BMW Luxury Touring Community

BMW Luxury Touring Community (https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/)
-   K1200/1300GT (The Next Generation) (https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200-1300gt-next-generation/)
-   -   New GT vs LT Survey/Poll (https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200-1300gt-next-generation/18827-new-gt-vs-lt-survey-poll.html)

jpalamaro Jan 26th, 2007 10:50 am

New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
K1200LT vs K1200GT Survey/Poll

zippy_gg Jan 26th, 2007 12:34 pm

I want to try the GT with my SO in the back to evaluate the possibility of replacing my LT, but that is not an option in your poll...

jpalamaro Jan 26th, 2007 12:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy_gg
I want to try the GT with my SO in the back to evaluate the possibility of replacing my LT, but that is not an option in your poll...

You are right and that's why Zogby and Gallup get the big bucks. But, you can vote later.http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

jpalamaro Jan 26th, 2007 12:44 pm

This data was/is of interest to me as I personally (IMO) think that LT riders are the GT's largest source of customers and/or represent the greatest potential.

This is an opinion, not a statement of fact.

eljeffe Jan 26th, 2007 3:58 pm

Gilles/John,

I added that last option to handle the case where you are considering a GT, but haven't purchased one yet.

zippy_gg Jan 26th, 2007 4:19 pm

Thanks Jeffe! I just voted!;)

jpalamaro Jan 26th, 2007 4:33 pm

Thank Jeff, I didn't get there in time to do the edit! Zogby and Gallup thank you also!

meese Jan 27th, 2007 2:25 pm

Gilles, when I get mine sorted for two-up touring you and Kathy can try it out. :)

RLM Mar 29th, 2007 2:18 pm

LT vs GT
 
The biggest issue I have is wind noise. On my LT I am very well protected from the elements, especially in the cold, 25 degrees or lower. I have only tidden a GT on a 5 mile test ride. I love the GT's engine and handling but how is it for a 500 to 600 mile day ride.
Thanks in advance for the info.
Rich

meese Mar 30th, 2007 7:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLM
The biggest issue I have is wind noise . . . how is it for a 500 to 600 mile day ride.

I picked up my GT on Tuesday, and by Friday I had 1,250 miles on it ranging from 68 degrees and sunny to 24 degrees and watching for ice. In typical BMW style, the stock windshield sucks. I told the dealer "don't even mount it, just leave it in the wrapping" and brought a Cee Bailey windshield with when I picked up the bike. I ran a Cee Bailey on my LT for years and it also made a huge improvement there.

Having said that, The GT is a skinnier bike. You will get more wind on your arms and around the sides. But that power band sure makes up for a lot of the little things. ;)

grifscoots Mar 30th, 2007 7:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meese
I picked up my GT on Tuesday, and by Friday I had 1,250 miles on it ranging from 68 degrees and sunny to 24 degrees and watching for ice. In typical BMW style, the stock windshield sucks. I told the dealer "don't even mount it, just leave it in the wrapping" and brought a Cee Bailey windshield with when I picked up the bike. I ran a Cee Bailey on my LT for years and it also made a huge improvement there.

Having said that, The GT is a skinnier bike. You will get more wind on your arms and around the sides. But that power band sure makes up for a lot of the little things. ;)

You have a beeg 10-4 from over here.



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ibbones Mar 30th, 2007 8:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grifscoots
You have a beeg 10-4 from over here.

No, don't hold back, tell us what you really think!!

belsps May 22nd, 2007 12:06 pm

I traded my LT 2006 last october,and bought the new GT not sorry for the move but
the stock windshield really sucks! and I don't like the wind I get on my arms but apart this, the GT is a great bike and a real pleasure to handle.
I'll probably opt for the CB windshield maybe it will cure the wind problem.

RMoore007 May 22nd, 2007 5:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by belsps
I traded my LT 2006 last october,and bought the new GT not sorry for the move but
the stock windshield really sucks! and I don't like the wind I get on my arms but apart this, the GT is a great bike and a real pleasure to handle.
I'll probably opt for the CB windshield maybe it will cure the wind problem.

