Cartoons... What's the hubbub? (Political) - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 30 Old Feb 8th, 2006, 8:26 pm Thread Starter
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Red face Cartoons... What's the hubbub? (Political)

Trying to keep an objective look, but it is sure difficult with what's going on around the world today. The USA has been lumped together with the "offending Nations" of Denmark and France for their insensitive (and blasphemous) cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. We're now guilty, at least in the eyes of some Muslim Nations, of association with these Western Infidels.

Wow! It is obvious that "Free Speech" is not something cherished worldwide. People lost their lives, today in Afghanistan, protesting something they themselves did not see. The masses were stirred up by their leaders via radio. They are protesting out of faith in their leaders. Sound familiar? Don't we have a responsibility not to take everything on faith, and faith alone. Shouldn't we get an objective view of the issues, especially before we get all worked up? Too bad they don't have the same opportunities we have to search out the truth.

Today many of us enjoy the freedom to research and flesh out the truth, at least what we want to believe as truth. Do you want to see the cartoons, and see for yourself what has the Muslim world in such an uproar? Click here for a Blog on the subject. And for more information just Google the "Muhammad Cartoons" subject. What a crazy world we're all living in.

Today should be a wake-up call for our media. After watching a few of the cable news organizations today it showed how surprised they were that the cartoons created such a stir. It should not be so surprising since these same news organizations keep lecturing us that we can't impose our "culture" onto others. Our media can't have it both ways, and expect the Muslim world to not get upset by what we take for granted (free speech). It also should not be surprising to our media that these masses that were protesting do not have access, like we all enjoy, to multi media resources. They have what they have, and it is not all that much, nor is it free speech.

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post #2 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 7:23 am
 
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This is truly a clash of cultures with neither side understanding why the other side does not understand.
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post #3 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 7:32 am
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Hi Ernie:

For a good read from Ducati.ms with 53 responses so far (topic slightly changed mid-stream)...

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=2293



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post #4 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 9:41 am
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Two quotes from an article on MSNBC this morning:

“Defending the prophet should continue worldwide,” Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, told the crowd. “Let (U.S. Secretary of State) Condoleezza Rice, (President) Bush and all the tyrants shut up: We are a nation that can’t forgive, be silent or ease up when they insult our prophet and our sacred values.”

“Today, we are defending the dignity of our prophet with a word, a demonstration but let George Bush and the arrogant world know that if we have to ... we will defend our prophet with our blood, not our voices,” Nasrallah added.

Not too much wiggle room, is there?

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post #5 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 10:03 am
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“Today, we are defending the dignity of our prophet with a word, a demonstration but let George Bush and the arrogant world know that if we have to ... we will defend our prophet with our blood, not our voices,” Nasrallah added.
I'm good with that (let their blood flow, I'm tried of hearing their voices and silly fighting over a dumb cartoon)...As Reagan says "Let the bombing begin...!".

I know that sounds cruel, but enough is enough. And they are right, there is no common ground with these radicals.

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post #6 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 10:08 am
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Richard,
Is that quotation yours ?.
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post #7 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 10:16 am
 
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wow, imagine that. they don't embrace our democratic values. don't they know how great we are?

by all means, let's occupy their country and kill them. kill anyone who isn't like us. let's do it in the name of democracy and freedom for all. be free like us or die.

that'll show 'em, eh?
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post #8 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 10:45 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaffyK
Hi Ernie:

For a good read from Ducati.ms with 53 responses so far (topic slightly changed mid-stream)...

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=2293
Thanks Raffy. I'm feeling better now.

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post #9 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 11:10 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
wow, imagine that. they don't embrace our democratic values. don't they know how great we are?

by all means, let's occupy their country and kill them. kill anyone who isn't like us. let's do it in the name of democracy and freedom for all. be free like us or die.

that'll show 'em, eh?
Wow, what a surprise...they share the same belief as you for democracy and freedom for all. I wouldn't have thought that from any of your prior posts.

