Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 5:25 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bikerj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Garland
Posts: 1,078
Exclamation Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

I came across one thread which amounted to an informal poll about people's favorite Hostess products, just to learn that another similar thread about their bankruptcy had been closed/locked up.

What gives?
Are we no longer in the land of the free and home of the brave, where last I looked freedom of speech in America is still a right (though who knows for how much longer)?
Is the ownership/servers located in some communist country where free speech, expression of thought, and the sharing of ideas and debate are not appreciated?
Or do we have administrators/moderators who are concerned that some posts might be politically incorrect, and someone's feelings might get hurt?
What, are politics off limits here being somebody else's agenda is to blame for certain unfavorable outcomes in our economy and society?
Was there something in some user agreement for this site that I missed?
Just in case my point isn't clear, THIS IS TOTAL BS!

Jeff
Big D is my neck of the woods

99 K1200LT (don't need loud pipes w/ 8 spk. stereo)
08 HD wide glide
prior:
07 HD XL1200C (sold!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
78 KZ750 twin
76 CB750F
71 CL175 Scrambler
73? Yamaha 100 enduro

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bikerj is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 6:10 am
Senior Member
 
hoog62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
Posts: 2,862
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

The answers you seek are in blue....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerj
I came across one thread which amounted to an informal poll about people's favorite Hostess products, just to learn that another similar thread about their bankruptcy had been closed/locked up.

What gives?
Are we no longer in the land of the free and home of the brave, where last I looked freedom of speech in America is still a right (though who knows for how much longer)?
Nope

Is the ownership/servers located in some communist country where free speech, expression of thought, and the sharing of ideas and debate are not appreciated?
Nope

Or do we have administrators/moderators who are concerned that some posts might be politically incorrect, and someone's feelings might get hurt?
Political discussions are no longer welcome on this site, and there are several years of history behind that decision.

What, are politics off limits here being somebody else's agenda is to blame for certain unfavorable outcomes in our economy and society?
Not at all. The decision was based more on the behavior that political threads nearly always brought out.

Was there something in some user agreement for this site that I missed?
There is a link to the site guidelines at the bottom of the page.

Just in case my point isn't clear, THIS IS TOTAL BS!

Dave Hoogerland

'08 Triumph Tiger 1050 ABS
'02 K1200LTC "The Silver Snoopy" (gone but not forgotten)
'08 Can-Am Spyder "???"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hoog62 is offline  
post #3 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 6:41 am
Old Slow Guy in A Fast Car
 
katnapinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kyle, Texas, USA
Posts: 8,597
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

A Dave stated Political threads/ talk most of the time turns into a pissing match & it never ends well. The Admins choose to keep this site free of that type of threads. If you really want to talk politics there are may forums for that. Please seek those out but if you want to talk bikes we will be here for you.

Stevie Shreeve
katnapinn is offline  
 
post #4 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 6:58 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bikerj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Garland
Posts: 1,078
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapinn
A Dave stated Political threads/ talk most of the time turns into a pissing match & it never ends well. The Admins choose to keep this site free of that type of threads. If you really want to talk politics there are may forums for that. Please seek those out but if you want to talk bikes we will be here for you.
OK, while I can understand the sentiment behind it, though I don't agree, it seems a sub-forum entitled "chit chat- This is a forum for general, off topic discussions that do not fit in the other forums" is inaccurate, according to your above statement.

Case in point: what does a video of two Russians damn near killing themselves in an inflatable boat have to do with bikes? Hmmm? It wasn't "bike" humor.
If the site's going to be restricted to bikes, then RESTRICT it to bikes.

Also, this reminds me all too much of people who complain about the programming on television, and maybe their children are all screwed up, yet they continue to allow their kids to watch TV, continuing to complain, instead of turning off or getting rid of the TV.

I thought as much, though Dave says otherwise. There's too many people, even in this online "community" who are too sensitive and can't discuss various topics without getting their panties in a wad. Geeez.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure this dead horse has been beatened before, so I'll shut up.

