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post #1 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 10:28 am Thread Starter
 
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Wink Democracy arrives in Palestine

well i never would have believed it, but it appears democracy has really taken hold in the middle east. this week the hamas party was voted in by a landslide majority of palestinian voters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

congratulations, mister president, mission accomplished!

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post #2 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 10:55 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
well i never would have believed it, but it appears democracy has really taken hold in the middle east. this week the hamas party was voted in by a landslide majority of palestinian voters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

congratulations, mister president, mission accomplished!

(which icon was it that denotes smiley sarcasm?)
democracy is democracy...you gotta take the good with the bad...bush vs clinton as example...(good/bad). Besides, this was NOT the choice that Bush wanted...you just like to blame him for all the ills of the world...nough said.

I agree this looks like trouble, but I thought you were for allowing people to put the person they wanted into power (peoples choice)...doesn't seem like fraud was commited, so it looks like something we'll just need to live with (like when Clinton admin was in power).

I welcome democracy even if my choice wasn't elected...Besides it's kind of fun bashing the other guys...Lord knows we see that here on a constant basis.

I am concerned about unrest in the mid east...who hasn't been for the last 5,000 years...

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post #3 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 11:21 am Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by justincase
democracy is democracy...you gotta take the good with the bad...bush vs clinton as example...(good/bad). Besides, this was NOT the choice that Bush wanted...you just like to blame him for all the ills of the world...nough said.

I agree this looks like trouble, but I thought you were for allowing people to put the person they wanted into power (peoples choice)...doesn't seem like fraud was commited, so it looks like something we'll just need to live with (like when Clinton admin was in power).

I welcome democracy even if my choice wasn't elected...Besides it's kind of fun bashing the other guys...Lord knows we see that here on a constant basis.

I am concerned about unrest in the mid east...who hasn't been for the last 5,000 years...
the point is we have invested more than 2,000 american lives, tens of thousands of iraqi civilian lives, and untold billions of dollars in the hopes that we could install democracy in the region and help diminish that unrest.

my question: is this the democracy we are fighting for? the right to elect terrorists with the sworn goal of eliminating israel from the map?

do we think organizations like hamas are better than saddam?

what, exactly, does "victory" in iraq mean?
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post #4 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 11:36 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
the point is we have invested more than 2,000 american lives, tens of thousands of iraqi civilian lives, and untold billions of dollars in the hopes that we could install democracy in the region and help diminish that unrest.

my question: is this the democracy we are fighting for? the right to elect terrorists with the sworn goal of eliminating israel from the map?

do we think organizations like hamas are better than saddam?

what, exactly, does "victory" in iraq mean?
We are fighting for the right of the people to elect who THEY want to run their country...not who we want...

We are fighting to allow people to be free to elect who they see fit. That's democracy, it's a sword that can cut both ways. Which is what seemed to happen here. Your side doesn't always win. but the people have the choice to set their own direction.

I'm as worried about the situation as you are. But in reality, what has really changed...this fight has gone one for thousands of years and will continue longer then anyone would like (assuming mankind lasts that long).

BTW: if the election went the other way, you'd have said it was a Bush puppet that he put into office...While I respect you, I know we won't agree on much politicly...but that's OK, I know I'm right. I do think we both agree that the Israel/Palestinian situation most likley is about to worsen.

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post #5 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 11:42 am
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Quote:
my question: is this the democracy we are fighting for? the right to elect terrorists with the sworn goal of eliminating israel from the map?
From the Merriam Webster Dictionary - Democracy:
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


I don't see anywhere here that once democracy is installed it must adhere to the desires and absolute rule of a sovereign or other government entity. That actually sounds kinda like what we're fighting against, doesn't it?

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post #6 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 11:54 am Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by justincase
We are fighting for the right of the people to elect who THEY want to run their country...not who we want.
interesting you would say that. here is a passage from MSNBC that i linked to in my first post:


"I don't see how you can be a partner in peace if you advocate destruction of a country," he said. >
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post #7 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 2:34 pm
 
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In what "direct" way does Iraq have to do with Palestine? The 2,000 Lives lost in Iraq have nothing to do with Palestine.
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post #8 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 3:59 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macker
In what "direct" way does Iraq have to do with Palestine? The 2,000 Lives lost in Iraq have nothing to do with Palestine.
I think KBandit just likes to whine about everything whether he has the facts or not. I have to wonder if he is really a Gold Wing owner (not that owning a Gold Wing is bad) just trying to upset KLT owners cause they are happy with their bikes. Just a thought.