Well, everyone has a right to "think" and "say" what they like...But I can't (don't) believe you are agreeing with the violence...Are you? I can’t believe I am even asking this question…but you are starting to worry me KBandit. Do you think those folks are doing the right thing?

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post #10 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 1:02 pm
 
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hi there, justin ...

"right" and "wrong" are interesting concepts, aren't they? to answer your question we could take either an idealistic view or a pragmatic one.

idealism is great for college students, but it has not served us well over the years. let's examine the two, shall we?

ideally, a free press should be able to run whatever it wants, and everyone worldwide should accept it
ideally, iraquis should be anxious to embrace our form of freedom and democracy
ideally, arabs who are granted freedom and democracy would not vote terrorists into office, as they have in the palestinian territories

now let's look at a more pragmatic approach.

pragmatically, it is probably a bad idea to publish a cartoon critical of islam
pragmatically, it is probably best to let iraquis work out their own internal problems, with a political structure that works for them
pragmatically, it would be great if we would stop trying to control events in the arab world and instead focus our attention internally, and on catching the ba$tards responsible for 9/11

i am sick and tired of our country being the world's policeman. every time we try to reshape a region to our designs it blows up in our face.

when will we learn?
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post #11 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 1:30 pm
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[sarcasm]Yeah, let's just bomb the whole place and be done with it. We could take large airplanes, and run them into highly populated political and business centers. That'll show them, and make them run back to their hiding holes in fear. Sure several thousand innocents might die, but unless they're on our side then that doesn't really matter.[/sarcasm]

Do you really think that's the best approach, Justin? Notice I'm not defending the extremists, on either side, but the "kill 'em all" attitude is exactly what escalates these things into the mess we're in now. It never solves anything, and just brings more death and misery on us all.

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post #12 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 1:36 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
pragmatically, it is probably a bad idea to publish a cartoon critical of islam
Why not? I didn't see you upset when Christian values are trampled by the press.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
pragmatically, it is probably best to let iraquis work out their own internal problems, with a political structure that works for them
Mideast has been at this for >5000 years. The fundamentalist mindset doesn't allow for compromise (working it out). Guess we should just let Hitler, Eddie Ameem, Husain continue killing millions of innocent people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
pragmatically, it would be great if we would stop trying to control events in he arab world and instead focus our attention internally, and on catching the ba$tards responsible for 9/11
We had our chance to catch bin Laden (Before 9/11, via Sudan), but Clinton was too busy committing adultery and refused.


I hate to ask this, but which country would you like to live in? I gotta believe it's the "land of make believe". Please, join the real world (you are most likley thinking the same about me).

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post #13 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 2:19 pm
 
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Please, join the real world (you are most likley thinking the same about me).
justin ... no, i don't think of you that way at all. i have no doubt that you are sincere in your convictions and believe you are right. just because we disagree does not mean either of us live in a fantasyland.
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post #14 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 5:48 pm
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Wow! a freedom of speech issue. These dialogs are always interesting especially when the argument involves multipolar ideals. It is interesting to note, how hard it is to define such a seemingly simple concept. It usually boils down to "how much freedom" mixed in with "what kind of speech" is desirable, or allowable . Careful analysis will often conclude that neither is absolutely free in any society and all societies restrict the idea to some degree.
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post #15 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 9:58 pm
 
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Originally Posted by ErnieA
Sound familiar? Don't we have a responsibility not to take everything on faith, and faith alone. Shouldn't we get an objective view of the issues, especially before we get all worked up? Too bad they don't have the same opportunities we have to search out the truth.
You make that sound like people in this country actually search out the truth. Truth might go against all the stuff you have been fed all your life.

Give me religion, give me death.
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post #16 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 10:00 pm
 
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We had our chance to catch bin Laden (Before 9/11, via Sudan), but Clinton was too busy committing adultery and refused
Is that the best you got. At least you could add with an ugly fat girl.

