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post #1 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:27 am Thread Starter
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Theft at gunpoint

This is a theoretical question for US based riders which will probably get a theoretical answer, but here goes anyway.

Say somebody wearing a full face helmet comes up to you after you have just put the keys in the ignition, pulls out a handgun and asks you to dismount and back away and after you have done so, starts the bike and rides away.

If you are also carrying a handgun, can you legally shoot the thief in the back and kill him, without being prosecuted by the police.

I know every state has different laws, so this is directed to people who live in one where it is permitted to carry a handgun on ones person.
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post #2 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:35 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

In Texas yes
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post #3 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:45 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Most US states that have CC (Concealed Carry) laws require you to be threatened with severe bodily harm before you can use deadly force to protect yourself.

In your theoretical case, in some states, you would be charged with homicide.

Let the bike go, thank your lucky stars you weren't injured and file a stolen vehicle report.

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post #4 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:46 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

In Ohio: no. As has been explained to me, you can't use deadly force to defend property, or yourself if the threat is gone. Once the thief is riding away your life is not in danger.

Bad guy comes into your house to steal something, confronts you, and you feel like your life is in danger? Different story.

In your scenario: Bad guy is still facing you, gun pointed at you? Different story. I would still let him take the dang bike and live to ride another day, but you didn't ask that question.

Of course, if he's just stolen an LT he won't get very far. He'll probably drop it when he comes to the first stop because he won't know how to handle it properly.

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post #5 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:49 am Thread Starter
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Would having the handgun put against your chest be considered to have been threatened with severe bodily harm ?
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post #6 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 12:02 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMartin
In Texas yes
God bless Texas!

You shouldn't have to shoot the perp to stop them from taking your LT.
The perp will have to put the weapon away to ride off. At that point just tackle him and leave him pinned under the beast while you pull out your phone and call the police.

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post #7 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 12:19 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

I think I would just drop the bike, step back and watch him struggle to try to pick it up with a gun in his hand. I think not!!! The second the gun wasn't pointed at me I would pull out my trusty Glock 45 and point it at his chest. Then the second he made any sudden move, I would shoot him dead. At that point I was "fearing for my life" because I know he has a gun and was trying to rob me. The "fearing for your life" is the key component you must have, to be justified to shoot somebody. I would just recommend you shoot to kill, because just remember, a dead man has no story. As long as he has a weapon and you didn't shoot him in the back you are more than likely in the clear.

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post #8 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 12:24 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

In Texas we shoot first & ask questions second.
I carry & it is ALWAYS within reach. Also we can defend our property with deadly force.

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post #9 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 12:44 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

You've waited too long, should have shot him before the started riding away.
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post #10 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 1:09 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

WOW! Ok this is from a part of this rock on the other side of the pond, but here, you would be charged with murder. Period.
Even if you saw a guy raping your underage daughter (as seen recently in TX) and you killed him it would be a murder charge with mild making circumstances.
There is no such thing as a carry permit (unless you are a politician) you may legally own a assault rifle but not the ammo.
Shooting somebody just for nicking your bike would be considered a mite over the top.

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post #11 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 1:24 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
If you are also carrying a handgun, can you legally shoot the thief in the back and kill him, without being prosecuted by the police.
I suspect in most states that if you shoot someone in the back the very least that will happen is that you will be arrested and have a grand jury or a prosecutor determine if you are then charged with a crime.

In Massachusetts....go directly to jail, spend any and all the money you have to find out how long.

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post #12 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 2:54 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Would having the handgun put against your chest be considered to have been threatened with severe bodily harm ?
Easier to disarm with the piece against your chest!

Of course that is a threat, but if he gets on the bike and rides away, there is no more threat.

Wonder why the original hypothetical.

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post #13 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 3:09 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

In Oregon, when I took the concealed carry class, I was told by the instructor and a police officer that theft of property (alone) would not justify the use of deadly force.

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post #14 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 3:48 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint. Not at night in Texas.

PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B)to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


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post #15 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 3:53 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint. Not at night in Texas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLTex
PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


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post #16 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 4:02 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

If one is licensed to carry, carry at all times or what is the point. And once you are threatened respond with force to neutralize the threat. In Texas It is well defined as to which circumstances the use of deadly force is allowed. Over on the BMWMOA site this thread would have been censored for the discussion of guns and the use of deadly force. I love it over here even of I am only an RT guy.
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post #17 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 4:07 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

My wife a I took a CCW class in Missouri and after the instructor / police officer described what WILL happen after you shoot some one in life threatening defence = arrest + legal fees I might take my chances with a good ass beating . He stated that the cost of legal defence after a shooting starts at $15K up front .
Give up the keys with a smile and call State Farm , already paid for. I just try and not go places where a CCW might be needed .