Jeff
Big D is my neck of the woods

99 K1200LT (don't need loud pipes w/ 8 spk. stereo)
08 HD wide glide
prior:
07 HD XL1200C (sold!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
78 KZ750 twin
76 CB750F
71 CL175 Scrambler
73? Yamaha 100 enduro

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bikerj is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 7:54 am
Senior Member
 
hoog62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
Posts: 2,862
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerj
OK, while I can understand the sentiment behind it, though I don't agree, it seems a sub-forum entitled "chit chat- This is a forum for general, off topic discussions that do not fit in the other forums" is inaccurate, according to your above statement.

Case in point: what does a video of two Russians damn near killing themselves in an inflatable boat have to do with bikes? Hmmm? It wasn't "bike" humor.
If the site's going to be restricted to bikes, then RESTRICT it to bikes.

Also, this reminds me all too much of people who complain about the programming on television, and maybe their children are all screwed up, yet they continue to allow their kids to watch TV, continuing to complain, instead of turning off or getting rid of the TV.

I thought as much, though Dave says otherwise. There's too many people, even in this online "community" who are too sensitive and can't discuss various topics without getting their panties in a wad. Geeez.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure this dead horse has been beatened before, so I'll shut up.
You're right Jeff, chit chat is the place for those other topics, but the site is predominately a bike forum and I think that is where Steve was coming from. As for the wadded panties....the decision to ban political threads had at least as much to do with members posting intentionally divisive rhetoric and trolling the forum for kicks than it did the sensitivity of some members.

Dave Hoogerland

'08 Triumph Tiger 1050 ABS
'02 K1200LTC "The Silver Snoopy" (gone but not forgotten)
'08 Can-Am Spyder "???"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hoog62 is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 8:03 am
Senior Member
 
hschisler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rushville, OH, USA
Posts: 7,755
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

I understand why a thread can (and should) be closed, and as the moderators mentioned above there are site guidelines published for all to read, and there is a long history of those for and against political discussions on this site. For a time, a forum called The Crapper was available for controversial discussions but it was closed because it got kind of hot and heavy.

In the present circumstance (the Hostess Twinkies debacle ) I think we could have been warned before the thread was closed, but then I'm not a moderator (that's a thankless job!).

I didn't include the appropriate emoticon at the time but I thought it was funny that a discussion about Twinkies could become political, but then politics are behind it.

Final comment? I don't know the percentage of bike-related vs. non-bike-related posts on this site, but the Chit Chat forum is wide open, topic-wise, and I for one like it. I have little to post regarding bikes, but more to contribute about random topics like Twinkies. I see Chit Chat as a bunch of guys shooting the breeze and the conversation goes anywhere.

Howard Schisler
2015 BMW K1600GTL
2009 BMW K1200LT - 60k miles
2012 BMW F650GS (sold)
2005 BMW K1200LT - "Gray Ghost", traded at 120k miles
2005 Honda Shadow 650 (sold)
AMA, IBA, BMW MOA. CCRs: Braselton 2006, Osage Beach 2007, Duluth 2012


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[/URL]
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hschisler is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 8:28 am
Old Slow Guy in A Fast Car
 
katnapinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kyle, Texas, USA
Posts: 8,597
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
You're right Jeff, chit chat is the place for those other topics, but the site is predominately a bike forum and I think that is where Steve was coming from. As for the wadded panties....the decision to ban political threads had at least as much to do with members posting intentionally divisive rhetoric and trolling the forum for kicks than it did the sensitivity of some members.
Thanks Dave & Yes Jeff my intent was to state that this is a bike forum for the most part. We all like the common "OFF Topic" threads & jokes that enhance this forum beyond just talking about bikes. Having said that some topics (politics ,religion just to name a few) just bring out the worst in some people & that is not what this forum is all about.

Stevie Shreeve
katnapinn is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 9:47 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Posts: 616
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapinn
Thanks Dave & Yes Jeff my intent was to state that this is a bike forum for the most part. We all like the common "OFF Topic" threads & jokes that enhance this forum beyond just talking about bikes. Having said that some topics (politics ,religion just to name a few) just bring out the worst in some people & that is not what this forum is all about.
Well said, Stevie.
JimE is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 10:00 am
Senior Member
 
JPSpen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Jones, OK, USA
Posts: 3,525
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Politics and Religion.. Getting folks killed for thousands of years...