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A "civilization" that has been at constant war for thousands of years with almost everybody? I am thinking there must be something wrong here. I have never understood killing in the name of religion. These fanatics have changed the whole world. Do you think for the better? The world is no longer free. Most importantly, Do you see it getting better? They will not stop killing people until there is no one left to kill. We must find a way to stop war here and every where else. With nukes and chemical weapons, there are no winners. However, Since they will never stop.........Drastic unrelenting action needs to take place. Glass farming maybe our only option. When a limb gets infected, sometimes you have to cut off the limb to save the REST of the body.

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post #18 of 30 Old Feb 9th, 2006, 10:47 pm
 
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Glass farming maybe our only option. When a limb gets infected, sometimes you have to cut off the limb to save the REST of the body.
yeah, that's one way to go alright. of course that makes us not much better than al quaida, doesn't it?
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post #19 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 12:11 am
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But it's not the whole civilization. Just as here in the States, it's the fanatics who get all the press. Please don't mistake the extreme actions of a few as the mindset of the whole. That's like saying Bush or Jesse Jackson speaks for every American, when clearly that's not the case.

As I sat in disbelief watching the World Trade Towers burn on BBC (I was in Wales at the time), I remember seeing a Muslim woman being interviewed. She basically said that she knew the difference between the IRL and the Irish, and that assuming all Irish were terrorists was just plain wrong. Simply assuming all Muslims are terrorists bent solely on our destruction is just as wrong. And besides, the Christians have had more than their share of wars and terror over the centuries, and they don't seem done yet either.

I read a lot of travel threads on ADVRider and other info on round-the-world motorcyclists. Many of these guys have ridden into Russia, the Middle East, Palestine, India, Africa, etc., and spoken directly with the natives. The most overwhelming response is that the people are just people, who pretty much just want to live their lives in peace without intervention from external power junkies. And that those who have the least will offer the most to a weary traveler. Sure there is suspicion of outsiders, but an honest smile, an awareness of other cultures, and a simple attempt at the local language will break down a lot of barriers. The second most overwhelming response is that the news media and the governments are masters at disinformation, spinning any incident to suit their own goals. Unless you've physically been there yourself, you have no idea where the truth may really lie. And even then it's not wholly clear.

After all, to the fanatics we're the "evil infection" that needs to be eliminated at all costs. To respond in kind, especially towards an entire culture or group simply amplifies the violence and never provides any sort of solution.

The whole situation is just way more complicated than that, and will not be solved by more violence.

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post #20 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 3:14 am Thread Starter
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To defend or not? Your take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
yeah, that's one way to go alright. of course that makes us not much better than al quaida, doesn't it?
When I read your posts I'm reminded of one of my ethics courses in college. Our professor would not allow anyone to speak or argue a point without some substance to back up their statements. I would like to see more substance from you Gerhard. Tell me, or us for that manner, when and where we should defend ourselves from attack, whether from terrorists or a sovereign nation. What manner will you defend us, if we were to put you in charge? It is so easy for you to sit on the sidelines and snipe at others opinions, but we don't often hear from you just what the clear answer is. Is it too complicated for you, or any one of us, to debate? Like the Dutch and French are experiencing now, are we to just sit here and "self-censure" ourselves for fear of being labeled "MuslumPhobic" or "War Mongers"? I don't think so. Do you?

It is your turn Gerhard. You are now in charge of the whole thing and I am putting my whole trust in you to keep me, my family and friends, and my way of life safe for all eternity. What will you do? If you do not have a good answer you might get flamed and gutter-sniped, the same tactic I feel you use on others, therefore you will feel like those who just are not as articulate at putting together an argument as they would like.

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post #21 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 3:56 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
But it's not the whole civilization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese


The whole situation is just way more complicated than that, and will not be solved by more violence.


I agree that violence for the sake of violence will not work. To join the terrorists at there own game is not my idea of winning a "war." However, they brought the war to us. They got in our face and we struck back. Sure we can argue all day that we went for the easy targets in Afghanistan (Taliban) and didn't get the "tallest" one in the "white robe" as Hillary spoke of. Well we did not get him yet is a better way to put it.

