another rear failure - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 28 Old Sep 8th, 2007, 6:10 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs down another rear failure

Friend of mine, lost his 06 rear yesterday. got it to shop before it failed on road ! He has less than 8K on his bike, not sure of exact mileage. and yes, he did have the rear serviced, but not at the 600 mile service.. He took it back to get the rear serviced after I told him of potential problems..

Jim Lawson 2016 R1200RT
Retired to NC !


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post #2 of 28 Old Sep 8th, 2007, 6:31 pm
 
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I have felt his pain. But it sounds as though he lucked-out even more than I did. Still sucks though...at some level.
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post #3 of 28 Old Sep 8th, 2007, 9:26 pm
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I know that I'm just waisting my keyboard.....but I would never buy another new Beemer, unless the dealer or BMW offered a lifetime warranty on the rear-end (including transportation charges).

I'm a long time BMW guy...so this whole rear drive thing is soooooo depressing!
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post #4 of 28 Old Sep 8th, 2007, 10:11 pm Thread Starter
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Cool BMW Car vs Bike Attitude

Seems so strange watching BMW car commercials, how they pay for all maintenance up thru several years of 100% warranty coverage ! Guess they are using the cash they are making on the bikes to cover the free maintenance coverage for their new cars !

Jim Lawson 2016 R1200RT
Retired to NC !


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post #5 of 28 Old Sep 9th, 2007, 8:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EzyMount
Seems so strange watching BMW car commercials, how they pay for all maintenance up thru several years of 100% warranty coverage ! Guess they are using the cash they are making on the bikes to cover the free maintenance coverage for their new cars !
This is just a big marketing ploy for them. They say that they will replace your brakes and rotors if you wear them out in under 50k miles. Unless you run your car at a race track or you are a very agressive driver, I do not see how brakes will wear out in 50k miles. Even if they did, what does a set of pads cost them, $50.00? The same for wiper blades, $30.00 also. Other maintenance items such as oil changes cost them very little.

Mike Trevelino
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2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #6 of 28 Old Sep 11th, 2007, 7:09 am
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Mike T is right. They only pay for "scheduled" maint items. They do charge an arm and leg for their service so its a nice benefit as opposed to having nothing at all. BMW are no fools. They know we thrash our bikes more than the 99% of the BMW car drivers. They can also bury the costs of maint in the more profitable cars than the bikes.

Jim

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post #7 of 28 Old Sep 11th, 2007, 11:14 am
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I will apologize in advance if I offend anyone; but, if you are experiencing such problems and frustrations with the product, then, why persist in owning BMW's? I have owned several BMW cars and numerous motorcycles. I currently own a 2007 BMW 335ci, 2007 K1200GT and 2007 F800ST. (Previous M3, 740il, LT, K1200S and RT) All were bought new like some of my previous BMW vehicles. Unlike some of you, I have not had serious problems with any of the vehicles I own. I have had no problems. I do not feel the dealer or mechanics or BMW are out to screw me and I prefer the BMW quality and safety over lesser options. If I were having problems to the level some of you are experiencing and could not get them resolved, then I would move on to another product--lesson learned.
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post #8 of 28 Old Sep 11th, 2007, 11:29 am
 
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A 100,000 mile Kevlar belt sure is sounding better and better all the time.
I Changed mine about a week ago, everything but the brake fluid, rear end, engine oil and transmission oil with 10,000 miles on it looked like it did the day I put it in.
No metal on the magnet in the rear end, just a little sludge, a little fine metal from the tranny, but not scary, normal wear? Hopefully good till 30.000 miles now.
This forum has sure saved me a lot of time and funds, thanks too all.
I don't have a lift and I'm still sore from laying on the concrete and standing on my head getting the transmission plug out, but at least mine does not have the electric hydraulic center stand in the way.
I am using Royal Purple full synthetic in both, rear end and tranny and have been since the 12,ooo mile mark. here's a link or two on it.

http://www.synerlec.com/techa/faqsa.html#mo1a
http://www.synerlec.com/techi/whyrpi.html
After pouring over there web site and reading about it I switched from BMW full synthetic to Royal Purple.
Will it make a difference, who knows
NAPA Auto Parts carries it.