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post #9 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:02 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by rdtebeau
I think KBandit just likes to whine about everything whether he has the facts or not. I have to wonder if he is really a Gold Wing owner (not that owning a Gold Wing is bad) just trying to upset KLT owners cause they are happy with their bikes. Just a thought.
really, randal ... are the personal attacks necessary? can't we limit ourselves to debating the issues?

you are right about the gold wings, though. i've owned a number over the years, and they have all been great bikes. but my current bike is an '03 LT.

does that make me "okay" in your book? hope so ... otherwise i'd sleep poorly.

jeez.
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post #10 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:04 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Macker
In what "direct" way does Iraq have to do with Palestine? The 2,000 Lives lost in Iraq have nothing to do with Palestine.
i think there is a direct connection between the entire arab world and what happens to the palestinians. take iran, for instance. why do you suppose they refuse to acknowledge the right of israel to exist?
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post #11 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:06 pm
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No Shit....

Evidently there is a gross misunderstanding of what we are accomplishing in Iraq, enough that people wo are left wing "Bush Haters" will look at anything that throws a negative light his direction even if it has nothing to do with Iraq.

Your point is well made...


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post #12 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:10 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
interesting you would say that. here is a passage from MSNBC that i linked to in my first post:


"I don't see how you can be a partner in peace if you advocate destruction of a country," he said. >
I support the statement "Hamas can't be peace partner without renouncing violence". Seems like a sane statement and an opportunity for continued support if the violence is stopped (about 1 out of billion chance of that happening).

I can't see supporting a Government that supports terrorism. Guess we'll have to wait to see what the new Govenorment ends up doing.

But for you...in the above discussion you seem disappointed that Hamas won, and now your upset that Bush isn't going to deal with them...

Anyway, I'd give it a few days to where things will go. There is not quick fix for thousands of years of fighting.

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post #13 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:15 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdtebeau
I think KBandit just likes to whine about everything whether he has the facts or not. I have to wonder if he is really a Gold Wing owner (not that owning a Gold Wing is bad) just trying to upset KLT owners cause they are happy with their bikes. Just a thought.
Hey wait a minute I own a Goldwing....But the KLT makes me smile and sometimes just laugh out loud because I'm so happy.

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post #14 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:23 pm Thread Starter
 
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No Shit....

Evidently there is a gross misunderstanding of what we are accomplishing in Iraq, enough that people wo are left wing "Bush Haters" will look at anything that throws a negative light his direction even if it has nothing to do with Iraq.

Your point is well made...
no shit indeed.

what we are trying to accomplish in iraq is an open question. let's recap:

- first it was to defend ourselves (WMD). none found.
- next it was to defeat an ally of al quaida. no links prior to occupation.
- now it is to free the people of iraq. to bring them democracy.

now that we've freed them it seems they are inclined to vote terrorists or muslim fundamentalists into office, as the palestinians and iranians have done.

so exactly what are we fighting for? to replace a tyrant (saddam) with a fundamentalist or a terrorist?

does this seem worth it to you?

"we are here to help you. we want you to have democracy."

that's fine. all countries SHOULD have self determination. but if we want to live by that credo then we better brace ourselves for the end result. and we should not delude ourselves into thinking that they will embrace a secular government.

to me, a much better strategy would have been to be hands-off on iraq. let them determine their own destiny.
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post #15 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:37 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
well i never would have believed it, but it appears democracy has really taken hold in the middle east. this week the hamas party was voted in by a landslide majority of palestinian voters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

congratulations, mister president, mission accomplished!

(which icon was it that denotes smiley sarcasm?)
blue highlighting added by me.

Howdy Gerhard,

I would look on it as a good thing, without sarcasm Bush has said that we don't care what democracy looks like (Iraq), but that it must be the choice of the people so that they are stake holders.

Hamas has long held itself out as the "authority" to make Palestinian's lives better. With this election the people have made Hamas "responsible" for it as well. This will put a lot of pressure on Hamas to make a difference in the Palestinian's lives, not just guns, but butter as well.

I'm mildly optimistic that they'll give up terrorism and engage in finding a political solution.



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post #16 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 5:01 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by BillyOmahaI'm mildly optimistic that they'll give up terrorism and engage in finding a political solution.[/font
.
well, bill, here's hoping you are correct.

believe it or not i would love to be DEAD WRONG about the outcome in iraq and in the occupied territories.

when sharon pulled the settlers out of the golan heights i had great hope that the region would start working toward equity and peace. now ... well, let's just say i hope you are right.

'nuff said.

BTW ... sorry for bolding your post. user error.
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post #17 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 5:17 pm
 
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Very few of our guys died in the actual assault on Iraq. Now it is a battle to keep Iraq from becoming a terrorist state. This is the deadliest part of the mission. There Is a reason why the Haters of free society are fighting so hard for this piece of desert and it isn't oil! Truth be told....We need this outpost in the region just as badly as they do. It's strategic positioning just happens to seperate Iran from just about every other unstable Islamic country in the region. A buffer, if you will, between Iran & Saudi...Iran & Syria...Iran & Jordan...and Israel by way of. Until we are sure of some type of stability, we'll have our finger on Iraq for a long, long time and rightly so.
The reason we went was never important in the big picture. I can't believe people are still quibbling over it! made up or not. If we want a future in this world...you better believe we need to be there.
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post #18 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 5:31 pm Thread Starter
 