What we're getting here is a good dose of what we gave the British in 1774-'76. We could not fight them using the conventional rules of war at the time. We were unorganized, undermanned, and out-gunned. It was suicide if we met the British in a "fair" fight. So, we terrorized them. It worked then, but it does not have to work that way today. Being pro-active is way better than reactive.

If what you are saying is true, and I believe it is, "it isn't the whole civilization" (of Muslims) wanting to fight. However it is a "percentage" that do want to fight and change the world to their ideals. I think we can agree on that? What is that percentage? Being that the Muslim faith is the fastest growing religion in the world that "percentage" is only going to grow exponentially.

Let's bring the argument closer to home: To use your thought process on our own community. If a gang of WASP kids decide to take over a neighborhood with intimidation and threats. If the situation is allowed to escalate and there is violence, even death, toward anyone who wants to resist it. Just because it isn't in my back yard, it isn't any of my problems; therefore I can just turn the other way. The gang feels safe in their own world taking over a neighborhood and being allowed to get away with it. But nothing stays static, and expansion will happen, therefore it will come to your back yard. What do you do? Move? Negotiate? What if the negotiation means that you will have to change your values, for if you don't you will be met with harm? Still want to negotiate? When will it stop?

If we are the "infection" that means "we" are going to either have to capitulate or push back. Agree, or disagree?


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post #22 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 7:56 am
 
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Originally Posted by ErnieA
It is your turn Gerhard. You are now in charge of the whole thing and I am putting my whole trust in you to keep me, my family and friends, and my way of life safe for all eternity. What will you do? If you do not have a good answer you might get flamed and gutter-sniped, the same tactic I feel you use on others, therefore you will feel like those who just are not as articulate at putting together an argument as they would like.
hi there, ernie.

i regret that you view my opinions of world events, "gutter sniping." but i have to wonder if you would characterize them that way if they were aligned with your views?

face it, brother ... here in america we are free. free to speak our minds openly on tough issues. it is probably best that you make peace with that.

as to what i'd do ... wow, that's a big burden, nichts? i am neither qualified nor suited to the job. but then again i never applied for it, did i?

that said, as an american citizen i am qualified to have an opinion and to express it here, just like you. so here:

1) i would have poured military resources into afghanistan and, if needed, pakistan, to capture bin laden and all of al quaida. mushareff would fight against it, but in the end he would give in, because of international pressure and because of numerous carrots we could dangle in front of him for compliance. we had tremendous international backing to get al quaida. we squandered it.

2) in iraq i would have funded insurgents against saddam, putting the burden of his overthrow on the iraqi people. if there were not enough support for an overthrow, i would live with it. if there were clear evidence of WMD i'd go with surgical airstrikes to take them out. the last thing i'd do is occupy iraq. george bush senior knew this when he was in office, and he said so.

3) in denmark i would have run the damnable cartoon. once. i am not smart enough about islam to have predicted the reaction. after that i'd never run another similar cartoon again. no cartoon is worth what happened next.

4) in the palestinian territories i'll be damned if i know what to do now. the israelis pulled out of the disputed territories. the palestinians had free elections and voted terrorists into office. i guess i would try to establish relations with hamas and try to influence them to recognize israel and stop the violence. give them their land back, but not all at once.

what would YOU do, ernie? please, please ... my family and friends are in your hands!

and remember ... NO GUTTER SNIPING. LOL.
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post #23 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 9:28 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
wow, imagine that. they don't embrace our democratic values. don't they know how great we are?

by all means, let's occupy their country and kill them. kill anyone who isn't like us. let's do it in the name of democracy and freedom for all. be free like us or die.

that'll show 'em, eh?
Let's see. So no one but us in the West should be free to determine their and their country's future? To say that a country like Iraq, the 'stans, Iran, N. Korea, etc. has that ability now is very foolish and ignorant. Tyrannical governments keep their subjects poor and ignorant for a reason. Yet, when freedom and posterity are allowed to develop the tyrants and extremists lose their hold and tolerance and civility increase.