My +4+2 CB screen is about 80-90% better than the stock tall shield but I here the +4+3 CB screen is even better on the arms. I believe Joe has the latter and really likes it. hth:)

messenger13 May 22nd, 2007 5:20 pm

I like my +4+3 . . . sure. But the arms still get wet in a downpour. No big deal with the right gear though. And everyone is wearing good gear, aren't they?!?! :D

belsps May 25th, 2007 2:00 am

Well I guess driving a bike does have its inconvenience when its raining but what a heck thats also part of the fun isn't.
Well it seems that the +4+3 will do the trick.
Thanks for the tip.

Colyn Dec 8th, 2007 4:49 am

I have a twopart question about the new GT ... I own a 2005 LT and a 2005 GT ... did 30,000 kms on each of them.

On the GT I installed the Urban Barbacks and that cured my one and only gripe about the 05 GT.

I have taken the new GT out on demo runs three times now. Apart from that vibration at around 7,000 rpm the bike is good and I like the response and the handling is great here in the mountains.

Now for my problem ... the footpegs are quite high and that means my knees need to bend quite a lot more than on the LT and the old GT. Now I am 55 years old and 5'11" and weighs 106kg ... purely from a reality point of view it is not good to sit with bent knees for long periods of time because Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT) is a damn good possibility at my age. I had a good look at the peg mounting and it is not like on the opld GT where the PEG and Brakes/Gearshift clusters are mounted on a plate and allows for customisation. The new GT these mountings are part of the frame.

1. Has anybody else experienced the peg height as an issue ?
2. Is there anything available to fix it ?

My typical riding would consist of 6 to 10 days of around 1,000 kms per day. That means at least 10 hours in the saddle every day.

XMagnaRider Dec 8th, 2007 8:17 am

Another option not included:
I tried both the LT and the GT, and bought a GT. The LT is a very good motorcycle, but I prefer the GT.

To answer Colyn's questions:
1. Before I bought the GT, I thought that it would need the pegs lowered, based on the riding position of my previous motorcycle (1986 Honda Magna). After riding the GT for five months, I have decided that I am happy with the factory peg position. Your concerns about DVT are valid, but aren't they true for any riding position as well as airplane and car seats, too? Isn't the best solution to take a break, walk around, and stretch your legs from time to time?

2. There are peg lowering kits for the GT. Here is one example from Pirate's Lair: http://piratesk12site.net/PegGTlow.htm

They also have peg lowering kits for the passenger seat, and a shift-lever extension, should you need it.

Colyn Dec 8th, 2007 10:00 am

Thank you XmagnaRider ... I have bought Urban Barbacks from Pirates Lair previously so I know they do deliver here in South Africa.

meese Dec 8th, 2007 3:18 pm

I also bought a set of the peg extenders for the GT. They actually give more leg room than on a stock LT. I've since pulled them off, but I did like them for extended trips. If someone's interested in trying them, I can make you a good deal. :)

Bruce_Yates Jan 17th, 2008 3:29 pm

What about highway pegs for the GT? Is there anything akin to J-pegs or Ottomans? Any links/photos?

cccpastorjack Jan 17th, 2008 6:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce_Yates
What about highway pegs for the GT? Is there anything akin to J-pegs or Ottomans? Any links/photos?



Surely you jest???? While we're at it, let's just install some pull-backs and a sissy bar! :D

Just joking, but the GT's nature IS a sport-tourer!

Bruce_Yates Jan 17th, 2008 8:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Surely you jest???? While we're at it, let's just install some pull-backs and a sissy bar! :D

Just joking, but the GT's nature IS a sport-tourer!