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If we want a future in this world...you better believe we need to be there.
is that similar to the domino theory in vietnam?
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post #19 of 52 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 5:59 pm
 
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is that similar to the domino theory in vietnam?
Sorry, K but if you can't see that our very existence is being threatened like no other time in history, I'm not going to be able to convince you.
That's a good try but there just is no comparison. At that time...Communism was the greatest threat and it scared us. We had no idea where we'd be today. If Iran is able to unite these various groups to the ultimate extent and we loose the overall war on terror (Starting with Iraq)....911, the Cole, the London and first WTC Bombings, etc...are just the beginning.
Through my work, I deal with various Local, State & Federal Police and first response agencies. I can tell you that the threat of Some very serious, very large events taking place, right here at home, is very real. And anticipated! This isn't like the theory of the Domino effect durring Vietnam. This is really happening. Now!!
Gerhard, please, if we don't stop arguing politics, we're in for a lot of trouble. We have to get our heads together. This is very real.

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post #20 of 52 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 9:17 am
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Unhappy Very sad times ahead

This 'election' shows the true character of the Palestinians who, by the way, receive BILLIONS of USA $$$$ a year for aid. The peace process such as it was is now pretty much a non issue. Brace yourself for more vile acts of violence.
Teaching 6 year olds to become 'martyrs' doesn't really show any interest for peace. Now we have to deal with legitimized terrorists as a government???
Great..
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post #21 of 52 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 9:35 am Thread Starter
 
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This 'election' shows the true character of the Palestinians who, by the way, receive BILLIONS of USA $$$$ a year for aid. The peace process such as it was is now pretty much a non issue. Brace yourself for more vile acts of violence.
Teaching 6 year olds to become 'martyrs' doesn't really show any interest for peace. Now we have to deal with legitimized terrorists as a government???
Great..
i believe they are also the ones who fund pension funds for the families of suicide bombers.
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post #22 of 52 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 9:51 am
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>>Now we have to deal with legitimized terrorists as a government???<<

Yikes!!!!! Another terrorist state!!! Just like Iraq!! Let's attack them!!!
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post #23 of 52 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 7:06 pm
 
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Find some troops, and we might think about it. Any of you guys got some kids or grand kids. Then sign them up.

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post #24 of 52 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 11:36 pm
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Here is an email from our Rabbi that I received today:

Dear Temple Beth El Community,

I was disturbed at the news this morning (January 26th). Like you, all I
knew about Hamas was that this is a terrorist group. Tonight I decided to
do a little research to try and understand how Hamas could have won more
than 50% of the seats in the new Palestinian government.

First, as long as Hamas insists that wiping Israel off the map is a must, I
will not feel the need to sympathize or understand.

Second, some of you already know that I have faith, and as such, I look for
hope. I came across an interesting Jerusalem Post article that I want to
share with you. Before the article is a question with an answer that I also
find helpful.

I am open to discussion and want to hear your thoughts on the results of
this election. However, I ask that you present me with articles (which is
the closest we can come to facts) to facilitate dialogue (common articles
gives us common ground for dialogue).

Below is the information that I want to share.
L'Shalom,
Deborah

__________________________________________________ __________________________

Deborah's Question: Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam
Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an
extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques,
healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. Approximately 90
percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational
activities, writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority
often fails to provide such services; Hamas' efforts in this area as well as
a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of
corruption explain much of its popularity.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

The article that Deborah wants to share is from jpost.com:

'We wanted to be in the opposition'

By ORLY HALPERN

More than 50 percent of the Palestinian Legislative Council is theirs, and
they don't have a clue what to do next, but according to at least one Hamas
leader, talking to Israel is in the cards.

"We're examining our options," said Yasser Mansour, the No. 5 Hamas leader
told The Jerusalem Post. "We are researching each and every issue."

Indeed, a Hamas leader in Nablus, a professor at An-Najah University who did
not run, told the Post that many of the leaders were disappointed with the
results. "We didn't want this, we didn't hope for this. We wanted to be in
the opposition," he said, speaking at a green-flagged, rabble-rousing
victory rally in downtown Nablus. "Now all the responsibility is on us."

What is certain is that although it holds a majority and it can form its own
government, Hamas does not want to run the country alone. "We will speak to
all the parties and make a coalition," Mansour told the Post.

Hamas, and everyone else, expected the party to be a strong opposition. It
could probably have continued terror attacks on Israel. It could have kept
an eye on Fatah ministers and made sure the funds went where they were meant
to go. It could have voted down any bills proposed that compromised its
ideals. Let Fatah deal with the aftermath.

Forget that scenario now. Hamas won 57.5% of the PLC seats. "Instead of
being an opposition in the Palestinian Authority, we are the PA," Ahmed
Doleh, a well-spoken school principal and No. 36 on the Hamas list told the
Post at the victory rally.

Doleh, wearing a suit and tie, shook hands with numerous men, young and old,
who approached him after the rally and congratulated him.