The Global War on Terror is very real and the consequences of doing nothing or losing are dire to the extreme. Islamic fanatics will not stop their brutal attempts at world wide subjugation should we decide' "Hey, we were wrong. We're sorry we disturbed you. We'll just go back to our country and leave everyone alone. Have a great life!" Other countries would continue to fall to the Islamic Fundamentalists, the other "great powers" would be intimidated into ineffectual puppet states, and the world economy would go into the dumpster. Our economy would collapse and we would soon be fighting terrorists on our street corners. (unless we went ahead and totally surrendered to the likes of bin Laden. But that still wouldn't save our economy or way of life.) China and possibly Russia would have a resurgancy though. A wouldn't that be great.

The GWOT is like no other war we've faced. The enemy is completely different than what our military and country have faced before. It requires completely differant strategies, tactics, diplomacy, economics, and use of information. Too many people's thinking is still anchored in the cold war era. The Free World's stategists are having a tough time wrapping their minds around the new situation as well as the part religion plays in all of it.

To get a better understanding of the strategy behind the U.S.'s actions of the past 6 years or so:
Read "The Pentagon's New Map..." by Thomas P.M. Barrett.
Read Robert Kaplan's books and essays.
Go to www.whitehouse.gov/nsc, look for the "documents" section, download and read the National Strategic Strategy.
Go to the Department of Defense web site and download and read the National Military Strategy. (although quadannual review has just been completed and may change the NMS along with the way our military is structured)

If you do all the above (and it's a bunch) you'll have a better understanding of the world situation and what we're (the U.S.) trying to do about it. Then we'll all be better equiped to debate the pros and cons of the actions of our government leaders and those of the other state and non-state actors.

(OK, go ahead and flame away)

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post #24 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 10:59 am Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Matt

To get a better understanding of the strategy behind the U.S.'s actions of the past 6 years or so:
Read "The Pentagon's New Map..." by Thomas P.M. Barrett.
Read Robert Kaplan's books and essays.
Go to www.whitehouse.gov/nsc, look for the "documents" section, download and read the National Strategic Strategy.
Go to the Department of Defense web site and download and read the National Military Strategy. (although quadannual review has just been completed and may change the NMS along with the way our military is structured)


(OK, go ahead and flame away)
No flame comimg from this direction. Thank you Matt. I better start reading.
E

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post #25 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 1:50 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KBandit
hi there, ernie.

i regret that you view my opinions of world events, "gutter sniping." but i have to wonder if you would characterize them that way if they were aligned with your views?

face it, brother ... here in america we are free. free to speak our minds openly on tough issues. it is probably best that you make peace with that.

as to what i'd do ... wow, that's a big burden, nichts? i am neither qualified nor suited to the job. but then again i never applied for it, did i?

that said, as an american citizen i am qualified to have an opinion and to express it here, just like you. so here:

1) i would have poured military resources into afghanistan and, if needed, pakistan, to capture bin laden and all of al quaida. mushareff would fight against it, but in the end he would give in, because of international pressure and because of numerous carrots we could dangle in front of him for compliance. we had tremendous international backing to get al quaida. we squandered it.

2) in iraq i would have funded insurgents against saddam, putting the burden of his overthrow on the iraqi people. if there were not enough support for an overthrow, i would live with it. if there were clear evidence of WMD i'd go with surgical airstrikes to take them out. the last thing i'd do is occupy iraq. george bush senior knew this when he was in office, and he said so.

3) in denmark i would have run the damnable cartoon. once. i am not smart enough about islam to have predicted the reaction. after that i'd never run another similar cartoon again. no cartoon is worth what happened next.

4) in the palestinian territories i'll be damned if i know what to do now. the israelis pulled out of the disputed territories. the palestinians had free elections and voted terrorists into office. i guess i would try to establish relations with hamas and try to influence them to recognize israel and stop the violence. give them their land back, but not all at once.

what would YOU do, ernie? please, please ... my family and friends are in your hands!

and remember ... NO GUTTER SNIPING. LOL.
Gerhard,

Before you put the ball in my court please answer my plea for help. I said, "It is your turn Gerhard. You are now in charge of the whole thing and I am putting my whole trust in you to keep me, my family and friends, and my way of life safe for all eternity. What will you do? If you do not have a good answer you might get flamed and gutter-sniped, the same tactic I feel you use on others, therefore you will feel like those who just are not as articulate at putting together an argument as they would like."

You prefaced your essay on "I would have" instead of "what will you do" and then posed the question, my question, back to me. I'm not ready to take your bait. You will have to do a better job than this. Your opinions are still without substance because you are living in the past, and you did not answer the question. I appreciate the history lesson however. Now I want to hear Gerard of the present and future. Where do we go from here. If I knew it all, and I haven't ever said I have known it all, I would have ventured into your trap. My concern with Free Speech, and for anyone that is joining this discussion midstream might want to read my first post, is that it comes with a responsibility. A responsibility to "flesh out the truth" as I said. To flesh out, in my book, is to ask questions. To flesh out is to get answers. We all know where we've been in the past few years. We don't need to dwell any longer on the history of it all. We need bright individuals, like yourself, to move on and come up with answers to tomorrows problems. This is the same rhetoric coming from Capitol Hill. Instead of "Move-On.org" we need "Move-On.Gov."

Nice try. Cast again, but this fish is reading and trying to understand from the points-of-view of our enemy. I'm trying to find out from their vantage point what the issues are. I will be around in the pond somewhere.

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post #26 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 3:00 pm
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Hey Ernie how's the shoulder doing? Still keeping you up late, I see.

I agree that none of us here have the resources to truly understand and respond to these problems. I fear that our government and military doesn't either, but they're the best we have so we will all live with those consequences.

My original response was to Justin's (and others) idea that we should just bomb the whole place. Applying that tactic to your analogy of the WASP gangs, then we should ignore the situation until they start to branch out towards us, then just nuke the whole neighborhood, or state. I understand there is fear due to the very real threat we all face, but "kill 'em all" just never works, period.

Clearly we have to deal with this new threat, and with new policies and responses unlike anything we've tried in the past. I don't know what the true answers are, but I do agree that the old ways of thinking just won't cut it. We can't just ignore the situation, nor can we just nuke everyone who may disagree with us or want to harm us. We effectively have to start our own campaign of terror, but preferably focused very specifically on those who are directly involved in bringing terrorism to our shores.

Rout the Taliban, as they were proven to be supporting Al Qaeda, and as such they were given a clear ultimatum with clear consequences that we followed through on. Chase Al Qaeda and Bin Ladin to the ends of the earth, using assassins and drone planes to pick them off in groups or one by one if needed. Increase security and intelligence capabilities on our own soil and around the world, but go specifically after those who pose a direct threat to us.

We cannot win this conflict using the largest armies and the most bombs, any more than the British could 200 years ago. And while I can see the long-term advantages of a stable democracy in Iraq, we're clearly just not getting there. But as each day passes, more and more troops die as the real terrorists go on with their business and our government and military struggle in the quagmire that Iraq has become. That's scarier than anything else said so far.

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post #27 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 3:30 pm
 
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hi ernie,

you are right ... i did a poor job of looking forward. i guess i'm just pretty upset about the past five years.

so let me answer directly with "what i will do" ...

1) i will issue an absolute timetable for withdrawal from iraq. 6-to-12 months. put the burden of protecting iraq squarely on iraqis. sink or swim.

2) i will not run any more cartoons critical if islam. no cartoon is worth loss of human life. censorship of news reporting is one thing. cartoons is another.

3) i will attempt to open dialogue with hamas, as the russians are doing now. i will offer them some very big incentives to lay down their arms, and i will definitely engage the israelis in that process.