I realize that. I've actually ridden my LT (not to mention my Aprilia) with sport bikes in twisties and kept up with or beaten most of them (throwing peg sparks all the way), so I appreciate the "sport" in sport-tourer. But on long stretches of slab I like to be able to stretch my legs out. Having had DVT (deep vein thrombosis) in one of my legs, I prefer to err on the side of caution (and comfort)...

messenger13 Jan 17th, 2008 9:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce_Yates
I realize that. I've actually ridden my LT with sport bikes in twisties and kept up with or beaten most of them (throwing peg sparks all the way), so I appreciate the "sport" in sport-tourer. But on long stretches of slab I like to be able to stretch my legs out. Having had DVT (deep vein thrombosis) in one of my legs, I prefer to err on the side of caution (and comfort)...

I've yet to have an LT be able to keep up with me on my GT. And I've ridden with some FAST LT riders. Need I name names? If a sportbike rider can't keep up with an LT, than that rider is a poser. Come on down to Cambria Bruce, and prove me wrong. :) And I'm riding just a lame ol' sport-tourer.

As for highway pegs on the new GT . . . well . . . rumor had it that one guy was designing a set. But than a bunch of us GT owners got together and snuffed him out! I hear tale now that he's making parts for the FJR these days. :D

As for your DVT...all joking aside I'm sorry to hear about that. I pray that never happens to me.

grifscoots Jan 17th, 2008 9:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce_Yates
I realize that. I've actually ridden my LT (not to mention my Aprilia) with sport bikes in twisties and kept up with or beaten most of them (throwing peg sparks all the way), so I appreciate the "sport" in sport-tourer. But on long stretches of slab I like to be able to stretch my legs out. Having had DVT (deep vein thrombosis) in one of my legs, I prefer to err on the side of caution (and comfort)...

Hey Bruce, contact Ken Meese. He has an idear....



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meese Jan 17th, 2008 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Just joking, but the GT's nature IS a sport-tourer!

All depends on your definition of sport-touring. Sometimes, the best roads just happen to be a state or two away. :D

meese Jan 17th, 2008 11:12 pm

Hey Bruce, good to hear from you again. :)

Pay no attention to the SPORT-touring crowd. If they really wanted to SPORT tour, they'd have bought a K1200S. Or a Hayabusa with soft saddlebags. :D

No highway pegs for the GT yet. I found some likely mounting points, but haven't had time to do the metalwork yet. With 34K on my '07, I'm too busy riding to be working on it. :D

Also, I have a bunch of guys lining up for when I start making more light brackets, so I guess I gotta get busy.

As for your other ergonomic questions, the GT can be made just as sit-up comfortable as the LT. The Suburban Machinery Bar Backs add an inch rearward and 3/4" height. And the Verholen peg extenders with the seat in the high position actually gives slightly more leg room than the LT, though at the cost of some reduced lean angle.

Wish I had time to head up your way and let you check out my K1200RT. :D

messenger13 Jan 18th, 2008 7:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meese
All depends on your definition of sport-touring. Sometimes, the best roads just happen to be a state or two away. :D

I don't understand why one needs highway pegs to get to a road that's a state or two away. If that's true, then I'm totally screwed! I better sell this puppie and get a Wing quick!

meese Jan 18th, 2008 10:17 am

If your setup works for your riding style, that's cool. But everyone's different, and has different needs and expectations.

I'm not suggesting that BMW include highway pegs from the factory, or that everyone must install them and use them. Nor am I suggesting that we all must ride the bike pure and unadulterated, as the Fatherland Engineers intended.

We all have choices here, whether it's who to vote for, what to believe in, or what to ride. That's the beauty of a free society. So offering your own opinions or experiences up to those who ask is part of free speech. But forcing your own definitions on others, or telling them that their choices are wrong or just plain stupid is, well, just plain stupid. :)

So I'll be glad to ride with you on whatever road we happen to meet on. You may get there 0.2 of a second ahead of me, or I may get there ahead of you. But I guarantee I'll be having as much fun as you are, which is all that really matters.

SoberBiker May 5th, 2008 7:09 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jpalamaro
K1200LT vs K1200GT Survey/Poll

Well...I have tried to get around the issuses I have with the GT (ergonomics) for a year, but no matter what I do to try and alleviate the pain this bike gives my shoulder, I am going to have to give it up. I am going in Weds to get the BBS situation looked at and going to talk trade back to the LT.

Stixx Aug 5th, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
When I feel the need for highway pegs I just prop my feet up on the jugs and give em a rest. Not much good in summer but it's great in the winter. LOL :histerica

bonafidebob Aug 5th, 2008 4:49 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I guess this is a LT-heavy site, but I still think you need a "looked at the LT but got a GT instead" category... I've done luxury touring on my GT from the start. :)

Steve_R Aug 5th, 2008 5:15 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bonafidebob
I guess this is a LT-heavy site, but I still think you need a "looked at the LT but got a GT instead" category... I've done luxury touring on my GT from the start. :)

Actually this is a BMW heavy site, else you wouldn't have a forum just for the GT. JMNSHO. :D

CyberAngel Sep 15th, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Hayabusa => K1300GT
why? 945W alternator power for warm suite power (2 persons)

B737-700 Oct 4th, 2008 9:50 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I purchased a 2008 GT late August and sold my 2005 LT today, October 04, 2008. Fortunately my LT has been purchased by an acquaintance who is very excited about his "new" LT. I shall miss the LT as it is, in my opinion, the prettiest motorcycle, bar none, and as a highway cruiser it can not be faulted.

Why did I abandon the LT in favour of the GT. I found the LT just too much motorcycle for me. I found it difficult to handle at slow speeds and in tight quarters. Simply put, the LT controlled me, as opposed to me controlling it. I am, on the other hand, not intimidated by the GT.

Both the LT and GT certainly qualify as touring bikes but that is where similarities end. It is a bit like comparing a Bentley and a Ferrari as touring cars. Both can be driven all day but the driving experience is quite different. The LT, with all it's creature comforts, leaves one very relaxed at the end of a long highway trip. The GT, on the other hand, provides a day-long adrenalin rush and sometimes leaves one a little on edge as the sun sets. The GT is much better suited for those hairpin mountain roads as it literally seems to instinctively know when it is time to lean into the corners. The LT on the other hand needs to be sometimes pushed through the curves.

I do miss the LT entertainment system and it's superb fairing design, that keeps one drier and more comfortable in inclement weather. Also, I really miss the hydraulic centre stand. My wife especially misses the riding comfort afforded to the rear passenger.

I guess if I could have afforded to keep both bikes, I would have done so.

fields Dec 3rd, 2008 9:32 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
New to the forum. Bought a used 06 K1200LT in U.S. April 2008. Just sold it and made a couple grand profit. Now deciding on a 09 GT or RT. Sold the LT cause Im 42 yrs old, didnt have a bike for 22 years, and didn't consider it being too conservative. LT was a dream and for me easy to handle. Never dropped it - surprised?

Question - GT 4 cyl likely more smooth than RT boxer. RT likely better wind protection than GT. GT sexier than RT. RT probably more comfortable for back seater than GT(more stop and go romps in the grass?) GT costs more than RT. Deprectiation probably a non-issue.

All these and more considered, does the GT cause more fatigue than it's worth for the extra dough? I ride causally around the area and a few road trips, up to 500 to 700 Ontario Canada miles per month. This will be an expensive 5 - 10 year bike for me. BMW has me hooked on engineering (dont tell me about the bad stuff - read all about it)

Can one of you :bmw: enlighten me if the GT will be worth the extra investment of the two?

XMagnaRider Dec 3rd, 2008 10:28 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fields
New to the forum. Bought a used 06 K1200LT in U.S. April 2008. Just sold it and made a couple grand profit. Now deciding on a 09 GT or RT. Sold the LT cause Im 42 yrs old, didnt have a bike for 22 years, and didn't consider it being too conservative. LT was a dream and for me easy to handle. Never dropped it - surprised?