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post #18 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 4:18 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Shooting people in the back is a BIG NO-NO in most states. You most certainly may defend yourself against an armed attack. The problem is MOST people, even those who carry on a regular basis, are NOT always prepared to engage a bad-guy for a lot of reasons.

If you do carry Concealed (I do) you have to be extremely AWARE of things, people, situations ALL AROUND you! It is not enough to 'just carry' you need to be trained to a high degree, you have to know the law, and you have to be willing to defend yourself and others.

Also, your handgun may be tucked away in a in-waistband holster, or under your coat.
It must be easily accessible! Do you have enough ammo to engage and hold out? All these issues come to mind. 'Carrying' carries a lot of responsibilities.

And, as John Wayne said in the 'Shootist' most men just aren't willing!

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post #19 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 4:21 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Don't know the answer to that, but I do know this. Anyone who tries to take something that doesn't belong to them away from someone who owns that property, deserves to be shot. Thieves are just barely one notch higher than child molesters on the list of those who are scum.

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post #20 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 4:31 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife
Don't know the answer to that, but I do know this. Anyone who tries to take something that doesn't belong to them away from someone who owns that property, deserves to be shot. Thieves are just barely one notch higher than child molesters on the list of those who are scum.
No so fast Slim...This is from PA Law...!

If you're NOT at home:
- You MUST retreat from a threat prior to using deadly force if at all possible.
- Deadly force is only permissible when employed to prevent or stop serious bodily injury, death, rape, or kidnapping.
- In such cases where a crime is already underway against another person (for example, you see a woman being attacked/raped or a child being kidnapped), you do not need to retreat, as doing so could cause further injury and/or death to the victim.

If you're at home:
- You have NO duty to retreat from your own home.
- Deadly force is only permissible when employed to prevent or stop serious bodily injury, death, rape, or kidnapping.

In both cases:
- You do NOT have the right to use deadly force to protect possessions. You can not kill someone to prevent them from stealing your car, jewelry, etc.
- While I don't believe there's anything in the law specifically stating it, threat escalation rules apply. If you just walk up to a guy attacking a woman and shoot him without attempting to employ non-lethal methods first (like yelling at him to stop, for example), it's likely you'll end up in court.
- Even if the use of deadly force is considered justified, and you're cleared of criminal charges or charges are not filed, you can still be sued in civil court by the person or the estate of the person you shot.

Clear as mud, right?

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post #21 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 5:41 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmhetzel
I think I would just drop the bike, step back and watch him struggle to try to pick it up with a gun in his hand. I think not!!! The second the gun wasn't pointed at me I would pull out my trusty Glock 45 and point it at his chest. Then the second he made any sudden move, I would shoot him dead. At that point I was "fearing for my life" because I know he has a gun and was trying to rob me. The "fearing for your life" is the key component you must have, to be justified to shoot somebody. I would just recommend you shoot to kill, because just remember, a dead man has no story. As long as he has a weapon and you didn't shoot him in the back you are more than likely in the clear.

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post #22 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 6:10 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

It's a little o t but someone else mentioned the beating death of a molester in Texas. I see the grand jury failed to indict. I think in Texas that is a final decision, and there is no other recourse. And there was no arrest so not even an arrest record.
In other jurisdictions, there may be a prosecuting attorney or district attorney, who, after examining the facts, may decline to file charges. Before or after an arrest.
However, sometimes there is a later recourse to a grand jury indictment. A second review or chance to file charges.
I think there is a more interesting case coming up in San Jose. The beating of any elderly molester, many years later.
By a man who was no doubted haunted and plagued throughout his life by the molestation.
Charges were filed and the matter is set for trial, which has begun, I believe.
It's o t also, but let us see what the jury says.
dc

In the Texas beating case, even if charges were filed, there is an excellent case, I think for not guilty by reason of temporary insanity. Heat of passion killing. There clearly was no intent, and immediate remorse and concern for the victim. All mitigating factors, as well as an indication of the lack of intent.

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post #23 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 6:26 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

I would not shoot someone for trying to steal my bike.
But i would instruct them on proper starting procedure and shift points.