Looking somewhat dazed at the responsibility that had fallen into the laps
of his fellow Hamas colleagues, Doleh said Hamas would deal with Israel,
like it already was doing in the municipalities, on issues that concern
day-to-day life.

"Hamas will deal with Israel on daily issues," he said, repeating Mansour's
mantra that the party is researching how to fulfill "the interests of the
Palestinian people." It is only after those talks that it will make
decisions regarding the future of the PA government.

"One of the first things we will do is become part of the Palestinian
Liberation Organization," he said, referring to the umbrella group that
makes all the important decisions and includes Palestinians in the country
and abroad. Hamas was not a member until now.

On election day, before it was known that Hamas would be the government and
not the opposition, the soft-spoken Mansour, who has been in and out of
Israeli jails since 1992, talked to the Post in a reporter's car outside a
local mosque.

He explained that the only way Hamas would end its attacks was if the
occupation ended. "Then Hamas can give peace," he said.

Mansour said Hamas will offer Israel a long-term hudna (cease-fire). "There
is no time-limit to a hudna. It depends on the sides," he said.

At that point Mansour spoke of ideology. He said that ideally Hamas would
want the world to be an Islamic state, but practically speaking it wants a
Palestinian state in all of mandatory Palestine.

"We can accept that the Israelis who were born here will be citizens in our
state," he said, adding that the Palestinian people will decide the nature
of the state. "We cannot force people to be religious."

However, Fatah voters were fearful of war, not religion, when they woke up
to discover that Hamas had a majority. "This means trouble," said an
accountant and Fatah loyalist in a coffee shop downtown. "No one can predict
what a future with Hamas will bring. Maybe there will be a fight or maybe
Hamas will resign."

He worried about the future with other countries. "We were hoping that after
the elections we could make a peace deal with the Israelis and finish this
fighting," he said. "Do you think the EU, US and Israel will support the new
Palestinian government with Hamas? If Israel does not agree to Hamas's
demands, it will mean reverting to fighting. Since they will control the
military, they will tell them to fight. The people are weak. They can't
fight."

Indeed, the security forces guarding hotels where foreign election observers
stayed had long faces. "This is terrible," said one named Majdi. "Maybe
Hamas will tell us to go to war."

Looking over at his colleagues, he asked "You guys ready for jihad?"

The line of young men in camouflage uniforms carrying assault rifles looked
up at him blankly. "No man," said one. "No way."

But hours after the results were announced, Hamas voters in Nablus said that
Hamas's victory means that it will for certain lay down its arms and give up
its ideology.

"If they were in the opposition, they would have been able to continue
attacks," said a university student named Essam as he sat in a Nablus coffee
shop with a friend, smoking a water pipe and discussing the new situation.
"But now that they are the government, they can't attack Israel."

His friend Yazen, who also voted for Hamas, looked forward to the new
situation. "Now they must talk to Israel. They have no choice. We need to
have stability and they have to bring it."


http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/hamas.html
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post #25 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 4:17 am
 
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i am from israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
i think there is a direct connection between the entire arab world and what happens to the palestinians. take iran, for instance. why do you suppose they refuse to acknowledge the right of israel to exist?
this is very bed i think that now the pice wold be wore its not good .
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post #26 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 4:35 am
 
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i am from israel

this situation is very bad for us in israel now. i dont know what will be ufter the elkshon in march. thir woes a chance for peec end now its gone shron is ill end we dont know if olmart will do something ? we hope that "peres" waiks up now
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post #27 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 11:02 am
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Originally Posted by KBandit
no shit indeed.

what we are trying to accomplish in iraq is an open question. let's recap:

- first it was to defend ourselves (WMD). none found.
- next it was to defeat an ally of al quaida. no links prior to occupation.
- now it is to free the people of iraq. to bring them democracy.

now that we've freed them it seems they are inclined to vote terrorists or muslim fundamentalists into office, as the palestinians and iranians have done.

so exactly what are we fighting for? to replace a tyrant (saddam) with a fundamentalist or a terrorist?

does this seem worth it to you?

"we are here to help you. we want you to have democracy."

that's fine. all countries SHOULD have self determination. but if we want to live by that credo then we better brace ourselves for the end result. and we should not delude ourselves into thinking that they will embrace a secular government.

to me, a much better strategy would have been to be hands-off on iraq. let them determine their own destiny.
Hindsight is 20-20

Oh yeah........let's not forget the thousands lost in the attact on the World Trade Center. Would that not be a good reason, in your mind, to "wield the mighty sword"?
The war is going as well as can be expected. We are killing those responsible for mastermining the attack(s), be it in Afganistan or Iraq. What is making this war difficult is having to deal with the thousands of "good" Islamic citizens proving safe haven for the terrorists.
How would you suggest we fight this war against terrorism?
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post #28 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 11:39 am
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>>What is making this war difficult is having to deal with the thousands of "good" Islamic citizens proving safe haven for the terrorists.<<