Question - GT 4 cyl likely more smooth than RT boxer. RT likely better wind protection than GT. GT sexier than RT. RT probably more comfortable for back seater than GT(more stop and go romps in the grass?) GT costs more than RT. Deprectiation probably a non-issue.

All these and more considered, does the GT cause more fatigue than it's worth for the extra dough? I ride causally around the area and a few road trips, up to 500 to 700 Ontario Canada miles per month. This will be an expensive 5 - 10 year bike for me. BMW has me hooked on engineering (dont tell me about the bad stuff - read all about it)

Can one of you :bmw: enlighten me if the GT will be worth the extra investment of the two?

This is a personal decision for you. You seem to know all the pros and cons. I bought a GT over the RT, and I am happy that I did. There are several GT vs. RT threads here, www.k-bikes.com, and at www.i-bmw.com. You may want to read them.

The best thing to do is try them both and then decide. If you can test ride or rent each one for a day or two, that would be even better than short test rides from the dealer. The cost of a few days of bike rentals pales in comparison to the cost of a new GT or RT.

bonafidebob Dec 3rd, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fields
Can one of you :bmw: enlighten me if the GT will be worth the extra investment of the two?

I think so. I'm also 42, and came from another big sport-touring bike (Kawasaki GPZ1100). While the riding position is less 'sport' than the GPZ, the power and smoothness of the KGT can't be beat, and really in every important respect (acceleration, braking, turning, comfort) the KGT blows the GPZ away. I've done some touring on the R bikes too (rented one for 3 weeks in NZ), and it was a fine comfortable tourer, but it really doesn't compete with the KGT for 'sport'. Rawr!

roadcrave Dec 21st, 2008 9:55 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I rode a GT 2007 for 10hrs, had to drop the handlebars all the way down, to me the GT seemed top heavy, I really like my LT and would not ever get rid of it, My personal take on this topic is if I want to go for a more sporty ride, the k1200s or the new k1300s would be my take, rode one in Europe for a week fell in love with it, for our Local club rides,m,, Im getting a k1300s ...

seniorasi Mar 3rd, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I'm 55 and have been out of bikes for twenty five years. ( run over 3 times...raise the kids or ride 'til I die? Easy choice) The kids are grown and I'm ready to get back into it. Where do I rent a GT,RT, And an LT? I've stopped at my local BMW, Yamaha, Suzuki, Arctic Cat dealer who said he wasn't interested in even letting me do a test hop. (In Memphis,TN) If that's the case I'll go elsewhere to buy. But to actually put 500-1,000 miles on one before buying would truly be an enlightening and valuable experience.

dave178 Mar 11th, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I have an 05 RT - love the bike and hav it all tricked out for hiway travel. I really like the bike. I had the oppurtunity to ride the K12GT around a bit. I found that handling was much like my RT, but with roll on power much more like my sport bike - a nice comination. I think only money and the time to reset up a new bike keep me from making the switch. I am an ex Goldwing jockey, and the extra gound clearance would ever keep me from buying any other luxo-tourer. But I'm still drouling and looking at the KGT!

BMWrdr Aug 28th, 2009 4:27 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I have a 07 GT and it has been a great bike with plenty of raw power. However, I purchased a 04 LT for half the price for sheer comfort. I will sell the GT!
Instead of having 2 bikes that are somewhat similar, I am opting for a bike thats different!

free2ride Sep 3rd, 2009 4:14 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Traded for an 06 GT and am loving it.

frankrca Aug 28th, 2010 9:46 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I presently have a ZZR120 with the hard bags. I like the power, handling and comfort with the Corbin seat BUT it is uncomfortable with my wife who has a herniated disk. I tried out the 1200 GT and found it better than the ZZR. I am now looking at purchasing a 1200 / 1300 GT or the 1200LT for my sole bike that will accommodate Arlene as well. From your experience which bike would you ride for the two up situation?

chrismaryharris Aug 30th, 2010 2:29 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Hi there,