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post #24 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 8:26 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennismusil
I would not shoot someone for trying to steal my bike.:
I would shoot to kill anybody that is old enough to know better for stealing anything of mine regardless of value if I could. Steal a piece of gum from me & your DEAD if I catch you.

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post #25 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 8:58 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Point a gun at me you better be ready to use it - I certainly will. I would not shoot them in the back. I would roll them over and shoot them in the front.

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post #26 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 9:14 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

I don't believe it would be legal to shoot somebody in the back in michigan.

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post #27 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 10:35 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Would having the handgun put against your chest be considered to have been threatened with severe bodily harm ?
Again, in Ohio (and it sounds like in some other states): YES. But the question was posed as: bad guy has taken the bike and is riding away. You can't shoot the bad guy (in Ohio) at that point. The threat is gone.

If there IS a threat of bodily harm, you can use deadly force.
If the threat is GONE, you can't go chase after the guy and shoot him... no matter how much it may be what he deserves, what is right, or what you feel like doing.
And you can't use deadly force to stop the bad guys who are stealing your TV as you pull into your driveway.

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post #28 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:09 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by JATownsend
Shooting people in the back is a BIG NO-NO in most states. You most certainly may defend yourself against an armed attack. The problem is MOST people, even those who carry on a regular basis, are NOT always prepared to engage a bad-guy for a lot of reasons.

If you do carry Concealed (I do) you have to be extremely AWARE of things, people, situations ALL AROUND you! It is not enough to 'just carry' you need to be trained to a high degree, you have to know the law, and you have to be willing to defend yourself and others.

Also, your handgun may be tucked away in a in-waistband holster, or under your coat.
It must be easily accessible! Do you have enough ammo to engage and hold out? All these issues come to mind. 'Carrying' carries a lot of responsibilities.

And, as John Wayne said in the 'Shootist' most men just aren't willing!
You've touched on my issue with Concealed Carry laws...in Washington state there isn't any requirement for training on when and how to use deadly force. It's just basically background check, sign, here's your permit. Then, you have cowboys with guns who think they know how to use them because they hit a few targets at the range or a few cans in the woods. Scary.

Life happens...you control your reaction.

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post #29 of 66 Old Jun 21st, 2012, 11:42 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

In Nevada the metro police will kill them for you...

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post #30 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 8:10 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

As a canadian I can only shake my head.

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post #31 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 8:10 am Thread Starter
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMitchell
Easier to disarm with the piece against your chest!

Of course that is a threat, but if he gets on the bike and rides away, there is no more threat.

Wonder why the original hypothetical.
The reason I asked is this.
There is a thread in a local BMW site about somebody having their R1300S stolen at gunpoint. The only people who are allowed to carry weapons here (Spain), like most other european countries, are the police and the armed forces.
This of course doesn´t apply to no-gooders, mainly Rumanians and other eastern europeans, who apply their own laws to themselves.
Of course the USA was mentioned and how over there you could shoot anyone stealing things from you.
Just wanted to hear your side of the story.
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post #32 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 9:35 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by pickerbiker
You've touched on my issue with Concealed Carry laws...in Washington state there isn't any requirement for training on when and how to use deadly force. It's just basically background check, sign, here's your permit. Then, you have cowboys with guns who think they know how to use them because they hit a few targets at the range or a few cans in the woods. Scary.
The same can be said about 'Cars & Drivers'...Boaters...Cyclists...Archers...People with Chainsaws...or any OTHER activity!

In reality, folks with CCWs ... CPLs ... or whatever your state calls a 'Concealed Carry Permit, have the LOWEST rate for misuse of ALL Americans who own firearms. Clearly, people who have taken the trouble, the cost and time to learn how to be a 'Safe' armed citizen practice their sport and their self defense tactics and are the better for it.

Do not lump ALL gun owners into one tiny bag!

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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Would having the handgun put against your chest be considered to have been threatened with severe bodily harm ?
Most assuredly YES.

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post #34 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 9:53 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountianMama
As a canadian I can only shake my head.
Eric, we have somethings called a 'Constitution' and ' A Bill of Rights'.

Our 2nd Amendment states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

American's are proud of our history and our Constitution. The men who created it were smarter than most today! Our 1st Amendment guarantees 'Free Speech', but we have learned that without the 2nd Amendment, the 1st can be easily denied!

You have just had a 'spat' of killings up in your neck of the woods! Who are you going to blame that on? GUNS or people??

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post #35 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 10:13 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
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This is a theoretical question for US based riders which will probably get a theoretical answer, but here goes anyway.