4) i will channel some of the military assets being withdrawn from iraq to afghanistan ... particulary to the afghan/pakistan border (as described previously). we seem to have lost track of the fact that the criminals are still free. this is NOT acceptable.

regarding item 1) ... no doubt you are thinking this is crazy. there would be civil war. the terrorists would win in iraq. they would expand their influence throughout the middle east. that is almost precisely what people said when we left south vietnam. there would be civil war. the communists would win in vietnam. they would expand their influence throughout southeast asia.

thanks for the opportunity to extend my first post to a more future-looking one.

but i have to say i don't appreciate being referred to as a "gutter snipe" (twice) and a poster "without substance." can we debate issues without personal attacks? i hope so.
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post #28 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 5:44 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hey Ernie how's the shoulder doing? Still keeping you up late, I see.




Thanks for asking. The shoulder is still hurting and yes it is keeping me up at night. It will pass, just like me posting so much drivel on this site.



Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
I agree that none of us here have the resources to truly understand and respond to these problems. I fear that our government and military doesn't either, but they're the best we have so we will all live with those consequences.




I agree with you on the lack of resources to have a full understanding. But that doesn't stop people from coming across as experts in areas they have no expertise in at all. Opinions are just opinions, unless they do not have a solution, then they are just complaints. Yet we will go forward and continue to survive in this world even with a government/military we all won't agree with. We are resilient in the face of aggression.



Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
My original response was to Justin's (and others) idea that we should just bomb the whole place. Applying that tactic to your analogy of the WASP gangs, then we should ignore the situation until they start to branch out towards us, then just nuke the whole neighborhood, or state. I understand there is fear due to the very real threat we all face, but "kill 'em all" just never works, period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese



Clearly we have to deal with this new threat, and with new policies and responses unlike anything we've tried in the past. I don't know what the true answers are, but I do agree that the old ways of thinking just won't cut it. We can't just ignore the situation, nor can we just nuke everyone who may disagree with us or want to harm us. We effectively have to start our own campaign of terror, but preferably focused very specifically on those who are directly involved in bringing terrorism to our shores.




My point exactly. To use another analogy: Let's continue to prune out the diseased limbs before the whole tree is infected. Let's not set the whole orchard on fire and start from scratch. Who knows what we'll grow after the orchard is plowed under. Looking to the future perhaps we can do a better job of identifying threats and "surgically" remove them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Rout the Taliban, as they were proven to be supporting Al Qaeda, and as such they were given a clear ultimatum with clear consequences that we followed through on. Chase Al Qaeda and Bin Ladin to the ends of the earth, using assassins and drone planes to pick them off in groups or one by one if needed. Increase security and intelligence capabilities on our own soil and around the world, but go specifically after those who pose a direct threat to us.




I agree again with you. However, are you thinking the US and other "friendly" nations will get the cooperation to help bring Al Qaeda to justice? Our form of justice, or even theirs? History lessons aside, and with the respect to looking forward, it isn't like we have the ability to walk into every sovereign nation that "might" be harboring Al Qaeda, or their sympathizers. I believe we will have to answer dearly for every missile that we launch into one of these nations. The enemy just isn't going to stand out in a field somewhere away from non-combatants and wait for the hum of a drone plane, and the world loves to rake us over the coals for collateral damage. We have to be careful not to become what we loathe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
We cannot win this conflict using the largest armies and the most bombs, any more than the British could 200 years ago. And while I can see the long-term advantages of a stable democracy in Iraq, we're clearly just not getting there. But as each day passes, more and more troops die as the real terrorists go on with their business and our government and military struggle in the quagmire that Iraq has become. That's scarier than anything else said so far.




I agree again on the point of the "largest armies or most bombs", but to say "we're not getting there" in regards to a stable democracy? I see it differently. I see that it is more stable than it was, but not getting where WE want it as FAST as we want it. What country can we look to that has turned a government from a dictatorship to democracy without struggle and time? I can not think of one off the top of my head.



Right now we're still in the trenches, so what's wrong with helping the troops get it done and get out? Where does it help to keep looking at yesterday and not look at today and tomorrow? Why is it impossible for some bi-partisan, or tri-partisan for that manner, respect and come up with solutions?

