1200RT to 1200GT - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 22 Old Aug 13th, 2007, 12:41 pm Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 71
1200RT to 1200GT

I have had my 1200RT about 8 months. I have been experiencing increasing levels of "buyer's remorse" wondering why I did not purchase the 1200GT.

I am interested in opinons from any GT riders who moved from a 1200RT to the GT. I am very performance-minded in my riding and it is from that perspective from which I have been beating myself up wondering if I bought the wrong bike [for me that it is. I have nothing negative to say about the RT].

Thanks,

P.S. Note that my avatar is a pic from a Track Day at Gateway Int'l Raceway in the greater St. Louis area. I am on my RT. I would love to run a GT out there!
Nodakgus is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 Old Aug 13th, 2007, 5:53 pm
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: arma, ks, usa
Posts: 45
rt v gt

I've got both. My wife fits better on the RT but really wants the GT. (she likes the power). We put lower shocks on it to make hers. I am a twin type, I'm thinking that I should have got a RT, so we are at loggerheads.

As for your question, I feel the RT is a better all around bike for me. While the power is fun, the type of roads I like are better suited for the RT. The GT is just a bit more work in the tight stuff.

It comes down to what you like to ride. Both are great bikes.
ksrob is offline  
post #3 of 22 Old Aug 13th, 2007, 7:50 pm
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,905
I have never owned an RT, but I think that I've ridden one enough to know how one performs. The RT and the GT are simply not in the same class . . . especially when talking about track use. The GT will simply walk (run?) away from an RT when coming out of a corner and into any straight-away.

I rode the Cherohala Skyway along with a very capable 1200 GS rider, and I passed him on the inside in a tight corner. He and I then 'opened them up' and he just simply did not have enough bike to keep up. Not even close. I almost felt sorry for him.

There's lots of bikes out there that will out-perform a K1200GT, but most of those can't take you across the country and back as easily as the GT does. And that I know for sure.

This post is in no way, shape, or form a dig on the RT, GS, or any Boxer-powered bike. I love em all and wish I could own them all. But based on the original post, I just adding MY 2 cents worth. YMMV
messenger13 is offline  
 
post #4 of 22 Old Aug 29th, 2007, 7:52 pm
Senior Member
 
eng943's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: , ,
Posts: 214
I own an 06 RT presently, but have had some second thoughts about a GT. My impressions are this.

The RT is much more fun in the tight stuff than the GT. It is lighter and notably more flickable due to the lower center of gravity. By contrast the GT takes a convincing shove to get into tight corners. I beleive I can ride an RT faster through corners than I can a GT despite the difference in HP.

If I had to pick a bike for sustained high speed (90-100 mph plus) in comfort, I think the GT would get the nod. The GT is a great bike, and handles fast sweepers and interstate extremely well. However when the turns get tight, the RT is the faster and easier bike to ride. It's also the bike I'd rather do a 1,000 mile day on.

I really like the GT, but I have a hard time convincing myself to compromise on handling for the sake of more horsepower. That said, I may buy a GT next year to scratch that itch.
eng943 is offline  
post #5 of 22 Old Aug 29th, 2007, 8:12 pm
IBR# 366
 
meese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 16,427
Garage
For me it was simpler than all that. I'm just not a Boxer guy. The RT is a great bike and I know lots of folks who are very happy with them. But I've been riding inline fours so long that anything else just feels wrong.

And the GT is a great long distance bike. It took some ergonomic tweaks, but then again so did my LT. I've done many 1K+ days on my GT and find it just as suited for that as for the fun roads along the way.

In the end, you really gotta ride them both then decide for yourself.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
meese is offline  
post #6 of 22 Old Aug 30th, 2007, 4:19 am
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by eng943
The RT is much more fun in the tight stuff than the GT. It is lighter and notably more flickable due to the lower center of gravity. By contrast the GT takes a convincing shove to get into tight corners. I beleive I can ride an RT faster through corners than I can a GT despite the difference in HP.
The RT is some 25 to 30 pounds lighter. "Notably" lighter? I don't think so... Are you sure you're not referring to the older GT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eng943
However when the turns get tight, the RT is the faster and easier bike to ride. It's also the bike I'd rather do a 1,000 mile day on.
We'll see if your tune changes once you put some real miles on a GT. I know one thing, I sure would love to run with you awhile on your RT. I think some of your myths would soon evaporate.
messenger13 is offline  
post #7 of 22 Old Aug 30th, 2007, 8:56 am Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 71
Actually, according to the Motorad website, the dry wet of the GT is 44 pounds more than the dry weight of the RT.