2000 k1200lt Canyon Red
Bought it new

Gone but not forgotten
60 something Ducatti 250 Desmo "First bike when I was 16"
750 suzuki water buffalo
850 Moto Guzzi Eldorado " left the church on it when we got married almost 34 years ago"
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post #9 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 10:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scout70
I will apologize in advance if I offend anyone; but, if you are experiencing such problems and frustrations with the product, then, why persist in owning BMW's? I have owned several BMW cars and numerous motorcycles. I currently own a 2007 BMW 335ci, 2007 K1200GT and 2007 F800ST. (Previous M3, 740il, LT, K1200S and RT) All were bought new like some of my previous BMW vehicles. Unlike some of you, I have not had serious problems with any of the vehicles I own. I have had no problems. I do not feel the dealer or mechanics or BMW are out to screw me and I prefer the BMW quality and safety over lesser options. If I were having problems to the level some of you are experiencing and could not get them resolved, then I would move on to another product--lesson learned.
+1 for what Scout says above. I too, have owned numerous BMW cars over a 20+ year period (my most favorite being a wickedly fast recent model Dinan M5 and my daily driver, an X5) and while you do have to keep up with periodic maintenance, I've not had any catastrophic failures to date. Even being a newbie to this site & K-Bikes I'm painfully aware of the final drive failures and a new K1200GT is not far off my radar screen. I just know to dutifully have the gear oil changed at 600 miles and do so often after that. Their cars and bikes are worth the extra bit of attention in my mind.

Having said that, I do sympathize with all the existing owners who have encountered final drive failures. As a favorite author is fond of saying, "adventures just suck when you're having them".

Regards,

David
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post #10 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 11:35 am
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FD failures

An HD rider friend of mine had a "100,000 mile kevlar belt" fail recently at 25,000 or so on an '01 Road King. Cost him $600 for that plus a few extras that all bikes seem to need when they are in for repair. Certainly not the $2000 + for a final drive replacement but still, it happens to other brands.

Mike

Redrider
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2003 K1200RS


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post #11 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 12:00 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002redrider
An HD rider friend of mine had a "100,000 mile kevlar belt" fail recently at 25,000 or so on an '01 Road King. Cost him $600 for that plus a few extras that all bikes seem to need when they are in for repair. Certainly not the $2000 + for a final drive replacement but still, it happens to other brands.

Mike


I've worked too long in Indy shops on HD's

Very seldom does a rear belt fail prematurely on a HD it is usually because something got caught in there or someone had improperly adjusted the belt and that rider liked doing burnouts

There is no issue on hd belts like our final drive failures

period

Tom
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post #12 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 12:23 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgs
I've worked too long in Indy shops on HD's

Very seldom does a rear belt fail prematurely on a HD it is usually because something got caught in there or someone had improperly adjusted the belt and that rider liked doing burnouts

There is no issue on hd belts like our final drive failures

period

Tom
Well, it's probably like final drives in that everybody knows someone who's lost a belt. A buddy of mine sucked up a stone on a gravel road with his Harley and sliced his belt. Getting something "caught in there" is just as much of a liability as a failed rear drive. Even more so if you ride gravel roads.

Regards,
-joel
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post #13 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 12:54 pm
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New BMW oner

I recently purchased a well-kept 2002 K1200 LT. I was drawn to the Beemer because of the reputation of quality and reliability. Now, I hear rumors of serious rear-end failures. However, so far that is all they are, rumors. I would like to see some statistics verifying the frequency of failures and if there is a common element to the failures. Until then, I really cannot take them seriously because there is not supporting data showing the model and years of the bikes affected, mileage, maintenance records, and failure occurence per number of bikes. In other words what is the percentage of failure.