I have just traded my 2008 LT in for a new 1300GT; we had a weekend in Belgium with our local IAM group and on one of the rides the guy leading went wrong twice, resulting in U-turns in the middle of busy roads, 2-up!!! Convinced us both that we needed to look at a more manoeuverable bike.
When we came back I spent a day riding both the RT and GT, back roads, motorways, in and out of car parks 2-up etc... and in the end we both preferred the GT. I liked the RT very much but the power and smoothness of the GT was what swayed me. Mary also preferred the GT - said it was a more comfortable pillion seat and position (much to my surprise I must admit). She found the seat on the RT too narrow. The one area where the RT was better was in the screen which was much quieter but I have now fitted the V-Stream which I liked on the LT, and it has made a tremendous difference to the GT.

Although still a big bike by most standards, the GT just feels so small and light compared to the LT - really enjoying it and it is so easy to manoeuvre! You will be blown away by the power as well!!! It is not as comfortable as the LT and if 2 up riding is the most important reason for getting the bike the LT may be the one to go for. But Mary is very comfortable on the GT and we have already done a few long days on it.
Also, very pleased with the price! Our BMW dealer offered me more than I was expecting on the LT and we got the 'EE' version of the GT which has everything on it including a colour coded top box for much cheaper than buying all the extras seperately. Colour is superb as well.
You need to ride both to see how it will suit you but I would not go back to the LT again.

Cheers - Chris

judgebill Sep 18th, 2010 9:48 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Interesting fact; on this web site the one bike that consistently gets the most "action", the most attention, the most current comments is the LT. Say what you will about any of the other BMW bikes, the LT is the one which is regularly filled with current comments, up-to-date reports and the most viewing activity. There is a message here, somewhere.

:histerica :histerica :histerica

meese Sep 19th, 2010 12:26 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by judgebill
There is a message here, somewhere.

Yes, and that message is that this site was started as a simple email list about the LT back when the first LT's came out in '99. It has since expanded to cover many other models, as its members have also expanded into other bikes, but it is still primarily about BMW's Luxury Touring models.

And right now, the LT is still their flagship Luxury Tourer, even if it is a bit "dated" by some standards.

Now some folks think that the GTL is BMW's newest flagship bike (fanned by BMW's own marketing, no less). But many of us feel that the GTL is merely the next interpretation of BMW's sport-Touring philosophy, and that a Slant/6-based Luxury Tourer will follow along in short order.

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see . . .

jpalamaro Sep 19th, 2010 8:52 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meese
Yes, and that message is that this site was started as a simple email list about the LT back when the first LT's came out in '99. It has since expanded to cover many other models, as its members have also expanded into other bikes, but it is still primarily about BMW's Luxury Touring models.

And right now, the LT is still their flagship Luxury Tourer, even if it is a bit "dated" by some standards.

Now some folks think that the GTL is BMW's newest flagship bike (fanned by BMW's own marketing, no less). But many of us feel that the GTL is merely the next interpretation of BMW's sport-Touring philosophy, and that a Slant/6-based Luxury Tourer will follow along in short order.

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see . . .

Hi Ken,
Just when I was going to tell Mr.Bill in a a less eloquent statement, DUHHH, it's an LT website, you did it oh so nicely. Well, not sure where you stand on the K16 but considering one very strongly.as it's about the only exciting thing on the horizon. Don't think though it's gonna be a 'couch' like the GW or LT, but sure looks interesting. Betcha comes in over 25K. GROAN

meese Sep 19th, 2010 1:38 pm

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
I'm up for a K16 test ride, that's for sure. And I'll be following all the news and revelations the same as everybody else.

But what's really gonna matter most is how it rides. :bike:

Gianluigi-GTL Apr 11th, 2011 11:18 am

Re: New GT vs LT Survey/Poll
 
Hi Guys,

I sold the LT for a new GTL, but the delivery is delayed, at least here in Italy ... just a question:

how many of you (all around the world) really has his own GT or GTL in the garage ?


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