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post #1 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 11:35 am Thread Starter
 
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Speaking of Cop Shootings!

How about the returning war vet (20 something years old) who was shot 3 times by a patrolman at point blank, after a car chase in which he was a passenger, found all over the national news recently. That looked to be pathetic gun handling and control by the officer involved. My mouth was agape at seeing that. That cop should be fired and tried by a jury. I'd like to hear from you LEO's out there on this one.
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post #2 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 12:34 pm
 
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I've been trying to find the video just so I can form my own opinion on it what might have happened.
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post #3 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 12:39 pm
 
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I saw it and still have no idea of what happened.

I just know it was horrible. I don't think anyone could second guess the problem at hand by looking at the video so who knows.

I think the guy was a passenger to boot. Not that it would make him/her any less dangerous, maybe more so if they expected a weapon...

It will be interesting to see the outcome. I'm sure it will be investigated.

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post #4 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 1:55 pm
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See if I can find the vid - I've seen it - gotta link someplace.

Kinda hard to tell for sure, but seems the officer tells the guy to get up, and as he does - the officer fires. Not too clear on who was saying what though. May have been the guy on the ground saying he's going to get up. Been some comments on racial stuff (like that's a surprise), seems the officer is a minority member. Guy that got shot is an SP for USAF. USAF cop, basicly. Looks more to me like a 'who's got the biggest' encounter. Glock won.

Found it, here's the vid:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21042638173366

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post #5 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 2:23 pm
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That looks like plain old cold blooded murder to me. He just wanted to kill someone. I know there are lots and lots of "good, professional" leo's in the world. I know several of them. It's the ones like this that scare me. It takes a special kind of person to keep their head on a traffic stop. There are little towns here in Oklahoma where the cops are mostly untrained and just out on a power trip. A friend of mine got shot one night passing through one of these towns when he reached for his seat belt to unfasten it. (He had long hair.) They need to figure out a way to weed these kinds out in the psyc eval.

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post #6 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 2:37 pm
 
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Thank God, Not Typical

I'm in the law enforcement profession and what everyone has seen is uncalled for. Based upon what I've read & from seeing the video, I have tried to give the officer every benefit of the doubt - trying to figure out what would have prompted his actions. I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING!

The young service man was the perfect example of how you would want a suspect to act in response to officer commands. He repeated to the officer what he was doing and he did it slowly and unthreateningly.

This kind of incident sure hurts those who are out here serving their communities to the very best of their ability and putting their lives on the line.

Keith
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post #7 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 3:32 pm Thread Starter
 
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John, unbelievably the victim was not killed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpspen
That looks like plain old cold blooded murder to me. He just wanted to kill someone. I know there are lots and lots of "good, professional" leo's in the world. I know several of them. It's the ones like this that scare me. It takes a special kind of person to keep their head on a traffic stop. There are little towns here in Oklahoma where the cops are mostly untrained and just out on a power trip. A friend of mine got shot one night passing through one of these towns when he reached for his seat belt to unfasten it. (He had long hair.) They need to figure out a way to weed these kinds out in the psyc eval.

John
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post #8 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 3:34 pm
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As a long time police officer, I was also flabbergasted at that shooting. The officer in question will and should pay the price.

Here in Baltimore, we have had a rash of officers beating civilians for no reason, officers involved in the drug trade and the latest was an officer who arrested a suspect on a gun charge but took all the expensive jewelry the perp had in his car which turned out to be stolen in two separate robberies.

How did they catch up with the officer? He gave the jewelry to his wife to take to a pawn shop! What a genius!

I will repeat what I have been saying for years. They have lowered the standards in the name of diversity and political correctness and hired people who have had criminal convictions in the past. The pay is low and the stress of working 6 day weeks and rotating shifts in a town that has seen 31 murders in 2006 alone and with 50,000 drug addicts and where 50% of the population has been in prison or on probation for criminal activity, leads to qualified, dedicated officer candidates to look elsewhere to work.

Of course, this does not negate the outstanding work of thousands of dedicated officers that go about their duties in a highly professional way everyday here in the United States.

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post #9 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 3:51 pm
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Having a couple of years of experience behind me, I think that saying that all is not what it appears to be, especially if you weren't there. Everybody is an excellent Monday morning quarter back. Everybody's got 20/20 hindsight. NEVER trust the news media.
Saw the video but would like to hear what the officer has to say, think it through, ask a couple of questions, ponder on it for a day or two and then pass any judgement. That video is the end of a series of events.
That's my nickles worth.
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post #10 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 4:58 pm
 
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I agree with the Monday Morning Quarter Back Analogy but if I may....it allmost looks as though the officer was baiting the suspect by telling him to "get up". Creating an agressive move???
I wonder, considering I think the officer was black, if there will be as huge a racially motivated stir as there was in some of the "other" similar situations that we've seen....I bet not. Probably the last we've heard of it. AAH, politics!
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post #11 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 5:55 pm Thread Starter
 