Before purchasing the Beemer, I rode Harleys for 30 years and found them fairly reliable, if meticulously maintained. However, when I sold my 86 FXRD, I had experienced mechanical failure of cam bearings, drive sprocket splines, lifters, cam shaft, and armature splines. As far as the belt being fail safe, not so. Several friends had belt failures at low miles, one came apart on the first ride. So far, I really like my LT, it handles well and is a joy to ride. I do not want a germ of fear nagging at my mind when I am on highway 50, 100 miles from a town. Please give me some firm data on the frequency of these failures.

Walkingdude.
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post #14 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 1:10 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
Well, it's probably like final drives in that everybody knows someone who's lost a belt. A buddy of mine sucked up a stone on a gravel road with his Harley and sliced his belt. Getting something "caught in there" is just as much of a liability as a failed rear drive. Even more so if you ride gravel roads.

Regards,
-joel

Of course there is an alternative to both ... and it's been around a long time.
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post #15 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 1:10 pm
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Originally Posted by walkingdude
I recently purchased a well-kept 2002 K1200 LT. I was drawn to the Beemer because of the reputation of quality and reliability. Now, I hear rumors of serious rear-end failures. However, so far that is all they are, rumors. I would like to see some statistics verifying the frequency of failures and if there is a common element to the failures. Until then, I really cannot take them seriously because there is not supporting data showing the model and years of the bikes affected, mileage, maintenance records, and failure occurence per number of bikes. In other words what is the percentage of failure.

Before purchasing the Beemer, I rode Harleys for 30 years and found them fairly reliable, if meticulously maintained. However, when I sold my 86 FXRD, I had experienced mechanical failure of cam bearings, drive sprocket splines, lifters, cam shaft, and armature splines. As far as the belt being fail safe, not so. Several friends had belt failures at low miles, one came apart on the first ride. So far, I really like my LT, it handles well and is a joy to ride. I do not want a germ of fear nagging at my mind when I am on highway 50, 100 miles from a town. Please give me some firm data on the frequency of these failures.

Walkingdude.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

your in the wrong place for this!

BTW I've worked on Harley that long and owned them myself that long, there is no issue with drive belts on HD, period, been around way too many high mileage HD's

we also have close to 300k miles on bmw's now to boot since 2002

want to minimize the chance of final drive leaving you stranded?

I suggest changing the Final Drive fluids with 80-90wt Valvoline GL-5 Dino lube with ever 6k oil change, it costs pennies to do so, lets you keep a eye on the fluid to see if your getting any metal flakes in it.

and while traveling I put her on the centerstand and feel the rear wheel every morning, it should be nice and smooth,

That is how I kept from getting stranded when my meticulously mainted LT's final Drive went bad at 52k miles (oh btw I bought the bike new) I felt a little vibration and roughness in the wheel, dropped the fluid and saw flakes of metal, it was then trailer back to Ga.

this final drive now has 100k miles on it, too bad the new style final drives are failing as well


edited - I almost forgot!

this is GarUnteed to work - or not for you only time will tell

Last edited by tmgs; Sep 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pm. Reason: to add disclaimer
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post #16 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 1:12 pm
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Originally Posted by CalLT
Of course there is an alternative to both ... and it's been around a long time.
sure has

walking
ok ok someone had to say it!
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post #17 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 2:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
Even more so if you ride gravel roads.
...or bar parking lots...

Ted

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post #18 of 28 Old Sep 12th, 2007, 3:03 pm
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Welcome, Bill.

From someone who has had 2 1/2 final drive failures on two LTs (two bearings and one seal), I can assure you that these are more than just rumors.

May I suggest you try our search feature under "final drive failures" or even "NHTSA"? That should give you lots to think about. Also, you can look in our Surveys and Polls forum for a lot of the detailed information that you're asking about.

We've been over and over this for the past 6 or 7 years on this site and its predecessors. The bottom line is that the LT dives do fail at roughly a 4-6% rate. It doesn't seem to matter what kind of oil you use, how many miles are on the bike, whether you ride solo or two-up, whether you do lots of fast interstates or aggressive back roads, whether you pull a trailer of not, etc. Near as we can tell, there were some problems with the bearing supplier, and also some issues with manufacturing tolerances. Failures seemed to drop off on the '03 models, but then reappeared in the '05 bikes.

BMW's response was to replace a bunch of them under warranty, but then that tapered off as well. They redesigned the final drive for the new R and K bikes, but these are also seeing some failures.

At this point it's just considered a known weak point in the LT, like the dry clutch. The chance of having a failure on a particular bike is pretty small, but not insignificant. Most of us just change the fluid every 3-6K miles, check occasionally for play in the rear wheel, then just ride the bikes and don't worry too much about it unless it happens to fail.

Ken
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post #19 of 28 Old Sep 16th, 2007, 2:58 pm
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Not all FD replacement/failure is due to lubrication

My 2007 KGT had a rear flange spline failure. Actually made it home before noticing 1/4" slop in rear wheel, never felt it on highway. Did notice a slight (raingroove type feeling) wobble on gas stop like 120 miles out, but thought it was front wheel which was cupping badly.

6200 miles, running BT020 36 psi & 42 psi.

There is slop in spline fit between axle and wheel flange (part that rear wheel bolts to). Warranty will most likely replace FD, but the FD was fine, still going strong.
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post #20 of 28 Old Sep 16th, 2007, 9:24 pm
 
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Well ; I've got 8850mls on the KGT now and I had changed the final drive oil @ 900mls, and BWM stated it wasn't neccesary. I'm assuming this should be a periodic oil change and done soon. I want to know @what interaval to change at. I hope I didn't go too long w/o change. What is a good grade and viscosity oil to use. The last rear oil change I used the BMW 75-90 rear drive oil. I dont think it's synthetic. I usually use Amsoil's synthetic series 2000 gear oils in my Harley trans w/no prob. If not; what would you recommend?

Howie...
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post #21 of 28 Old Sep 16th, 2007, 10:05 pm
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To address Scout70, the rear end issue is not 100% of the fleet nor is it predictable. You have a great bike until it fails. To sell the bike to remove the issue simply puts the problem on someone else's shoulders. The dilemma is that the bike is a great machine marred by poor support on this particular issue. The fact that we, as a community, have been unable to organize well enough or make a dent in BMW's determination to avoid addressing the problem head-on suggests it is an issue of large economic value. Obviously someone in Germany has made a decision not to address this publicly and no org has been able to sway them or force a fix.

To avoid the bike because it might have a failure is pointless. It sends no message to BMW. The correct action is for a vehicle manufacturer to properly address mechanical issues and rectify them to avoid injury to current and future riders. Persistent complaints, discussion, letters and more is the eventual way to getting a resolution. We bought the product with an understanding that it would work properly. Given that BMW never shows up to our K1200LT CCRs tells me volumes that they understand the issue quite clearly and have no immediate intention to address the issue.

Some day when a reputable magazine publishes an article discussing the rear end issue, we might see a reaction. Until then, owners must keep the complaints and discussion flowing as it is more powerful than a quick sell. The dialog also helps the new buyer be aware of the problem because BMW certainly won't do that in the literature.

Paul Miller, Calgary
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post #22 of 28 Old Sep 16th, 2007, 10:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardRichman
I'm assuming this should be a periodic oil change and done soon. I want to know @what interaval to change at.
According to BMW, just change it at 600 miles then forget about it. My bike was changed at 80 miles, then at 600. It's in for a 24K service now and I asked to have the rear drive fluid changed as well. Heck, it's been 6 months since the last change so I figure it's due. I'll probably start doing it every 12K or 24K from now, depending on how I feel once I get settled enough to do my own services.

As for type of oil, just follow whatever weight and specification that BMW recommends and you should be fine.