Pretty arrogant of us to put blame on the "thousands of good Islamic citizens of Iraq" considering the fact that we are the foreigners in THEIR land.
Wouldn't we be doing the same if a foreign country occupies ours and forces their type of governance? Just because our democratic form of government works for us does not necessarily mean it will work for every other country. Take some countries in Latin America, Southeast Asia, etc.....
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post #29 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 1:49 pm
 
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I responded earlier in the thread to this line of reasoning. Maybe we should Bottle our selves up and do nothing as it appears some wish we would do but as I eluded to earlier, we do that and we are in for some serious trouble. Not that we are not in trouble now but.....
As I mentioned, Iraq's strategic importance just doesn't seem clear to some. This isn't the Sixties and this isn't the "Communist Domino theory".
Maybe when the sh!/ starts to really hit the proverbial fan here at home, people will wake the heck up!
No....we'll blame our entire existence and 230 years of history, on Bush! While these barbarians try there damndest to return us to the 7th century.
A hands off aproach didn't get us anywhere before world war II. It didn't get us anywhere for the Bay of Pigs. It certainly didn't get us anywhere durring Vietnam war. Not just for the obvious reasons but even today there are American supporters running for their lives in the jungles of South East Asia. Hoping not to have their entire families exterminated.
Even the French are starting to wake up!!
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post #30 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 5:35 pm Thread Starter
 
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was iraq strategically important before the war? now that we know there were no WMD? if not ... what's changed?

iraq does not compare to europe during wwii ... they were never bent on world domination. liberating kuwait was the right thing to do, but not invading iraq.

one more point: the 9/11 highjackers were predominantly saudis trained in afghanistan ... iraq had nothing to do with it.

so i ask again ... why are we in iraq?

french waking up? it appears they are a heckuva lot more awake than we are.
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post #31 of 52 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 7:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
was iraq strategically important before the war? now that we know there were no WMD? if not ... what's changed?

iraq does not compare to europe during wwii ... they were never bent on world domination. liberating kuwait was the right thing to do, but not invading iraq.

one more point: the 9/11 highjackers were predominantly saudis trained in afghanistan ... iraq had nothing to do with it.

so i ask again ... why are we in iraq?

french waking up? it appears they are a heckuva lot more awake than we are.
Iraq is, was, strategically important to our American way of life. It is one of the battle grounds of this war. Why do you think that all these religious fanatic terrorists are flocking to the area to support their Islamic brothers. This support also holds true for the "good Muslims?" who are harboring these religious terrorists.

It is a war we are in, be it religious, economic or philosophic. The people who live in these Muslim counties, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, ect. ultimately can either be our friends (not likely), neutral (again not likely) or friends of our enemy. If they support our enemy then they are our enemy, simple as that.

The radical Isamists are most certaintly bent on world domination, ie. you believe what they do or they want you (and your wife, children ect.) dead.
I personally don't care what religion (or no religion) you want to practice but if others believe that we should be killed if we don't follow them, well they are calling for the fight.

And BTW when the fight comes to me I do not care to have the French watching my backside.
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I have been trying to confirm this but...It has recently been reported that documents have been uncovered showing that as many as 57 commercial plane-loads of WMD were flown to Syria, from Iraq's Baghdad International Airport just as the offensive was beginning. I doubt this changes anything in anyones mind. I don't recall anyone ever proving that there were or still are no WMD's in Iraq?!

Plus, the fact that the hijackers were Saudi has nothing at all to do with it. It is the ideology that we are fighting here. It transends all borders, including our own. There is an influx of Muslim youths from England, France, Canada and virtually every country in the world traveling to IRAQ (the battleground) to take part in this Jihad. No, Iraq itself was not bent on world domination. If that were the case, this would be easy and this war would be over by now.

Yes, when you hear the French threaten Iran with Nukes, you could say they are taking things a little more seriously. Maybe they are waking up to the fact that they are a little closer to the front line than they had hoped they would be.
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post #33 of 52 Old Jan 29th, 2006, 3:10 pm
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I personally don't care what religion (or no religion) you want to practice but if others believe that we should be killed if we don't follow them, well they are calling for the fight.
Good point. So fanatic christians are also terrorists for trying to destroy Islam and its followers (they have been trying to do this since the crusades).

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post #34 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 6:17 am
 
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And how was Iraq connected to the World trade center?
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I have been trying to confirm this but...It has recently been reported
reported by whom? fox news? the same "journalists" who reported the discovery of a huge cache of mortars laced with chemical weapons?

don't you think that by now, with all the iraqui officers we've talked to and all the soldiers we work with ... after all this time if there had been any significant WMDs, we would have found them?

what about all the satellite images we've seen in the buildup to war of trucks moving chemical weapon? chemical production facilities? chemical ali?

the al quaida training camps in northern iraq? all evaporated.

doesn't it smell a bit fishy to you?
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post #36 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 11:26 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
don't you think that by now, with all the iraqui officers we've talked to and all the soldiers we work with ... after all this time if there had been any significant WMDs, we would have found them?

doesn't it smell a bit fishy to you?