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Monday Morning Quarterback??? The video says it all... this isn't a story being told by witnesses with the grape vine effect or biased neighbor's and family... nothing leading up to that point warranted shooting the victim, the LEO was not in danger of his life in any way. It doesn't matter what was said before that... it's clearly too much power and aggression for the situation. If nothing else, the LEO could have stepped back and given himself more time to think and respond to the victim's next move. Give me a break... the victim was telling him everything he was going to do, it wasn't a surprise when he stood up... he was asked to stand up; clearly heard in the video.
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post #12 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 6:06 pm
 
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Angry

I dont trust cops ! pure and simple. I have had too many Bull*&^% encounters with power hungry closet perverts to feel any different. My uncle was Special agent in charge in the ATF, Brother in Law Canine officer and next door neighbor, cousin Sheriff. Still dont feel any different. They are given to much power in life and death situations and too many abuse it. Also take advantage of others generosity.
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post #13 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 6:27 pm
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As a LEO, this is a difficult case. I've watched the video several times. Just before we hear the deputy say "get up" , he said something else, but I could not tell what.

There are seveal things that bother me about the perception of this case. The deputy was involved in a short, but high speed, pursuit of this vehicle. I don't know any officer that would tell a suspect to get up. Not to mention there were two suspects. The deputy was alone, with no backup there, so I cannot imagine he wants the suspect to get up. Also, if the suspect was a military policeman, he should know to not get up when there is a gun pointed at him.

This is not a good cae, too much media attraction. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the deputy. I cannot imagine that he was telling the suspect to get up, not after a pursuit.

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post #14 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 7:06 pm
 
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Angry Unbelievable

If the tape is all there is to this, its about the worst case of abuse that I have ever seen. It is very disturbing and disgracefull. It leaves a mark on all of us who have sworn to uphold the law.
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post #15 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 11:43 pm
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As a retired officer/investigator you just cannot convict on the video alone. There is a lot of dark areas that one cannot see what is happening. There will be lots of evidence at the scene and intensive questioning of the officer, victim and any witnesses. Plus, who ever was filming the incident. So I am not going to pass judgement on just a video only. If it turns out the officer was in the wrong then he should be charge with assault w/intent to murder. As for some of you who do not trust officers and have stated your reasons, I can understand your thinking baised on bad experiences and your leariness. But to give a blanket statement that you cannot trust any LEO is just plain ignorant. Respectfullness, caution, and common sence should always occur when dealing with any LEO.
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post #16 of 26 Old Feb 6th, 2006, 11:44 pm
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I hate to monday morning quarter back this, with just the video. Keep in mind there was a second suspect and the video does not show him. There is alot more to this case.

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post #17 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 7:29 am
 
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Read the book 'Blink'. Pay close attention to the section of the book where he talks about why many in the policing business advocate TWO officers in a car.
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post #18 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 7:38 am
 
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Angry

I have seen too many people, who were normal people, turn into weird,unstable, power mongering, Holier than though people, after becoming police officers, not to mention alienating themselves from mainstream society. My best friend in High school - who I cannot even talk to anymore due to his attitude. My brother in law - who is teaching his son how to shoot kill and maim, he should directing him toward some kind of Higher education. My cousin who thought everything that moved was after him ( I could put him in the video as the officer and probably had the same results ) and drank himself to death a couple of months ago. His father and ATF agent died under similar circumstances. People change after they become police - their inner demons that they were able to control before - come to the surface and lose control. I admit there are good cops - but the bad ones - which there are quite a few - cause me to overlook the good ones. I think some kind of ongoing Psychiatric evaluation should be done annually by an unbiased civilian doctor. And yes I am angry !
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post #19 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 10:25 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfran
I have seen too many people, who were normal people, turn into weird,unstable, power mongering, Holier than though people, after becoming police officers, not to mention alienating themselves from mainstream society. My best friend in High school - who I cannot even talk to anymore due to his attitude. My brother in law - who is teaching his son how to shoot kill and maim, he should directing him toward some kind of Higher education. My cousin who thought everything that moved was after him ( I could put him in the video as the officer and probably had the same results ) and drank himself to death a couple of months ago. His father and ATF agent died under similar circumstances. People change after they become police - their inner demons that they were able to control before - come to the surface and lose control. I admit there are good cops - but the bad ones - which there are quite a few - cause me to overlook the good ones. I think some kind of ongoing Psychiatric evaluation should be done annually by an unbiased civilian doctor. And yes I am angry !
wow ... i've met some law enforcement officers that are real pricks, but you are way over-generalizing.

here is the problem as i see it: cops have tough jobs and in many parts of the country they are WAY underpaid. that means the quality of the average LEO really suffers. almost all of my bad encounters have been in the deep south.

here in california, law is unionized, and the quality is very high. i have never had an unfortunate run-in here. have a received tickets? yup. but only when i deserved it. and the law has always been courteous, respectful, and very professional.

regarding the video ... how on earth can anyone say that it could possibly be a good shoot. that guy just got up. unless he was holding a gun or a knife, surely it is not reason to shoot him.
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post #20 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 10:37 am
 