A new dealership recently opened in St. Louis - Gateway BMW - and I believe that they are having an open house in a couple of weeks. I will try to get a test ride on the GT then.

The info re: tight corner riding is good to be reminded of. The RT was definitely fun at Track Day!
Nodakgus is offline  
post #8 of 22 Old Aug 30th, 2007, 3:10 pm
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodakgus
Actually, according to the Motorad website, the dry wet of the GT is 44 pounds more than the dry weight of the RT.
But correct me if I'm wrong...I believe they weigh the RT without bags, and the GT with the bags. Strange, I know. Let me know if you find different information.
messenger13 is offline  
post #9 of 22 Old Aug 30th, 2007, 4:17 pm
Senior Member
 
eng943's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: , ,
Posts: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
The RT is some 25 to 30 pounds lighter. "Notably" lighter? I don't think so... Are you sure you're not referring to the older GT?

We'll see if your tune changes once you put some real miles on a GT. I know one thing, I sure would love to run with you awhile on your RT. I think some of your myths would soon evaporate.
Bare something in mind. These are my impressions of both bikes. The RT is notably lighter ( at least 44lbs is notable to me), and feels even lighter than a direct comparison of dry weights would logically have you believe. Why?...the center of gravity is lower on an RT and makes the bike easier to to handle on tight roads. This was the first thing I noticed about the GT, was how much more work it was to "flick" into corners.

I think you took my opinons personally, and that's the rub. I will tell you with absolute certainty I can ride my RT harder in the twisties than I can a GT. I prefer a lighter bike, because I enjoy a bike that is nimble through tight corners. My opinion, and a good many others I'll add, is that the RT does that better than the GT.

As to which bike is better through the corners if we were to ride together has much less to do with the bikes and is actually more indicative of our riding skills. No doubt a GT is faster, but in tight canyon roads where you can't let the big four breathe, the lighter RT is the ticket, at least for me.

I really like the GT, and will no doubt pull the trigger on one when I am tired of my 06 RT. However, nobody will ever convince me that a heavier bike with a higher center of gravity and longer wheelbase is a better handling bike.
eng943 is offline  
post #10 of 22 Old Aug 30th, 2007, 5:44 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Lehigh Acres (Ft Myers), FL, USA
Posts: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodakgus
I have had my 1200RT about 8 months. I have been experiencing increasing levels of "buyer's remorse" wondering why I did not purchase the 1200GT.

I am interested in opinons from any GT riders who moved from a 1200RT to the GT. I am very performance-minded in my riding and it is from that perspective from which I have been beating myself up wondering if I bought the wrong bike [for me that it is. I have nothing negative to say about the RT].

Thanks,

P.S. Note that my avatar is a pic from a Track Day at Gateway Int'l Raceway in the greater St. Louis area. I am on my RT. I would love to run a GT out there!
If you're interested in performance first, while still having a strong touring bike, there's really no contest between the RT and the GT. My wife owns an RT. She had an '06 RT which she traded for an '06 GT, because she like the incredible performance of my GT, but found that it was a bit to much for her, so went back to an '07 RT.

The RT feels more nimble, largely due to the extra leverage from the wider handlebars, plus the difference in the front end geometry of the two bikes. The GT requires a bit more "stability" in its front end setup, due to its extra speed potential. This is really noticeable when getting off of one bike and getting on the other, but don't let anyone kid you about the GT not being flick-able. You have to lean it over a LONG ways to drag parts, but its still pretty easy to do. At extreme lean angles, the RT would have a slight edge, due to loading its tires a bit less (less weight), but only the tightest of tracks would give any LAP advantage to the RT.

I can't imagine any road or track, except maybe a go-cart track, being tight enough to give the RT any edge over the GT. Given a straight section of even half a city block, the GT is going to leave the RT for dead, assuming equally capable riders. I really like the RT, and in some ways its a better bike for road use than the GT, but when talking about performance, the GT gets serious fast VERY quickly.