Say somebody wearing a full face helmet comes up to you after you have just put the keys in the ignition, pulls out a handgun and asks you to dismount and back away and after you have done so, starts the bike and rides away.

If you are also carrying a handgun, can you legally shoot the thief in the back and kill him, without being prosecuted by the police.

I know every state has different laws, so this is directed to people who live in one where it is permitted to carry a handgun on ones person.
There are just opinions and observations from my 30+ years in law enforcement.

In your particular scenario, a handgun if pointed at you and maybe even displayed gives the criminal what is called "AOJ", the Ability, the Oppurtunity, and puts you (or someone else) in Jeopardy of having deadly force used against them. You can use force, up to and including deadly force to defend yourself from deadly force. I really don't see any sensible LEO charging you with anything, and remember, rookies are NOT homicide investigators. Could your shooting be presented by the District Attorney to a Grand Jury for possible indictment and charges? Sure, and probably will be. But remember, the Grand Jury is made up of citizens.

Now again, in your particular scenario he's already got the "drop" on you. How fast a draw are you? Why risk your life over a motorcycle? Remember, once he's on that bike and leaving the crime against YOU, a person, is OVER. How can a fleeing criminal be a threat of deadly force to you? In this state, we can't shoot them and you can't either.

Now someone else touched on something that does bug me. In the State of Georgia a citizen can get a firearms license valid for 5 years by passing a background check and paying a fee. NO training in firearms safety is needed or required. NO use of deadly force explanation or training is needed. You can legally carry anything from a .22 cal derringer to a Desert Eagle. It does not provide for nationwide carry.

On the other hand the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (Federal) provides that employed officers can carry nationwide and authorized retirees meeting specifications can carry a firearm even nationwide. But how about these requirements for the retiree? An annual qualification with the type of firearm. Annual safety training. Annual use of deadly force training. (All 3 to be done by a state certified firearms instructor) You can only carry the type of firearm you qualify with (revolver or semi auto). Be issued retired credentials by your agency. Be issued a card by your state of residence (annually) and pay the fee. You can qualify with both a revolver or semi auto but a separate fee and qualification is needed for each.

Seems kind of backwards doesn't it?

Oh and here, theft at gunpoint is armed robbery.

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post #36 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 10:20 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Not to add fuel to the fire but . . . "The incident, Schmidt said, has strengthened his views in opposition of Illinois' concealed carry laws. "

From this article

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post #37 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 10:57 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

This looks like a no win discussion.
I do not blame guns.
People make choices and that includes what they do with their guns.
The Trayvon Martin case is an example of poor judgement.
I see senseless killings all over the world, not just Canada or the USA.
In Guatemala if you have something of value you better carry a weapon.
Altho you may have the right to bear arms, I do not think it is necessary to walk around with weapons.
As Canadians we get along quite well with each other without the need to carry. As is the case in most of Europe.
We all have the right to own weapons or to go hunting, just not on the street.
I am sure most of us feel passionately about what we believe but most would agree that there is a strong difference of opinion between Canadians and Americans.
We too are a free country but do not feel slighted by not bearing arms publicly.
Since we are a democracy, we can always change the laws if enough people get upset. But we seem to quite happy with our constitution and bill of rights.

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post #38 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 11:01 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

I'm sure I would be plenty pissed, and I always have my Kahr .40 at the ready, but I don't think I could purposely shoot a man in the back for theft EVEN if he stuck a gun in my face. If I don't already have my weapon in hand it's way too late anyway - so what are you going to do? It's only a "thing" and can easily be replaced. Here's the keys, have fun, and oh, don't forget to watch out for left turners!

(Then, just sit there and laugh as he tries to figure out that damn immobilizer! )

To me it just doesn't seem to fit the standard that allows use of deadly force: shooting him in the back as he rides away...

Now, if we were both drawn, and he said "I'm going to shoot you if you don't give me the keys", I would bust a cap in his noggin' in a heartbeat. No discussion. I would then bust another one in the lower K5 just for good measure. It would be highly unlikely - in Arizona anyway - that I would even be charged and/or arrested. This is truly the wild west.

Aside, I don't think in the almost ten years I've been on the forum that I've EVER heard of an LT being stolen - at gun point or otherwise.


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post #39 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 11:11 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountianMama
This looks like a no win discussion.
I do not blame guns.
People make choices and that includes what they do with their guns.
The Trayvon Martin case is an example of poor judgement.
I see senseless killings all over the world, not just Canada or the USA.
In Guatemala if you have something of value you better carry a weapon.
Altho you may have the right to bear arms, I do not think it is necessary to walk around with weapons.
As Canadians we get along quite well with each other without the need to carry. As is the case in most of Europe.
We all have the right to own weapons or to go hunting, just not on the street.
I am sure most of us feel passionately about what we believe but most would agree that there is a strong difference of opinion between Canadians and Americans.
We too are a free country but do not feel slighted by not bearing arms publicly.
Since we are a democracy, we can always change the laws if enough people get upset. But we seem to quite happy with our constitution and bill of rights.
I lived in BC for 6 months a while back. I of course had to mail my pistol back to myself at the border or face a huge fine for trying to cross with it - which would have been easy to do.

I never, not for a moment missed it. It was in fact, quite a relief not feeling the need to have it with me at all times. One less thing to be stressed out about since carrying is an enormous responsibility.

I liked that.

I wish we could import a lot of things about Canadian culture to the US - it would be a better country. I think we had about the same *take* on life until about the early 1960's when this country started going down a large sink hole.


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post #40 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 1:10 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by JATownsend
No so fast Slim...This is from PA Law...!

If you're NOT at home:
- You MUST retreat from a threat prior to using deadly force if at all possible.
- Deadly force is only permissible when employed to prevent or stop serious bodily injury, death, rape, or kidnapping.
- In such cases where a crime is already underway against another person (for example, you see a woman being attacked/raped or a child being kidnapped), you do not need to retreat, as doing so could cause further injury and/or death to the victim.

If you're at home:
- You have NO duty to retreat from your own home.
- Deadly force is only permissible when employed to prevent or stop serious bodily injury, death, rape, or kidnapping.

In both cases:
- You do NOT have the right to use deadly force to protect possessions. You can not kill someone to prevent them from stealing your car, jewelry, etc.
- While I don't believe there's anything in the law specifically stating it, threat escalation rules apply. If you just walk up to a guy attacking a woman and shoot him without attempting to employ non-lethal methods first (like yelling at him to stop, for example), it's likely you'll end up in court.
- Even if the use of deadly force is considered justified, and you're cleared of criminal charges or charges are not filed, you can still be sued in civil court by the person or the estate of the person you shot.

Clear as mud, right?
I'm not so slim, shorty, but slow down. I never said it was legal, I simply stated that, in my opinion, a thief deserves to be shot. Scum never sleeps.

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post #41 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 5:16 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Thanks Ron!!!!!

Eric von Laue

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post #42 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 6:57 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by JATownsend
The same can be said about 'Cars & Drivers'...Boaters...Cyclists...Archers...People with Chainsaws...or any OTHER activity!

In reality, folks with CCWs ... CPLs ... or whatever your state calls a 'Concealed Carry Permit, have the LOWEST rate for misuse of ALL Americans who own firearms. Clearly, people who have taken the trouble, the cost and time to learn how to be a 'Safe' armed citizen practice their sport and their self defense tactics and are the better for it.

Do not lump ALL gun owners into one tiny bag!
I believe you've totally missed my point. Also understand I am in COMPLETE agreement with an armed populace and own 5 guns myself.

I'm not sure how you define "misuse". The point I'm making is most of the folks I know (excluding current and ex-LEO's) who have concealed carry permits do not have any experience in the split-second decision making that use of deadly force requires. How could they?? Many are excellent marksmen (at the range, anyway), but have never been tested on how they would react in a deadly force situation. So, THEY don't even know how they would react. IMHO (and, BTW, in the opinion of my LEO friends) a requirement of a concealed carry permit should be at least a day of training on the use of deadly force.

Life happens...you control your reaction.

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post #43 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 8:53 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by pickerbiker
I believe you've totally missed my point. Also understand I am in COMPLETE agreement with an armed populace and own 5 guns myself.

I'm not sure how you define "misuse". The point I'm making is most of the folks I know (excluding current and ex-LEO's) who have concealed carry permits do not have any experience in the split-second decision making that use of deadly force requires. How could they?? Many are excellent marksmen (at the range, anyway), but have never been tested on how they would react in a deadly force situation. So, THEY don't even know how they would react. IMHO (and, BTW, in the opinion of my LEO friends) a requirement of a concealed carry permit should be at least a day of training on the use of deadly force.
+1 I have had a carry permit since 1975, in Washington & Oregon. My wife does not have one, but took a 2 night 8 hour class offered by the Richland Wa. P.D. & the District Attorney. It covered the basics of hand gun safety, time at the range, & several hours by the D.A. on when you can legally use deadly force.You are right, LEOs do not have the experience in that kind of situation. They have to rely on their training & even that sometimes will not do. In 1968 I was forced to react in a situation where a VC soldier came around one end of a revetment while I was at the other end. He aimed a revolver at me & pulled the trigger. All I heard was the click of hammer on firing pin. It was a bad primer in the bullet under the hammer. I found that out when I picked up his weapon after I shot him with a 12 gauge. Not one of my more pleasant memories of being in country. It is not as easy as Hollywood makes it seem, & I still have dreams about it. I have also been the victim of two attempted armed robberies. Both times they showed a pistol tucked in their waistband. I managed to draw my Colt 1911 before they could get theirs out. Did not shoot either one but was tempted. Both are still guests of the state of Washington.
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post #44 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 9:20 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

In Kansas using a weapon to take property from someone is aggravated robbery. The escape of the suspect is considered a threat to society, particularly since in this case he still has his handgun and your motorcycle. Also, this particular crime is still in progress until he is gone from sight. I believe you would be just fine to shoot him anywhere you pleased in this situation.


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post #45 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 11:02 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbob
My wife a I took a CCW class in Missouri and after the instructor / police officer described what WILL happen after you shoot some one in life threatening defence = arrest + legal fees I might take my chances with a good ass beating . He stated that the cost of legal defence after a shooting starts at $15K up front .
Give up the keys with a smile and call State Farm , already paid for. I just try and not go places where a CCW might be needed .

Bob G
This is why our country is going downhill at break neck speed- because there's too many dipsh*ts who allow these laws to be passed at the state and federal levels.

clarification: not insinuating Bob fits this mindset.

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post #46 of 66 Old Jun 22nd, 2012, 11:06 pm
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Re: Theft at gunpoint. Not at night in Texas.

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Originally Posted by SLTex
PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:...(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B)to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and ...
Just so nobody's misunderstood, "theft during the nighttime" does not include being robbed at gunpoint, even if at night.

Jeff
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post #47 of 66 Old Jun 23rd, 2012, 1:55 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

Hey some advice.
I am getting quite an education with this thread. An alderman (woman) not too long ago being attempted car jacked. What the Jack did not know was she was carrying legally. As I remember the IA called it a legal shoot. In our fair city, city council people are also constabulary of the law.
Easy way out is pray you get away safely and drop it in your insurance lap. Heck you might get a new bike and maybe a reward after he is caught and convicted. ride safe
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post #48 of 66 Old Jun 23rd, 2012, 5:48 am Thread Starter
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Re: Theft at gunpoint. Not at night in Texas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerj
Just so nobody's misunderstood, "theft during the nighttime" does not include being robbed at gunpoint, even if at night.
So if I have understood you correctly, and putting it into plain english, if someone breaks into you house carrying nothing more lethal than a flashlight, and you have a Magnum 500 hidden under your pillow, you are allowed to use it, no questions asked ?. ( except for asking how much a complete re-decoration of the room would cost )
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post #49 of 66 Old Jun 23rd, 2012, 6:00 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint. Not at night in Texas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
So if I have understood you correctly, and putting it into plain english, if someone breaks into you house carrying nothing more lethal than a flashlight, and you have a Magnum 500 hidden under your pillow, you are allowed to use it, no questions asked ?. ( except for asking how much a complete re-decoration of the room would cost )
Your last remark is funny, however, what Texas law is stating, and I was trying to clarify, is theft during daytime does not allow for using the "Magnum 500 hidden under your pillow", but to use your analogy, at night, the homeowner wouldn't know for certain if that "flashlight" wasn't attached to the end of a firearm for the perpetrator to better see you and kill you or take your prize LT in the garage! Doesn't matter.

The law was smart enough to understand the limitations of the human mind to make quick rational decisions, especially immediately after been awaken from a slumber sleep, and the legislators were obviously smarter than any interior decorator stupid enough to show up in the middle of the night unannounced to give an estimate, thereby giving the homeowner/property owner the benefit of the doubt.

Jeff
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post #50 of 66 Old Jun 23rd, 2012, 8:24 am
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Re: Theft at gunpoint

This is a question to all you guys that say you would shoot.
Is that just the testosterone behind the gun talking or would you really take someones life.

I am thinking that in reality that gun is only making you FEEL safe.

My 2 cents worth

Eric von Laue

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1100 Honda Magna
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