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post #1 of 25 Old Apr 15th, 2006, 11:46 pm Thread Starter
 
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101 octane

What opinions are there on 101 octane? dosen't the owners manual say at least 93 RON, in Oklahoma 91 is almost all you can find and I really doubt that 91 is really 91 sometimes. Lower fuel economy , slight clatter, all indications of lower grade fuel
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post #2 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 1:01 am
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The label on the lid over the gas cap says 89 octane. I've run 89 and/or 91 in all 3 of my LTs with no problems whatsoever. I've even run 87 on occasion when nothing else was available, still with no issues. Where would you find a regular supply of 101 octane fuel, anyway?

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post #3 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 2:23 am
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Octane

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEPASA
What opinions are there on 101 octane? dosen't the owners manual say at least 93 RON, in Oklahoma 91 is almost all you can find and I really doubt that 91 is really 91 sometimes. Lower fuel economy , slight clatter, all indications of lower grade fuel
I'm under the understanding that the owners manual octane ratings are in European standards. Our Canadian/American gas has a higher ocatane than theirs at the same numbers. Eg: Their rating 93 RON, Our 89/91 is the same (depending on which Oil Co).

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post #4 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 8:23 am
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Octane

I have learned over the years of riding HD's (2 wheel tractors) High test is fine until the weather drops below freezing.
Then it is better to run 87octane, easier starting. (I had a friend explain it once, something about lower ignition point but a less complete burn across the entire face of the cylinder. He might as well been telling me how to do brain surgery)
I have a supply of racing fuel, it is 1 mile to the station that sells it, the drag strip is less than a mile past that.
I'm not sure I would want to run 101 in a Beemer, I burned a hole through the top of a wisco piston, about 12 years ago. I was running flat out, road racing and had the ignition advanced a touch. Best the bike ever ran, just before it blew.
I would worry about a melt down of aluminum parts.
Rock
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post #5 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 10:01 am
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You will find in most engines that using the lowest octane fuel that will not ping (or activate knock sensor on modern engines) will yield the best all round performance.

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post #6 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 11:27 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psayegh
You will find in most engines that using the lowest octane fuel that will not ping (or activate knock sensor on modern engines) will yield the best all round performance.
I've read and found the same to be true. In fact, I can burn the standard ethanol blend and am fine, albeit, I lose a little efficiency since (as I understand it) you don't get the same energy from ethanol blends as you do with non-octane. However, the octane level is 89 vs. 87 so I go with the higher octane ethanol blend. No pinging.

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post #7 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 11:48 am Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
The label on the lid over the gas cap says 89 octane. I've run 89 and/or 91 in all 3 of my LTs with no problems whatsoever. I've even run 87 on occasion when nothing else was available, still with no issues. Where would you find a regular supply of 101 octane fuel, anyway?
There is a Shell station about eight miles from home that sell it at the pump,pricey though. I presume if tank is half full w/ 91 and you top off w/ 101 you then have 96 octane. I am not a chemist . If the motonics read the higher octane they adjust ignition timing accordingly , dosn't it? Again engine sure sounds smoother under load.
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post #8 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 5:18 pm
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Smile Put 89 or 91 in it

You won't be sorry...either will work just fine. Absent that, then tell Michael and Sunny that they owe you a new bike.
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post #9 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 6:18 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEPASA
There is a Shell station about eight miles from home that sell it at the pump,pricey though. I presume if tank is half full w/ 91 and you top off w/ 101 you then have 96 octane. I am not a chemist . If the motonics read the higher octane they adjust ignition timing accordingly , dosn't it? Again engine sure sounds smoother under load.
There is absolutely NO advantage in running higher octane than the engine requires to avoid pre-ignition or detonation. Once that level of octane is reached (manufacturer's stated requirement) nothing is gained, except a thinner wallet, by going higher.

Higher octane levels do not mean "more power", in fact it can actually LOWER performance. Higher octane levels reduce the "ignition RATE", so that pre-ignition and or detonation do not occur.

The Motronic can only sense the Oxygen level of the exhaust (O2 sensor), and it has no idea what you are burning for fuel. We have no knock sensors on the LT engine, as do most cars, so it cannot detect knocking to reduce the ignition timing as Car ECM modules do, so you have to insure that by not running too low an octane level. If you do the "cut the brown wire" to reduce/eliminate hot hesitation should your bike have that problem, then you have to run the premium fuel level of octane. No need to run higher than that in any case though.

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post #10 of 25 Old Apr 16th, 2006, 6:28 pm Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
There is absolutely NO advantage in running higher octane than the engine requires to avoid pre-ignition or detonation. Once that level of octane is reached (manufacturer's stated requirement) nothing is gained, except a thinner wallet, by going higher.

Higher octane levels do not mean "more power", in fact it can actually LOWER performance. Higher octane levels reduce the "ignition RATE", so that pre-ignition and or detonation do not occur.

The Motronic can only sense the Oxygen level of the exhaust (O2 sensor), and it has no idea what you are burning for fuel. We have no knock sensors on the LT engine, as do most cars, so it cannot detect knocking to reduce the ignition timing as Car ECM modules do, so you have to insure that by not running to low an octane level. If you do the "cut the brown wire" to reduce/eliminate hot hesitation should your bike have that problem, then you have to run the premium fuel level of octane. No need to run higher than that in any case though.
Thanks much for that clarification,appreciated.
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post #11 of 25 Old Apr 17th, 2006, 8:36 am
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If you regularly scan the History channel, you will come across a series on Oil production in the USA. Part of that will cover when the octane rating was developed (1930s?), it is arbitrary but consistent, and that higher octane does not give better performance.

I believe part of that series also covers oil pipe lines in the USA, and that companies now put standard petroleum product into the line, and take a standardized product out some where on the line. In essence, unless it is a closed pipe line, they do not take out the petroleum they put it.

Additives, are mixed in before transport to local filling stations.

I can run low test here in the winter, temps rarely below 35F at night.

Once daytime temps hit the 80s, I switch to high test.

It is interesting to see that when oil was first used, in place of whale oil, in oil lamps, gas was a by product that was thrown away.

Bob
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post #12 of 25 Old Apr 18th, 2006, 7:27 am
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The only time high octane is needed if you are running an engine with high compression and boost (a high boost supercharger or high boost turbo).

It burns slower preventing pre ignition, thus, in a regular engine, less power.

101 is usually considered race fuel. Usually contains lead and is not street legal.
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post #13 of 25 Old Apr 18th, 2006, 9:23 am
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The performance myth is the result of the knock sensor in new vehicles. My Miata has a knock sensor and allows me, if I wish to run lower octane fuel. When I run 87 octane the knock sensor identifies lower grade fuel being used and reduces the timing to eliminate the knock, which results in reduced performance. If I run 91 octane the knock sensor will allow the timing to be advanced fully and results in maximum performance. Although I have never put it on a dyno, I believe I can tell a difference when doing WOT passes on the back roads in GA.

The LT has no knock sensor, so running lower than recommended octane may damage the engine. In my Y2K bike I had to run 91 octane, this was the result of the ECU being changed and the dealer recommended 91 octane. I can assure you if I went to WOT with less than 91 it would knock to beat the band. On my 03 I have not cut the brown wire and have the hot weather hesitation, but it runs great on 89 octane.

Jim in GA

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post #14 of 25 Old Apr 18th, 2006, 11:01 am
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I'm not sure about the 101 octane... But.

I try to always fill up at stations that have seperate hoses for the different flavors of octane. (I save the one's in my area as waypoints in my GPS)

I figure I'm putting in about 4 or 5 gallons, and I don't want the first 1 gallon or so to be that 84 - 87 octane crap the car before me filled up with.

I never use less than 93 octane in the bike unless it's not available. The times I have used less, the bike cranks triple the amount of times to start.

Good luck

Jeff Adkins
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post #15 of 25 Old Apr 18th, 2006, 2:03 pm
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Money to burn...........

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post #16 of 25 Old May 6th, 2006, 6:00 pm
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Cool Octane Ratings

Doctor Healey is correct!!

But I wish I had a high boost Turbo Charger and was running 115/145 Octane Avgas.

145 Octane you say??? >> Although the tests to determine the Octane numbers for avgas are different than auto gas I think the results are simular.

So if you put some fuel into your trusty stead and its "Purple" you will not have to worry about knocking and pinging.

You might have to worry about the High Limit Credit Card you will need to carry. I havent seen this fuel for over 25 years and dont even know if it can be purchased in the states. If it is it Wont be CHEAP!!

Later

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post #17 of 25 Old May 6th, 2006, 6:05 pm
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Red face More On Avgas Octane Ratings

This should help with understanding Avgas

Gasoline is a mix of liquid hydrocarbons -- that is, chemical molecules that contain hydrogen and carbon atoms. The simplest such molecules, methane and ethane, have just one or two carbon atoms respectively, and are gases. The two hydrocarbons of most significance for gasoline are heptane, which has seven carbon atoms, and octane, which has eight. Both are liquids at room temperature. "Straight-run" gasoline -- directly as it comes out of a petroleum distillation plant -- consists of 62-64% octane, and the rest heptane. It's said to have an Octane Rating of 62-64.

The octane rating is significant because octane can withstand much higher compression than heptane, and high compression increases power. So to get reasonable power from a lightweight engine for aircraft use, aviation gasolines have an octane rating of 80 or higher.

The octane rating can be increased beyond the simple proportion of octane to heptane by adding anti-knock agents, which delay the onset of detonation. Until recently, the most important such additive, for both automotive and aviation use, was tetra-ethyl lead (TEL). It's found in aviation fuels in the following proportions:


Fuel Grade (Octane Rating) Color TEL per Gallon
80/87 Red 0.5 mL
100LL Blue 1.2 - 2.0 mL
100/130 Green 3.0 - 4.0 mL
115/145 Purple 4.6 mL
Source: "Maintaining and Overhauling Lycoming Engines (2ed) by Joe Christy, 1986, TAB Books, Blue Ridge Summit, Pa.


In the U.S., only the first two grades (80/87 and 100LL) are widely available, though 100/130 remains common overseas. The first grade, 80/87 octane, is basically comparable to pre-1986 "regular" leaded automotive gas, at least as far as TEL content is concerned. Of course, modern auto gas has no TEL; instead a manganese-based antiknock agent is used, along with a sophisticated reforming process to increase the base octane number of the feed stock. (Read more about aviation gasoline and the octane rating system

Any Questions Class

Later

Stevea2980
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post #18 of 25 Old May 6th, 2006, 6:58 pm
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Ron 91, 95, 98

Greetings Gentlemen and Ladies.

A very interesting series of posts here in regard to the octane level of the fuels we use. Here in Australia we have readily available to us in the RON rating, 91, 95 and 98. The 91 is selling for around $1.40/L the 95 at $1.48/L and the 98 $1.56/L or thereabouts. I've been feeding my 1999 LT 95 RON as recommended by the manual, however, from the above posts I'm now rather curious to know how my LT will run on the 91 RON. Does anyone know what I can expect?

Kindest regards to all.

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post #19 of 25 Old May 7th, 2006, 6:37 am
 
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Lots of interesting views and good points, one thing that isn't mentioned is that newer LTs run 10.8:1 compression. This is not trivial and it takes a significant amount of computerized "detuning" to avoid engine knock (pre-ignition) on a warm day when labouring with that compression ratio. The owners manual should be followed, avoid regular grade fuels as much as possible, but I wouldn't get anxious if the odd top up of regular fuel was used.

Neither fuel grade should effect engine starting, up here we see temps hitting -38 degrees and high test is just fine and burns cleaner giving theoretically better mileage, obviously used in cars at that temp. Regular fuel ages poorly in small tanks as the volatile components gas off too quickly, for storage use high test fuel if possible.

my two cents worth...
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post #20 of 25 Old May 7th, 2006, 11:41 am Thread Starter
 
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I visited w/ the head tech @ our BMW dealership about the 101 octane fuel. The 101 is unleaded according to gas station owner, The BMW tech said it will run better, smoother (less hesitation) but not worth the $1.50/ gal difference. I have noticed many times when engine is cold and you start on 91 octane it will fire up and have to be restarted and then all is well except a little slight sputter at idle and the hesitation at pullaways from dead stop. The 101 starts right up w/ no restart issue. No hesitation and noticeable power increase at full throttle. JMHO
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post #21 of 25 Old May 7th, 2006, 12:47 pm
 
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Gas requirement for BMW from BMW is Premium gas.....

That is RON 95, MON 85, added together then divide by 2, or 90 octane..

Thats the requirement right out of the book..............Regards Pete
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post #22 of 25 Old May 7th, 2006, 1:01 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrowbmw
Greetings Gentlemen and Ladies.

A very interesting series of posts here in regard to the octane level of the fuels we use. Here in Australia we have readily available to us in the RON rating, 91, 95 and 98. The 91 is selling for around $1.40/L the 95 at $1.48/L and the 98 $1.56/L or thereabouts. I've been feeding my 1999 LT 95 RON as recommended by the manual, however, from the above posts I'm now rather curious to know how my LT will run on the 91 RON. Does anyone know what I can expect?
I usually use the mid-grade premium, but have had to run 'regular' on occassion when it was all that was available, sometimes for several tankfulls in a row, and noticed no adverse effects.

Motor On ,/'


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post #23 of 25 Old May 7th, 2006, 6:06 pm
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There is NO benefit of running higher octane then what is required to prevent pre-iognition, or pinging. In fact the lower you can run without pinging the better.

And octane has NOTHING to do with easy or hard starting. That is a function of the volatility or vapor pressure of the fuel. Refiners add butane to the gasoline blend in the winter time to increase volatility.

As for ethanol blends, yes, it helps the octane, but ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline, so there is a miles/per gallon cost.
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post #24 of 25 Old May 7th, 2006, 10:03 pm
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Here in Wyoming, at an elevation of over 5K', I run 'regular'. Which here, is 85.

I've tried the more 'spensive stuff for a few tanks fulls, but haven't been able to detect any difference - either performance or milage. Runs great!

Tate

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post #25 of 25 Old Nov 5th, 2006, 5:56 am
 
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When I picked up my 03, LT, the dealer told me to run "mid-grade" which around here is 89. Works fine for me as best I can tell, and if I got any better gas mileage, I'd still be riding my scooter.

One other thing. I'm a "gas jockey" part time at a convience store. I was somewhat surprised to find out there is no "mid-grade" tank. It's just premium (91) and regular (87) mixed at the pump to give you 89. It's logical when you think of it, I had just never thought of it. I would imagine most other stations are the same, so you are getting the same regular gas everyone else is getting, you're just adding some premium in with it.
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