Ken
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post #23 of 28 Old Sep 17th, 2007, 7:16 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scout70
I will apologize in advance if I offend anyone; but, if you are experiencing such problems and frustrations with the product, then, why persist in owning BMW's? I have owned several BMW cars and numerous motorcycles. I currently own a 2007 BMW 335ci, 2007 K1200GT and 2007 F800ST. (Previous M3, 740il, LT, K1200S and RT) All were bought new like some of my previous BMW vehicles. Unlike some of you, I have not had serious problems with any of the vehicles I own. I have had no problems. I do not feel the dealer or mechanics or BMW are out to screw me and I prefer the BMW quality and safety over lesser options. If I were having problems to the level some of you are experiencing and could not get them resolved, then I would move on to another product--lesson learned.
No offense taken. Try keeping one for a few years. Unlike Toyotas I can
guarantee you'll see problems. My sister has an 02 Camry with 238,000. Timing chains, tires and brakes have been replaced. My brother has an 00
Camry with 132,000. No problems other than maintenance. My brother in law had an 02 BMW 7 something with four doors. It was in the shop more than a butcher and was more expensive to maintain than a 25 yeor old mistress.
He now drives a Nissan.
I have an LT and a Yamaha FJR. Long trips I take the FJR. I want to get there.

Hello 07 R1200S
Bye2006 LT
1982 R65
Buy More Warranty!
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post #24 of 28 Old Sep 17th, 2007, 7:46 am
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Originally Posted by pjdm
To avoid the bike because it might have a failure is pointless. It sends no message to BMW.
Pointless? for who? maybe for those of us that still own BMW's but not for someone who may not like the idea of getting stranded late at night in the middle of no where.

dang I still get a laugh over some of the attitudes toward a reoccurring problem.
Quote:

<snip>
The fact that we, as a community, have been unable to organize well enough or make a dent in BMW's determination to avoid addressing the problem
There is something we can change, I can talk to my admin when I get back to FL, and see about a database - a website dedicated to final drive problems, maybe if all the data from all the models and grouups is in one place I/we can submit it to the NHTSA and say here is (insert real numbers here) final drive failures across all model lines that have the same failures. Maybe then something will motivate BMW MoCO to fix the issues.

Quote:

Some day when a reputable magazine publishes an article discussing the rear end issue, we might see a reaction. Until then, owners must keep the complaints and discussion flowing as it is more powerful than a quick sell. The dialog also helps the new buyer be aware of the problem because BMW certainly won't do that in the literature.
until anyone publishes real numbers over the entire line not much will get done, I had taken a quick look at the nhtsa site just for giggles, to see 5 failures over 3 different categories wil do nothing for a particualry model line and year


here just for your reference - for such small numbers over the years I took a look at, no one would do anything particularly anyone with power like the NHTSA

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27849

Tom
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post #25 of 28 Old Sep 17th, 2007, 7:56 am
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Given that BMW never shows up to our K1200LT CCRs
Actually, they've been to three.



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post #26 of 28 Old Sep 17th, 2007, 9:48 am
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Actually 4

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At Santa Fe and Breckenridge, the BMW rep met with the group


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post #27 of 28 Old Sep 17th, 2007, 1:37 pm
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When an OEM attends a conference of owners I expect that to be a formal presentation to the group with statistics, list of problems and solutions and some idea of what improvements are coming to promote sales and show the level of product support. That is what I've experienced in other owner conferences. For a BMW rep to attend as a non-participant doesn't count in my mind. I just can't recall them actively getting involved in the final drive discussion or making any presentation but perhaps they did at CCR or some other gathering. Thanks for updating that list where they did attend.

Paul Miller, Calgary
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post #28 of 28 Old Sep 17th, 2007, 2:14 pm
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Remember that BMW NA (North America) and BMW AG (Germany) are separate entities. The US group does have strong ties with the mother company, but even they can only do so much. I think overall BMW NA has done a pretty good job of covering many of the final drive failures even out of warranty, but they can't force a redesign unless the mother company agrees.

Yes, it sucks if one fails on your bike. I've had it happen 2 1/2 times now (two bearings and one seal on two LTs), but I just got them fixed and kept riding. I think this issues does damage BMW's reputation for quality machines and costs them sales, but I'm guessing not as bad as the new bikes are bringing in new buyers.

The bottom line is that they will never openly admit there is a problem, they are working on permanent fixes (at least on the new bikes), and if you buy a BMW now you just have to be aware of this weak point and consider it along with all the other plusses and minuses.

Then Just Ride It.

Ken
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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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