No. A significant amount of WMD can be burried in a hole the size of a single Military Truck. Even smaller. In a country roughly the same size as Texas with a war being waged? Could take forever to find...Assuming they are still in the country.

I take everything I hear reported on any news cast with a grain of salt. Especially CNN after their little Cheney broadcast a couple of months ago. Remember, Fox is owned by much more left leaning SKY news out of the U.K.
But I don't believe it was Fox.....NPR????

You forget, I don't care much about WMD. This is not because I am a Bush fan. As I have said before. I am not a Neocon and I certainly am not going to follow a party blindly just because the conservative ideology happens to be holding the reigns currently. Fishy or not, WMD's are old news in my book.
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post #37 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 11:48 am
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Quote:
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You forget, I don't care much about WMD. This is not because I am a Bush fan. As I have said before. I am not a Neocon and I certainly am not going to follow a party blindly just because the conservative ideology happens to be holding the reigns currently. Fishy or not, WMD's are old news in my book.
I hate to get back into this...but you need to remember that those opposed to this WAR only have the same old tired point, No WMDs, Bush Lied, Mission isn't over....

They never see the glowing successes we've made in Iraq which have been stated in this sites forum many times (too numerous to recount) and which they choose to ignore.

All the items they spew are from the talking point websites which they parrot. That's why I stop trying to communicate, all I hear is echoing of their talking points.

If you disagree, your a follower of Bush, Rush, Hanity...and can't think on your own...
If you agree with them your a free thinker like Kerry, Clinton(either one, you pick), Kennedy, Bird.

My 2 cents...Either mind won't be able to change the others. Such is life.

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post #38 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 11:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macker
....As I mentioned, Iraq's strategic importance just doesn't seem clear to some. This isn't the Sixties and this isn't the "Communist Domino theory"....

While these barbarians try there damndest to return us to the 7th century.
...
Howdy Mike,

Remembering a show from the '70's, "I can name that tune in four words", "Oil and Islamic Fanaticism."

The US policy in the Middle East has always been, at least since the end of WWII, that the governments there will be "friendly" with the U.S., "OR ELSE", and that no other power, at the time namely the Soviet Union, will interfere there without our consent, "OR ELSE".

During Carter's administration, in one of his more assertive moments, he stated what is known as the "Carter Doctrine":
Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

The second, related and more immediate reason for our interjecting ourselves into the region is Islamic Extremism. Here is an excerpt from something I wrote some while back that may explain:
This war is the pursuit of something that is bigger than WMD's, or 9-11, or Osama bin Laden, or his own limitations. It is the pursuit for the source of our fear, the true source of terrorism. That source is the result of the historical American indifference to the undemocratic, repressive, unsuccessful and economically failed middle east in the pursuit of an uninterrupted oil supply. The end result is millions of bored, poor, frustrated, oppressed and impressionable people looking for something, such as religiously fanatical hatred of America, as a distraction in their pathetic lives. There is similarity to Germany prior to WW II and the conditions giving rise to the Nazi's. This war is an attempt to create a new model for these failed societies to emulate. Iraq may become a democracy that can prove to rest of the region that the citizens can have a say in their future. If our action is successful, the true source of Islamic extremist terrorism may be diminished and ultimately destroyed. Should we fail, that failure will demand a high price.



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post #39 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 1:01 pm
 
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Bill

Bill, Very good post.


You'll never hear me say that Oil is not part of our Agenda. Part of the big picture, if you will. Some use this in their Rhetorical talking points against the war and the Administration. Obviously, without oil we could be strangled within our own borders. I'm glad you pointed out that it was Carter quoted as observing this.

As far as promoting Democracy and a model society for the Islamic people to emulate....I'm not as optimistic it could ever happen. My personnal view is..that's rhetoric used by "the other side". It'll never happen. Been tried for thousands of years. Sounds good but at this point, all we can do is contain the fanaticism and try to create some sort of balance in the region. I just wish both sides could see things for what I think they really are and stop with all the rhetoric to appease each other.
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post #40 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 1:37 pm
 
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Originally Posted by rspyder
Good point. So fanatic christians are also terrorists for trying to destroy Islam and its followers (they have been trying to do this since the crusades).
I'm not sure if you get your history from a movie or what? I might suggest you read up on the Crusades and how Islam was spread. Particularly to the Balkans. You might want to consider the vast history of the region.
All through Eastern Europe for that matter. And Africa. The Former Czech republic, Yugoslavia, Turkey. Fanatical Islam was knocking at the door of Eastern France and the conversion process was not being carried out through the work of missionaries. It was through attrition. After the Women and girls were raped and most of the Men and newborns had their heads cut off, they were given the option to convert! Look at the Sudan today! Murder, Rape. Hundreds of Thousands being killed while we sit and do nothing. Give me an example of Christians doing that today in the name of Christianity!!!
Talk to one of the Serbian migrants in your area, you might get the true story of what was happening in the former Yugoslavia. Milosevech was a pig, no doubt...but he was a product of centuries of Islamic oppression and terrorism in it's many forms.
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post #41 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 2:06 pm
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I love the line of thought through this whole thread. Most of it nonsense. But since we're talking nonsense and wild fantasies, imagine if you will a world where China had previously stated in similarly strong words that the Persian Gulf and the free flow of oil were strategic to its economic future. Do you think for a moment that there wouldn't be a million Chinese solders stringing up insurgents and innocents alike on world wide TV, not giving shit about it, and occupying all 18 countries that make up the Middle East (including Israel)?