And that's really the bottom line...


I was addicted to SuzyQ's for a couple of years.. I think there's chemicals in the filling...

I'm going to miss the Cherry Pie's the most though...Drop one of those in a bowl and slide a couple scoops of ice cream on top.... That's only one of the reasons I'm getting fat...

But the reality is, They're just going to sell off those brands to other companies and Twinkies will be right back on the production line... I'll bet very few folks lose their jobs for long... Continental Baking Company makes a lot of bread for a lot of folks.. Most of the fast food industry relies on the local versions of these bakeries... Most will not shut down.. They'll just change hands and move right along...

The price of bread will go up, And some rich man will get a little richer..Corporatism...

And yes, This website is privately owned if somebody who has the power doesn't like your post.. It's gone...

John

Live and direct from the new earthquake capitol of the U.S. Jones, Oklahoma
08 Can-Am Spyder (Miss Lindy's)
03 R1200CLC Capri Blue "Flipper"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01 R1100RT Glacier Blue "Lucky"
91 R100GS "It'sNotAMoneyPit"
The voices in my head may not be real, But they have some good ideas!


"I like the wind in my face and Boobies on my back. No, Wait, I got that backwards"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JPSpen is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 2:49 pm
Member
 
DerVerge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clinton Twp, Mi, USA
Posts: 69
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapinn
Thanks Dave & Yes Jeff my intent was to state that this is a bike forum for the most part. We all like the common "OFF Topic" threads & jokes that enhance this forum beyond just talking about bikes. Having said that some topics (politics ,religion just to name a few) just bring out the worst in some people & that is not what this forum is all about.
I absolutely agree with this sort of aim for this forum. I would like to see this idea on other forums as well. Believe you me, I like a good political or religous debate from time to time. It is very fun to see just how upset you can make a person, but, I have seen just that ruin what was a good forum. Personally, I come here to talk about bikes. I don't want to hear bull ____ like "John so and so bought the x brand because he is a stupid (insert political affiliation). All it does is destroy the quality of the site you are on, and drive away members. I could name 9 different forums I do not visit any longer for these very reasons.

On that note, I wonder how well a website set up specifically for political ARGUMENT would work out........

02' K12LT ~ 83K '97 F650GS ~ 32K' 81 XS400 ~ 9K
MOA #184190 Club #231 48035
DerVerge is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 4:51 pm
Senior Member
 
JPSpen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Jones, OK, USA
Posts: 3,525
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

No Twinkies at the store..... I missed out on them....





John

Live and direct from the new earthquake capitol of the U.S. Jones, Oklahoma
08 Can-Am Spyder (Miss Lindy's)
03 R1200CLC Capri Blue "Flipper"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01 R1100RT Glacier Blue "Lucky"
91 R100GS "It'sNotAMoneyPit"
The voices in my head may not be real, But they have some good ideas!


"I like the wind in my face and Boobies on my back. No, Wait, I got that backwards"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JPSpen is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old Nov 17th, 2012, 11:41 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bikerj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Garland
Posts: 1,078
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerVerge
...Personally, I come here to talk about bikes...On that note, I wonder how well a website set up specifically for political ARGUMENT would work out........
If that's what you and others want, then more power to you. However, I find I can read only so many oil threads and so many FD failure threads, until I become disinterested. A steady diet of any one thing gets boring, and I'd go so far as to say unhealthy.

I might want to make new friends, and this might be a place to start, but all I'm ever going to know about these folks is maybe how competent a rider they are, how good they are at doing their own maintenance, and what's they're favorite color for a scooter. Pretty one dimensional, if you ask me.

Somebody passes (as in dies), I couldn't say I knew that person. Even if I had ridden with them a few times. Someone want or need a reference, sure- I just hope it's re: bikes because that's all we've decided we wanted to know about this particular "community". Who's to say one of us isn't some nut-job/serial killer, stalking a victim because they had a bad experience with a cyclist in their past.

