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post #1 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 10:33 am Thread Starter
 
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Wtf??!!!

first three kids beat up four homeless people, killing one.

now four high school students beat and try to kill a random pedestrian:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006183/

WTF is the world coming to? what is happening with our young people?
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post #2 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 11:51 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
first three kids beat up four homeless people, killing one.

now four high school students beat and try to kill a random pedestrian:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006183/

WTF is the world coming to? what is happening with our young people?
Perhaps "moral relativism" and lack of a moral standard is showing it's ugly head in more horrific ways.


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post #3 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 12:03 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Chick
Perhaps "moral relativism" and lack of a moral standard is showing it's ugly head in more horrific ways.
ABSOLUTELY. the million-dollar question is: how to make our young people have a more effective moral compass.

i know you have a strong opinion on how best to do that, as do i ....
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post #4 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 12:08 pm
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[QUOTE=KBandit]ABSOLUTELY. the million-dollar question is: how to make our young people have a more effective moral compass.QUOTE]

How about parents being positive examples for starters???!!!!


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post #5 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 12:30 pm
 
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And just what leads you to believe these kids( and their lack of a moral center) represent anything other than a very small minority of the teenage population?

A minority that has existed since... forever.
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post #6 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 12:36 pm Thread Starter
 
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[QUOTE=Chick]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
ABSOLUTELY. the million-dollar question is: how to make our young people have a more effective moral compass.QUOTE]

How about parents being positive examples for starters???!!!!
yup. i'm with ya 100 percent.
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post #7 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 12:55 pm
 
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I wouldn't say things are getting worse... there has always been a wide spectrum of behavior within the human race, for that matter within the same human being. Although, thankfully, the nasty behavior still tends to be less prominent and that's why it makes what is considered "good news".
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post #8 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 1:44 pm
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Classic - blame it on the modern media.

No, the blame isn't saying media causes this kind of behavior - what with prime time TV, video games, movies and music and all that. Of course such inundation with such marginal imagry wouldn't have a tangible effect on our youth. No way. Free speech and all that.

Rather the argument says it's so much easier to 'get the word around' now with cable news, the internet, etc. Plus media outlets are looking for the sensational stories to boost their ratings. They tend to 'highlite' these 'extreme' incidents. So, no - it's not happening more. It always happened, we are just hearing about it more, now. Yup - fur sure!

Yea - this kinda thing has always happened. Why, my 97 y/o Aunt Whinny tells stories of how roving packs of boored youth used to beat up on hobos back in the dust bowl days. Why, they'd find 2 or 3 dead strangers in town a week back when.

Sounds more like leftists using even 'leftier' arguments to justify the failures of their 'tolerance' to me. We, as a culture, have already made it abundantly clear that such behaviors are tolerated - morals have no rule. There is no Right or Wrong outside what 'feels good'. Just remember a not so recent past President's actions in the 'oval'. If the head of government can get away with a personal humidor - why can't some punks have some fun kicking shit outta strangers? Hell, the cops do it! After all, it's is just an expression of thought - or something.

Don't get me started - there's a hella long and wild rant pent up in here...

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post #9 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 1:50 pm Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Just remember a not so recent past President's actions in the 'oval'. If the head of government can get away with a personal humidor - why can't some punks have some fun kicking shit outta strangers? Hell, the cops do it! After all, it's is just an expression of thought - or something.
exactly right. when i first heard that bubba received a BJ, the first thing i wanted to do was go out and beat a homeless person.

how did you know?
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post #10 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 2:28 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rixchard
And just what leads you to believe these kids( and their lack of a moral center) represent anything other than a very small minority of the teenage population?

A minority that has existed since... forever.
With sophisticated media listeners parsing every story that comes across the internet, these stories "seem" to be more common than they really are. You can usually see this whenever a big story takes the limelight. For example, when the mine disaster in West Virginia occurred a couple weeks ago, all the media listeners where keyed on mine accidents, so we heard about all of the 30 or so that normally happen in any given week. Same thing happens with airplane crashes, mass killings, or even misguided youths doing unspeakable things to themselves and others.


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post #11 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 2:50 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eljeffe
With sophisticated media listeners parsing every story that comes across the internet, these stories "seem" to be more common than they really are. You can usually see this whenever a big story takes the limelight. For example, when the mine disaster in West Virginia occurred a couple weeks ago, all the media listeners where keyed on mine accidents, so we heard about all of the 30 or so that normally happen in any given week. Same thing happens with airplane crashes, mass killings, or even misguided youths doing unspeakable things to themselves and others.
by "media listeners" i assume you mean news editors?

there is some truth to what you say. the standard rule for media coverage is, "if it bleeds, it leads." sensational stories get more than their fair share of coverage, no doubt about it.

i have always worked on the corporate side, and of course a lot of people i went to school with chose the media side. almost without exception my media friends have grown very disenchanted very quickly with the current state of news journalism in america. only a tiny fraction of stories get covered, applying the "bleeds" standard or other sensationalistic benchmarks.
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post #12 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 2:58 pm
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Here in Baltimore, we have had 27 murders so far in 2006. That's 27 in 23 days. And Baltimore ain't all that big, 636,000 in 2004! All the politicians and police officials are looking for answers. This in a city where 75% of kids are born out of wedlock, where there are an estimated minimum 50,000 (NOT a misprint) drug addicts, where judges continually give suspended sentences to violent offenders (one such miscreant murdered a store owner two weeks ago), where they have had numerous phony "gun buy-back" programs, and where police officers are corrupt because they are hired now with drug and arrest records in the name of political correctness and racial quotas and police commanders turn a blind eye in the name of "statistics".

The state legislature is now considering a bill to allow convicted felons to vote!! Absurd!!!

The sad thing is that we, the voters, put those in power that will be the very ones that allow us, the voters, to be destroyed.

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post #13 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 3:01 pm
 
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Originally Posted by eljeffe
With sophisticated media listeners parsing every story that comes across the internet, these stories "seem" to be more common than they really are.
And then you get people cutting and pasting these stories, or posting the links to every forum they subscribe to...and viola! A local incident turns into "THE END IS NEAR!!!".

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post #14 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 3:05 pm
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No. Media listeners are automated processes that mine the internet (and other information sources) for various topics based on a set of search criteria. They go way beyond the sophistication of web spiders (like Google) and approach the sophistication of Government crawlers like Carnivore. Once a media listener is keyed on a particular topic, it will produce "hits" which are sent to whatever media editor at whatever news outlet. If it fits what they are looking for (i.e., last week it was mine accidents, this week it may be teen gang beatings, next week it might be plane crashes), it mines every detail (no matter how irrelevant) and helps "write" the story. You have no idea how many "stories" in a national or local 30 minute news broadcast are written by copy robots. Yes, a human does the final review and might polish off the copy, but 80-90% of what you hear from the talking heads is generated right off the server.


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post #15 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 3:11 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Daman858
All the politicians and police officials are looking for answers.
tell them to stop looking. the clear answer to your city's problems is clinton's BJ. just be patient. maybe by the end of bush's SECOND term the morality of our nation (hell, the free world) will suddenly and miraculously improve.

can't you just FEEL governmental transparency and high ethical standards OOZING from the white house?

gawd, i don't know about you but i feel great knowing that we've solved this problem!
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post #16 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 3:13 pm Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
No. Media listeners are automated processes that mine the internet (and other information sources) for various topics based on a set of search criteria. They go way beyond the sophistication of web spiders (like Google) and approach the sophistication of Government crawlers like Carnivore. Once a media listener is keyed on a particular topic, it will produce "hits" which are sent to whatever media editor at whatever news outlet. If it fits what they are looking for (i.e., last week it was mine accidents, this week it may be teen gang beatings, next week it might be plane crashes), it mines every detail (no matter how irrelevant) and helps "write" the story. You have no idea how many "stories" in a national or local 30 minute news broadcast are written by copy robots. Yes, a human does the final review and might polish off the copy, but 80-90% of what you hear from the talking heads is generated right off the server.
wow ... amazing. it's all news to me. and i drink with those reporters! maybe i otter spike their drinks with WD-40!
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post #17 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 3:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
first three kids beat up four homeless people, killing one.

now four high school students beat and try to kill a random pedestrian:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006183/

WTF is the world coming to? what is happening with our young people?
Howdy Gerhard,

I'm with Richard on this one. "This" does not mean "that".

My observation of crimes, especially morality types (crimes against children/homeless, racial, sexual), are not occurring with greater frequency. I believe what is happening is that they get greater and more constant publication.

The greater frequency and scope of publication are a function of two conditions:
1-There is more bandwidth now. Historically there were three U.S. National news sources that programmed 2 hours a day each, versus the now unlimited Worldwide sources-including this board-that go 24/7/365)
2- Because the media, rightfully, jumps all over these types of outrageous crimes, the few that do occur get a huge amount of attention. It doesn't necessarily mean they are happening more frequently. It does mean that we as a society are paying more attention... which is as it should be.



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post #18 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 4:20 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by BillyOmaha1-There is more bandwidth now. Historically there were three U.S. National news sources that programmed 2 hours a day each, versus the now unlimited Worldwide sources-including this board-that go 24/7/365)[/font
2- Because the media, rightfully, jumps all over these types of outrageous crimes, the few that do occur get a huge amount of attention. It doesn't necessarily mean they are happening more frequently. It does mean that we as a society are paying more attention... which is as it should be..
you make some good points, billy, but i would like to qualify what you said a bit.

1) yes, there is more bandwidth, 'tis true. but have you noticed how the media tends to recycle the same news over and over again? this is particularly true at CNN. there is precious little "new" news being broken through enterprise.

2) it might be "rightful" for media to jump on blood and gore stories because they tend to boost viewership and readership, but there are still those of us who feel media performs an important watchdog function in our society that should supercede advertising revenue. because let's face it: if the media is relegated to a corporate profit machine then editors will lose their oversight over content and programming will be driving by proctor and gamble, general motors, microsoft, etc.

take politics, for example. call me an idealist but i still think it important for government to be accountable to the people, and media should serve as the people's watchdog. otherwise we are no better off than the poor saps we "liberated" in iraq.

for more on this topic i recommend you go see, "good night and good luck." great flick.
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post #19 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 5:12 pm
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Gerhard,

Just let me flame you a tiny bit, please...the word is "I", not "i" and America starts with a capital "A". Each word of a new sentence starts with a capital letter. It is called ENGLISH! There is a shift key on your keyboard and if not, I will send you a new keyboard for free! And please, can you write a post without using a reference to some vulgarity?

Our city's problems have nothing to do with Clinton or Bush or anyone other than those who are committed to the destruction of a once fine city, once called "Charm City", now known as "Baltimore, Murder-land".

Nothing personal, just MHO.

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post #20 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 5:39 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Daman858
Gerhard,

Just let me flame you a tiny bit, please...the word is "I", not "i" and America starts with a capital "A". Each word of a new sentence starts with a capital letter. It is called ENGLISH! There is a shift key on your keyboard and if not, I will send you a new keyboard for free! And please, can you write a post without using a reference to some vulgarity?

Our city's problems have nothing to do with Clinton or Bush or anyone other than those who are committed to the destruction of a once fine city, once called "Charm City", now known as "Baltimore, Murder-land".

Nothing personal, just MHO.
hi dave ... i am sorry that my board shorthand rubs ya wrong but it's the way i communicate on the web. sorry. it is an old habit and i fear it would be impossible to break.

regarding vulgarities ... i'll try to scale that back. this is a public forum after all.

regarding politics and crime in your city ... i fully realize that it is neither bush's or clinton's fault. i was being facetious and poking fun at another poster.

all the best ...
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post #21 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 6:55 pm
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I agree with what everyone has stated earlier- the acts of these kids and others are just being shared more easily via internet, nightly news, 24 hour news channels, terrestial radio news channels, Satellite news channels, morning news, evening news, late night news, a billion and two newspapers. Each one is trying to "scoop" the other. We simply live in an age where even the smallest news story is reported just to fill the airwaves. Back when some of us were growing up, the news was shared via one maybe two newspapers a day and the nice old lady down the block who knew everybodies business.

As for the children themselves, I blame the lack of parenting in the home for 80-85% of the problems we see. Yes, even people doing the right things for their children will may have issues with their children. However, with the rise of divorced parents and the need to have both parents working to make ends meet, no one is home minding the children. They are left to "parent" themselves.

When I was going up, I had no fewer than 5 mothers- mine and the four other mothers on my block who took turns watching over the group. Issues that I was unable to talk to my parents were voiced with John's parents. When a Jimmy was experimenting too much with drugs, it was my parents who dragged him home to his parent's house. When Alice got pregnant, it was another parent who helped her break the news to her parents. It wasn't done to show up anyone but to help someone who you cared about in need. Today, everyone is too busy to get involved.

It is so much easier to say yes to your child than be a parent and provide guidance when needed. It is a lot harder to explain and discuss drugs, sex and other issues than to turn a blind eye. We are all strapped for time and energy. It is a lot easier to say simply let the kids go wild. Parents are having kids later because of their careers. What 50 year can keep up with a rebellious teenager? It is extremely tough! Before I get flamed, I know that it works out for a large number of occasions. However, IMHO it is also factor in many of these cases.

As much as I love the internet, the total access to information that the internet provides is way too much for our youth's young minds to handle. Type in one word wrong, and your on some bestiality website or some other form of porn. Try typing in something as innocent as whitehouse.com and watch out! This has lead to a decay in morals. I am no bible thumper! My family goes to church a hand full of times a year. However, one of the strongest lessons the church taught us is that the family unit is vitally important to the well being of a person. I believe that religion and morals should not be just what is spoken about at church on Sunday. It is something that is model and practice daily. A family does not need to go to church weekly to be moral. If they watch out for each other, feel loved by someone they love, that is enough to save anyone. Again, today's family unit is so spread out, who has time to express this love. Between work, school, sports, holidays, birthdays, chores- something has to give. The family unit has been hurt by Father Time.

As someone who works in a school, I can't tell you how many cyberbullying issues I deal with on a regular basis. Some teenagers think it is amazing fun to record their deeds and post them on their websites. I ask my self, where are the parents? My daughters computer is in the living room not because it's convenient of the rest of us or because it is a work of art. It's there so that I can monitor what she is doing and who she is chatting with. It's not an invasion of her privacy- ITS CALLED BEING A PARENT!


Society has turned to the school system as a savior! There was a time, when you could simply get your children involved with a sport or a club at school. I remember hearing " get your kid involved in basketball or football" it would "keep them out of trouble". Again, parents delegating their role to govern their children to other people who are caught in the same time crunch cycle.

Hello, is anyone reading the papers? First, on Long Island, we had the Mepham incident where the poor kid practically got raped by his teammates. Just today, another school's JV basketball team had their season cancelled because of three of the kids on the team beat and molested a fellow teammate. The first remarks I heard this morning was from someone who said the team should not be punished by the behavior of the few bad apples. I hate to tell say it but why weren't the rest of the team defending this poor kid? In my book, they are just as bad as the kids who did the beating. Who gets blamed? Not the kids, not the parents- the coach! He is removed from his classes and suspended from teaching. I'm sorry, if the parents did their job teaching their kids it is not okay to beat and grab a fellow humans private parts, there would be no problem! Instead, their too busy trying to keep up with the Jones's. Could he have provided more supervision in the locker room? Maybe. However, then this guy would get blamed for being a pedophile for watching his team too closely.

While I'm on the topic of passing the blame, lets talk about the relatives of the poor girl in NYC who was beaten by her father for taking a yogurt without permission. They were very quick to blame the Department of Child Welfare, the Department of Education, the Police. Let me ask them something- where were they? If they knew the man was beating the kids and the wife, why didn't they step in to protect them? Where were the neighbors who had to hear the yelling and the screaming. Again, they were all too busy with their own lives so blame someone else. How long before a lawsuit is filed against the City? It is far easier to blame others than to blame ourselves.
I am not faulting them for not getting involved. I understand the need to support one's family. But when you do not protect your own, don't blame the next guy.

As you can see, I feel very strongly about the role of the family and how it is deteriorating. It is true maybe I'm letting a few bad apples color my thoughts and opinions. But, while there are many other factors that often occur in these bad situations, it all boils down to who is watching over the today's youth so that they feel loved.

Before I get flamed heavily, there are many families who are making it work- mine included. It is extremely hard work but it can be done if the family is willing to make sacrifices. Too many parents today are too selfish and are unwilling to do so.

I apologize for this lengthy post. I don't even know if this makes any sense. My brain hurts and I'm too tired to proof or edit my post.

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post #22 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 11:33 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
exactly right. when i first heard that bubba received a BJ, the first thing i wanted to do was go out and beat a homeless person.

how did you know?
Sorry, haven't been following this. But I gotta admit, I'm surprised by your glib and shallow response. Your question was,

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
what is happening with our young people?
When the US President can so blatently demonstrate a loss of what many consider basic morals, is it any surprise the youth of this country do the same?

Cheating on your wife, beating a stranger to death - hey, it's all a wash, right?

If it's acceptable for 'some' people to do 'certain' things, that are considered by 'most' to be wrong - then why are you surprised when others do 'other' things that are also considered to be wrong?

So, to answer your question directly - what's wrong with our young pepple? A fundamental miscomprehension of Right and Wrong.

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post #23 of 49 Old Jan 24th, 2006, 11:35 pm
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Cheating on your wife, beating a stranger to death, invading whatever country you feel like - hey, it's all a wash, right?

I'm not condoning Clinton's actions there, but how can his indiscretions lead to an impeachment trial while W's blatantly aggressive, intrusive, and illegal policies don't? Yeah, I know they went after Bill for lying, but hasn't Bush lied to us the whole time, and on far more serious matters?

But back to the original topic. It's not any one's particular actions or the bombardment of pop culture that leads to moral decay. It's simply that people aren't expected to be held accountable for their actions, even if they are caught. That's been going on for decades, and it's not just the politicians who are the worst offenders.

It's less the knowledge of right and wrong, but more a perceived lack of consequence that allows such things to continue. A simple direct cause & effect and the associated reward or punishment being applied equally across the board would go a long way towards sorting things out, but don't hold your breath.

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post #24 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 12:25 am
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It's less the knowledge of right and wrong, but more a perceived lack of consequence that allows such things to continue. A simple direct cause & effect and the associated reward or punishment being applied equally across the board would go a long way towards sorting things out, but don't hold your breath.
%100 with ya there :up:

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post #25 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 12:38 am Thread Starter
 
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Cheating on your wife, beating a stranger to death - hey, it's all a wash, right?
maybe its just me, bud, but it is an AWFULLY long stretch between those two. so long that i don't get the connection AT ALL. it does not even pass the laugh test.

sorry .... like i said, maybe it's just me.

i personally think parents are responsible, not politicians or teachers. parenting is HARD work, and there is no owners' manual. no warranty. its up to parents to make sure kids grow up with a sense of morality.
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post #26 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 12:39 am
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Unhappy Whats wrong with todays youth???

1. Video Games
2. Disfunctional family units.
3. Video Games
4. Lack of positive roll models.
5. Video Games
6. Lack of Discipline.
7. Video Games
8. Lack of Corporal Punishment.
9. Video Games
10.Schools abandoning gym and sports classes.

Just my top 10.

PS; I think if Kids were outside physically playing and using their own imiginations, they would not absorb the crap and violence video games spew out. Just drive around your neighborhood and you do not see kids "playing" anymore. They are inside getting FAT and F##ked UP.

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post #27 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 1:09 am
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Originally Posted by KBandit
maybe its just me, bud, but it is an AWFULLY long stretch between those two. so long that i don't get the connection AT ALL. it does not even pass the laugh test.

sorry .... like i said, maybe it's just me.

i personally think parents are responsible, not politicians or teachers. parenting is HARD work, and there is no owners' manual. no warranty. its up to parents to make sure kids grow up with a sense of morality.
Actually, Messe picked up the link. Fact that neither action (cheating or beating) were performed with anticipation of consequence. It's not so much the idea of Right or Wrong, but fact that there's no holding to accountability.

Hey, do what ya want, beat your wife, cheat a stranger - s'long as you don't get caught, it's a wash.

Methinks a related term is 'Honor' - it's fading fast too.

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post #28 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 1:54 am
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Just so we're clear, there is a huge difference between cheating on your wife, and killing someone for gain, or even worse just for pleasure. Neither is "right" but there are clear penalties for murder, whereas infidelity hardly rates a comment these days. Now part of the latter problem is due to society forcing humans into an artificial state of monogamy, but that's a whole different discussion.

As for the truer virtues, the historical reenactment group that I'm in focuses heavily on chivalry and honor. We explore these concepts both in theory and in practice, and many of us try to extend them into our daily lives. And one of the most rewarding things that we do is to try and bring these concepts to today's youth by working with local schools. It's amazing how simple stories about history and how people used to live can serve to illustrate a better way for us all to live.

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post #29 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 2:40 am
 
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Exclamation After many words, transgressions are unavoidable.

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post #30 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 7:04 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
first three kids beat up four homeless people, killing one.

now four high school students beat and try to kill a random pedestrian:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006183/

WTF is the world coming to? what is happening with our young people?
Oh man--i respect just about everyone on this site and like just about everyone here, too, so i hate--just HATE-to see these kinds of posts and questions on a site designed to discuss the greatest joy of my life--well, next to time with my wife (I had to say that--she's watching my every move).

no disrespect intended at all to KB but doggoneit--I come here to get AWAY from these kinds of discussions--not to be thrust into the middle of them.....And yes, i don't have to read the post but it's from someone i like, admire and respect so naturally, i'm going to check it out.....

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post #31 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 8:42 am
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I agree with NevadaNez.... just seems that some folks try to keep the pot stirred up. Guess it gives them something to do!!

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post #32 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 9:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
first three kids beat up four homeless people, killing one.

now four high school students beat and try to kill a random pedestrian:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006183/

WTF is the world coming to? what is happening with our young people?
Don't know where you have been but that has been happening for a long time.

about 7-8 years ago four teenagers beat a guy to death over a pack of cigarettes not far from where I lived then.

talking to some cops, they don't even like to bother with the crap anymore because it does no good, minors get busted and get out of jail so quick it's crazy.

there was or it might stil be, In CA. if a minor is charged with a crime and sentenced they can only be held in jail for that crime to (and I'm pretty sure) it was only to the ripe old age of 24. yes a minor charged with Murder, there was a pretty big case and lots of publicity quite a few years back on that one.

Sorry but the bleeding hearts of our society are way to leinent with crimes involving minors. it was one of the biggest reasons gangs used minors to comit crimes.

Hell cops bust the same crack heads over and over again in jail out in a month or three back in jail. there is basically no time for voilent crimes anymore. Heck minors get off with a slap on the wrist, no one has to pay back the vitums for damages (medical, property damage). nothing anymore the kids parents aren't responisble the courts won't put them in jail, cops can't shoot them (ok just kidding there) heck they can't even taser them in Cocoa anymore.

FL has done a good thing with opening up the right to protect yourself with deadly force law's most don;t know it but FL alway's had that law where it was legal to shoot someone if in fear for YOUR life and you could proove it, this change to the law just made it a little easier to proove it. and is in fact gone a little furhter by letting you protect yourself with deadly force in your vehicle. No if someone does a home invasion for instance and get inside your house well too bad for them........ and it's about darn time.
too many perople getting killed or beaten half to death by these punks

Maybe it's law's like this that will start making a change.

Tom

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post #33 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 9:14 am
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[QUOTE=Chick]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
ABSOLUTELY. the million-dollar question is: how to make our young people have a more effective moral compass.QUOTE]

How about parents being positive examples for starters???!!!!
How about parents being responsible for thier kids actions as well.

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post #34 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 9:22 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Cheating on your wife, beating a stranger to death, invading whatever country you feel like - hey, it's all a wash, right?

I'm not condoning Clinton's actions there, but how can his indiscretions lead to an impeachment trial while W's blatantly aggressive, intrusive, and illegal policies don't? Yeah, I know they went after Bill for lying, but hasn't Bush lied to us the whole time, and on far more serious matters?
No he hasn't, was the public mislead? yes, was he mislead as well? Yes. it's not even remotly related to Clinton lying about the affair he had. not even close to the same thing! but that;s enough of the preidential politics from me cause I will get going on it.

anyhow......

Quote:

But back to the original topic. It's not any one's particular actions or the bombardment of pop culture that leads to moral decay. It's simply that people aren't expected to be held accountable for their actions, even if they are caught.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's been going on for decades, and it's not just the politicians who are the worst offenders.
DING DING DING DING..... We have a winner!

you are so right I mean SO RIGHT!

Quote:

It's less the knowledge of right and wrong, but more a perceived lack of consequence that allows such things to continue. A simple direct cause & effect and the associated reward or punishment being applied equally across the board would go a long way towards sorting things out, but don't hold your breath.

If only the public would realize this, you hit it right on the head Meese!

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post #35 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 9:25 am
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Originally Posted by KBandit
maybe its just me, bud, but it is an AWFULLY long stretch between those two. so long that i don't get the connection AT ALL. it does not even pass the laugh test.

sorry .... like i said, maybe it's just me.

i personally think parents are responsible, not politicians or teachers. parenting is HARD work, and there is no owners' manual. no warranty. its up to parents to make sure kids grow up with a sense of morality.

and it's up to us to punish them when they don't, there are way to many slaps on the wrist going on today. no punishment for the crime, not fromparents or the courts. heck you can't even spank your kid anymore with out DYS stepping in for child abuse!

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post #36 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 9:29 am
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tell them to stop looking. the clear answer to your city's problems is clinton's BJ. just be patient. maybe by the end of bush's SECOND term the morality of our nation (hell, the free world) will suddenly and miraculously improve.

can't you just FEEL governmental transparency and high ethical standards OOZING from the white house?

gawd, i don't know about you but i feel great knowing that we've solved this problem!
That doesn't make a bit of sense.

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post #37 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 9:40 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
first three kids beat up four homeless people, killing one.

now four high school students beat and try to kill a random pedestrian:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006183/

WTF is the world coming to? what is happening with our young people?

That's old news, in fact it's a trend (or was) in the UK it was called "Happy Slapping". Same story some kids find a loner and kicked the crap out of him/her
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post #38 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 12:10 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
...I'm not condoning Clinton's actions there, but how can his indiscretions lead to an impeachment trial while W's blatantly aggressive, intrusive, and illegal policies don't? Yeah, I know they went after Bill for lying, but hasn't Bush lied to us the whole time, and on far more serious matters?.....
Howdy Ken,

I enjoy your posts, your not afraid to speak up!

The Clinton "indiscretions" issue always gets me going. Primarily because most people think the "indescretion" was for cheating on his wife, or having sex with an intern, or lying to the American people.

As you undoubtedly know, Clinton was not impeached for having fun with a cigar. He was not impeached for receiving fellatio in the Oval Office. He was not impeached for standing up in front of the American public and telling a flat out lie when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman".

Nope. He was impeached for one reason and one reason only. He was disbarred for it. He was fined by the court for it. He ended up paying a large sum of money to the victim, not Monica Lewinsky, as a result.

For those that don't know: When Bill Clinton was Governor of Arkansas, he had his security detail bring a young female government office worker to his hotel room on the pretense of "a meeting with the Governor". Long to short: She went in and the guards stood sentry outside the room. Governor Clinton then dropped his pants expecting to be "serviced". The woman ran out in a state of duress.

She later sued him for sexual harassment and by virtue of his position(s), Governor and then President, she was unable to get him into court. Finally the Supreme Court ruled that she could have her day in court by having Bill Clinton testify in private and under oath to tell to the truth under penalty of perjury. He lied while under that oath in a court of law. A case which was settled for a large amount of money immediately prior to judgement being entered.

That is why he is only one of two Presidents that have been Impeached.

Going to war is political decision. Wiretapping international calls from bad guys is a political decision, arguably a legal question. BUT, lying under oath in a court of the United States of America, especially when the other party is "a common citizen", is clearly a "High crime and misdemeanor".



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post #39 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 12:26 pm Thread Starter
 
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Howdy Ken,

Nope. He was impeached for one reason and one reason only. He was disbarred for it. He was fined by the court for it. He ended up paying a large sum of money to the victim, not Monica Lewinsky, as a result.
.
billy ... i know you aimed your post at ken, but i wonder if i can make a few comments?

clinton DESERVED to be impeached for what he did (lying to a grand jury). there simply is no excuse for that behavior. but the fundamental wrongness of his behavior does not diminish the sheer incompetence of the current administration.

we can argue back and forth whether the morality of lying about an extramarital affair is worse than waging war on false pretenses. but that is a zero-sum game. clinton is in the past. bush is here now. i suggest the right course is debating issues that we can change.

but the subject that gave rise to this thread was declining morality, and i submit that the whole clinton affair has had little or no impact on the morals of our youth. the three kids involved in the homeless beating were ... what? ... 11, 12 years old during the clinton fiasco? does anyone think they were taking notes? or even paying attention? where were their parents when they were deciding what was right and wrong? where were their parents when they were out beating homeless people to death?
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post #40 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 2:48 pm
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Fair enough, Bill. Point taken. But just imagine if the punishment actually did fit the crime, and if people were held responsible for the actual consequences of their actions, rather than the perceived ones. It'd be a much different world, for sure.

I'm sorry that I won't be at DVD this year. I'd like to just sit and chat with you sometime.

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post #41 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 2:55 pm
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Quote:
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...I'm sorry that I won't be at DVD this year. I'd like to just sit and chat with you sometime.
A chat (perhaps about politics ) would be fun, although it seems that when we get together RIDING is at the top of the list
I won't be joining the Village Idiots this year as well



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post #42 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 3:08 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
...the subject that gave rise to this thread was declining morality, and i submit that the whole clinton affair has had little or no impact on the morals of our youth..... where were their parents when they were out beating homeless people to death?
Howdy Gerhard,

I agree that Clinton has no impact on morality in others. Cynicism perhaps, but not morality.

In my first reply your post, I was trying to saying that I don't believe that the youth of today have "declining morality". Certainly it rises and falls a bit, but virtually every generation thinks that the youth of the day "are going to hell in a hand-basket".


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post #43 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 3:12 pm
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I've also found that riding takes precedence when face-to-face. Or sometimes wrenching, as it should be. Still, I often appreciate your candor and insight, and your occasional replies always seem to make sense.

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post #44 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 3:26 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
[I was trying to saying that I don't believe that the youth of today have "declining morality". Certainly it rises and falls a bit, but virtually every generation thinks that the youth are of the day "are going to hell in a hand-basket".[/font]
.
fair enough.

maybe i focus too much on things like this since becoming a parent myself. my wife and i worked hard for 20 years to raise our son, and it scares me to read how some others have turned out. it is not easy being a parent, and sometimes it is tough to find the right balance between discipline and love. thank goodness alan turned out a lot better behaved than me when i was his age!
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post #45 of 49 Old Jan 25th, 2006, 7:27 pm
 
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Meese, you were kidding right????

I mean your boy Clinton was convicted of lying to a district court judge and he lost his attorneys license,it was revoked.. Other than the lefty's, the media, and you who has charged the prez with a crime????

Clinton was an embarrassment to the country... Comparing Clinton to Bush is like comparing Charlie Manson to Mother Teresa.......regards Pete
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post #46 of 49 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 5:05 am
 
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[QUOTE=Chick]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBandit
ABSOLUTELY. the million-dollar question is: how to make our young people have a more effective moral compass.QUOTE]

How about parents being positive examples for starters???!!!!

You hit the nail right on the head!!
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post #47 of 49 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 7:27 am Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
Meese, you were kidding right????

I mean your boy Clinton was convicted of lying to a district court judge and he lost his attorneys license,it was revoked.. Other than the lefty's, the media, and you who has charged the prez with a crime????

Clinton was an embarrassment to the country... Comparing Clinton to Bush is like comparing Charlie Manson to Mother Teresa.......regards Pete
bushie looks a little like mother theresa, now that you mentioned it.

and both bubba and charlie are renowned skirt-chasers, so ....

you are right!

except for the embarrassment to the country part. i've checked my passport and it says i am an american. and i can assure you i'm a LOT more embarrassed NOW than i ever was when bubba was in the white house. believe it or not.

so i guess your observation doesn't apply to all of the country.

Last edited by KBandit; Jan 26th, 2006 at 8:15 am.
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post #48 of 49 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 3:08 pm
 
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KBandit, you may not have a problem and thats ok but the majority of the country did....

I mean lets face it , the house the senate both went conservative when members publicly stood with Clinton...

The white house went back conservative from his immoral lying ways...

And now the supreme court is going conservative due to the liberal, left leaning, legislative actions of the court........ Keep your passport handy.......Regards Pete
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post #49 of 49 Old Jan 26th, 2006, 3:53 pm
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Well Spoken Pete!!

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