I will say that riding a GT takes more self control, (skill?) than the RT, as it has WAY more power most of the time that can be safely used, especially on the street.

I quit riding sport bikes back in the mid to late 1980's when they got so track focused, and so fast. I discovered that somewhere around one hundred horsepower at the rear wheel is all that I feel comfortable with. For that reason, I'm hyper alert every time that I ride my GT, and still wonder if someday it'll get the best of me (but then, I'm an old fart!).

Take a LONG ride on a GT, then you'll know for sure if its for you. A ten minute ride, or even half an hour isn't going to cut it. You'll either love it or hate it, very few fall in between.

Ruben

2012 K1600 GTL
2007 R1200GS Adventure
Ruben is offline  
post #11 of 22 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 8:26 am
Senior Member
 
eng943's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: , ,
Posts: 214
I would add one more little caveot, and that is the RT is just a chore to clean, and keep looking new. Not to mention having to constantly polish the headers to avoid the browning effect.

This might not be very significant to you, but I really don't enjoy putting more time than necessary into cleaning a bike, and I am not like-minded with the concept of not caring for my bike, so from this standpoint a GT has some appeal over my RT as well.

Funny this subject came up. My dealer has an 07 blue GT with ESA, Cruise, and heat that he will let go for $18,600. It lists for $20,560. I may go ahead and take it off his hands today, and try a GT.

I had a great year with the RT, but like you this notion of a GT has been in the back of my mind since I bought the RT. If the boxer were a little smoother at a sustained 85-90, I doubt I would ever entertain a GT. However, cranking out interstate without being bothered by vibration is a lingering issue.

I really hate these left brain vs. right brain debates.
eng943 is offline  
post #12 of 22 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 9:11 am
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by eng943
I would add one more little caveot, and that is the RT is just a chore to clean, and keep looking new. Not to mention having to constantly polish the headers to avoid the browning effect.

This might not be very significant to you, but I really don't enjoy putting more time than necessary into cleaning a bike, and I am not like-minded with the concept of not caring for my bike, so from this standpoint a GT has some appeal over my RT as well.

Funny this subject came up. My dealer has an 07 blue GT with ESA, Cruise, and heat that he will let go for $18,600. It lists for $20,560. I may go ahead and take it off his hands today, and try a GT.

I had a great year with the RT, but like you this notion of a GT has been in the back of my mind since I bought the RT. If the boxer were a little smoother at a sustained 85-90, I doubt I would ever entertain a GT. However, cranking out interstate without being bothered by vibration is a lingering issue.

I really hate these left brain vs. right brain debates.
Once you go GT;
There ain't no going back!!!
idahogt is offline  
post #13 of 22 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 9:34 am
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by idahogt
Once you go GT;
There ain't no going back!!!
AMEN!

And I still contend that the GT is NOT 44 pounds heavier. They weigh the RT without saddlebags! But they weigh the GT with the saddlebags. Maybe they're also admitting that the GT is the better touring weapon.


Please don't take my posts as me "getting personal". I really don't give two hoots what y'all ride. The RT is a great bike. If you like it, great! Ride the snot out of it. I'm just trying to have a little fun here. Lighten folks.
messenger13 is offline  
post #14 of 22 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 10:38 am
Senior Member
 
cccpastorjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cornelius, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 1,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by eng943
I would add one more little caveot, and that is the RT is just a chore to clean, and keep looking new. Not to mention having to constantly polish the headers to avoid the browning effect.

This might not be very significant to you, but I really don't enjoy putting more time than necessary into cleaning a bike, and I am not like-minded with the concept of not caring for my bike, so from this standpoint a GT has some appeal over my RT as well.

Funny this subject came up. My dealer has an 07 blue GT with ESA, Cruise, and heat that he will let go for $18,600. It lists for $20,560. I may go ahead and take it off his hands today, and try a GT.

I had a great year with the RT, but like you this notion of a GT has been in the back of my mind since I bought the RT. If the boxer were a little smoother at a sustained 85-90, I doubt I would ever entertain a GT. However, cranking out interstate without being bothered by vibration is a lingering issue.

I really hate these left brain vs. right brain debates.

