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post #1 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 6:28 am Thread Starter
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Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

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post #2 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 7:27 am
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

...... so if it had to start, what was before the start?

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post #3 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 9:31 am
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

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Originally Posted by DanDiver
...... so if it had to start, what was before the start?
Dan, the scientific community views the beginning of the universe very similarly to the beginning of life. Since there is a void of information any hypothesis is worthy of discussion with one exception. To separate themselves from religion, they have excluded discussion of a supreme being of any type. While this may seem harmless, it closes an avenue of investigation. It's a mystery! Every avenue should be explored.

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post #4 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 11:44 am
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Yes, every avenue should be investigated in the search for verifiable truth. Science comes up with a hypothesis based on known conditions and then attempts to prove or disprove that hypothesis with standardized, repeatable testing. Sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they get it wrong, but every time we learn a little bit more about the world around us in a solid, repeatable, verifiable way.

Religion is discounted because there is no search for verifiable proof. There is just belief, and you can't prove or disprove belief. That's fine, if you want to believe in something unprovable, but it doesn't make it truth, no matter how much you may believe in it.

Find some sort of solid proof of a supreme being, any sort of proof at all, and we can talk. Or come up with a reasonable, repeatable test based on previously known and verifiable facts and then we might have something to discuss. But "It must be that way because the universe is so complex" or "They wrote it down in an ancient scroll" still falls under belief, and thus provides no factual content whatsoever.

As to the original article, it's an interesting theory, but like all theories about the ultimate origin of the universe we're simply not in a position to be able to see enough to understand what's really going on.

To paraphrase Douglas Adams, it's like asking a tea-leaf to explain the entire history of the East India Company . . .

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post #5 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 12:32 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Well I don't know about all that stuff, but I've been watching the scientific documentary on TV, call "The Big Bang Theory", and that all makes sense to me!!!!
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post #6 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 4:16 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Ken, I agree with your first two statements and then you jumped the shark. What's known is known. All else is assumption or faith. By definition, hypothesis is based on belief. Back to the original post and Dan's question. There appears to have been a beginning to this universe. What came before is unknown. We can arrive at an understanding either by exploring one possibility or by exploring them all. I chose all.

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post #7 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 4:39 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

That's what the Mayans were talking about... The universe is going to re-bang on December 21st or whatever day it is....

Well, it should be painless....

Here's to finding out the truth and becoming non existent in the same microsecond...




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post #8 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 5:38 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Well, duh. Everyone knows U(a) is mostly negative where 0.5 <= a <= 1.5. Only at higher values of a does U(a) become an asymptote.


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post #9 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 6:47 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyBob
What's known is known. All else is assumption or faith.
True, but the problem occurs when people confuse faith with fact. They are not equal.

A hypothesis is based on what is already known, and attempts to expand that knowledge further. And it is something that is able to be tested in repeatable, verifiable ways.

Faith is just belief, nothing more. It cannot be tested, therefore it cannot be proven. It simply is what it is.

For some folks, that's enough. But again, that doesn't make it true.

The original article postulates that there must be a beginning to the universe, based on some mathematical models. That doesn't make it true, it just makes it an interesting hypothesis. Until it can be tested and verified, it is no more true than any other unproven hypothesis or belief.

Mankind is naturally curious about himself and his surroundings, which is a good thing. But some things, we simply aren't in a position to know. So you either accept that, or you make up a likely-sounding story about it, or you keep searching . . .

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post #10 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 7:16 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Benny, I think you were assuming that I was relying on something non scientific. That wasn't the case.

I was only saying that if there is a beginning, what is behind the beginning? It really rhetorical because I don't think we will ever get the answer in my lifetime. It really hurts to think to hard about it.

To me, it is like one of those infinite loops. There is no start or finish, it just goes...... but then, there still has to be something behind the start! and there we go again.... The big bang seems to make the most sense, but then, what was there before the big bang?

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post #11 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 7:54 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Maybe it wasn't one big bang, but a never-ending series of expansions and contractions.

But you're right, we'll just never know.

Might as well ask a starfish what started the waves . . .

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post #12 of 13 Old Apr 25th, 2012, 8:22 pm
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

"but then, what was there before the big bang?"

That, and WHO lit the fuse?
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post #13 of 13 Old Apr 26th, 2012, 8:42 am
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Re: Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver
Benny, I think you were assuming that I was relying on something non scientific. That wasn't the case.

I was only saying that if there is a beginning, what is behind the beginning? It really rhetorical because I don't think we will ever get the answer in my lifetime. It really hurts to think to hard about it.

To me, it is like one of those infinite loops. There is no start or finish, it just goes...... but then, there still has to be something behind the start! and there we go again.... The big bang seems to make the most sense, but then, what was there before the big bang?
Sorry if I read too much into your post, Dan.
Ken, since a line is a circle of infinite radius, having an event on the timeline that creates something (universe, life, solar system, etc.) makes the timeline for that entity a ray. Over history may things that were thought to be infinite have been determined to have a beginning and, in some cases, an end. I personally think it's cool to explore the possibilities and consider any potential explanation, no matter how remote.

My point (erroneously in support of Dan ) was that when we close our minds to any possible explanation, we do ourselves a scientific disservice.

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