Iraq bound to "fail", no matter what. - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 4:11 pm Thread Starter
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Iraq bound to "fail", no matter what.

Well,

Seeing the Sunni/Shiite factions on the brink of civil war (civil?), it is pretty evident that most of us have been correct about one thing, even if we have disagreed on others. That part of the world is likely NEVER to be a non war-torn area, period.

No matter whether we were "right" or "wrong" to go into that mess, maybe it is time to start pulling out regardless and let those idiots fight to the last person, then declare it either Shiite or Sunni, depending on who that last person standing is.

No one is going to civilize the uncivilized when they don't want it themselves.

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post #2 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 4:25 pm
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As a dyed-in-the-wool far right winger (and no friend of Dubya, BTW), I was dead set against this war due to the theory of unintend consequences. This insurgency and the fighting between all these factions who have hated each other for hundreds of years is the unintended consequence we will endure for going into this country and trying to bring our brand of democracy to a people who don't want it.

Pack up, get out and let's go kick North Korea's ass like we should have done years ago. With the US Army's Big Red One in the lead!

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post #3 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 4:41 pm
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I have to agree with David. The history of this area has been continuous war and revolution interspersed with totalitarian rule. Whenever the US pulls the troops out, there will be some sort of uprising and a new totalitarian regime will take control.

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post #4 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 4:45 pm
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North Korea will collapse on its own now that China is not providing support. It will take a few years. I would prefer to see China (as the regional power) put the screws on North Korea instead of the US getting involved overtly.

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post #5 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 4:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daman858
As a dyed-in-the-wool far right winger (and no friend of Dubya, BTW), I was dead set against this war due to the theory of unintend consequences. This insurgency and the fighting between all these factions who have hated each other for hundreds of years is the unintended consequence we will endure for going into this country and trying to bring our brand of democracy to a people who don't want it.

Pack up, get out and let's go kick North Korea's ass like we should have done years ago. With the US Army's Big Red One in the lead!





I think you are a tree huggin' liberal, but are in denial... it's OK to admit it.

Really.

Just 'cause Lil' Kim wears heel lifts and poofs his hair to make him look taller is no excuse to kick his little red commie ass. The only problem I see with butt kickin' here is that Kalifornia will get to inhale the radioactive fumes first as they circle the globe. Hmmm, maybe that's not all bad...

That way we can get rid of Meese once and for all! We'll keep Shealey as probably one of only a dozen or so sane left coasters still alive...


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post #6 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 4:52 pm
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Airyzona is kind of close to Kalifornia and shares the same water source as SoCal. A little radioactive agent is something we can share.

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post #7 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 5:00 pm
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Originally Posted by rspyder
Airyzona is kind of close to Kalifornia and shares the same water source as SoCal. A little radioactive agent is something we can share.
Not me dood - never touch the stuff. I brush my teeth with Scotch!

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post #8 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 7:00 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Well,

Seeing the Sunni/Shiite factions on the brink of civil war (civil?), it is pretty evident that most of us have been correct about one thing, even if we have disagreed on others. That part of the world is likely NEVER to be a non war-torn area, period.

No matter whether we were "right" or "wrong" to go into that mess, maybe it is time to start pulling out regardless and let those idiots fight to the last person, then declare it either Shiite or Sunni, depending on who that last person standing is.

No one is going to civilize the uncivilized when they don't want it themselves.
Howdy Dave,

I respectfully disagree.

Recall the race riots in Watts in the 1960's? The government didn't just let the groups determine a winner. They worked the problem until it subsided. Even though there were extremist on both sides, white and black, that were "terrorizing" to try and provoke violence.

In Iraq, the "bad guys" are doing the predictable, they're terrorizing the population and provoking fearful responses. Fortunately the leaders of the Shiites are calling for peace and calm. The American trained Iraqi forces are enforcing a substantial curfew and it looks like things are settling down.

Our, the U.S., being the catalyst for a major religion's reformation (and that is really what the war is about) is not easy..... not for the faint of heart. It is hard and will take a long time. If it's less than 10 years, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

My opinion is that we are in fact winning. Others will point to some news report such as the mosque bombing and say "see, we're losing". My response is that if you look too hard at a single tree, you'll miss the forrest. Or, in another example, to try to predict what a companies stock will do in the long run by looking at a short period of movement.

Look at the facts:
-Hussien and his henchmen are out.
-All political positions in Iraq are democratically elected, or appointed by same.
-The infrastructure is making huge gains, well past the first Gulf War condition.
-The three sectarian groups are working to live together in freedom, instead of living under the brutal repression forced upon them by one of the three groups.

They have come a long way. They have a long way to go. I firmly believe it will be worth it for our children to finish this job.


.

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post #9 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 8:56 pm
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post #10 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 9:25 pm
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Bill,

You stated four facts. Where did these come from? AFAIK only one of those you mentioned is believable. The rest seem closer to yarns.
And OUR children now will have to finish the job? Hang on ... Lemme go ask my children first......

Respectfully,
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post #11 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 9:28 pm
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[QUOTE=RonKMiller]I think you are a tree huggin' liberal, but are in denial... it's OK to admit it.

Really.

Just 'cause Lil' Kim wears heel lifts and poofs his hair to make him look taller is no excuse to kick his little red commie ass. The only problem I see with butt kickin' here is that Kalifornia will get to inhale the radioactive fumes first as they circle the globe. Hmmm, maybe that's not all bad...

That way we can get rid of Meese once and for all! We'll keep Shealey as probably one of only a dozen or so sane left coasters still alive... [/QUOT

Hey Ron, please stop it!! I'm laughing so hard I'm cryin'...Been helluva' week here in the Tarheel state; thanks for the laughs!