Today, China benefits from our involvement, allowing the US to take on the economic and military burden. But the tide is quickly turning in China. If Islamic Fundamentalism begins to rise in China (as it is on their western frontier), our military activities in the Middle East will look like the Boy Scout Jamboree in comparison to China's involvement. It wasn't too long ago that China considered occupying Afghanistan because of the Taliban destroying ancient statues of the Great Buddas of Bamiyan. Put China's oil supply at risk, and there ain't an army on the planet that could stop them (with conventional forces). And as China has proven time and time again, world opinion, particularly the press, means nothing to them (i.e., no distractions in getting the job done).


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post #42 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 2:49 pm
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Quote:
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....Today, China benefits from our involvement, allowing the US to take on the economic and military burden......
Oh, so true Jeff.

I remember the first Gulf War and how Japan "subsidized" the U.S. in the war by buying all the ordinance that the U.S. expended... to the tune of $50 billion. Note: ordinance inventories left over from the Viet Nam war. Japan's oil supply was threatened and that was not in the U.S. or Japan's interest.

Now the Chinese are doing something along the same lines. While the U.S. is deficit spending to "beat the band" during this war, the Chinese are graciously buying up U.S. Treasury notes at the very low interest rates we're offering. This allows the U.S. to have both "guns and butter",..... not to mention allowing the U.S. consumer to buy more goods made in, all together now....., China.

It's a long walk from China to the Middle East. It's far cheaper to let the U.S. maintain the flow of oil for China than for them to have to invest in building a military transport system of the magnitude necessary.

The U.S. is the world's de facto policeman. As long as we don't abuse the position too badly we'll get to keep the job AND get compensation for it.


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post #43 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 3:32 pm Thread Starter
 
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so let me see if i've got this straight. china is a totalitarian, dictatorial regime that kills people who step too far out of line. they would also kill anyone who gets between them and their oil.

given that ... it is perfectly fine for us to occupy iraq and pay the penalty for doing so. after all the chinese would do it. so should we.

excuse me, but the last time i checked we live in something called a democracy. we value things like human rights. we believe in things like peace.

we don't like it when our people die. we try to avoid it unless there is no choice.

maybe i'm the only one who feels that way but i always thought the things that made this country great are democracy and checks and balances. every four years we get to vote. one branch of government has oversite over others. the press looks over everyone's shoulders. there is due process of law.

we've already given the feds the right to wiretap at their whim. i guess the next step is to follow china's lead? instead of tianenman square we can mow down students protesting in berkeley, without repercussion?

that's pretty sad and pathetic.

one other point ... no bush admin official would ever confess that our actions in iraq are about oil. in fact they've denied it vehemently, and repeatedly. is this the fourth agenda? the true agenda? out of the closet at last?
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post #44 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 4:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
It's a long walk from China to the Middle East. It's far cheaper to let the U.S. maintain the flow of oil for China than for them to have to invest in building a military transport system of the magnitude necessary.
Actually, it's not a stretch. Afghanistan is on China's western borders. With a land link, China could easily pour into the Persian Gulf area.


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post #45 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 4:15 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
so let me see if i've got this straight. china is a totalitarian, dictatorial regime that kills people who step too far out of line. they would also kill anyone who gets between them and their oil.
I know what you mean, but in point of fact, the U.S., literally, kills people that get "out of line" too and have fought at least one war when someone tried to get between us and "our" oil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
given that ... it is perfectly fine for us to occupy iraq and pay the penalty for doing so. after all the chinese would do it. so should we.
Uh...that's not exactly the point I was trying to make...., but even if it were true, then I'd go with the conclusion. Yes, I want the U.S. military to keep the rest of world sitting at home without the ability to "project" power.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
excuse me, but the last time i checked we live in something called a democracy. we value things like human rights. we believe in things like peace.
Agreed. Although we are a "representative democracy" and those that represent us, Democrats and Republicans, are, hopefully, looking at the BIG picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
we don't like it when our people die. we try to avoid it unless there is no choice.
If that is true, then you advocate pacifism. There is always a choice to not fight, however there are some things worth fighting for. Yes, oil is one of them. Freedom from terrorists is another. Freedom from reliving the Cold War with China may be another.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
maybe i'm the only one who feels that way but i always thought the things that made this country great are democracy and checks and balances. every four years we get to vote. one branch of government has oversite over others. the press looks over everyone's shoulders. there is due process of law.
It is as long as you remember to vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
we've already given the feds the right to wiretap at their whim. i guess the next step is to follow china's lead? instead of tianenman square we can mow down students protesting in berkeley, without repercussion?

that's pretty sad and pathetic.
No comment except, "step back from the edge".