Frankly, I believe the engine on my GT is smoother than the engine on my LT. Not the ride...but the ENGINE. Without question...it is smoother.

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
Too many others to list...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cccpastorjack is offline  
post #15 of 22 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 11:09 pm
IBR# 366
 
meese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 16,427
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Frankly, I believe the engine on my GT is smoother than the engine on my LT. Not the ride...but the ENGINE. Without question...it is smoother.
I'm not so sure of that, at least with my bikes. I noticed a definite tingle in the GT grips at certain speeds, enough to cause a slight numbness in the hands. This seems to have smoothed out as the bike broke in over the first 20K miles, but it was bad enough that I started looking for larger bar end weights. Dayle also notices an annoying buzzing at freeway speeds, but I guess I've gotten used to it.

I still wonder if it's possible to adjust and optimize the counter
balancers like on the old Concours bikes.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
meese is offline  
post #16 of 22 Old Sep 2nd, 2007, 8:21 pm
Senior Member
 
cccpastorjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cornelius, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 1,986
Very interesting. No buzz on mine and my right hand has real problems with nerve damage from riding so many years. I did, however, modify my GT grips, just as I had done on my LT. I took Wilson Cushion Pro tennis racket grip wrap and put one wrap around the grips. Man oh man, does that make a difference. I mean, it REALLY works wonders.

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
Too many others to list...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cccpastorjack is offline  
post #17 of 22 Old Oct 30th, 2007, 3:30 pm
Senior Member
 
Xavier6162's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Corona, California, US of Mexico
Posts: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodakgus
I have had my 1200RT about 8 months. I have been experiencing increasing levels of "buyer's remorse" wondering why I did not purchase the 1200GT.

I am interested in opinons from any GT riders who moved from a 1200RT to the GT. I am very performance-minded in my riding and it is from that perspective from which I have been beating myself up wondering if I bought the wrong bike [for me that it is. I have nothing negative to say about the RT].

Thanks,

P.S. Note that my avatar is a pic from a Track Day at Gateway Int'l Raceway in the greater St. Louis area. I am on my RT. I would love to run a GT out there!
How many other times have you been in this same situation under different circumstances or have saw someone else do so. We can all raise our hands at that. And how many times when or if you made the decision to switch that you’ve found that your first choice was the right one? Well stick to your first choice. That way you want have to come back to these RT VS GT type threads looking for affirmation for your decision.

I don’t think either the RT or GT or good track bikes. There’d be times you’d wish for more power with the RT. They’d be times you’d wish for less weight and tighter turning with the GT. What you don’t want to do is end up of like a couple of friends of mind that’ve drop thousands on their 350+ horsepower track cars just to find a magical advantage to keep up with, or get around those cheap 100HP Spec Miatas…. who actually appear to be smirking and having more fun then the rest of the fleet.

Ride your RT the way you initially intended. As far as those times you’d wish for a better track bike, just take the differences between GT and RT and buy something like an SV650. One hell of a cheap super fun and impressive track machine. You’d certainly be having more fun than most whiles smirking across the line within a mix of those high reving supersports .

Think about it…..

What do you get when you highside an SV650 on the track?
You get up and get back in the race.

What do you get when you highside an RT/GT?
An EBay account and a new BMW.


But you should find a way to run a GT on the track before making a leap that you might regret. I've seen GTs at a track event (I didn't care to be there...I hate track events). The riders didn't do well nor did they appear to be enjoyiong the experience. Lighter bikes with far less HP were running them down with ease. Did I say I hate track events....car or motorcycles. Love and support my friends though. Otherwise I’d rather pierce my gonads with stainless steel ring bolts and tie the ends off to a full grown mountain gorilla.

Strange….the GT does make my hands go dead numb too. And I thought it was just the bike I rode. Things that make you go hmmm. Now that's something to make a mental note of.
Xavier6162 is offline  
post #18 of 22 Old Oct 30th, 2007, 3:41 pm Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 71
Go GT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier6162
How many other times have you been in this same situation under different circumstances or have saw someone else do so. We can all raise our hands at that. And how many times when or if you made the decision to switch that you’ve found that your first choice was the right one? Well stick to your first choice. That way you want have to come back to these RT VS GT type threads looking for affirmation for your decision.