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post #12 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 9:31 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
Howdy Dave,

I respectfully disagree.

Recall the race riots in Watts in the 1960's? The government didn't just let the groups determine a winner. They worked the problem until it subsided. Even though there were extremist on both sides, white and black, that were "terrorizing" to try and provoke violence.

In Iraq, the "bad guys" are doing the predictable, they're terrorizing the population and provoking fearful responses. Fortunately the leaders of the Shiites are calling for peace and calm. The American trained Iraqi forces are enforcing a substantial curfew and it looks like things are settling down.

Our, the U.S., being the catalyst for a major religion's reformation (and that is really what the war is about) is not easy..... not for the faint of heart. It is hard and will take a long time. If it's less than 10 years, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

My opinion is that we are in fact winning. Others will point to some news report such as the mosque bombing and say "see, we're losing". My response is that if you look too hard at a single tree, you'll miss the forrest. Or, in another example, to try to predict what a companies stock will do in the long run by looking at a short period of movement.

Look at the facts:
-Hussien and his henchmen are out.
-All political positions in Iraq are democratically elected, or appointed by same.
-The infrastructure is making huge gains, well past the first Gulf War condition.
-The three sectarian groups are working to live together in freedom, instead of living under the brutal repression forced upon them by one of the three groups.

They have come a long way. They have a long way to go. I firmly believe it will be worth it for our children to finish this job.


.
Thank you Bill for your thoughts...I concur.

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post #13 of 55 Old Feb 24th, 2006, 10:25 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
Howdy Dave,

----------------------------
My opinion is that we are in fact winning. Others will point to some news report such as the mosque bombing and say "see, we're losing". My response is that if you look too hard at a single tree, you'll miss the forrest. Or, in another example, to try to predict what a companies stock will do in the long run by looking at a short period of movement.

Look at the facts:
-Hussien and his henchmen are out.
-All political positions in Iraq are democratically elected, or appointed by same.
-The infrastructure is making huge gains, well past the first Gulf War condition.
-The three sectarian groups are working to live together in freedom, instead of living under the brutal repression forced upon them by one of the three groups.

They have come a long way. They have a long way to go. I firmly believe it will be worth it for our children to finish this job.


.
Believe me, I have been on the side of thinking we were doing right for the most part, and I fervently hope that it does eventually work out for the better. Lately though it is becoming hard to believe the people in that country as a whole will ever ALLOW it to work, even if a majority of them believe democracy would be in their best interest.

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post #14 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 2:02 am
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Let's look to the Israelis and the Palestinians for a model of what we can expect. Although completely different circumstances, it's the same theology behind the conflict. We can also compare it to the situation like the Brits found themselves in with Northern Ireland. Although more civilized, religion fueled their fight Ask any Brit soldier and they'll tell you that Ireland has been a nightmare for them for a couple decades. Billy hit the nail on the head with his comments, but, for those very same 4 observations he listed is why we should start pulling out. We've done the heavy lifting...if they don't shoulder most of this weight now, they'll never appreciate what they have or how they got there. "Teach a man to fish or give a man a fish..." We've given them everything they need to fish for themselves now. Let them take those vast oil revenues and rebuild they're own country from here on out. There's alot to be said for pride in ownership!

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post #15 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 2:21 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFlake
Bill,

You stated four facts. Where did these come from? AFAIK only one of those you mentioned is believable. The rest seem closer to yarns.
And OUR children now will have to finish the job? Hang on ... Lemme go ask my children first......

Respectfully,
Ramon
Howdy Ramon,

The first item, Saddam Hussien and his henchmen are out of power, is a fact.
The second item, that all political positions are now democratically elected or appointed by same, is well covered and reported including the major news media.
The third item, that the infrastructure is making huge gains, well past the first Gulf War condition, is a determination that is based on reviewing various reports. I believe this website provides facts without much "spin". On the far right side of the web page there are updates on activities.
The fourth item, the three sectarian groups are working to live together in freedom, instead of living under the brutal repression forced upon them by one of the three groups, is based on reports from the major news organizations. While it is a debateable point, from what I've been able to cull from the reports it is accurate.


This effort in Iraq reminds me of Viet Nam. When the North Vietnamese launched the Tet offensive, the U.S. won every single battle and completely turned back the NVA. Historical records show that Ho Chi Min understood that they had been beaten and was preparing to negotiate a truce. In the mean time, he received reports that the American news organizations were portraying the battles as a "loss" for the Americans, he chose to continue without negotiating.

In short, we will only lose in Iraq if we quit. We have made huge gains in the region and come a long way in Iraq, too far to give it all up.


.

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post #16 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 2:39 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPNorton
....We've done the heavy lifting...if they don't shoulder most of this weight now, they'll never appreciate what they have or how they got there....
Howdy Wayne,

I agree that we've done the "heavy lifting". I also believe that we are standing down and letting the Iraqis step up. We can argue about how fast, or slow this shift should take place, but I would defer to the leadership on that.

Bear in mind that Iraqis are being killed by terrorists at 10 times the U.S. rate. They are paying a high price to "learn how to fish" and I don't think we should walk away until it is very clear that they will succeed in the effort.


.


.