Also, when it comes to online "communities", I don't want to have to belong to a dozen or two different forums to maintain intellectual stimulus. The suggestion that this place is only for bike talk is like going to the local barber shop where the rules are "only haircuts" no chit chat, no talking about anything but cutting hair. Sounds pretty boring to me.

It was mentioned that it's fun to push somebody's buttons to see how long it takes to piss them off. I see this kind of behavior everyday with the men I work with. I can only think of two reasons for doing so- one is because someone is bored, and the other is because their level of maturity isn't much higher than the street curb. Sometimes both applies. If that's anyone's reason for debating, then I have no use for them.

Re: your question about forums for politics, there are numerous ones. One is policymic.com It's not as bad as I've seen some comments on Facebook, but it gets interesting.

Jeff
Big D is my neck of the woods

99 K1200LT (don't need loud pipes w/ 8 spk. stereo)
08 HD wide glide
prior:
07 HD XL1200C (sold!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
78 KZ750 twin
76 CB750F
71 CL175 Scrambler
73? Yamaha 100 enduro

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bikerj is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old Nov 18th, 2012, 7:27 am
Member
 
DerVerge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clinton Twp, Mi, USA
Posts: 69
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerVerge
It is very fun to see just how upset you can make a person,
That was a scarcastic comment. This is exactly what happens every time a political/religous debate is started on a non P/R forum. It is pointless.

I understand you are looking for more intellectual stimulus. Unfortunately, p/r postings generally inject a stimulus to a board which eventually drives members away. P/R discussions on message boards are just like ones in real life. They are ARGUMENTS, not DEBATES. People use emotions to argue their point, not FACTS. Everything turns ugly, friendships are lost, and people leave.

You can discuss more than just bikes and riding here. You can post anything you want in the "off topic" section. Anything but political or religous comments. As for being a member of multiple online communities in order to stay entertained, I don't think you have much a choice. As stated before, I have left almost a dozen forums because of the P/R wars that took over the boards, and made them not worth showing up to.

02' K12LT ~ 83K '97 F650GS ~ 32K' 81 XS400 ~ 9K
MOA #184190 Club #231 48035
DerVerge is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old Nov 19th, 2012, 3:16 pm
Senior Member
 
Gino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Modesto, CA, USA
Posts: 969
Garage
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
You're right Jeff, chit chat is the place for those other topics, but the site is predominately a bike forum and I think that is where Steve was coming from. As for the wadded panties....the decision to ban political threads had at least as much to do with members posting intentionally divisive rhetoric and trolling the forum for kicks than it did the sensitivity of some members.
I'm against P/R postings going bad as much as the next guy... when the S/N ratio gets too high I tune these out and move on to other more important threads about oil and tires...

Has there been any thought to updating the guidelines to actually reflect the policy of banning p/r posts? From what I read, there's nothing specific about banning "political and religious" threads - and nothing regarding closing threads down without a warning - did I miss it?

Here's another "policy" one I thought appropriate: "Don't be too thin skinned: Try not to take things too personally. If you can't take the heat, then do not participate."

BTW - there's also a line item in there that mentions "No Commercial Posting" - I guess the new owners didn't read that part before poisoning the site with ads...

Should there be an updated set of guidelines based on the transfer of ownership?

Not disagreeing with the moderators - just trying to clarify if site policy reflects what's actually happening...

EDIT - OK Found this "whatever happens" clause... "The owners of BMW Luxury Touring Community reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread, without notification, for any reason. All information contained within this website is the intellectual property of the owners of BMW Luxury Touring Community."

Are Enthusiasts Communities LLC still considered the "owners" of this site?

Gino
Modesto, CA
'02 Silver
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw. --Rush
Gino is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old Nov 19th, 2012, 6:15 pm
Senior Member
 
Atomicman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bellevue, WA, USA
Posts: 1,560
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino
I'm against P/R postings going bad as much as the next guy... when the S/N ratio gets too high I tune these out and move on to other more important threads about oil and tires...