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post #29 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 6:59 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
hi ernie,
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit



you are right ... i did a poor job of looking forward. i guess i'm just pretty upset about the past five years.



so let me answer directly with "what i will do" ...




I too am upset with the past 5 years. I'm willing to move on, and that is what we all need to let our leaders know. Just beating the dead horse will not get us to where we need to be.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
1) i will issue an absolute timetable for withdrawal from iraq. 6-to-12 months. put the burden of protecting iraq squarely on iraqis. sink or swim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit

(Cut from the end of KBandit's writing)

regarding item 1) ... no doubt you are thinking this is crazy. there would be civil war. the terrorists would win in iraq. they would expand their influence throughout the middle east. that is almost precisely what people said when we left south vietnam. there would be civil war. the communists would win in vietnam. they would expand their influence throughout southeast asia.




I agree, and I don't think your solution is crazy. I know this will make a lot of politicians and military nervous, but we need to preface the "date" with a fall back plan. One way to do this is to set up a fall-back zone that still shows strength and readiness if the area becomes too unstable. If we were to say, "If you thought we were not serious about this, test us." How unstable, you ask? How will we know unless we help the fledging country stand on its own to see? As long as we're there they will become ever-reliant on the USA for welfare and security. BTW, the U.N. Has to step up eventually, afterall they can't hide from this situation forever. We will eventually leave.



A Viet Nam history lesson? Different story altogether in my opinion and isn't relevant. Communism had to evolve too, didn't it? Communism as it was in '72 is not what it is today. Sure, there is not emerging democracies abounding in S. E. Asia, but grab your passport and fly to one of those emerging "communist" countries who's economies are as capitalist as any to ever be on the face of this earth. They'll love your $$$.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
2) i will not run any more cartoons critical if islam. no cartoon is worth loss of human life. censorship of news reporting is one thing. cartoons is another.




Agreed that this form of insensitivity will not get us any closer in understanding why some in another culture hates us, and want to murder us. I wonder what would happen if we let our children draw caricatures of their teachers and principals(or other students), then let them publish them for all the students to ridicule. We wouldn't and we don't let them get away with it. Why do we bother teaching our children to have respect for others, and then throw that value in the garbage when we are adults?



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
3) i will attempt to open dialogue with hamas, as the russians are doing now. i will offer them some very big incentives to lay down their arms, and i will definitely engage the israelis in that process.




I agree once again. If we are going to play a game then we have to play with all the opponents. To say we don't associate with terrorists, especially after having associated with Arafat, is only making us look silly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
4) i will channel some of the military assets being withdrawn from iraq to afghanistan ... particulary to the afghan/pakistan border (as described previously). we seem to have lost track of the fact that the criminals are still free. this is NOT acceptable.




Agreed again (with conditions); let’s go get'em in their own back yard. But what happens when they assemble in Iran and Syria? Are you going to concede defeat and come home with your tail between your legs? How about some wiggle room here? We have to be able to take the fight to them on their turf, just as you're saying, but don't think they won't jump a fence and hide out in the next neighborhood.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
thanks for the opportunity to extend my first post to a more future-looking one.



No, Thank you!




Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
but i have to say i don't appreciate being referred to as a "gutter snipe" (twice) and a poster "without substance." can we debate issues without personal attacks? i hope so.




I apologize if I offended you. I never meant to. We're all friends here, and we all have an opportunity to learn from each other. The point I was trying to make is that it is easier to regurgitate the past and not look toward the future. Just having an opinion is not what changes minds, however attaching something relevant to your opinion will. Thank you for this opportunity to converse with you.

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post #30 of 30 Old Feb 10th, 2006, 10:27 pm
 
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Originally Posted by ErnieA
[I apologize if I offended you. I never meant to. We're all friends here, and we all have an opportunity to learn from each other. The point I was trying to make is that it is easier to regurgitate the past and not look toward the future. Just having an opinion is not what changes minds, however attaching something relevant to your opinion will. Thank you for this opportunity to converse with you.[/i][/color]
apology accepted. i was being oversensitive.

a good weekend to you ...
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