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post #17 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 3:15 am
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post #18 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 6:29 am
 
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Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
This effort in Iraq reminds me of Viet Nam. When the North Vietnamese launched the Tet offensive, the U.S. won every single battle and completely turned back the NVA. Historical records show that Ho Chi Min understood that they had been beaten and was preparing to negotiate a truce. In the mean time, he received reports that the American news organizations were portraying the battles as a "loss" for the Americans, he chose to continue without negotiating.
In short, we will only lose in Iraq if we quit. We have made huge gains in the region and come a long way in Iraq, too far to give it all up.
Billy,
Several great posts. I agree with you completely. Nothing worth having is easy and we are winning the war!
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post #19 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 6:56 am
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Commin' in from right field...

As opposed to 'left' field... It would be interesting to find out exactly who has been bombing the mosques? It may be that Iranian/Syrian/other infiltrators have been setting the bombs to cause a civil war. I'm sure that outside influences are at work here as are the US troops who are trying to succeed in helping those who are unable (at this point) to help themselves.

As for the analogy of Israel/Palestine or even Ireland; the theology of Jew vs Muslim or Christian Vs Protestant may be misplaced. I believe this is Muslim vs Muslim (and the rest of the world) situation, am I out in right field here??

More food for thought.

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post #20 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 9:08 am
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Iraqi Army assumes battle space responsibility in central Baghdad
By Pfc. Jason Dangel
February 24, 2006


BAGHDAD – (Army News Service, Feb. 24, 2006) – The 5th Brigade, 6th Iraqi Army Division, assumed responsibility for areas in central and southern Baghdad during a battle space transfer of authority ceremony from 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, at Forward Operating Base Honor Feb. 20.

The ceremony took place after many months of training and combined missions between the two units, in which the Soldiers of the 4th BCT assisted the soldiers of 5th Brigade in preparation to assume the battle space inside and around the International Zone.

Col. Mohammed Wasif, 5th Bde. commander took the reins from
Col. Michael Beech, 4th BCT commander, as 5th Bde. became the latest Iraqi unit to gain control of its own area of responsibility.

“This brigade has trained hard, and we are ready for the mission,” Wasif said to the crowd of spectators. “We promised God and the government that we would remain loyal soldiers, and continue to defend the borders of this country.”

“This event sends a clear message to those who wish to disrupt or doubt the future success of Iraq,” Beech added. “As our combined forces continue to grow, we will follow the Iraqi lead as they continue to keep the pressure on the enemies of a free Iraq.”

Iraqi soldiers of the 5th Iraqi Bde. have been operating independently for months with little or no assistance from 4th BCT, Beech said, and as they take the lead in operations in central and southern Baghdad, both units will continue to work together.

“Our mission remains the same,” noted Beech. “We are proud to continue combined operations as Allies and to support the success of the 5th brigade.”

Currently, the 6th Iraqi Division is responsible for all the battle space in Baghdad. The 5th Brigade’s area of operations covers approximately 50 square kilometers of the city.

The brigade’s three battalions will operate inside the International Zone and the Karradah Peninsula. Iraqi security forces will be responsible for running various checkpoints in the area of operations.

“The responsibility of our Army is to protect this country and it’s people,” said Maj. Gen. Mubdar Hatim Hazya Al-Duleimi, commanding general, 6th IAD, “and because of the bravery of our Armed Forces that sacrifice themselves on a daily basis, the amount of insurgent activity will continue to decrease.”

(Editor’s note: Pfc. Jason Dangel serves with 4th BCT PAO, 4ID.)




Just to let you know that things are progressing in a positive manner in Iraq. I haven't seen this reported on the Major networks yet (probably won't be since it's a positive development).

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post #21 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 9:28 am
 
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Just to let you know that things are progressing in a positive manner in Iraq. I haven't seen this reported on the Major networks yet (probably won't be since it's a positive development).
Matt,
Thanks for sharing. It is a shame, but your comment above is spot on. The following is a little dated (Nov05), but compliments your words very well:

"The good news from Iraq is not fit to print
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | November 2, 2005

WHAT WAS the most important news out of Iraq last week?

That depends on what you consider ''important." Do you see the war against radical Islam and Ba'athist fascism as the most urgent conflict of our time? Do you believe that replacing tyranny with democratic self-government is ultimately the only antidote to the poison that has made the Middle East so dangerous and violent? If so, you'll have no trouble identifying the most significant development in Iraq last week: the landslide victory of the new Iraqi Constitution.

The announcement on Oct. 25 that the first genuinely democratic national charter in Arab history had been approved by 79 percent of Iraqis was a major piece of good news. It confirmed the courage of Iraq's people and their hunger for freedom and decent governance. It advanced the US campaign to democratize a country that for 25 years had been misruled by a mass-murdering sociopath. It underscored the decision by Iraq's Sunnis, who had boycotted the parliamentary elections in January, to pursue their goals through ballots, not bullets. And it dealt a humiliating blow to the bombers and beheaders -- to the likes of Islamist butcher Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who earlier this year declared ''a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy" and threatened to kill anyone who took part in the elections.

No question: If you think that defeating Islamofascism, extending liberty, and transforming the Middle East are important, it's safe to say you saw the ratification of the new constitution as the Iraqi news story of the week.

But that isn't how the mainstream media saw it.

Consider The Washington Post. On the morning after the results of the Iraqi referendum were announced, the Post's front page was dominated by a photograph, stretched across four columns, of three daughters at the funeral of their father, Lieutenant Colonel Leon James II, who had died from injuries suffered during a Sept. 26 bombing in Baghdad. Two accompanying stories, both above the fold, were headlined ''Military Has Lost 2,000 in Iraq" and 'Bigger, Stronger, Homemade Bombs Now to Blame for Half of US Deaths." A nearby graphic -- ''The Toll" -- divided the 2,000 deaths by type of military service -- active duty, National Guard, and Reserves.