Ride your RT the way you initially intended. As far as those times you’d wish for a better track bike, just take the differences between GT and RT and buy something like an SV650. One hell of a cheap super fun and impressive track machine. You’d certainly be having more fun than most whiles smirking across the line within a mix of those high reving supersports .

Strange….the GT does make my hands go dead numb too. And I thought it was just the bike I rode. Things that make you go hmmm. Now that's something to make a mental note of.
I traded for a 2007 GT a little over 5 weeks ago and have logged about 1,000 miles thus far. Track Day is only a once-per-year deal for me. I look forward to having this GT at the next Track Day event that I attend!

Bottom line: I could not be more happier that I made this trade. Within the first month of buying the RT I had buyer's remorse thinking that I should have acquired the GT. I gave it about 6 months and even then I realized that I will not be satisfied until I trade out.

I find the GT much easier to navigate at every point - parking lot manuevers included. It is quicker and easier (for me) to flick and steer through twisty roads. The acceleration is awesome and more than enough for me (I am a rather conservative person - who happens to like fast cars and fast bikes).

Comfort and wind protection may not be as good as the RT but I have yet to complete all of my ergo changes too.
Nodakgus is offline  
post #19 of 22 Old Oct 31st, 2007, 9:54 am
Senior Member
 
Xavier6162's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Corona, California, US of Mexico
Posts: 223
I know how you feel. I bought an automatic with a super smooth Continuously Variable Transmission (Burgman 650), and had remorse after two days. Sold it 2 months and 2,000 miles later for a motorcycle with a clutch. I’m ecstatic with what I have now, but I do missed that 55-liters of under-seat storage space.
Xavier6162 is offline  
post #20 of 22 Old Nov 1st, 2007, 9:42 am
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 27
Most comments so far agree with my own experience. I happen to now have both an 07 GT and RT in the garage (wife just traded for the RT). The RT is less work to ride and feels more nimble. The GT will burn donuts around it in an acceleration contest.

Never mind the exact weight or spec sheet comparo. Try them both on test rides that represent your usual riding habits and get the one you like best.
thomas_l is offline  
post #21 of 22 Old Nov 1st, 2007, 10:24 am
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 81
I currently own an '05 RT with 40k miles. I previously owned an '03 KRS and then an '04 KLT. One thing I disliked about either, was engine heat. I don't even notice engine heat with the RT, and that is why I will not own another BMW water cooled bike.
gkgeiger is offline  
post #22 of 22 Old Nov 1st, 2007, 10:41 am
Senior Member
 
tmgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NE Georgia, GA., USA
Posts: 5,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodakgus
I have had my 1200RT about 8 months. I have been experiencing increasing levels of "buyer's remorse" wondering why I did not purchase the 1200GT.

I am interested in opinons from any GT riders who moved from a 1200RT to the GT. I am very performance-minded in my riding and it is from that perspective from which I have been beating myself up wondering if I bought the wrong bike [for me that it is. I have nothing negative to say about the RT].

Thanks,

P.S. Note that my avatar is a pic from a Track Day at Gateway Int'l Raceway in the greater St. Louis area. I am on my RT. I would love to run a GT out there!

Well i get to ride these bikes often, i do not own a GT or a RT but we do have a R1200GS and R1200GSA

I have seen a K12GT not be able to outrun the R12GS in curves, of which both riders were good, it will however out run the R12 platform power wise.

handling is very good on both the R12 and K12 platforms, I feel the R12RT is lighter and feels more nimble.

all it boils down to is your preference and riding style, want a sport bike for the track , than buy the K1200S....

Tom

Tom

'07 GS Adv (mine), '06 GS <(My brides)
(the only bmw's in the stable)
tmgs is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HID low beam conversion 1200RT jackson RT Series 1 Nov 2nd, 2007 1:24 am
Stock Seat needed 2006 1200RT PitPat RT Series 0 Jul 26th, 2007 12:56 am
Anyone with Remus can on 1200RT? westernrider RT Series 6 Feb 16th, 2007 5:03 pm
1200RT - Does the engine smooth out? tbarstow RT Series 11 Jan 28th, 2007 8:13 am
Road King & 1200RT Contrasted Nodakgus RT Series 15 Jan 2nd, 2007 5:27 pm

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome