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post #1 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 6:26 am Thread Starter
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We the People

{copied from my church's Sunday bulletin}
The Preamble to the United States Constitution states, “We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility. Provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.’ The founding Fathers, as stated above, intended to secure the ‘blessings of Liberty’ not only for that initial generation of the new nation, but for their posterity. In 1973, that direction was suddenly thrown into severe reverse when the Supreme Court arbitrarily declared that many of out posterity were no longer automatically entitled to the Blessings of Liberty and could be deprived of life itself (the Roe v. Wade abortion decision). Posterity, in the collective is used in the Preamble as it refers to all future generations, that is, all descendants of that founding generation of Americans for all generations. By definition, posterity refers to the unborn, whether or not Congress or the States define the unborn as ‘persons,’ and therefore the Supreme Court, in its 1973 decision legalizing the killing of many of our posterity, has abolished the very reason for establishing the Constitution,… In effect the Constitution has been overthrown for all future generations since we are now ‘free’ to kill our posterity with impunity.” Br. Charles Madden, OFM CONV., quoted in the January – March 2006 issue of “Immaculata” magazine.

Mike Kiesel

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post #2 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 6:36 am
 
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Thumbs down

I thought this was a bike site. If I wanted a political/divisive/polarizing discussion, I'd go to a political site.
Yuck.
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post #3 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 7:36 am
 
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With all due respect Mr. Samra, this IS the Chit Chat forum. BMWLT.com consists of nearly 50 forums (counting all of it's sub-forums). And all but one are motorcycle related. The Chit Chat forum is reserved for just that . . . CHIT CHAT. It's open to all topics. This is the forum where I tend to talk about my Ninja, the crappy weather of Ohio, computers, music, and whatever else I feel like chatting about that day. I do tend to stay away from topics of religion and politics...but there are those that do not.

I recommend you simply ignoring these threads, because they ain't going away anytime soon. I guarantee ya...
[/hijack]



Mike . . . Amen!

But, I doubt that you'll change one mind in here with this post. People hearts and minds are changed through life and through God. Not through words on a computer screen.

I mean no offense, and I know you're heart is in the right place.

Be blessed,
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post #4 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:06 am
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Another blatant case of reading into a document what someone wants to see, not what is actually there.

Adding comments relating to a terribly broad interpretation, then expecting everyone to toe the same line is really stretching credibility.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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post #5 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:08 am
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a stretch of a definition in defense of a cause.
Pure B.S.

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post #6 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:13 am
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lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties

1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.


All this applies to the mother also, doesn't it? Just checking.

Dave Hoogerland

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post #7 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:18 am
 
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man oh man are you guys ever cracking open a big ol' can o' worms.
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post #8 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:32 am
 
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So, it's a bad thing to kill my posterior? I can tell you, my ass is one happy part of my body right now
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post #9 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:36 am
 
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Originally Posted by rixchard
So, it's a bad thing to kill my posterior? I can tell you, my ass is one happy part of my body right now
richard, you SAVAGE you.

GGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......... ..
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post #10 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:40 am
 
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You should all the other replies I typed and then disgarded
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post #11 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 10:59 am
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Can't we go back to reminiscing about BB Gun wars and stuff like that?


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post #12 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 1:16 pm
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Really Mike, do you want to start this whole debate here? I didn't think so.

Obviously some might agree with your position (supported as it is by a blatant misinterpretation), and some don't agree. But no one will change their minds, period.

Arguing about the right to an abortion is trying to impose your own beliefs on a symptom, while ignoring the actual problem. Once an abortion becomes a definite consideration, you're already several months beyond the original issue. Rather than fight over a woman's right to choose, shouldn't we figure out how to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place? After all, we do know where babies come from, and how to deal with that (be it abstinence, safe and effective birth control, or other methods).

It's like adding air bags to motorcycles, when it is much better to teach people how to ride and avoid potential crashes in the first place, and to teach cagers and truckers to notice and respect bikes.

But that raises much larger societal issues, whereas it's much easier to just assume you're right and then impose your beliefs on everyone else.

Ken
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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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Last edited by meese; Jan 25th, 2006 at 2:41 pm.
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post #13 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 1:39 pm
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I'm confident I'll answer to the man for what I have done in this life... That's all I have to worry about. Good Bad or Indifferent, you will too..

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out !!!


John

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post #14 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 2:01 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
Can't we go back to reminiscing about BB Gun wars and stuff like that?
all i know is, one christmas my dad bought me a .177-caliber benjamin pump pellet rifle, while all my friends still had daisy BB guns. for about a year I WAS GOD, and no snake or beer can within sight was safe.
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post #15 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 2:42 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpspen
Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out !!!
OK John, but only if you go first.

Ken
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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #16 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 2:59 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
OK John, but only if you go first.
does this mean we are all gonna drink some koolaid and hitch a ride on a passing comet? if so i think i'll be out riding that day ....
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post #17 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 4:05 pm
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Mike,

Since this is a motorcycle site, I'll just report that while hooking my Battery Tender up to the LT today, I agreed with you wholeheartedly and can't wait for spring to take my two adopted children for a ride on my LT...one at a time, of course.

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post #18 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 4:22 pm
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The Benjamins were the Holy Grail of BB Guns. My friend had one, and he could take out frogletts (what tadpoles become just before they become full fledged frogs) at what seemed like 100 yards. I was lucky to get 1 out of 10 with my Daisy Powerline 880.

But the BB Gun wars were the best. We had 2 variations. (1) Two warring factions, and (2) Hunt the sniper. Since I had no fear of heights (we lived in an area with great canyons, caves, and other nice hiding places), I got to play sniper a lot. Hang out in some cave upside a 40-50ft cliff, picking off the other team one by one. Ah, those were the days... up until someone sends up a M80 with the wrist rocket into the cave you were hiding in.


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post #19 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 5:00 pm
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Dave, good for you for being part of the solution, rather than just whining about it all or forcing your beliefs on others. I have several friends who have adopted, for a variety of reasons, and I respect the effort and expense involved.

I sometimes wish natural birth had as many requirements as adoption. Sure would solve a lot of problems.

Ken
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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #20 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 5:54 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
The Benjamins were the Holy Grail of BB Guns. My friend had one, and he could take out frogletts (what tadpoles become just before they become full fledged frogs) at what seemed like 100 yards. I was lucky to get 1 out of 10 with my Daisy Powerline 880.

But the BB Gun wars were the best. We had 2 variations. (1) Two warring factions, and (2) Hunt the sniper. Since I had no fear of heights (we lived in an area with great canyons, caves, and other nice hiding places), I got to play sniper a lot. Hang out in some cave upside a 40-50ft cliff, picking off the other team one by one. Ah, those were the days... up until someone sends up a M80 with the wrist rocket into the cave you were hiding in.
Isn't it amazing we all played games like this growing up and are all still alive? Kids today have no idea what they are missing out on, what with they safety coated playgrounds and rubber soft-filled landing zones for slides 3 feet high! How many of your scars (physical, not emotional) were acquired when having one of the best times of your life as a kid? I know a couple of mine were. We even had a designated spot in a creek behind some houses where you'd meet to have a fight if one of your buddies ticked you off. If it had rained everyone would get in on the action, it was more fun and we could all get muddy!

David Taylor
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post #21 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 7:28 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
Isn't it amazing we all played games like this growing up and are all still alive? ...
Only got one eye, but still kick'n!!!


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post #22 of 55 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 8:01 pm
 
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Hoog62,, yes it applies to the mother BUT try to remember that it also applies to the the baby at 8 months, thats the third trimester...

The law states to constitute life there must be a heart beat and brain waves, at 8 months the fetus has both, just give birth and the fetus is totally viable!!
But no,,, let the mother decide at the last minute she don't want it and the doctor sticks his suction line through the skull removes the brain and every bodies happy right???? Anybody who thinks that is ok is well...........

I'm glad that RoevWade is going to get changed,,, let the states set their own laws as it should be.. I expect most states that keep abortion will be blue states and allot of them will probably go with a 1st trimester only law........Regards Pete
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post #23 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:41 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties

1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.


All this applies to the mother also, doesn't it? Just checking.
So you are suggesting that anything goes for everyone. Isn't that the definition of anarchy?

Mike Kiesel

Medina, Ohio
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post #24 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:58 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Arguing about the right to an abortion is trying to impose your own beliefs on a symptom, while ignoring the actual problem. Once an abortion becomes a definite consideration, you're already several months beyond the original issue. Rather than fight over a woman's right to choose, shouldn't we figure out how to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place? After all, we do know where babies come from, and how to deal with that (be it abstinence, safe and effective birth control, or other methods).

It's like adding air bags to motorcycles, when it is much better to teach people how to ride and avoid potential crashes in the first place, and to teach cagers and truckers to notice and respect bikes.

But that raises much larger societal issues, whereas it's much easier to just assume you're right and then impose your beliefs on everyone else.
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that since the majority of Americans would like to see more restrictions on abortions, then that would be like adding airbags to motorcycles? Or are you saying that our present situatuation where abortion remains any easy remedy to a complex problem is like adding airbags to motorcycles?

Mike Kiesel

Medina, Ohio
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post #25 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 9:29 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkiesel
I'm confused. --------- since the majority of Americans would like to see more restrictions on abortions, ----------
Again, more conjecture and believing what one wants to believe, not necessarily what is real. One can read "facts" all over the internet and in the news media to back up anything you want to believe. There are plenty of them for everyone. Which ones are really factual though? Anybody's guess.

I would like to see a real vote on the issue, not a politically or religiously driven GUESS!

I personally believe that a woman should be able to make that decision, if done EARLY, and men should have NO say in it. It kinda drives me up the wall seeing MEN trying to say what is best for women to do, when it affects them not in the least.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #26 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 10:35 am
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Never had a girlfriend/wife get pregnant with a baby you wanted to keep, huh?

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post #27 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 11:58 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Never had a girlfriend/wife get pregnant with a baby you wanted to keep, huh?
If married, that is a decision between the husband and wife. If not married, it should be the woman's decision in my opinion.

What I was trying to say, and as usual did not spell it out far enough, was that in my opoinion anyone not immediately involved in that situation should not be telling others what to do about it when it does not affect them in any way (other than religious belief, which again should have NO bearing on the subject beyond them).

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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post #28 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 1:07 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
I personally believe that a woman should be able to make that decision, if done EARLY.
I see even you want abortions more restrictive than they are now - you even capitalized your restriction to emphasize it.

Mike Kiesel

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post #29 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 1:14 pm
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I would like to see the Government go back to being our Father and quit being our Mother.

Dad says: Son that will hurt if you do that and then let the kid find out for himself.
Mom wants to protect us from ourselves by imposing all kinds of ridicules rules and ideas. like seatbelts, airbags. Mom would have had a heart attack if she knew about bb gun wars.
Like riding motorcycles, dad says son that thing is dangerous, watch out for yourself.
Mom says: You'll have one of those over my dead body and has both funerals planned.

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post #30 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 2:05 pm
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Black, White...Gray

The issue raised was Abortion. A polarizing topic to say the least.

I start my argument with defining the two extremes so as to find common ground with most individuals on either side of the issue. To agree on something which moves each side off the "absolutism" that promotes the shrillness of the discussion.

Not a person-
- A human sperm is not person.
- A human ovum is not a person.
- The instant the two cells are put together they are not yet a person.
- After cellular division, but without differentiation, does not constitute a person.

A person-
- An baby the moment after exiting the Mother's body and taking a breath of air is a person.
- A full term fetus the moment its head is is outside of the Mother is a person.
- A full term fetus the moment any part of its body is outside of the Mother is a person.
- A full term fetus the instant before it begins to exit the Mother's body is a person.
- A near full term fetus that is viable outside the Mother's body is a person.

Somewhere in between the end points of each "reasonable person's absolute" is the transition from merely cells with no need to protect them and a human person that must be protected. The debate is, and should be, about where in between the two the line should be drawn.

What Roe vs. Wade is about is an assertion that the State "cannot" interfere in the early part, that the State "may" interfere in the disputed middle part and the State "absolutely may" interfere in the last part.

The extremists on either side come up with ridiculous positions in order to avoid engaging in serious debate. Pro Abortion extremists say that the State cannot outlaw "partial birth" abortions because that abridges the Mother's rights. Pro Life extremists say that life begins at conception in order to protect a "person".

Few, if any, on this board agree with either of those two extremist positions listed. Roe v. Wade absolutely allows the State to stop "partial birth abortions " (Third Trimester) and absolutely prevents the State on abortion grounds (First Trimester) from interfering with the use of IUD's (which prevent post conception ovum from maturing). Roe v. Wade allows the States to tackle the tough middle ground (Second Trimester) as best each State can, recognizing that it is territory that is very difficult to find consensus.


.

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Last edited by BillyOmaha; Jan 26th, 2006 at 6:05 pm.
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post #31 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 2:35 pm
 
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Bury Religion

The supposed "good book" was written by humans in the first place... which makes it laughable; many of them dim witted and uneducated... especially in comparision to what's available in information today. And it gets even funnier when contemporary humans try to interpret it and make use of it. Human beings will make a huge step forward, only when religion is dead and buried - where it belongs!
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post #32 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 3:25 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrod Maguire
The supposed "good book" was written by humans in the first place... which makes it laughable; many of them dim witted and uneducated... especially in comparision to what's available in information today. And it gets even funnier when contemporary humans try to interpret it and make use of it. Human beings will make a huge step forward, only when religion is dead and buried - where it belongs!
I am sure, Jerrod, that many of those "dim witted and uneducated", as you call them, would have reason to quibble with you. Especially when you argue that information today is 'superior" -- even though modern day science is constantly updating and changing it's conclusions.

For thousands of years people have declared that God is dead, the Bible is false, and that man, "taking a huge step forward" has become the "ultimate" in the evolutionary chain. However, neither God nor the Bible have gone away, sorry. God and the Bible never will go away. No matter how hard you try to make them disappear, God and His Word are still here and will remain after you are long gone.

But then again, when death comes for you, you will know the Truth because then you will see God face-to-face. Too bad it will be too late at that point in your history.

Not trying to change your mind on this, it is your choice to believe as you do, just sharing my 2 cents worth.


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post #33 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 3:46 pm
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post #34 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 4:52 pm
 
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Originally Posted by Chick
I am sure, Jerrod, that many of those "dim witted and uneducated", as you call them, would have reason to quibble with you. Especially when you argue that information today is 'superior" -- even though modern day science is constantly updating and changing it's conclusions.

For thousands of years people have declared that God is dead, the Bible is false, and that man, "taking a huge step forward" has become the "ultimate" in the evolutionary chain. However, neither God nor the Bible have gone away, sorry. God and the Bible never will go away. No matter how hard you try to make them disappear, God and His Word are still here and will remain after you are long gone.

But then again, when death comes for you, you will know the Truth because then you will see God face-to-face. Too bad it will be too late at that point in your history.

Not trying to change your mind on this, it is your choice to believe as you do, just sharing my 2 cents worth.
Some things we will never know nor understand chick... that is the state of human affairs. However, many scientific conclusions have been made and are here to stay (i.e. most don't think that god is mad at us when it storms anymore or when it doesn't rain enough, we understand better the weather patterns now - unless you are the mayor of New Orleans or Pat Robertson). Perhaps you still sacrifice animals... who knows, most don't anymore.

I've read the very fictional and hypocritical bible, taken religious courses in college and spent time growing up and being confirmed in church. Moreover, I'm well read in Einstein's Theory of Relativity and Schrodinger's Cat (a.k.a Quantum Theory - though I don't presume to fully understand the latter and I don't know anyone who does). Furthermore, I've read the entire classic series of "The History of Philosophy" by F. Copleston (9 volumes which includes the medieval period) among many other books and periodicals over the years. Not just boasting... it is what it is. People who jog tend to run faster than those who don't - you catch my drift? The point is, more than most, I understand fully that much is not what it seems, but I'm not willing to create the answers to the big questions much like religion does and those who support it.

No need to apologize as you did... murder, rape, war, hatred, intolerance, et cetera, will not go away no matter how hard I try to make them disappear, yet they have been around for time immemorial and they will be here long after I'm gone too, in fact, as long as humans continue to walk the earth. But remember Chick... long periods of time and being old in years does not make something real or true.

God spent millions upon millions of years leading up to human beings and this is the best he can do? He's all good and all knowing... and this it? What a mess for the majority of human beings who live in it.

And if you were not trying to change my mind, you could have fooled me.
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post #35 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 5:52 pm
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I would go far as to say that the decision should always involve both parties, married or not. Both should be involved, but it is ultimately the woman's decision.

Myself, I believe there is no good reason to abort any fetus (short of saving the mothers life), and I would make that very well known should the situation occur to a close family member. I would advise, yet accept either decision as it is (as I said) ultimately the womans decision.

I guess that makes me pro-choice.

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post #36 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 6:01 pm
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Is that what you deciphered from my post?

Wow....

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post #37 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 7:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrod Maguire
And if you were not trying to change my mind, you could have fooled me.
Jerrod,
I was not at all trying to change your mind -- you have already made your decision. I was attempting -- albeit not very well -- to communicate that there are those of us who are "foolish" enough to believe in the God of the Bible and have faith in Him rather than faith in man.

I know that there are many who disagree with my position today, however I also know that, at least in this country, I have the right to believe it even if you and many others don't.

So, all of your education and philosphy can not change my mind, try as you might. As the Good Book says, "All of the wisdom of man is as foolishness to God."

God bless:


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post #38 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 8:23 pm
 
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Originally Posted by Chick
Jerrod,
I was not at all trying to change your mind -- you have already made your decision. I was attempting -- albeit not very well -- to communicate that there are those of us who are "foolish" enough to believe in the God of the Bible and have faith in Him rather than faith in man.

I know that there are many who disagree with my position today, however I also know that, at least in this country, I have the right to believe it even if you and many others don't.

So, all of your education and philosphy can not change my mind, try as you might. As the Good Book says, "All of the wisdom of man is as foolishness to God."

God bless:
Understood and I respect your perspective... and I'm aware that I may be wrong; I always leave room for that. However, many others never consider that possibility... at least not out loud. It takes strength sometimes to say that you just don't know for sure.
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post #39 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 8:49 pm
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In response to those that think abortion is OK.

Do you know personally, not just some one at the office or a second cousin you see once a year, that has had a abortion?

If you really do, then how did it affect them? Was as simple as a bowel movement? How did they feel after? both sort and long term?

I may be wrong here but of the 5 women I know that have had them it was not a good thing in any way shape or form.

Here is a hit list of problems they have had.

1, Trouble concieving when she was "ready" to have a family.
2, Emotional issues I killed my other chidrens sibling. Followed by heavier drug use (marjuana) to cloud the memory.
3, Emotionally disconnecting with close family after ward.
4, All suffer guilt for what they did.
5, Of the 5 only one is attempting to have a spiritual life and she is the one still getting high and we pray for her and her family.

All could have chosen to put the child up for adoption or had family members help them.

I agree with Messe here 100%, the real problem is before conception.

If there is a OOPs then the adoption process should be not for just those that can afford it but those that can not concieve. And not picky about race, color or creede or even possible medical conditions. If you really want to be a parent then you should get the next avalable. If this is not good enough then maybe you should not have children.

And if some mother that gave the kid up can not come back 1, 2, or 10 years later with remorse and get the kid back. Contact and meeting by mutual consent is fine.

The time to be pro choice is before conception. It is no mystery how it happens. They do it on TV all the time.

Spare me about the amount of pregnancy that are due to rape and incest. Most pregnancies are terminated by young white women from the suburbs that don't want the inconvience of the child to be.
I know this for a fact because my old next door neighbor was a "counselor" at a "family planning clinic" that is really a abortion clinic. Almost none were counseled to adoption.


Just consider the above if your wife, girlfiend, daughter or grand daughter has a oops. I hope you can sleep well with your decision.

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post #40 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 8:56 pm
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post #41 of 55 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 11:22 pm
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Here I go again, paragraphs this time though
So... you think that a woman has a “Right” to “Kill” something she’s just created with a “Man’s” help in her body before it’s born without his consent? Then I ask you, what’s to stop her after as well? A woman should be able to Kill anything a man may have helped her conceive at anytime as long as she lives. Nope! Woman should be superior to man in all realities of killing. Nope! She should be able to kill with impunity a baby she feels will inconvience her. Nope!
All this killing has led to the demise half of you talk about on here. You wonder why kids grow up thinking they can kill their little brother because he pee’s the bed and get’s him wet? Wonder why, HMMMM. Not too much of a stretch to see that “Certain” types of killing is okay. It’s okay to kill a harmless fetus (yet to be born person) but please spare that homicidal maniac. Now there’s a clear message for youth growing up.
Personally, I really don’t care what you think. If killing is okay with you then I guess you can’t complain when the little lady goes out and aborts you as well after the fact!
Think of all the dumb Blonde jokes we could think up over this one. A Blonde walks into her Dr. s office and says I need a ”late” term abortion, Dr. Say you don’t look pregnant, She says I’m not he’s 2 now and If I’d known then what I was gonna have to go thru now I’d have done it then!
Good Luck!

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post #42 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 6:25 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nearmisses
Here I go again, paragraphs this time though
So... you think that a woman has a “Right” to “Kill” something she’s just created with a “Man’s” help in her body before it’s born without his consent? Then I ask you, what’s to stop her after as well? A woman should be able to Kill anything a man may have helped her conceive at anytime as long as she lives. Nope! Woman should be superior to man in all realities of killing. Nope! She should be able to kill with impunity a baby she feels will inconvience her. Nope!
All this killing has led to the demise half of you talk about on here. You wonder why kids grow up thinking they can kill their little brother because he pee’s the bed and get’s him wet? Wonder why, HMMMM. Not too much of a stretch to see that “Certain” types of killing is okay. It’s okay to kill a harmless fetus (yet to be born person) but please spare that homicidal maniac. Now there’s a clear message for youth growing up.
Personally, I really don’t care what you think. If killing is okay with you then I guess you can’t complain when the little lady goes out and aborts you as well after the fact!
Think of all the dumb Blonde jokes we could think up over this one. A Blonde walks into her Dr. s office and says I need a ”late” term abortion, Dr. Say you don’t look pregnant, She says I’m not he’s 2 now and If I’d known then what I was gonna have to go thru now I’d have done it then!
Good Luck!
Good argument, Brian. Unfortunately, those in favor of abortion have salved their consciences by deluding themselves into thinking that while in the uterus a baby is something other than human -- a fetus.

My daughter just lost her baby two months into her pregnancy. For reasons known only to God that little one was not meant to be, yet it had a heartbeat even at that early stage.


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post #43 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 6:37 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Is that what you deciphered from my post?

Wow....
Well, yes, in a country that has total liberty there is no law or law enforcement (sort of like Iraq right after the US invaded) people have the liberty steal from, abuse, or kill anyone they choose.

Isn't that what you meant by:

"lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties

1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom."

?

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post #44 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 7:10 am
 
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Originally Posted by messenger13
[hijack]
With all due respect Mr. Samra, this IS the Chit Chat forum. BMWLT.com consists of nearly 50 forums (counting all of it's sub-forums). And all but one are motorcycle related. The Chit Chat forum is reserved for just that . . . CHIT CHAT. It's open to all topics. This is the forum where I tend to talk about my Ninja, the crappy weather of Ohio, computers, music, and whatever else I feel like chatting about that day. I do tend to stay away from topics of religion and politics...but there are those that do not.

I recommend you simply ignoring these threads, because they ain't going away anytime soon. I guarantee ya...
[/hijack]



Mike . . . Amen!

But, I doubt that you'll change one mind in here with this post. People hearts and minds are changed through life and through God. Not through words on a computer screen.

I mean no offense, and I know you're heart is in the right place.

Be blessed,
I guess i should have looked a little more closely at what is talked about and who is doing the talking on this site before jumping in and joining.

While I have significant respect for many here, posts like the one that started this thread, do, as Kbandit so aptly put it, open a BIG can of worms. I come here to enjoy the greatest joy of my life in all "50 forums" and i will ignore these types of posts--have since i saw and impulsively responded to this one-and will continue to because these discussions are doomed to be divisive, angry and ugly--all things I DON'T want associated with the greatest passion in my life, --"I can guarantee ya" that."
Carry on.
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post #45 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 7:17 am Thread Starter
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Bill, you seem well versed on Roe v Wade. However that is only one of the 2 landmark Supreme Court cases on the subject. The other is Doe v Dalton. The Doe v Dalton decision states that a woman can have an abortion at ANY time during her pregnancy if a doctor agrees that her health is at risk. The way that has played out is that ANY reason (no matter how trivial) has been used to procure abortions right up to and including full term.

As an interesting side note - both the Wade (Norma McCorvey) of Roe v Wade and the Dalton (Sandra Cano-Saucedo) of Doe v Dalton have become strong pro-life supporters and regret having been used by the pro-abortion legal people.

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post #46 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 7:19 am
 
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Amen brother! I like myths and stories, and many times they can give some insight into problems of being human, but to believe they reflect reality.....

You have to wonder how people can pick and chooses among magical beliefs, (Well not really, it took me till my mid-thirties for reality to take hold. Don't let anyone kid you about the power of social indoctrination) and toss stories about Odin and Zeus out the door and yet accept stories about Jehovah and Jesus as the real deal.

I used to be pretty rough on believers but now, if they stay out of my life I am will stay out of theirs. Unfortunately quite a few of them believe ( I will not use the word think here because it does not apply) it is their holy duty to get in my face with thier beliefs in magic tricks. A pox on them all and I don't care which god delivers it.
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post #47 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 7:30 am
 
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Why don't you list some of these trivial reasons that are being used..

I assume you must be familar with quite a few of them otherwise how would you be able to make a judgement regarding their triviality?

I hope you will also list your source for this list of trivial reasons that women pawn off on their doctors to get an abortion.
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post #48 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 9:48 am
 
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a number of people have tried to short circuit this thread but failed. too bad.

let me try this:

politics gets heated. which is cool, if you ask me. i love a spirited debate. i'm grateful we live in a country where it is possible.

religion almost always boils over. we're talking guns, knives, and fisticuffs. more people have been killed throughout history in the name of various gods and religions than for any other reason. GENERATIONS of people have been at each others' throat because of it.

given the above, what possible good can come of debating religion here, on this board? i'd hate to see friendships jeopardized and people abused because of the topic. people believe what they do, period. shouldn't we just respect that and move on?

i have debated politics with friends, face to face.

but can you honestly see yourself debating religion with someone face to face? challenging their faith or their lack of faith? prolly not.

why don't we let this one lie? no good can come of it.
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post #49 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 11:26 am
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Good points

You make some good points Billy.

Seems to me as I was taught science in grade (now called elementary) school back in the early 50s, anytime a cell divided it was considered to be alive. So to me that means after the sperm fertilizes the ovum and the first cell division takes place, we have life. DNA wise, it is human with all the right stuff. So it isn't a full developed human yet, it is a human embryo.

Not trying to change anyone's opinion, just expressing mine.

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post #50 of 55 Old Jan 27th, 2006, 12:06 pm
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Anguish....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkiesel
... The Doe v Dalton decision states that a woman can have an abortion at ANY time during her pregnancy if a doctor agrees that her health is at risk. The way that has played out is that ANY reason (no matter how trivial) has been used to procure abortions right up to and including full term....
blue highlighting added by me.

Howdy Mike,

I appreciate your tone and welcome the discussion.

While you may be right about the how the decision plays out such that "ANY reason (no matter how trivial) has been used to procure abortion rights....", I would characterize that as the "slippery slope" position. That is the position that says, "I can't take even the smallest step toward the other side position, no matter how reasonable, because they'll use my willingness to be reasonable to exploit. I'm not saying your wrong, they will try. You have to have trust in your fellow citizens that they will see the other sides intransigence and ignore them, or "rule against" them in the elections.

I'll share something personal that may illustrate the point about a mother's health. A few years ago, my sister was pregnant and had a lot of complications as the pregnancy progressed. But for the incredible advancements in medicine during the prior ten years, or so, she and husband would have had to make the choice between a high probability of her dying if she went full term, or having a mid term abortion. As it was, she had almost complete kidney failure and they delivered cesearian at 5 months. Thanks to modern medicine they avoided that terrible choice and I have a wonderful niece.

Had her pregnancy occurred just a few years earlier, their choice would have been heartbreaking and gut wrenching. That said, it would have been their choice, not mine and not of others. Which, under the circumstance I am describing, is as it should be.


.

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