The case for ATGAT - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 11:13 am Thread Starter
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The case for ATGAT

Quite a few guys have given me grief about the riding gear I wear, no matter what the season. I believe in ATGAT.

Yesterday was warm and sunny, bright blue skies. I had spent most of the afternoon circulating through some local canyon twisties. Then on the way home I witnessed a really bad bike vs. car accident. I had a front row seat for the whole thing, it was amazing.

I turned right off of the freeway under a yellow light. Saw a bike in the rear views some distance behind me and closing quickly, he ran the red and also turned right. He closed and passed me as I was at the speed limit, 45, he had to be doing 60 or 70 and was on the gas. About 300 yards down the road at an intersection an elderly driver rolled a stop sign. Yes, monster collision. No way he could have avoided it at his speed. He was pitched over the car and landed some 70 feet away--according to the LEO who was there. The car, looked like it was totaled, all air bags went off, both elderly occupants were injured. The rider was wearing a T shirt, jeans, and sneakers. Both shoes flew off of him both ankles bloody and mangled. His lower back looked like the hamburger display in a grocery store, a miracle, his cut rate, cheesy helmet stayed on his head. I asked one of the para medics what he thought, he answered "various broken bones and possible spinal break." And guess what? A first time motorcycle owner, the bike was a K1600GT. Now trash.

Besides a dumb driver, and an even dumber rider, this whole thing could have been avoided. Had the rider been at the speed limit in ATGAT his injuries might had been a simple walk away. Had the driver been more alert and not rolled the sign----and on, and on, and on. It was an amazing thing to see. Wear your gear and stay safe.

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post #2 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 12:01 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Fate and how the stars align is amazing sometimes. Life is short, ride well.

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post #3 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 12:30 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Hate to hear of any accident, but it sure sounds like a lot of easily avoidable things - minimal protective gear, riding too fast, blowing a red light, maybe too much bike for an inexperienced rider, etc. etc. etc. combined to preordain an unhappy ending.

I too have seen a rider go down and be turned into hamburger. It ain't pretty. I have to admit that occasionally if I'm going to be low-speed, minimal distance (under 10 minutes ride or so, like a quick errand) I will sometimes not put on the armored pants. But armored jacket, helmet, gloves, boots, long pants (even if not always padded) - always. Life's too short as it is.

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post #4 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 12:34 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavynikonf3
Quite a few guys have given me grief about the riding gear I wear, no matter what the season. I believe in ATGAT.

Yesterday was warm and sunny, bright blue skies. I had spent most of the afternoon circulating through some local canyon twisties. Then on the way home I witnessed a really bad bike vs. car accident. I had a front row seat for the whole thing, it was amazing.

I turned right off of the freeway under a yellow light. Saw a bike in the rear views some distance behind me and closing quickly, he ran the red and also turned right. He closed and passed me as I was at the speed limit, 45, he had to be doing 60 or 70 and was on the gas. About 300 yards down the road at an intersection an elderly driver rolled a stop sign. Yes, monster collision. No way he could have avoided it at his speed. He was pitched over the car and landed some 70 feet away--according to the LEO who was there. The car, looked like it was totaled, all air bags went off, both elderly occupants were injured. The rider was wearing a T shirt, jeans, and sneakers. Both shoes flew off of him both ankles bloody and mangled. His lower back looked like the hamburger display in a grocery store, a miracle, his cut rate, cheesy helmet stayed on his head. I asked one of the para medics what he thought, he answered "various broken bones and possible spinal break." And guess what? A first time motorcycle owner, the bike was a K1600GT. Now trash.

Besides a dumb driver, and an even dumber rider, this whole thing could have been avoided. Had the rider been at the speed limit in ATGAT his injuries might had been a simple walk away. Had the driver been more alert and not rolled the sign----and on, and on, and on. It was an amazing thing to see. Wear your gear and stay safe.
One of many indelible memories I have (of riding) was following two guys on a twisty, hilly road. The first guy was fully armored, the second guy blue jeans and a T-shirt. They both hit a patch of gravel on a decreasing-radius, downhill turn and both went down, one after the other. The guy wearing armored clothing got up and spent most of the next ten minutes worrying over scratches and dents on his new Honda ST1100. We had to call 911 for the guy in the T-shirt to get him to the hospital. He had two broken ribs and pretty serious road-rash abrasions on his arms.

My neighbor sustained a broken ankle just putting out of our neighborhood when he lost his footing at a stop sign. He was just riding to the corner store so he decided it would be okay to keep his tennis shoes on, rather than putting on riding boots.

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post #5 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 12:39 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

My 'stitch has some minor battle scars. Those scars serve as a reminder of why I wear it.

For most of my hobbies, I never want to have that feeling that I could have purchased better gear/equipment/etc.
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post #6 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 12:46 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

My policy is simple -- nothing with my DNA will be the first thing to contact the ground.

Since we went to flip-up helmets (about 10 years ago), we haven't had a lost-time, face-only injury -- compared to three or four per year with the 3/4 helmets we used to wear -- or an accident which started with something hitting a rider's face or eyes (bees, gravel, etc).

When Kevlar ballistic body armor hit the market in the mid-1970s, it was adopted under the philosophy of "better hot than shot." However, it soon proved that the vast majority of injuries it prevented were in motor vehicle accidents, and for motorcops especially.

With the development of armor for regular jackets, this benefit has been enjoyed by thousands of riders. Go watch some of the YT videos of that one curve on Mullholland Drive in SoCal, and you see riders coming unassed, bouncing along the ground (or over the guardrail!), then getting up to walk over and look at the motorcycle they'd trashed . . .all thanks to being armored up.

Beats the heck out of leaving a bloody smear on the pavement, or having jagged bone ends waving in the breeze.

When I ride, the only part of my body which isn't armored is my upper legs (between the jacket and the top of my boots). If there were a good option for that, I'd be wearing it.

I keep hoping they'll come up with something like the Guges suit that Deunan Knute wears . . !

Smile! I could be BEHIND you!
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post #7 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 12:54 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

I'm glad I wasn't riding with you... I didn't realize BMW sold bikes to quids who ride that foolishly.

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post #8 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 1:50 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

I came off the G650 a couple of weeks ago. Just turning right at a roundabout, couldn't have been travelling at more than 5mph, and the front tyre just washed out - one second I was riding, the next I was having a Wiesse/tarmac interface

I got up, switched off the bike, lifted it and pushed it to the side, at which point I realised that I really didn't hurt at all - virtually no damage to the bike either. Re-started, got fuel & drove home.

It was only when I got home and looked at my suit that I realised just how protective it is (was) - there's a large tear on the right elbow, and the right knee is scuffed & holed - all the damage is directly over the armour............ I broke no skin - not a scratch!

It turned out that the bike had landed on my right ankle - it was more than a little sore for a few day afterwards, but I hate to think how it would have been if I hadn't been wearing Daytona Roadstars..................

Think I'll just carry on wearing all the gear

Cheers, StClair

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post #9 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 3:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvguy
I'm glad I wasn't riding with you... I didn't realize BMW sold bikes to quids who ride that foolishly.
Coming off 215 from Red Rock, off at Lone Mountain. Was completely avoidable. Sold to who? Red Rock loop, about a year ago. 3 R R's trying to get every last horse power out of them. At the highest point in the loop, just before the parking area, one launched himself into the canyon. Horrible glide ratio, but he was armored and survived.

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post #10 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 4:19 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Oh I am going to hell for this.

For Sale: New K1600GT, Original Owner, light scratches, Never abused. Low Milage (1000 yards), Owner has health issue, Needs to sell fast to pay Bambulance and hospital fees. No actual photos available at the moment but attached similar bike.

Price: $2000 obo, No Low Ballers.


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post #11 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 4:27 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_r6
Oh I am going to hell for this.

For Sale: New K1600GT, Original Owner, light scratches, Never abused. Low Milage (1000 yards), Owner has health issue, Needs to sell fast to pay Bambulance and hospital fees. No actual photos available at the moment but attached similar bike.

Price: $2000 obo, No Low Ballers.
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post #12 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 4:49 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Motorcycles are like hockey skates. Just because you have skates like Sid the Kid doesn't mean you can play hockey with him. Anybody can buy a fast bike. Few know how to ride them well.


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post #13 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 5:00 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Not sure how funny I would find it if I were paralyzed from a motorcycle accident. I doubt there are many of us who haven't ridden a time or two in a manner that others would consider dangerous. Sometimes they're right, but sometimes they're not. Most non-riders think we're being unreasonably foolhardy for ever riding a motorcycle; I've talked to Harley riders that think if you ever get over 70 you're crazy...but I disagree with both of those opinions.

The only truly safe way to ride is to sit on the bike in the garage and make vroom noises...with a helmet of course in case the bike falls off the center stand.

Believe me, I am as guilty as the next guy of thinking "that idiot got what he deserved" from time to time, but I don't think that's a good way to be.

Wear your gear, be safe, and hope you're one of the lucky ones. There was a fatal crash in Austin yesterday in which a car crossed the center line and took out two bikes which were minding their own business riding safely down a perfectly straight four-lane road with a 55 mph speed limit. They were Harleys, and the road is steeply uphill in the direction they were going, so I seriously doubt they were even speeding. The driver of the car "lost control of the vehicle for unknown reasons" according to the police report. I would bet a lot of money there was a cell phone involved.

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post #14 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 5:21 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Sorry but there are so many times in almost every motorcycle forum I am in that we continually tell other riders to wear ATGATT. In times likes these I try to find the a silverlining or a little humor in a, yes, tragic event but time and time again just we continually just about this issue. Adult riders will do what ever they want and irresponsible riders make a conscious decision to take such risk on their own so be it and I have little sympathy for them.

Let me end by quoting an acquaintance's perspective on motorcycle rising and risk management: "A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid situations that require superior skill."

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post #15 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 6:30 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

motorcycling is for everybody, but not everybody is for motorcycling

Great quote! I have already seen the idiots around here.

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post #16 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 6:52 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by StClair

It was only when I got home and looked at my suit that I realised just how protective it is (was) - there's a large tear on the right elbow, and the right knee is scuffed & holed - all the damage is directly over the armour............ I broke no skin - not a scratch!

It turned out that the bike had landed on my right ankle - it was more than a little sore for a few day afterwards, but I hate to think how it would have been if I hadn't been wearing Daytona Roadstars..................

Think I'll just carry on wearing all the gear
What brand of gear were you wearing? I am surprised that the right elbow ripped at only five mph!

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post #17 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 6:59 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Based solely on the description of how this crash occured, ATGAT would have made little to NO difference in the outcome. However I think there is a VERY valuable lesson that was over-looked. You can't steer when your brakes are locked up. The number of times an EXPERIENCED rider has ridden straight into a crash far outnumber those that simply rode around it. You WILL REACT in the manner in which you practice. So if your crash avoidance practice is nothing more than emergency braking, you better buy one of them airbag suits
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post #18 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 7:06 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcon2
What brand of gear were you wearing? I am surprised that the right elbow ripped at only five mph!
A crash is a very dynamic and has lots of variable and factor that go into compromising any protective gear. So just having a brand name may sound very attractive but in my riding experience (sporttouring/racing/touring) having a name brand is not always the best product. Specifically in regards to protective jackets it all depends on material, stitching technique, applications, armor quality and armor placements. I've seen high end Dainese gear fail more than once or are just designed so complicated that a small scuffed up leather jacket on the armored elbow is a total loss for repair. Even the same jacket's armor cannot be modified or relocated for better fitment.

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post #19 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 8:40 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teach
Based solely on the description of how this crash occured, ATGAT would have made little to NO difference in the outcome.
No, but an ATGAT adherer probably would not have been riding so recklessly! If he was ATGAT, his mindset before the accident would have been different. When you put on the gear, you have already come to the realization that accidents will happen. That fool felt invincible and rode accordingly.

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post #20 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 8:58 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcon2
No, but an ATGAT adherer probably would not have been riding so recklessly! If he was ATGAT, his mindset before the accident would have been different. When you put on the gear, you have already come to the realization that accidents will happen. That fool felt invincible and rode accordingly.
+1

Well this thread opens up a question to you all. How often do you practice evasive maneuvers and what do they consist of.

I ask this based on past students that I have encountered outside of the teaching environment and almost everyone of them admire that they forgot more than half of what we have taught them.

Personally I practice swerving every chance I get. I typically use the car pool lane's diamond shape as my obstacle or use the tar marking on the road.

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post #21 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 11:01 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcon2
If he was ATGAT, his mindset before the accident would have been different.
"Where are you going, that you need all that stuff?"

"If I knew that, I probably wouldn't go there!"

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post #22 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 11:18 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavynikonf3
Coming off 215 from Red Rock, off at Lone Mountain. Was completely avoidable. Sold to who? Red Rock loop, about a year ago. 3 R R's trying to get every last horse power out of them. At the highest point in the loop, just before the parking area, one launched himself into the canyon. Horrible glide ratio, but he was armored and survived.
Squids was the word I attempted to type. I wonder who it was???
I might have to wander over to the dealership and see if it is there waiting for the insurance guy to say its totaled.

