bearing surfaces can cause microscopic damage of races and balls that are not visible but will lead to eventual failure. There is no place for the Big Hammer in this process.

There is a learning curve. Experience certainly helps. After studying these final drives for over 10 years and 50 rebuilds, I came to the conclusion that the most reliable way to get it done is to go to someone who understands the final drives. Not a BMW dealership. I used to suggest rubber chicken racing or anton largiader, they'd be a pretty good bet, but my confidence in saddleman or jzeiler is exceeded by no one (saddleman=>professional NASCAR engine builder, jzeiler=>Retired Navy, 27 years in Aviation Maintenance); and they have years of experience with the K1200LT. A few years ago when I stopped doing repairs for other folks I asked Saddleman if he would take my referrals, at the time he was happy to do them, and I think he still is. Both saddleman and jzeiler have helped me immensely over the years in my dogged pursuit of understanding in what is happening with these final drives, and both bring a lifetime of professional mechanical experience that I do not have. If you get to the point where you are lacking confidence the in results of your own efforts, you can't go wrong by shipping to either of these gentlemen.

You can do it yourself, but it is easy to make mistakes. Some drives are easier than others, you may have one of the hard ones. Try the hints I suggested above, go carefully, and plan on repeating the process many times until you are confident that you have reliable, repeatable results.
HTH
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post #39 of 42 Old Jun 9th, 2014, 6:18 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Even with the fixtures I have made to hold the FD & my dial indicator some of the black seal covers are tight to the bearing & you only have a very short time to get the correct preload measurement. I also have a fixture that holds the bearing up in the seal cover until I'm ready to measure the preload that way I never get the bearing out of square in the seal cover.

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post #40 of 42 Old Jun 9th, 2014, 11:41 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

Thanks guy donít know what I would do without you. CharlieVT the steel wool I think did the trick. Cleaned it up with that then heated it up then oil and I was able to slide it on with ease. I did heat up the cover twice and got 19 measurements. When the cover is getting cold I had one at .0025 and two at .0035 and when warm two at .005 five at .004 and nine at .0045. If I go with the .0045 and turn it into millimeters I get 1.14 The shims I had in there using a digital caliper were .60mm and .15 mm. The .15 is a little beat up I think from the bearing failure but the .60 seams ok. Should I reuse it or get all new? My service manual says that I need a .05 to .1 preload so if I reuse the .60 and order a .60 that would make me .06 over or should I just order a 1.20 shim and only have one shim?
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post #41 of 42 Old Jun 10th, 2014, 6:20 am
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

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Thanks guy don’t know what I would do without you. CharlieVT the steel wool I think did the trick. Cleaned it up with that then heated it up then oil and I was able to slide it on with ease. I did heat up the cover twice and got 19 measurements. When the cover is getting cold I had one at .0025 and two at .0035 and when warm two at .005 five at .004 and nine at .0045. If I go with the .0045 and turn it into millimeters I get 1.14 The shims I had in there using a digital caliper were .60mm and .15 mm. The .15 is a little beat up I think from the bearing failure but the .60 seams ok. Should I reuse it or get all new? My service manual says that I need a .05 to .1 preload so if I reuse the .60 and order a .60 that would make me .06 over or should I just order a 1.20 shim and only have one shim?
My observations: Your existing shim measurments make sense to me, a 0.60mm and a 0.15mm shim for a total of 0.75mm. That is a shim thickness in the range that I often saw in failed crown wheel bearing cases.

If your observed movement is 0.0045", my calculations make that 0.11mm. So your conversion to millimeters is off a decimal point. If you were to put 1.20 mm in, your drive would fail really quickly. These failures are due to excess shim thickness, so you should expect to be putting in thinner shims, not thicker.

Convert 0.045 inches to millimeters -> (0.0045in)*(25.4mm/in)= 0.1143mm
I'd round that down to 0.11mm.
BMW Service Manual specifies a preload range of 0.05mm - 0.10mm.

Therefore, your shim range would be 0.11+0.05= 0.16mm at the miminum
and 0.11mm+0.10mm=0.21mm at the maximum.

Therefore, you would use a 0.20mm shim. I have rebuilt a number of drives using only a 0.20mm shim, so that does not seem unreasonable to me. Your measurements are on the small side; not to say they are wrong, I'm just comparing to measurements that I was used to seeing. My observed movement using the DMAN dial indicator method was more typically in the range of 0.010'-0.020". But again, your measurement seems reasonable.

Given that your calcuated shim thickness is 0.20mm and you had 0.75mm in there, your final drive was over-shimmed by 0.55mm. That is why it failed.

My suggestion, check your measurements one more time and if you keep getting 0.0045" observed, order a 0.20mm shim and use only that one shim.

Your 0.60mm shim should not go back in there. You can start a collection
Attached image: some of the old thick shims I removed from failed drives:
I found I was removing thick ones which I couldn't reuse and was ordering new, thinner shims.
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post #42 of 42 Old Jun 10th, 2014, 4:51 pm
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Re: Need help again!!! Oil on rear wheel? Final drive shot?

I've never had any movement less than .017" on any of the FD's I've done. The spread on the movement of the crown bearing on all of the FD's I have done is .017" to .033".

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