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
one other point ... no bush admin official would ever confess that our actions in iraq are about oil. in fact they've denied it vehemently, and repeatedly. is this the fourth agenda? the true agenda? out of the closet at last?
I wouldn't expect that they would. Oil is an indirect issue in that failing to deal with Islamic extremism puts the oil supply at risk.



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post #46 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 4:34 pm Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
[font=Comic Sans MS]If that is true, then you advocate pacifism. There is always a choice to not fight, however there are some things worth fighting for. Yes, oil is one of them. Freedom from terrorists is another. Freedom from reliving the Cold War with China may be another.
i'm not as skillful with the quote manipulations as you are so i'll just take this one point because i think it is central.

anyone who knows me can tell you that i am not necessarily a pacifist. no one cheered more than i did when we invaded afghanistan because that was the country harboring the bastards behind 9/11 (pardon the harsh language but nothing else really fits).

and if it is really true that oil is the reason behind iraq and that "oil is worth fighting for," (and by extension, dying for) then why weren't we told the truth up front? why aren't americans being leveled with?

i don't know about you, but i really dislike when i am lied to ... and i really, really dislike it if my friends and neighbors are dying or losing arms and legs as a result of that lie.

the sad truth is, if this is all about oil then it is doubly stupid, because we were in no danger of losing that oil. all we had to do was contain saddam and we could've had all we wanted. the real issue is the PRICE of that oil. in essence we are dying to save a few bucks at the gas pumps.

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post #47 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 5:00 pm
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Worth the fight...

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Originally Posted by KBandit
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
If that is true, then you advocate pacifism. There is always a choice to not fight, however there are some things worth fighting for. Yes, oil is one of them. Freedom from terrorists is another. Freedom from reliving the Cold War with China may be another.
i'm not as skillful with the quote manipulations as you are so i'll just take this one point because i think it is central.
Fair enough, Gerhard. Let's have a go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
anyone who knows me can tell you that i am not necessarily a pacifist. no one cheered more than i did when we invaded afghanistan because that was the country harboring the bastards behind 9/11 (pardon the harsh language but nothing else really fits).
I wouldn't hold it against you, or anyone for that matter, if they were a true pacifist. If one is not a pacifist, then it's just a matter of where one would "draw the line" to fight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
and if it is really true that oil is the reason behind iraq and that "oil is worth fighting for," (and by extension, dying for) then why weren't we told the truth up front? why aren't americans being leveled with?
As I had said in another reply to ...?, it's not the primary reason, but further down the list of reasons, or maybe "indirectly connected". Bear in mind that when "selling" something to anyone, you don't talk about everything to make the sale. You stick to the one or two things that are important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
i don't know about you, but i really dislike when i am lied to ... and i really, really dislike it if my friends and neighbors are dying or losing arms and legs as a result of that lie.
I would be upset if I was lied to, I just don't think I am being lied to. I've taken the time to read Wolfowitz memo and speaches on Iraq and it is very clear what the intent of this war is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
the sad truth is, if this is all about oil then it is doubly stupid, because we were in no danger of losing that oil. all we had to do was contain saddam and we could've had all we wanted. the real issue is the PRICE of that oil. in essence we are dying money to save a few bucks at the gas pumps.
If it's worth fighting for, then it's worth fighting to prevent ridiculously high prices. I remember the clamoring during the early '70s oil embargo. Lot's of calls to use the military to lower the price. Fortunately, it was explained to the Saudi's in terms that they would understand, that it was in their interest to let us buy it from them at a "reasonable" price without interruption. They seem to have understood the message for the last 30 years.



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post #48 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 5:09 pm
 
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Gerhard, the way of the world is pretty complicated. I've heard you talk about moderate and balanced aproaches to these subjects but now you're taking up an extreme leftist view of things....No one would suggest we start mowing down Berkely students.
Althoooough.......
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post #49 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 5:13 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Macker
Gerhard, the way of the world is pretty complicated. I've heard you talk about moderate and balanced aproaches to these subjects but now you're taking up an extreme leftist view of things....No one would suggest we start mowing down Berkely students.
Althoooough.......
hey, berkeley students are a breed unto themselves! all i can say is: if you ever visit the campus, bring your camera ... but not your AK!

i agree the world is a complex place. the old, "you're either for us or against us" just don't work, IMHO.
KBandit is offline  
post #50 of 52 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 5:40 pm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 128
Wink That's why I triked mine.

Too much politics - we all know we should just nuke the whole middle east, turn the place into a big bowl of cat litter and let Allah sort it all out. That is, of course, after we have invaded and taken over France.
allen is offline  
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