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post #23 of 40 Old Mar 18th, 2013, 11:25 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
Motorcycles are like hockey skates. Just because you have skates like Sid the Kid doesn't mean you can play hockey with him. Anybody can buy a fast bike. Few know how to ride them well.
+1... well said!

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post #24 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 3:31 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Icon2,

I was wearing a Weise suit - and you're not the only one who's surprised it ripped!

Cheers, StClair

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post #25 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 3:32 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
Motorcycles are like hockey skates. Just because you have skates like Sid the Kid doesn't mean you can play hockey with him. Anybody can buy a fast bike. Few know how to ride them well.
There is more truth in that than most people would beleive, reminds me of a time many years back when I was at a bike shop and some guy was picking up a new hot stroker - the salesman told him to take it easy as this thing had a vicious power band - he pooh poohed the idea and said he knows bikes - got on started the bike pulled off like a bat out of hell lost control when the power band kicked in and smacked the pavement and a bollard no more than thirty metres from where he started - bike totalled and him in hospital
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post #26 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 4:54 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

....Walked away from being swatted full broadside by a Mercedes reversing out into the street last week.
Merc 1, IronPig 0, I bounced arse over tit down the street a few meters thanking god for ATGATT.
Apart from all shook up and teaching Germans a few choice words in English, neither IronPig or Slammer got a scratch.
By the way I use IXS gear.

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post #27 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 5:43 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

A number of years ago I got to crash-test my Motoport Airmesh II Kevlar jacket and pants, as well as the Shoei X-11. Scene: Turning right, I hit a patch of light powder sand in a puddle of wet on an asphalt surface, speed about 12-15 mph. Front end washed out and the bike snap-rolled and body-slammed me into the ground so hard I ended up with a good concussion and 4 cracked ribs. Not a scratch on me, and the Jacket and pants sustained some fuzzy areas from the abrasion. X-11 had a massive scrape along the upper right side. Boots saved a squashed ankle and abrasions. The Doctor in the ER looked at that helmet and said it probably saved me by itself, and the armor did its job in seriously minimizing any major injuries. Do I believe in ATGATT? Oh Yea ! My wife said that expensive gear was worth every penny.


I always tell me students to practice three skills often as they are volatile and you will lose them if not practiced regularly:

1. Quick stops straight ahead. How many of you have ever played with your ABS to see what it does if you have a bike with that installed ?

2. Quick stops in curves.

3. Emergency swerves left and right.


Ride safe out there: You are invisible and everybody is out to kill you.

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post #28 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 7:45 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_r6
Sorry but there are so many times in almost every motorcycle forum I am in that we continually tell other riders to wear ATGATT. In times likes these I try to find the a silverlining or a little humor in a, yes, tragic event but time and time again just we continually just about this issue. Adult riders will do what ever they want and irresponsible riders make a conscious decision to take such risk on their own so be it and I have little sympathy for them.

Let me end by quoting an acquaintance's perspective on motorcycle rising and risk management: "A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid situations that require superior skill."
I guessed I missed the silver lining here...maybe that the guy apparently is going to survive? But in what shape?

My comment really had nothing to do with ATGATT, rider training, or rider skill. It is simply that we are all at risk, and no matter how many precautions we take or how much skill we have, there are going to be accidents.

I think it's important to realize that and be humble and thankful that we're still here and riding; and have some compassion for the victims...even if you don't approve of all of their choices or are convinced that you have superior skills.

I guess we tend to tell ourselves that we're smarter than that or we're better than that...and by doing so we convince ourselves that that's not going to happen to us. But we all know that's not necessarily true.
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post #29 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 8:51 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavynikonf3
Quite a few guys have given me grief about the riding gear I wear, no matter what the season. I believe in ATGAT.

Yesterday was warm and sunny, bright blue skies. I had spent most of the afternoon circulating through some local canyon twisties. Then on the way home I witnessed a really bad bike vs. car accident. I had a front row seat for the whole thing, it was amazing.

I turned right off of the freeway under a yellow light. Saw a bike in the rear views some distance behind me and closing quickly, he ran the red and also turned right. He closed and passed me as I was at the speed limit, 45, he had to be doing 60 or 70 and was on the gas. About 300 yards down the road at an intersection an elderly driver rolled a stop sign. Yes, monster collision. No way he could have avoided it at his speed. He was pitched over the car and landed some 70 feet away--according to the LEO who was there. The car, looked like it was totaled, all air bags went off, both elderly occupants were injured. The rider was wearing a T shirt, jeans, and sneakers. Both shoes flew off of him both ankles bloody and mangled. His lower back looked like the hamburger display in a grocery store, a miracle, his cut rate, cheesy helmet stayed on his head. I asked one of the para medics what he thought, he answered "various broken bones and possible spinal break." And guess what? A first time motorcycle owner, the bike was a K1600GT. Now trash.

Besides a dumb driver, and an even dumber rider, this whole thing could have been avoided. Had the rider been at the speed limit in ATGAT his injuries might had been a simple walk away. Had the driver been more alert and not rolled the sign----and on, and on, and on. It was an amazing thing to see. Wear your gear and stay safe.

I am embarrassed to say it....but some people always seem to find a way to kill themselves, or nearly so. So many "ifs" in the story......I doubt full riding gear would have been much help to that fellow on the motorcycle....Which reminds me; I just returned from a three day trip, riding the Ozarks on my Triumph. I am always amazed at the "bikers" who ride their (98%) Harleys up and down the street outside my motel room wearing the same outfit described above, along with no helmet and the requisit "pirate headgear". I'm sure these are all nice people, but how can they do that? And these are not kids, but people in their 40s on up.

Deek aka adVentureMan
2013 BMW R1200RT

Gone:
2015 Honda Rancher ATV 4x4
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post #30 of 40 Old Mar 19th, 2013, 9:58 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek
I am embarrassed to say it....but some people always seem to find a way to kill themselves, or nearly so. So many "ifs" in the story......I doubt full riding gear would have been much help to that fellow on the motorcycle....Which reminds me; I just returned from a three day trip, riding the Ozarks on my Triumph. I am always amazed at the "bikers" who ride their (98%) Harleys up and down the street outside my motel room wearing the same outfit described above, along with no helmet and the requisit "pirate headgear". I'm sure these are all nice people, but how can they do that? And these are not kids, but people in their 40s on up.

To make things worst Celebrities are one of the worst violators of ATGATT. I've met professionals such as lawyers and medical professionals violate the ATGATT philosophy. As mentioned before I do my best to promote ATGATT but these folks are adult and they made their choice. I can only offer empathy towards them.

MSF Ridercoach #25680 since 1992

motorcycling is for everybody, but not everybody is for motorcycling
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post #31 of 40 Old Mar 20th, 2013, 2:58 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

A contrarian view:

The proximate cause of the dude on the bike getting hurt was, frankly, his riding like an idiot, not a lack of gear. I suspect he is just as reckless on 4 wheels.

Personally, I do not always wear a lot of gear, especially in the summer months when the heat, even in light gear, is oppressive. Sometimes for me it is a helmet, gloves and sunglasses. If I thought I had to wear all the gear all of the time to be safe I would find a different way to enjoy life.

It is not that I do not care about being safe, though. One thing I do to increase safety is use auxiliary lighting to (hopefully) make myself more visible.
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post #32 of 40 Old Mar 20th, 2013, 4:34 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Let me spout a little.
"One is never safe from accident."
But in our line of work/play we wear certain things to prepare us just in case. We don't plan accidents they just happen. At a construction site you wear a hard hat, safety goggles, work boots and gloves but if the the crane falls . . . well you get the picture. Pick your poison or medicine.
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post #33 of 40 Old Mar 20th, 2013, 5:07 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danrt1100
One thing I do to increase safety is use auxiliary lighting to (hopefully) make myself more visible.
SIDE NOTE:

I've been riding since I was 16 and I don't think ANYTHING I've ever done to increase my visibility has made much of a difference, until recently.

Through a member of the K1600 forum, I was able to converted the amber front turn signal lights to CONSTANT ON / turn signal. The vertical amber lights have caused motorists to actually stop 1/2 out of an intersection. Since I did the conversion, no one has pulled out in front of me from a side street.

Now, back to ATGATT.......

Dano
Tampa, Fl.

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post #34 of 40 Old Mar 21st, 2013, 3:53 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

ATGATT is a bit like insurance.

You do not have it because you expect to use it. However, when you need it - you are glad you have it!

It is always a choice (unless you are my kids wear it or find other modes of transport!)

Best regards
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post #35 of 40 Old Mar 21st, 2013, 4:07 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleuth
ATGATT is a bit like insurance.

You do not have it because you expect to use it. However, when you need it - you are glad you have it!

It is always a choice (unless you are my kids wear it or find other modes of transport!)
Sounds more like the principal of the condom.

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post #36 of 40 Old Mar 23rd, 2013, 9:04 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

It's Harley season here, temps in the 60's and higher so I've been seeing a lot of t shirts and do rags, so have the emergency rooms. I rode a Harley once so I can make fun of them. I also went down on one wearing a full face helmet the guys laughed at and a heavy padded leather jacket. My bike was totaled and I walked away without a scratch. I wised up and bought a BMW, and some riding pants. I don't like to see anyone injured or any bike down but some of these guys are just tempting fate.
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post #37 of 40 Old Mar 23rd, 2013, 11:13 pm
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkrnrd
It's Harley season here, temps in the 60's and higher so I've been seeing a lot of t shirts and do rags, so have the emergency rooms. I rode a Harley once so I can make fun of them. I also went down on one wearing a full face helmet the guys laughed at and a heavy padded leather jacket. My bike was totaled and I walked away without a scratch. I wised up and bought a BMW, and some riding pants. I don't like to see anyone injured or any bike down but some of these guys are just tempting fate.

I remember many moons ago when I rode my sportbike near Tulsa in full race leathers and other motorcyclist on HD and Goldwing gave me the strangest look.

MSF Ridercoach #25680 since 1992

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post #38 of 40 Old Mar 25th, 2013, 1:26 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_r6
"A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid situations that require superior skill."
Without armor, you'll hope that the "superior skill" will be present in the paramedics and the surgeons.

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post #39 of 40 Old Mar 25th, 2013, 1:33 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkrnrd
It's Harley season here, temps in the 60's and higher so I've been seeing a lot of t shirts and do rags, so have the emergency rooms.
Yeah, do rags. Comments thought of but not typed, in case kids or the squeamish ever read this thread.

I will simply say that I am 100% opposed to helmet laws (for adults).

If you have anything that a helmet would protect, you will wear a helmet without being told to.

Smile! I could be BEHIND you!
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post #40 of 40 Old Mar 25th, 2013, 6:08 am
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Re: The case for ATGAT

I'm a proponent of ATGAT too, but the thread here went a couple of different ways so....

There are three phases to accident avoidance.

There is the time when you are scanning the environment looking for all the hazards. At any time your are up to two minutes from an accident. The key here is in playing "what if" and understanding the traffic stream as a dynamic entity. Your best bet is being well rested, aware, and unimpared by pharmaceuticals. Skills during this phase are superior education in riding skill and risk mitigation. MSF lightly touches on this topic as SIPDE/SPA and there are other perception taxonomies like OODA

The second phase is the 5 seconds from riding to an accident. MSF and other training programs focus on crash avoidance. Most of the MSF curriculum is on mitigating the accident by swerve brake, corner, traction control, and similar last second (literaly) mitigations. Superbike school and others focus on the elements of cornering and skills attainment.

Finally there is the impact and what happens post impact. An accident starts when you fire up the bike or decide to go for a ride. That usually freaks people out, but we can follow causal chains back to gear selection and preperation to ride. At the point where another vehicle violates the right of way of another vehicle mitigation of effect is all that is left in an accident. That is the gear you chose to ride in, how physically fit you are, and how much effort you've put into crash bars and protecction of the vehicle.

Once gear is chosen and the side stand is up most of the mitigation of the post violation of right of way has been done. I'm wearing the gear, I'm physically fit as my lard butt is going to be, and I'm focusing on other things like not having an accident in the first place. I educate myself by developing a superior kinetic sense of the bike in a parking lot. That slow speed stuff is incredibly imporant. Most accident terminal speeds aren't the apocryphal bazillion miles per hour, but around 35mph for cities and 45 mph for highways. Most riders scrub some speed off even if that is the act that defeats traction.

I've tried to build a suite of skills in riding analysis so I don' thave accidents in the first place. Seperating traffic objects, moving between objects smartly, mentally modeling the traffic stream as a dynamic engagement that focuses on vectors of intersection. Then not being in those possible intersections. In other words if two object can collide I try not to be there.

If you're riding in jeans and a t-shirt you already failed. Happened to me more than once in my youth. I'm to old to reaquire the squre feet of skin I lost on short rides. When I did that the gear of choice suggested was a jeans jacket. Check out the original MSF videos. If I need those swerving skills and braking techniques I've equally failed. When riding it is much better to not need last second skills and enjoy the ride by just staying out of trouble in the first place.

Just some thoughts

sam
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