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Sorry Mark, I mean no disrespect here but I can't let you make a blanket statement like that without commenting.
I'm not a L.E. officer but I deal with them often in my profession.
I also have a retired Sheriff's Captain in my employ who is a fine person and one of the best fathers to his step children that I have ever seen.
I have found that sometimes Police Officers do, indeed have strong personalities but it is others with similar strong personalities that have trouble dealing with the Police. They are the one's who perceive the Police in "general" as being "Weird, unstable, power mongering or Holier than thou".
Typically, a Police officer needs to develope the skill of switching on and off a threat level mechanism. Call it Paranoia but a little paranoia goes a long way in keeping a person out of trouble. Particularly taking into account one's environment in a given situation. Some have trouble with this mechanism.
Some Police officers do have trouble dealing with the things that they are exposed to on a daily basis. Child sex crimes & murder, horrendous traffic accidents, societal ills, etc...It could be, you or I might be prone to developing a drinking problem.
As far as your Brother-in-law...I don't know. Could be you're reading too much into him teaching his son to properly handle and respect firearms?
Or, he could be one of those desperado types...but they are few in general in my experience.
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post #21 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 11:58 am
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Similar to military combat veterans, law enforcement officers experience a plethora of treacherous, violent stresses on a daily basis. The psychological aftermath of such experiences can be either acute or chronic and can emerge or reoccur across broad temporal scales. While on active duty and upon returning to civilian life, military personnel—and, likewise, law enforcement officers—carry this stress-laden emotional baggage, which can produce multitudinous residual effects. Generally speaking, stress responses begin with anxiety and panic reactions, which often lead to feelings of being overwhelmed or out of control.



Studies have indicated that nearly one-quarter of law enforcement officers are alcohol dependent as a result of on-the-job stress; however, researchers believe that this estimate falls well below the true number due to incomplete reporting. The unique subculture of the law enforcement profession often makes alcohol use appear as an accepted practice to promote camaraderie and social interaction among officers. What starts as an occasional socializing activity, however, later can become a dangerous addiction as alcohol use evolves into a coping mechanism to camouflage the stress and trauma experienced by officers on a daily basis. When the effects of the alcohol wear off, however, the stress or trauma that led to the drinking episode still exists.



When officers suffer the aftermath of trauma, they are not alone. Many who tout their “tough guy” image, see themselves as weak or abnormal if they seek help, and believe that admitting psychological or emotional pain will result in disciplinary action and, perhaps, job dismissal. Unfortunately, however, severe anxiety reactions have far-reaching impacts, not only on the officers suffering the trauma but, importantly, on their colleagues, the families they love, and the public they have sworn to protect and serve.



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post #22 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 2:26 pm
 
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To each his own ! I personally feel that more policing should be done of the police. And if you are unstable and cant handle it, get out.

My Uncle who I have said was a Special Agent in charge in the ATF warned the rest of his family and his son of the dangers of Law Enforcement, not just physically but mentally and tried to deter anyone from doing it. As far as anyone can tell, He was killed by his own - no one has ever said definitively what happened.

These Police killings,shootings and beatings are too close to home for me. If they werent filmed we would never know the truth.

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post #23 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 2:29 pm
 
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Maybe the Deep South has something to do with it, Is Los Angeles in the Deep South ?
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post #24 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 2:49 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfran
Maybe the Deep South has something to do with it, Is Los Angeles in the Deep South ?
point taken. both this and the rodney king incident were in L.A.

i was speaking from personal experience, which may or may not be valid.
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post #25 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 3:08 pm
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I'm not gonna get into the good cop / bad cop discussion, or even speculating on what we did or didn't see, or the tragedy that this situation will remain for all involved. But did anyone else think it odd that they could show the shooting as clearly as possible (admittedly with a prior disclaimer), but were forced to bleep out certain language? Showing first-hand violence is fine, but god forbid we should hear any bad words at the same time.

Society is more messed up than most of us realize, or would care to admit.

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post #26 of 26 Old Feb 7th, 2006, 3:09 pm
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All of you have some very valid points.

When I joined the department in 1966, many of the recruits were right out of the military and many of them were right off the plane from Saigon! The stress of day to day police work is overwhelming at times, especially in a high crime, big city. Cops form tribes, like we all do, and have an "us against them" mentality. It is a very strong survival technique. I was caught up in the world of cop bars, lots of drinking and "blue light specials", as we called the groupies. I was fortunate to meet a wonderful women (an ER nurse, of course) and get married and get set straight.

Today's big city police recruit often can barely read due to the school systems. They might haved used drugs, they may have minor criminal offenses. They come with a boat load of issues. And they are expected to enforce the law, be honest, write detailed reports, testify in court and be above reproach.

Many departments require an AA degree or a bachelor's degree. They get the best and the brightest and the rest of the country gets what's left. We need higher standards for police officers, better pay and benefits along with tighter disciplinary procedures.

The cops, fireman and teachers in a local county near here are going crazy! They got a 3% raise and the Howard County, MD Council just gave themselves a 45% raise!! That's 45%!!!!!

I could go on and on with this, as all of you know, it is my passion. Thanks for the space to vent a bit.

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