From Page 1, the stories jumped to a two-page spread inside, where they were illustrated with more photographs, a series of drawings depicting roadside attacks, and a large US map showing where each fallen soldier was from. On a third inside page, meanwhile, another story was headlined ''2,000th Death Marked by Silence and a Vow." It began: ''Washington marked the 2,000th American fatality of the Iraq war with a moment of silence in the Senate, the reading of the names of the fallen from the House floor, new protests, and a solemn vow from President Bush not to 'rest or tire until the war on terror is won.' " Two photos appeared alongside, one of Bush and another of antiwar protester Cindy Sheehan. And to give the body count a local focus, there was yet another story (''War's Toll Leaves Baltimore in Mourning") plus four pictures of troops killed in Iraq.

The Post didn't ignore the Iraqi election results. A story appeared on Page A13 (''Sunnis Failed to Defeat Iraq Constitution"), along with a map breaking down the vote by province. But like other leading newspapers, including The New York Times, The Boston Globe, and the Los Angeles Times, it devoted vastly more attention to the 2,000-death ''milestone," a statistic with no unique significance apart from the fact that it ends in round numbers.

Every death in Iraq is heartbreaking. The 2,000th fatality was neither more nor less meaningful than the 1,999 that preceded it. But if anything makes the death toll remarkable, it is how historically low it is. Considering what the war has accomplished so far -- the destruction of the region's bloodiest dictatorship, the liberation of 25 million Iraqis, the emergence of democratic politics, the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, the abandonment by Libya of its nuclear weapons program -- it is hard to disagree with Norman Podhoretz, who notes in the current Commentary that these achievements have been ''purchased at an astonishingly low cost in American blood when measured by the standards of every other war we have ever fought."

But that isn't a message Big Media cares to emphasize. Hostile to the war and to the administration conducting it, the nation's leading news outlets harp on the negative and pessimistic, consistently underplaying all that is going right in Iraq. Their fixation on the number of troops who have died outweighs their interest in the cause for which those fallen heroes fought -- a cause that advanced with the ratification of the new constitution.

Poll after poll confirms the public's low level of confidence in mainstream media news. Gallup recently measured that confidence at 28 percent, an all-time low. Why such mistrust? The media's slanted coverage of Iraq provides a pretty good clue."
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post #22 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 9:47 am
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And More.




Soldiers unearth 15 caches near Kirkuk
February 21, 2006


KIRKUK, Iraq (Army News Service, Feb. 21, 2006) – Iraqi and U.S. Soldiers combined efforts Monday, capturing four known insurgents and unearthing a network of 15 weapons caches during a combined operation west of Kirkuk.

The operation began with an Iraqi-led cordon and search of a village known to be a safe haven for insurgent and terrorist cells responsible for attacks on oil pipelines and coalition convoys in the area.

With troops from the 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division providing security outside the village and U.S. aircraft overhead, soldiers of the 2nd Iraqi Army Brigade moved in. Their door-to-door search quickly led to the capture of the four insurgents.

While the search was taking place on the ground, one of the pilots circling overhead noticed a large shiny object on the ground outside the town.

Once the sweep of the village was complete, 101st Airborne Soldiers took the lead in investigating the object which turned out to be a sheet of tin covering a weapons cache. Further investigations of the area revealed a network of 15 caches containing a variety of weapons systems and explosives, as well as a variety of materials used to make improvised explosive devices.

Materials uncovered included:

 1 complete surface to air missile system

 450 mortar rounds

 12 rockets

 11 complete mortar systems

 31 rocket propelled grenade (RPG) launchers

 70 rocket propelled grenades

 30 grenades

 14 machine guns

 16 sniper rifles

 More than 190 fuses

 Tens of thousands of rounds of small arms ammunition

 Multiple weapons parts, including scopes

 75 pounds of propellant

 Timers and parts used in making improvised explosive devices (IED’s)

 1 gas mask

(Editor’s note: Information provided by the 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) at Forward Operating Base Warrior in Kirkuk, Iraq.)

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And More.

Soldiers unearth 15 caches near Kirkuk
February 21, 2006
That is huge! I hadn't seen that report. Thanks.
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post #24 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 10:00 am
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And to begin to address the infrastructure issue:




4th BCT engineers rebuild Baghdad’s infrastructure
By Staff Sgt. Brent Williams
February 17, 2006


BAGHDAD (Army News Service, Feb. 17, 2006) – Responsible for the rebuilding of Baghdad’s infrastructure – restoration and improvement of electricity, water, sewer and transportation systems, members of the 4th Brigade Combat Team Infrastructure Coordination Element – known as ICE – have their work cut out for them.

It’s a daunting task that requires support from the Iraqi government, several U.S. governmental agencies and non-governmental organizations, reconstruction efforts are one of the many missions facing the 4th BCT, 4th Infantry Division.

“We bridge the gap by developing relationships not only with the Iraqis to gain their priorities – that is really where we are trying to focus – but also with the (Iraqi) state department (ministers) who are currently standing up,” said Maj. Ray Proske, executive officer, 4th Special Troops Battalion, 4th BCT,

The coordination cell works with local leaders within the communities and neighborhoods to identify and service their particular needs – working to coordinate the repair of Iraqi essential services within the brigade’s prescribed area of operations.

“Each of the different areas has its unique challenges,” Proske added. “One thing to keep in mind is that most of the infrastructure in this country was built more than 20 years ago and has been very poorly maintained.”

The problem is also complicated by numerous unauthorized taps on the city’s water and electrical systems, further draining an already depleted infrastructure, said Proske.

This will only be resolved once the city begins to regulate the services it provides to the people living in Baghdad, he added.

The biggest task before the four-man team, which is responsible for overseeing special reconstruction projects in central and south Baghdad, is working with the local Iraqi governance to ensure that the planning, upkeep and improvement of city systems happens as efficiently as possible.

“The engineers are trying to overcome this challenge by hiring local Iraqi engineers to maintain and supervise the many ongoing projects and to assist in quality assurance, thus ensuring the contractors are providing an adequate product,” Proske added. “Though the staff is small, local Iraqi engineers are vital to operations for the ICE.”

Currently, the program has one local consultant-engineer, an Iraqi man named Thamer, who wears many hats.

Thamer, a 46-year old electrical engineer, is responsible for identifying all scopes of work within the communities and coordinating the execution of each project through the different government agencies.

“After identification, we bid for those projects. We call contractors and give them the bids to submit at those prices,” Thamer said. “We analyze prices and compare that with the quantity to see if it is reasonable or not.”

Thamer, who earned his master’s in engineering from the University of Birmingham, United Kingdom, also manages several Iraqi site engineers who supervise the local contractors to ensure the quality of work and timeliness of project completion.

Once a project is finished, the ICE maintains contacts with two district advisory councils within the brigade’s battle space as well as the Iraqi government to ensure the completed work meets the population’s needs.

“Our goal is to give a very good project to serve the people,” Thamer said. “We are in constant contact with the departments and the employees within the district council in order to coordinate with the contractors.”

Capt. Robert Graetz who serves as the sewers project manager, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 4th STB, said he hopes that the projects being completed now will eventually lay the groundwork for larger construction projects that will increase the capabilities of the current systems.

As the civil engineers work to improve living conditions for the communities they are also working to help the Iraqi people become self-sufficient.

“Instead of throwing a lot of money into project after project, our solution is to invest that money into the city government to prop up their operating budget so that they can do it themselves,” said Graetz.

Graetz, a West Point graduate with a master’s from the University of Missouri said one way the Army is accomplishing this goal is by providing equipment, training and technical expertise to the maintenance departments and the local communities within the districts.

Most of the projects that began during 4th BCT’s deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom will take some time to complete. In fact, many of the end effects of the projects will not be seen until after 4th BCT has completed its mission and redeployed.

(Staff Sgt. Brent Williams serves with the 4th BCT PAO, 4th Inf. Div.)

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That is huge! I hadn't seen that report. Thanks.

Hey Ray,

I'm getting this from the Army Knowledge Online (AKO) site. I don't know if the Navy has an equivalent site or it you can get an account yourself. Hope your shore time goes well. Thanks for being out there.

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post #26 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 10:09 am
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My thoughts here . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksailor
As for the analogy of Israel/Palestine or even Ireland; the theology of Jew vs Muslim or Christian Vs Protestant may be misplaced. I believe this is Muslim vs Muslim (and the rest of the world) situation, am I out in right field here??

More food for thought.
Israel/Palestine is Jew vs Muslim thing and is a family feud that has been going on for over 4500 years.. IF you use the Bible as the source, the problem has been going on since 2500 B.C. when Abraham had two sons Issac and Ishmael. One was given the father's inheritance and the other wasn't. Both Mulsim and Jew claim Father Abraham in their family ancestory.

England vs Northern Ireland was Protestant vs Catholic, a uneasy process between two divisions of the Christian faith. Early on there were wars between countries over the Catholic and Protestant faiths. That settled down. Northern Ireland has been the Protestants demanding their way over the Catholics. It seems that things have settled down there a bit as of late.

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post #27 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 10:28 am
 
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Regardless of whether we should be in Iraq or not - we have to complete what was started and in a favorable position for the US. If we do not our name will be mud and we will lose what respect we have left. In a favorable closure we will gain our respect and then some ! also we will again be in a position to negotiate future situations, which could be enough to prevent similar situations. Without a favorable outcome, our word and position of power are moot.
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[QUOTE=Steve_R]Israel/Palestine is Jew vs Muslim thing and is a family feud that has been going on for over 4500 years.. IF you use the Bible as the source, the problem has been going on since 2500 B.C. when Abraham had two sons Issac and Ishmael. One was given the father's inheritance and the other wasn't. Both Mulsim and Jew claim Father Abraham in their family ancestory. [/QUOTE=Steve_R]


Thanks Steve; Was unaware of Muslim geneology. Very interesting. Very familiar with Christian heretige.

There is more here for me to sink my teeth into.

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post #29 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 7:35 pm
 
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iraq may end up in better shape than before. but it most likely will not. it will, in the end, be ruled either by a tyrant or a fundamentalist cleric. it will revert to a dictatorship or fundamentalist islam. almost without doubt. the culture understands one or the other.

when it does it seems doubtful that we will be better off. after all the lives lost and all the billions of dollars spent ... back to square one.

it's not rocket science.

i don't know about you, but i am sick and tired of being the world's policeman and their cultural guide. people will take ownership of their future or they won't. they'll demand democracy or they won't. it is not something we can change.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
iraq may end up in better shape than before. but it most likely will not. it will, in the end, be ruled either by a tyrant or a fundamentalist cleric. it will revert to a dictatorship or fundamentalist islam. almost without doubt. the culture understands one or the other.

when it does it seems doubtful that we will be better off. after all the lives lost and all the billions of dollars spent ... back to square one.

it's not rocket science.

i don't know about you, but i am sick and tired of being the world's policeman and their cultural guide. people will take ownership of their future or they won't. they'll demand democracy or they won't. it is not something we can change.
I agree, the whole thing is a mess and we should have never been there in the first place. Now we have to fix it and hope for a favorable outcome for the US, so our children will have the respect they deserve. Unfortunately the politicians know that this is what most Americans want (a favorable outcome) and are playing that hand right now, to keep the war moving. Our children may die in this fiasco, all for a politicians desire to stay in office. Lets Kick their ass, get the hell out and hopefully have more sense the next time. Maybe we can sneek out and still save face, don't know - then let the bastards cut each others heads off.
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post #31 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 11:02 pm
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Steve
England vs Northern Ireland was Protestant vs Catholic, a uneasy process between two divisions of the Christian faith. Early on there were wars between countries over the Catholic and Protestant faiths. That settled down. Northern Ireland has been the Protestants demanding their way over the Catholics. It seems that things have settled down there a bit as of late.

Steve,

I have spent most of my life dealing daily with this issue first hand. By living in and observing the violence first hand one gets a different perspective. Additionally, I have spent the last 30 plus years studying six county problem in Northern Ireland .

In retrospect I must disagree with your ideas of what is going on there. Unfortunately, your post reiterates what the mainstream American media propagate. Your post stereotypes simplifies and reduces the significance of 500 hundred years of militant struggle to the lowest common denominator. Please, if you wish to demean the Northern Ireland issue by simplifying it to a Protestant Catholic conflict at least cite an, American media, short sound bite news, resource to cover your comments.
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post #32 of 55 Old Feb 25th, 2006, 11:24 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
....i don't know about you, but i am sick and tired of being the world's policeman and their cultural guide. people will take ownership of their future or they won't. they'll demand democracy or they won't. it is not something we can change.
Howdy Gerhard,

Funny you should say that you're sick and tired of the World's Policeman job; Osama Bin Laden would love to be "the world's policeman and their cultural guide."

Of course, under his "guideance" we lost roughly 3,000 civilians on 9/11 under his version of Islamic fundamentalists.

Like it, or not (and I like it), we are the World's Policeman. For whatever reason, the chain of events in this world have led to this reality, the United States is charged with the awesome responsibility of being the most powerful force in the world by a factor of 10. I personally do not want to abdicate that position and allow other countries to adopt that role. I used to practice "duck and cover" growing up and I will pay a high price to avoid going back to those days.

We must step up and deal with the "EXTREMIST" Islamic fanaticism and facilitate the reformation of the third major religious faith. The Christians and Jews have had their reformations and it is time for Islam to go through theirs.


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post #33 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 12:17 am
 
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Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
Howdy Gerhard,

Funny you should say that you're sick and tired of the World's Policeman job; Osama Bin Laden would love to be "the world's policeman and their cultural guide."

Of course, under his "guideance" we lost roughly 3,000 civilians on 9/11 under his version of Islamic fundamentalists.

Like it, or not (and I like it), we are the World's Policeman. For whatever reason, the chain of events in this world have led to this reality, the United States is charged with the awesome responsibility of being the most powerful force in the world by a factor of 10. I personally do not want to abdicate that position and allow other countries to adopt that role. I used to practice "duck and cover" growing up and I will pay a high price to avoid going back to those days.

We must step up and deal with the "EXTREMIST" Islamic fanaticism and facilitate the reformation of the third major religious faith. The Christians and Jews have had their reformations and it is time for Islam to go through theirs.


.
c'mon, billy, you know darn well i support going after osama, the mass murderer of our people. i've said it easily a dozen times. i wish we'd take some of the assets we have in iraq and use them to nail him. why we don't is a mystery.

and, no, i don't buy the argument that it would be impossible.
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post #34 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 12:36 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
Israel/Palestine is Jew vs Muslim thing and is a family feud that has been going on for over 4500 years.. IF you use the Bible as the source, the problem has been going on since 2500 B.C. when Abraham had two sons Issac and Ishmael. One was given the father's inheritance and the other wasn't. Both Mulsim and Jew claim Father Abraham in their family ancestory. ...
Howdy Steve,

I would only add that the Old Testament (Torah) refers to the offspring (Ishmael) begotten of the servant as Arabs, not Muslims. Islam did not come into being until the 8th Century A.D., though the claim within the Koran as being since the beginning of time.

The "inheritance", in my opinion, is the claim to being God's "chosen" people. Jesus Christ usurping Isaac and the Jews as the chosen. Muhammad usurping "all that came before" as the true voice of God...Allah. Regardless, it is a matter of faith and to each "believer" may they find peace and harmony in their faith.


.


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post #35 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 9:52 am
 
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I'm getting this from the Army Knowledge Online (AKO) site. I don't know if the Navy has an equivalent site or it you can get an account yourself.
Thank you Matt,
Navy does have an NKO Site but it doesn't provide any news. It is designed strictly for personal and professional growth, i.e. online military courses, college correspondence, leadership development, pay/benefits, etc....

For Navy/Defense news I tend to visit the following when I have the time, or when I'm at sea, the bandwidth:

http://www.defenselink.mil/
http://www.news.navy.mil/
http://www.navy.com/sitesofinterest/
http://www.mediacen.navy.mil/

I visited the AKO Site and I can get a "Guest Account", but need an Army Sponsors "AKO Username". If your willing to sponsor me I would appreciate it, and you could PM me. To get a "Full Account" on AKO you have to be Army, Military Academy Cadet, ROTC Cadet and a few other cats/dogs. The application I would submit for the AKO Guest Account is here https://www.us.army.mil/suite/login/welcome.html
under "Register for AKO" then click "Create Guest Account" .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
c'mon, billy, you know darn well i support going after osama, the mass murderer of our people. i've said it easily a dozen times. i wish we'd take some of the assets we have in iraq and use them to nail him. why we don't is a mystery.

and, no, i don't buy the argument that it would be impossible.
Just what do you think would happen if we did kill him? Do you think it all would end, and we could be happy ever after? Fat Chance. I don't think anything would change at all, and we wouuld have pulled forces and spent a lot of time and money to "get" one person, who would be replaced by another leader just as bad, with maybe less money.

I agree fully with Billy on this one. Better us than just let the cancer keep spreading at it's will.

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post #37 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 11:59 am
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Finding OSB

I Tire of the continuing ( not on this list but TV ) rant of "why can't we find the tallest man in Afganastan" ( he may not be in Afganastan he may be running a 7-11 in Utah ) I digress .

OK History buffs : how long did it take every Police Sherrif Marshal Fbi ATF Secret service and every news person in the US to find one tall Girl named Patty Herst?

She made statments robbed Banks ( well maybe) and moved freely about the country.WE had her picture we had her Finger prints, her DNA ( but we did not know what to do with that -then) But find her? NO And she did it IN this country not some deasert pocked marked with caves and no roads to speek of where all the people surrounding her(HIM) hate us and located thousands of miles away.

Our troops over there are like a Moose trying to sneek up on a herd of sheep

" hey BAAAABara dont look now but there's a Moose!"

Like crime here we will find him when someone gives him up.

Thanks now if I could get 5 minn of air time to vent
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post #38 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 12:55 pm
 
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Pessimism, Fear or No Faith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
iraq may end up in better shape than before. but it most likely will not. it will, in the end, be ruled either by a tyrant or a fundamentalist cleric. it will revert to a dictatorship or fundamentalist islam. almost without doubt. the culture understands one or the other.

when it does it seems doubtful that we will be better off. after all the lives lost and all the billions of dollars spent ... back to square one.

it's not rocket science.

i don't know about you, but i am sick and tired of being the world's policeman and their cultural guide. people will take ownership of their future or they won't. they'll demand democracy or they won't. it is not something we can change.
Gerhard,
Come on, you can't be that pessimistic? It's our responsibility and promise to lead and assist Iraq, Afghanistan, Liberia, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc. etc., to Freedom and Democracy.

Maybe a brief reflection of the USA's Charters of Freedom and words from our Founding Fathers is in order.

Thomas Jefferson to John Adams in 1821:
"The flames kindled on the Fourth of July, 1776, have spread
over too much of the globe to be extinguished by the feeble engines of despotism; on the contrary, they will consume these engines and all who work them."

From our National Archives: http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...ence/charters/

"From the earliest days of the Republic, this nation's Founders believed that the United States had a special mission in the world. George Washington spoke of it on April 30, 1789, moments after taking the oath of office as first President of the United States. "The preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of Government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people." The success of their experiment, these early Americans hoped, would hasten the spread of liberty around the globe.

In the first century following the Declaration of Independence, movements in France, Belgium, Poland, Norway, Switzerland, as well as in Venezuela, Mexico, and Argentina drew both inspiration and practical lessons from the American Revolution and its landmark documents. During the nineteenth century, the adoption of written constitutions often accompanied changes in governments in Europe and Latin America.

In 1917, there were approximately a dozen democracies in the world. Today, there are more than one hundred, and most of them have written constitutions. While the charters of many of these nations vary greatly from the U.S. Constitution, its endurance and stability has surely lent encouragement and credibility to the cause of freedom-loving people everywhere who have labored to throw off tyrannical regimes and devise for themselves a system of self-determination and government based on the consent of the governed."
************************************************** *****

We are "Global Policeman" for Democracy and Freedom. That is what makes us Americans and the essence of our commitment to Freedom and Democracy. I'm curious what your position on the Cold War was. Should we have thrown the towel in on that one?? Would Berlin remain divided if the American position was something like; "Communism is just too big and too hard, the Cold War is too costly and breaking our country's back, lets just give up" ??
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post #39 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 2:47 pm
 
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Just what do you think would happen if we did kill him? Do you think it all would end, and we could be happy ever after? Fat Chance. I don't think anything would change at all, and we wouuld have pulled forces and spent a lot of time and money to "get" one person, who would be replaced by another leader just as bad, with maybe less money.

I agree fully with Billy on this one. Better us than just let the cancer keep spreading at it's will.
you have misunderstood. i think we should kill him because he deserves to die. slowly. painfully.

will it eliminate terrorism? hell no. but shouldn't we focus all those military resources on defending our borders and ports? instead of mounting failed occupations in countries that don't want us?
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post #40 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 2:58 pm
 
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Originally Posted by Portguyofva
We are "Global Policeman" for Democracy and Freedom. That is what makes us Americans and the essence of our commitment to Freedom and Democracy. I'm curious what your position on the Cold War was. Should we have thrown the towel in on that one?? Would Berlin remain divided if the American position was something like; "Communism is just too big and too hard, the Cold War is too costly and breaking our country's back, lets just give up" ??
here is an idea. let's put it to a vote. we live in a democracy, after all, despite the recent erosion of our rights to privacy and due process. let's see exactly how many americans favor that kind of colonialism.

i think the consequences of it are becoming clear to the average voter, and i suspect someone running on a platform of LESS expansionism rather than more can gain some serious traction, come election time. and i will further bet that we will have some candidates who run on exactly that platform.

let's see what happens.
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post #41 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 4:44 pm
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I believe we live in a democratic republic, for good reason.

Colonialism? Expansionism? Give me a break.

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post #42 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 4:49 pm
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If we are going to take responsibility to push freedom on the rest of the world, then we have a major job to do since most of the population of the world is not free.

We are not and should not be the world police. As a country we have a rather poor showing as the carrier of freedom as we have put a number of dictators in power and brought down governments where the people did have freedom (but elected the wrong kind of freedom).
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post #43 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 5:04 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
I believe we live in a democratic republic, for good reason.

Colonialism? Expansionism? Give me a break.
Main Entry: co·lo·nial·ism
Pronunciation: k&-'lO-nE-&-"li-z&m, -ny&-"li-
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being colonial
2 : something characteristic of a colony
3 a : control by one power over a dependent area or people b : a policy advocating or based on such control
- co·lo·nial·ist /-list/ noun or adjective
- co·lo·nial·is·tic /-"lO-nE-&-'lis-tik, -ny&-'lis-/ adjective

source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

don't get caught up on patriotic jingoism. when one government ousts another to advance its own cause, then seeks to change it or control it, then it is what it is. you might argue that it is colonialism toward a positive end, but it is an argument that i think you'd lose.
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post #44 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 6:33 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rspyder
If we are going to take responsibility to push freedom on the rest of the world, then we have a major job to do since most of the population of the world is not free.
Roger,
"Major job" is right, and IMO worth the effort. Even today, in many places around the world, a person would be imprisoned, executed or worse for engaging in this lively discussion where we are free to share our opinions and ideals without repercussions or prejudice. Freedom is a wonderful thing and easily taken for granted when that is all we have known or experienced.
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post #45 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 7:47 pm
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Ray,
Take a close look at the map. "Freedom" is a European ancestry thing unless it was imposed by the US (Japan after ww2) or was a result of British colonization.

European ancestry is a minority of the world population. So you advocate pushing the minority opinion on the world?

BTW, according to the Freedom Map folks, the world was more free in 2000. Having a hard line Bush administration in office has triggered hard line stance in Iran, Russia, North Korea, etc.

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post #46 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 7:59 pm
 
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Ray,
You sure are spending a lot of time with us. Did you tear up the honey do list.

After 1917 the number of democracies increased significantly because the British Empire threw in the towel. Of course they screwed up a lot of the middle east also.

IMO, the group that reaches the most people with their propaganda (be it what we think is good or bad) will win at this point in time. 100 years from now ideas will change and whom ever communicates the best will win.

That said, I'm wondering if our communication method is working in Iraq?

Rick
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post #47 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 8:32 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portguyofva
Roger,
"Major job" is right, and IMO worth the effort. Even today, in many places around the world, a person would be imprisoned, executed or worse for engaging in this lively discussion where we are free to share our opinions and ideals without repercussions or prejudice. Freedom is a wonderful thing and easily taken for granted when that is all we have known or experienced.
i think i'd rather just focus on OUR freedom and let the rest of the world take care of itself. let's offer them incentives to fight for freedom and democracy, and let's support them when they strive for it.

but for heaven's sake, let's not force it on them if it's not what they want.

don't we have enough of our own problems to worry about?

Last edited by KBandit; Feb 26th, 2006 at 8:41 pm.
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post #48 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 9:03 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rspyder
Ray,
Take a close look at the map. "Freedom" is a European ancestry thing unless it was imposed by the US (Japan after ww2) or was a result of British colonization.

European ancestry is a minority of the world population. So you advocate pushing the minority opinion on the world?

BTW, according to the Freedom Map folks, the world was more free in 2000. Having a hard line Bush administration in office has triggered hard line stance in Iran, Russia, North Korea, etc.
Roger,
Freedom/Democracy growth rates are statistics I am admittedly not fluent in. More home work is in order for me, but on the surface without a closer review of the statistics I have to disagree. I've been under the impression (possibly wrong?) that the number of democracies globally have nearly doubled since the Cold War and that the greatest growth rates have been seen post 1985 time frame.
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post #49 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 9:17 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TandemCyclist
Ray,
You sure are spending a lot of time with us. Did you tear up the honey do list.

After 1917 the number of democracies increased significantly because the British Empire threw in the towel. Of course they screwed up a lot of the middle east also.

IMO, the group that reaches the most people with their propaganda (be it what we think is good or bad) will win at this point in time. 100 years from now ideas will change and whom ever communicates the best will win.

That said, I'm wondering if our communication method is working in Iraq?

Rick
Rick,
Honey do list has gone as far as it is going to go until next weekend. I did get through about 60% of it. Just found out last night that Navy is going to give me 2-3 weeks of additional education before I head off to my next assignment. Two weeks with wife just got cut to 1 week and I will be exercising the brain in a different direction starting at 0730 tomorrow.

For those that are tired of seeing my posts (Gerhard, I bet you are grinning ), I will be going in to quiet mode for a while. Will still try and share my thoughts and opinions on the weekends. I've actually enjoyed my time on BMWLT the last several days. It gave me an opportunity to do a whole lot of thinking and some research. Good to work this old brain now and then.

PS: Agree 100%, effective communication and propaganda will prevail in the long run.
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post #50 of 55 Old Feb 26th, 2006, 10:21 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portguyofva
For those that are tired of seeing my posts (Gerhard, I bet you are grinning ), I will be going in to quiet mode for a while. Will still try and share my thoughts and opinions on the weekends. I've actually enjoyed my time on BMWLT the last several days. It gave me an opportunity to do a whole lot of thinking and some research. Good to work this old brain now and then.
actually, ray, i enjoy discussing a tough issue with you. you are a gentleman and you make some great points. i hope you come back soon. and i hope we get to meet on the road one day. love to buy you a beer.
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