Has there been any thought to updating the guidelines to actually reflect the policy of banning p/r posts? From what I read, there's nothing specific about banning "political and religious" threads - and nothing regarding closing threads down without a warning - did I miss it?

Here's another "policy" one I thought appropriate: "Don't be too thin skinned: Try not to take things too personally. If you can't take the heat, then do not participate."

BTW - there's also a line item in there that mentions "No Commercial Posting" - I guess the new owners didn't read that part before poisoning the site with ads...

Should there be an updated set of guidelines based on the transfer of ownership?

Not disagreeing with the moderators - just trying to clarify if site policy reflects what's actually happening...

EDIT - OK Found this "whatever happens" clause... "The owners of BMW Luxury Touring Community reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread, without notification, for any reason. All information contained within this website is the intellectual property of the owners of BMW Luxury Touring Community."

Are Enthusiasts Communities LLC still considered the "owners" of this site?
Another Forum I belong to limits Political Discussions to a Private Political Discussion Forum that is only accesiible to supporters of the site. Maybe BMWlt needs to have a political forum, sub-forum?

The Older I Get, the Faster I Was!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2009 "Fully Farkled"Black Metallic Sapphire RT

Last edited by Atomicman; Nov 19th, 2012 at 7:35 pm.
Atomicman is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old Nov 19th, 2012, 6:53 pm
Member
 
DerVerge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clinton Twp, Mi, USA
Posts: 69
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Another Forum I belong to limits Political Discussions to a Private Political Discussion Forum that is only accesiibleto supporters of the site. Maybe BMWlt needs to ahve a political forum sub forum?
If the mods did not mind this, I would not be against it. That is, as long as the p/r posts STAY IN the p/r sub categories....

02' K12LT ~ 83K '97 F650GS ~ 32K' 81 XS400 ~ 9K
MOA #184190 Club #231 48035
DerVerge is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old Nov 19th, 2012, 8:02 pm
Senior Member
 
hoog62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
Posts: 2,862
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino
Has there been any thought to updating the guidelines to actually reflect the policy of banning p/r posts?
Yes there has...ultimately it was decided to allow the mods and admins some discretion rather than paint the membership into a tightly defined box regarding the subjects. Believe me, there are members that would interpret a "ban" to preclude even the most innocuous p/r posts. For me personally, the day they ban "Merry Christmas Everyone" posts is the day I leave the board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino
Should there be an updated set of guidelines based on the transfer of ownership?

Are Enthusiasts Communities LLC still considered the "owners" of this site?
I don't believe the new owners are looking to change way the board operates. While Enthusiasts Communities LLC may no longer "own" the site, the administration is still predominately in their hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Another Forum I belong to limits Political Discussions to a Private Political Discussion Forum that is only accesiibleto supporters of the site. Maybe BMWlt needs to ahve a political forum sub forum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerVerge
If the mods did not mind this, I would not be against it. That is, as long as the p/r posts STAY IN the p/r sub categories....
Been there...done that. We had a sub-forum dedicated to controversial topics for a time. It soon devolved, and was eventually eliminated due to the negative effect on the comradery promoted by the board as a whole.

Dave Hoogerland

'08 Triumph Tiger 1050 ABS
'02 K1200LTC "The Silver Snoopy" (gone but not forgotten)
'08 Can-Am Spyder "???"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hoog62 is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old Nov 19th, 2012, 8:26 pm
Member
 
DerVerge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clinton Twp, Mi, USA
Posts: 69
Re: Is this the land of censorship and no Twinkies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Been there...done that. We had a sub-forum dedicated to controversial topics for a time. It soon devolved, and was eventually eliminated due to the negative effect on the comradery promoted by the board as a whole.
I figured that. See everybody? P/R crap does not work on non P/R boards. Even this thread is becoming a stale mate.

I vote no! No p/r!

and with that, no more from me on this topic.....

02' K12LT ~ 83K '97 F650GS ~ 32K' 81 XS400 ~ 9K
MOA #184190 Club #231 48035
DerVerge is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome