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post #1 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 1:23 pm Thread Starter
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How could McCain have won?

[B]I don't think he ran a smart campaign and wonder what he could have done differently that might have changed the outcome of the election. Ideas?

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post #2 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 1:29 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

I actually think he ran a very smart campaign. George Bush, the leader of the party is sitting in the White House with an under 30% approval rating. The economy is in turmoil. That is a TON of baggage to try to lose.

He came closer than any republican could have come. No campaign is perfect. Especially with the comfort of hindsight used to make analyses, but I think he did well.


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post #3 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 1:31 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Sorry...forgot to add my hindsight opinion

His one big, missed opportunity was to fight against the Wall Street bailout. I think with that he handed the issue to Obama and the election.


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post #4 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 1:59 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
[B]I don't think he ran a smart campaign and wonder what he could have done differently that might have changed the outcome of the election. Ideas?
1) Not sold his soul to the religious right. If the John McCain we saw last night had been the one campaigning things would have been much closer.

2) Pick someone other than Palin. Her anti-intellectualism did not sit well with educated voters
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post #5 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:13 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by markc
Pick someone other than Palin. Her anti-intellectualism did not sit well with educated voters
Many of those "educated voters" were looking for a reason not to vote for McCain and they picked her. She came out of the gate slow and everybody immediately wrote her off. Now, had McCain called bullshit on the bailout plan, he could have walked into the White House with Rosie O'Donnell as his running mate.

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post #6 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:13 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by Briantime
I actually think he ran a very smart campaign. George Bush, the leader of the party is sitting in the White House with an under 30% approval rating. The economy is in turmoil. That is a TON of baggage to try to lose.
The Congress is just as much to blame for all of these things and yet they got sent right back to Washington. 'Splain that to me please...

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post #7 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:20 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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The Congress is just as much to blame for all of these things and yet they got sent right back to Washington. 'Splain that to me please...
The average American hasn't got a freeking clue of how his/her government works. How's that?

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post #8 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:23 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by Ted Shred
The Congress is just as much to blame for all of these things and yet they got sent right back to Washington. 'Splain that to me please...

Ultimately, I think it's "the buck stops here"...on the prez'es desk.
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post #9 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by Ted Shred
The Congress is just as much to blame for all of these things and yet they got sent right back to Washington. 'Splain that to me please...
Ted, a lot of them did NOT get sent back to Congress.

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post #10 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:27 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Shred
The Congress is just as much to blame for all of these things and yet they got sent right back to Washington. 'Splain that to me please...
Perception vs. reality? Too much detail to really understand what's going on?

I don't know, take your pick


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post #11 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by hoog62
The average American hasn't got a freeking clue of how his/her government works. How's that?
That may be a bit of an overstatement. But you might be right. Heck, it seemed somewhat of a mystery even to Sarah Palin.

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post #12 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:29 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Ditto on the bailout plan. McCain's platform was heavy on "stopping the pork", but he let the bailout go through with little more than a whimper. For the totally stupid, egregious pork that was added to that emergency bill at the last minute as "sweeteners" to get it passed is a shining example of how the practice of adding unannounced "riders" to bills so that they slip through with NO oversight visible to the American public should be absolutely stopped! Very many of these bill riders would NEVER pass if the American public was aware of them and had any power to stop them.

Even line item veto would be a little bit of a check and balance.

If McCain had stood his ground, and not voted for the bill until it was completely clean of any riders, enough would have sided with him to have the bill go through clean, or stopped it altogether. ( I still think we would have been better off over time if it had never passed). Then he would likely have had the election in his hand.

Notice that after the bill passed, his talk about stopping pork ceased altogether! He knows he screwed up royally there.

Now we have to cross our fingers for the next four years hoping they don't screw up the country even more. I don't as yet hold much hope, except for the hope that I am wrong.

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post #13 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:41 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
That may be a bit of an overstatement. But you might be right. Heck, it seemed somewhat of a mystery even to Sarah Palin.
How was it a mystery to her?

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post #14 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by joelurker
How was it a mystery to her?
She seemed to have a difficult time even stating clearly what the role of the VP was.

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post #15 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 2:58 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by hoog62
The average American hasn't got a freeking clue of how his/her government works. How's that?
That's probably the best answer. Sad really. Most adult I know would fail an 8th grade civics exam

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post #16 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 3:05 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

It is unfortunate that Palin was thrust into the limelight on such short notice, and with little time to prepare for it. The Katie Couric interview was a planned hatchet job, and Sarah was being coached to not speak about certain things, as any one would have been. She was trying to satisfy the handlers, not herself.

Her last 2-3 interviews were INFINITELY better, when she started to say what SHE wanted to say, and not what she thought others wanted her to say.

It was funny when some of the republican party leaders started complaining that she was starting to talk "off the platform", but when asked what they liked about her in the first place they answered "She is a Maverick, like John".

In my opinion, if somehow the republicans had pulled it off, most would have been pleasantly surprised at how well she would do. She is NOT the dummy the partisan media has painted her to be.

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post #17 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 3:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by dshealey
It is unfortunate that Palin was thrust into the limelight on such short notice, and with little time to prepare for it. The Katie Couric interview was a planned hatchet job, and Sarah was being coached to not speak about certain things, as any one would have been. She was trying to satisfy the handlers, not herself.

Her last 2-3 interviews were INFINITELY better, when she started to say what SHE wanted to say, and not what she thought others wanted her to say.

It was funny when some of the republican party leaders started complaining that she was starting to talk "off the platform", but when asked what they liked about her in the first place they answered "She is a Maverick, like John".

In my opinion, if somehow the republicans had pulled it off, most would have been pleasantly surprised at how well she would do. She is NOT the dummy the partisan media has painted her to be.
This might be true, Dave, but the choice of Palin, I think, was one of McCain's big mistakes. She may have helped him some with the party's base, but she turned off too many of the educated Republican and Independent voters he needed to win. I think if he had selected a more experienced, seasoned, respected, articulate running mate, he might have won. I think most viewed the Palin choice as an enormous ploy rather than a rational, clearly thought out decision based on who would have been most ideally suited to be VP. and it was a ploy that failed. Not her fault, and yes, she was mishandled, but it was a situation created by McCain's choice.

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post #18 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 3:25 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
The average American hasn't got a freeking clue of how his/her government works. How's that?
Dave I agree with you and I also believe they bank on our ignorance.

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post #19 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 3:27 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
She seemed to have a difficult time even stating clearly what the role of the VP was.
She initially wasn't really clear on the role of the V.P. and said so. If you remember Joe Biden did not either when he was finally asked the same question. Palin took the time to learn the duties of the V.P. and later said the V.P. 'Ran the Senate"? That was an oversimplification, but in fact the VP is the President of the Senate and is the highest-ranking official of the Senate. She also stated that she wanted to exercise some of the other powers enumerated to that position, and was lambasted for saying that. Only afterward did it come to light that there are many powers and duties enumerated to the V.P. as President of the Senate, and she was actually quite correct in her statement and understanding of the role of the VP with regard to the senate.

If you want to hang your hat on her lack of intelligence that is fine, but I think she is much brighter than she gets credit for. I fail to understand some people find it much easier to dismiss her than to simply debate policy with her. The sexism shown by the media and many on the left is beyond the pale.

Colin Powell apparently made his judgement of Palin based only upon what he had seen in the media and admittedly had 'never had any conversation with her'. You are also making your judgement from glimpses you have caught of her and sound bites of hers, largely served up out of context by a media that was solidly in Obama's camp.

Only once was Joe Biden asked a tough question and he refused to answer it - additionally the Obama campaign subsequently informed that anchor and that stating that they were no longer to be granted access to anyone in the Obama camp.

All that said, Obama ran a masterful campaign and may end up being the leader we need at this time in our lives. The test will be how he handles his governing role once in office. If he governs from the left and tries to go with a single payer healthcare solution, gets behind card check and other pet projects of the leftest end of the democrat party, he will meet the same public outrage that Clinton did and will lose the Senate and the House in two years.

If, on the other hand, he governs more form the center, he may piss off Pelosi and the rest of the far left democrats and end up having to fight with them. He certainly faces some real challenges. While his record shows him to be one of the most liberal senators currently in office, his campaign drifted continually rightward after he defeated Clinton in the primaries. He is too young and too much of a moving target to effectively label.

While the voters may have been instinctively reacting to a party and 'throwing the bums out', if the bums that are still in, from either party, fail to reign in spending and get our fiscal house in order, there will be a bigger and uglier backlash in two years.

If he is truly working for change, has the vision and intelligence to see what needs to be done and the will to stand behind his vision, regardless of what the hard left or hard right pushes, he may live up to what most of us want. He certainly has a grand opportunity, that will be over in the blink of an eye if he doesn't govern from the center.

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post #20 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 3:36 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
I think if he had selected a more experienced, seasoned, respected, articulate running mate, he might have won. I think most viewed the Palin choice as an enormous ploy rather than a rational, clearly thought out decision based on who would have been most ideally suited to be VP. and it was a ploy that failed. Not her fault, and yes, she was mishandled, but it was a situation created by McCain's choice.
You mean someone like Joe Biden?

Knowing McCain, I disagree that it was a ploy. I think he genuinely picked someone who was able to fight for what she believed in and would fight even her own party if needed. McCain has enormous integrity, exemplified by his concession speech.

A fresh view, unadulterated by years in Washington could be a real asset. We all better hope that is true, since our President-elect is also inexperienced, unseasoned and only has a couple of years in Washington - most of the time spent campaigning for President.

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post #21 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 3:49 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
This might be true, Dave, but the choice of Palin, I think, was one of McCain's big mistakes. She may have helped him some with the party's base, but she turned off too many of the educated Republican and Independent voters he needed to win. I think if he had selected a more experienced, seasoned, respected, articulate running mate, he might have won. I think most viewed the Palin choice as an enormous ploy rather than a rational, clearly thought out decision based on who would have been most ideally suited to be VP. and it was a ploy that failed. Not her fault, and yes, she was mishandled, but it was a situation created by McCain's choice.
I disagree. The ONLY time McCain led in the polls was after the convention and Sarah Palin. Shortly thereafter, the DOW dropped like a stone, panic ensued and the lead was never recovered. Many do not like Palin, but I suggest those that don't would not have voted for McCain anyway. Many seem to have forgotten that at the beginning of his race, the number one problem McCain faced was lack of support from his base.

I don't know everybody but no one I know changed their position away from McCain after his VP announcement. It's becoming popular to try to hang McCains defeat on her, at least in part, but I remain convinced it's the economy that killed McCain as it has so many other candidates over the years.


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post #22 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 4:00 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Had McCain been more relaxed and less aggressive during the debates I believe he would have made a more positive impression on the very voters Obama was courting. Many people are impressed by polished oratory (the old "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, then baffle 'em with bullshit" theory); this was Obama's major weapon in the debates, plus he had a more relaxed demeanor. McCain came out like a Pit Bull always on the attack. This strategy probably played ok to voters possessing the ability to discern which candidate had substance and which had fluff; the young and the starry-eyed can't see past the shallow surface to determine if a candidate has any depth, thus, they vote based on initial impressions and tend to believe, without questioning, whatever they hear from the speaker to which they are enamored.

If McCain had debated Obama in the televised debates in the same manner he spoke to voters on the campaign trail, Obama's next stop would be the US Senate, not the White House.
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by Briantime
I disagree. The ONLY time McCain led in the polls was after the convention and Sarah Palin. Shortly thereafter, the DOW dropped like a stone, panic ensued and the lead was never recovered. Many do not like Palin, but I suggest those that don't would not have voted for McCain anyway. Many seem to have forgotten that at the beginning of his race, the number one problem McCain faced was lack of support from his base.

I don't know everybody but no one I know changed their position away from McCain after his VP announcement. It's becoming popular to try to hang McCains defeat on her, at least in part, but I remain convinced it's the economy that killed McCain as it has so many other candidates over the years.
I bet he would not pick her if he had it to do over again.

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post #24 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:02 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gglove
Dave I agree with you and I also believe they bank on our ignorance.
They absolutely bank on it. We, as a nation, will never reach our potential as long as politics is sold as a team sport. People seem to like it that way though, there's less thinking involved.

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Re: How could McCain have won?

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I bet he would not pick her if he had it to do over again.
That's OK, somehow I don't think she'd agree again . . .

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post #26 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:09 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by joelurker
You mean someone like Joe Biden?

Knowing McCain, I disagree that it was a ploy. I think he genuinely picked someone who was able to fight for what she believed in and would fight even her own party if needed. McCain has enormous integrity, exemplified by his concession speech.

A fresh view, unadulterated by years in Washington could be a real asset. We all better hope that is true, since our President-elect is also inexperienced, unseasoned and only has a couple of years in Washington - most of the time spent campaigning for President.
Geez man, you're not suggesting they should use the same yardstick to measure their own ticket, are you?

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post #27 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:24 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
[B]I don't think he ran a smart campaign and wonder what he could have done differently that might have changed the outcome of the election. Ideas?
Could have taken private contributions like Nobama who now owes out a whole lot of markers.

Then he's have had billions instead of millions to spend.

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post #28 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:26 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by ldbikin
Ultimately, I think it's "the buck stops here"...on the prez'es desk.
We have three branches of government for a reason.

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post #29 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:46 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

He shudda had his running mate campaign topless.

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post #30 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:10 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by BecketMa
He shudda had his running mate campaign topless.

Bob
"He"? I hope you are referring to McCain.

You are referring to McCain, aren't you? Joe Biden, topless? Yuck.

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post #31 of 51 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 7:52 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

I agree with those who stated McCain lost because he pandered to the Right and not to the Independents. His pick of Palin (especially in light of how the media portrayed her) was wrong! If he had picked a more experienced moderate like Guilani or Romney, the Base would have still supported him and the Independents would have been swayed to his ticket and not to Obama. Hell, I would have voted for him.

His other misplay, in one man's humble opinion, was his negativity in the debates. Rather than provide specifics about his plans, he relied on cliches, sound bites and swips at Obama. If he came straight out and spoke more on his plans- he would have walked away with the election.

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post #32 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 1:40 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Good thing the VP doesn't have any function other than tie breaker. Can't imagine Joe Biden in any responsible position.

Now we'll get to see if Nancy Pelosi has bigger gonads than the President elect. Between her and Joe Biden, I think its a toss up as far a viciousness.

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post #33 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 4:43 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
I don't think he ran a smart campaign and wonder what he could have done differently that might have changed the outcome of the election. Ideas?
You are correct, Greg. I was so disappointed at his campaign. I'm NOT a Republican, but I expected a little more entertainment, at least.

But, in a word: NOTHING! With the magnitude of the economy tanking, the way it has, the opposition party was GUARANTEED a win. Not a big accomplishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markc
....Pick someone other than Palin. Her anti-intellectualism did not sit well with educated voters
Not that it would have made a difference, but it was MUCH MORE than being dumb as a post! If you're trying to court the Hillary voters, why pick a conservative? Also, the girlies are big haters. Picking someone who looks like her is gonna generate an instant cat-fight! Very poorly thought out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Many of those "educated voters" were looking for a reason not to vote for McCain and they picked her. She came out of the gate slow and everybody immediately wrote her off. Now, had McCain called bullshit on the bailout plan, he could have walked into the White House with Rosie O'Donnell as his running mate.
Dave, I would say that just his being a Republican was enough! But, if he had called "bullshit" on the PORK plan, at least we could say he has some integrity--win or loose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Shred
The Congress is just as much to blame for all of these things and yet they got sent right back to Washington. 'Splain that to me please...
Easy, Ted! You're trying to explain an emotional reaction with logic. Logically, ALL THE PRICKS on both sides should have been thrown out! So much for logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
That may be a bit of an overstatement. But you might be right. Heck, it seemed somewhat of a mystery even to Sarah Palin.
Greg, don't you mean ESPECIALLY to Palin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
....McCain's platform was heavy on "stopping the pork", but he let the bailout go through with little more than a whimper. For the totally stupid, egregious pork that was added to that emergency bill at the last minute as "sweeteners" to get it passed is a shining example of how the practice of adding unannounced "riders" to bills so that they slip through with NO oversight visible to the American public should be absolutely stopped! Very many of these bill riders would NEVER pass if the American public was aware of them and had any power to stop them....If McCain had stood his ground, and not voted for the bill until it was completely clean of any riders, enough would have sided with him to have the bill go through clean, or stopped it altogether. ( I still think we would have been better off over time if it had never passed). Then he would likely have had the election in his hand....
Standing firm on the PORK bill would have demonstrated his integrity and reinforced his image as a maverick. BUT, in light of the economy, the mere fact that he was a Republican was enough to get him NOT elected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
It is unfortunate that Palin was thrust into the limelight on such short notice, and with little time to prepare for it. The Katie Couric interview was a planned hatchet job, and Sarah was being coached to not speak about certain things, as any one would have been. She was trying to satisfy the handlers, not herself....Her last 2-3 interviews were INFINITELY better, when she started to say what SHE wanted to say, and not what she thought others wanted her to say....
Not that it would have made a difference, but it's unfortunate is that McCain picked someone of dubious integrity. If she had any, she never would have tried to satisfy "handlers." In the end, who else do you have but yourself? Also, why would you waste time with Katie WHEN YOU KNOW they are gonna hatchet your ass?!
Quote:
....It was funny when some of the republican party leaders started complaining that she was starting to talk "off the platform", but when asked what they liked about her in the first place they answered "She is a Maverick, like John". ....
This, again, goes to the whole integrity thing. Do we want a real maverick--or a fake one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
....the choice of Palin, I think, was one of McCain's big mistakes. She may have helped him some with the party's base, but she turned off too many of the educated Republican and Independent voters he needed to win....I think most viewed the Palin choice as an enormous ploy rather than a rational, clearly thought out decision based on who would have been most ideally suited to be VP. and it was a ploy that failed. Not her fault, and yes, she was mishandled, but it was a situation created by McCain's choice.
The choice of Palin was IRRELAVENT! It was the economy that did him in. But, if you're gonna pick one of the girlies, she better not be too pretty. I'll use Hillary, as an example....of not being too pretty, that is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelurker
....McCain has enormous integrity, exemplified by his concession speech....
Joe, I'm gonna say that his concession speech demonstrated much class (unlike his audience) and humility. But for integrity I'll need much more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briantime
....It's becoming popular to try to hang McCains defeat on her, at least in part, but I remain convinced it's the economy that killed McCain as it has so many other candidates over the years.
+ 1. Right on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DakotaDude
....If McCain had debated Obama in the televised debates in the same manner he spoke to voters on the campaign trail, Obama's next stop would be the US Senate, not the White House.
That would have certainly helped, BUT with the economy tanking, the mere fact that he was a Republican was enough to doom him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
We have three branches of government for a reason.
Again, Dave, you're trying to use logic to combat the hysteria of emotion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BecketMa
He shudda had his running mate campaign topless.
Oh shit! Can you imagine the cat-fights?!

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post #34 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 6:49 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelurker
If you want to hang your hat on her lack of intelligence that is fine, but I think she is much brighter than she gets credit for. I fail to understand some people find it much easier to dismiss her than to simply debate policy with her. The sexism shown by the media and many on the left is beyond the pale.
We got a whole lot of election coverage here in the UK. At first, Palin came across as a pretty lady with a homespun appeal and a cute way of expressing heself, as in pit-bulls and lipstick. Attitudes began to change when the exorbitant weekly cost of her wardrobe was revealed. At that point the public's perceived image of her changed to that of a fashion-obsessed celebrity enjoying the limelight of running (potentially) for VP. At that point also, McCain's age became an issue to consider. Someone said she could be a heartbeat from the Oval Office, and we know whose heartbeat they were referring to... The final Palin bad news was when rumours surfaced that she was involved in in-fighting with McCain and disagreeing with the direction the campaign was going. Seen from here the whole show was very entertaining. None of our business, of course.
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post #35 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 7:01 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffCee
Attitudes began to change when the exorbitant weekly cost of her wardrobe was revealed. At that point the public's perceived image of her changed to that of a fashion-obsessed celebrity enjoying the limelight of running (potentially) for VP.
And that is the sexism. Hell, they're still attacking her and the election is over...

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post #36 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 7:18 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
And that is the sexism. Hell, they're still attacking her and the election is over...
Sorry, but "fashion-obsessed celebrity" is absolutely not a sexist concept, it is perfectly possible for a male to be over-obsessed with his clothing and appearance. When that becomes ALL that the individual has to offer or contribute an obvious problem of image emerges which is NEVER to that individual's advantage.

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post #37 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 9:16 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

I think if he had defended himself against Obama's comparing him to Pres. Bush he would have fared better. He finally said, once during the last debate, something to the effect of "Senator Obama, I am not George Bush - if you wanted to run against George Bush, you should have ran 4 years ago". IMHO, by that time I think it was too little too late.

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post #38 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 10:08 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffCee
Sorry, but "fashion-obsessed celebrity" is absolutely not a sexist concept, it is perfectly possible for a male to be over-obsessed with his clothing and appearance. When that becomes ALL that the individual has to offer or contribute an obvious problem of image emerges which is NEVER to that individual's advantage.
No... "fashion obsessed celebrity" is an agenda driven media misdirection, and you're buying into it hook line and sinker. The need to "package" her as "executive quality" was in direct response to a sexist mindset that DOES exist. How a women looks DOES matter, and that is why it was a legitimate campaign expense. The Obamarama set was going to attack whomever McCain picked and Palin was admittedly not ready for the national stage at several levels, but the obsession over her clothing is ridiculous and something to which no male selection would have been subjected.

The men could show up in the same suit every other day and nobody would even notice. If Palin did it? Ask a couple women about that, and then actually listen to what they say.

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post #39 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 10:29 am Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Geez man, you're not suggesting they should use the same yardstick to measure their own ticket, are you?
Here's one point worth considering "our ticket" won, by a not insignificant margin.

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post #40 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 10:35 am Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
No... "fashion obsessed celebrity" is an agenda driven media misdirection, and you're buying into it hook line and sinker. The need to "package" her as "executive quality" was in direct response to a sexist mindset that DOES exist. How a women looks DOES matter, and that is why it was a legitimate campaign expense. The Obamarama set was going to attack whomever McCain picked and Palin was admittedly not ready for the national stage at several levels, but the obsession over her clothing is ridiculous and something to which no male selection would have been subjected.

The men could show up in the same suit every other day and nobody would even notice. If Palin did it? Ask a couple women about that, and then actually listen to what they say.
good points, Dave. But the media, for better or worse, and usually the latter, IS a very influential part of the American political scene. McCain knew that as well as anyone.

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post #41 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 10:43 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
good points, Dave. But the media, for better or worse, and usually the latter, IS a very influential part of the American political scene. McCain knew that as well as anyone.
Unfortunately I think they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't where the clothes were concerned.

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post #42 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 12:59 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
Here's one point worth considering "our ticket" won, by a not insignificant margin.
What does that have to do with using an equal yardstick for both VP candidates?

While not an insignificant margin, it is certainly not a mandate. Considering the bad light continuing to be used to paint McCain, Palin and their campaign, coupled with the fact that a 3% swing in the popular vote would change the outcome of the election, should tell Obama to tread lightly on just how far to the left he takes policy.

He certainly benefited from reneging on his initial promise to accept public campaign funding. He also benefited from a media, largely in the tank for him. This Pew Research study bears that out. Pew Research is a non-partisan think tank that took a long and hard look at the media. Just look at the disparity between the two largest cable outlets. Many on the left like to point to Fox News as being an instrument of the right. While they certainly lean to the right, their coverage shows a slight bias toward negative reporting, but almost equally toward both candidates. Then look at MSNBC and how totally they were in the tank for Obama. Regardless of who wins, it is certainly not good for America to realize that the media is trying to steer elections rather than reporting on them. No party can be happy to realize that money can play this much of a part in an election. If big money funds an election, it is not a gift, it is a loan.

We certainly have given Obama a decisive victory and a clear opportunity to excel, but until he gets into office and we get a real chance to see how he governs we really won't know anything.

He has made some very alarming statements regarding the future costs of energy, gun control and support for Israel, back peddling on all of them late in the campaign. If he causes energy costs to "skyrocket", the backlash from the citizens will be deafening. If Israel feels he is wavering on his support, they may do something preemptive and dangerous to their entire region, making $4 gasoline seem cheap. We should all hope that he lives by what he said late in this year, rather than what he said early.

He did run a nearly perfect campaign, which bodes well for him to manage a team, but it still remains to be seen what the goals of that team will be.

He wants to give tax breaks to a group of people of whom nearly 50% do not pay any income tax. He wants to increase taxes on corporations. Corporations do not pay taxes, shareholders and employees do. He wants to increase taxes on small business, which is responsible for the bulk of the job creation in America. That will end up costing jobs. He wants to increase government spending, even at the expense of a larger deficit, raising inflation and imposing a hidden tax on that same 95% that he pledged to help.

You might be inclined to come back and argue about what McCain's policies may have been and what they may have cost, but that point is moot. McCain was defeated. Obama has the job and now it is up to us, on both sides of the political aisle to "trust but verify". Those who supported him need to temper their trust with verification that he acts in the best interest of our country and those who supported his opposition need to temper their scrutiny of his leadership with at least some implicit, if not explicit trust.

I sincerely hope that we have chosen the right president for this time, as it seems we have done a number of times in the past. We can all hope that, on balance, his term as president is viewed in a positive light. We can certainly all hope he has accomplishments that work to the benefit of our children's future, without further devastating the economy of the present.

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post #43 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 1:14 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razman10
"Senator Obama, I am not George Bush - if you wanted to run against George Bush, you should have ran 4 years ago."
You're right, of course. Really he was only 90% Bush, based on voting record, at least.

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post #44 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 1:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelurker
What does that have to do with using an equal yardstick for both VP candidates?

While not an insignificant margin, it is certainly not a mandate. Considering the bad light continuing to be used to paint McCain, Palin and their campaign, coupled with the fact that a 3% swing in the popular vote would change the outcome of the election, should tell Obama to tread lightly on just how far to the left he takes policy.

He certainly benefited from reneging on his initial promise to accept public campaign funding. He also benefited from a media, largely in the tank for him. This Pew Research study bears that out. Pew Research is a non-partisan think tank that took a long and hard look at the media. Just look at the disparity between the two largest cable outlets. Many on the left like to point to Fox News as being an instrument of the right. While they certainly lean to the right, their coverage shows a slight bias toward negative reporting, but almost equally toward both candidates. Then look at MSNBC and how totally they were in the tank for Obama. Regardless of who wins, it is certainly not good for America to realize that the media is trying to steer elections rather than reporting on them. No party can be happy to realize that money can play this much of a part in an election. If big money funds an election, it is not a gift, it is a loan.

We certainly have given Obama a decisive victory and a clear opportunity to excel, but until he gets into office and we get a real chance to see how he governs we really won't know anything.

He has made some very alarming statements regarding the future costs of energy, gun control and support for Israel, back peddling on all of them late in the campaign. If he causes energy costs to "skyrocket", the backlash from the citizens will be deafening. If Israel feels he is wavering on his support, they may do something preemptive and dangerous to their entire region, making $4 gasoline seem cheap. We should all hope that he lives by what he said late in this year, rather than what he said early.

He did run a nearly perfect campaign, which bodes well for him to manage a team, but it still remains to be seen what the goals of that team will be.

He wants to give tax breaks to a group of people of whom nearly 50% do not pay any income tax. He wants to increase taxes on corporations. Corporations do not pay taxes, shareholders and employees do. He wants to increase taxes on small business, which is responsible for the bulk of the job creation in America. That will end up costing jobs. He wants to increase government spending, even at the expense of a larger deficit, raising inflation and imposing a hidden tax on that same 95% that he pledged to help.

You might be inclined to come back and argue about what McCain's policies may have been and what they may have cost, but that point is moot. McCain was defeated. Obama has the job and now it is up to us, on both sides of the political aisle to "trust but verify". Those who supported him need to temper their trust with verification that he acts in the best interest of our country and those who supported his opposition need to temper their scrutiny of his leadership with at least some implicit, if not explicit trust.

I sincerely hope that we have chosen the right president for this time, as it seems we have done a number of times in the past. We can all hope that, on balance, his term as president is viewed in a positive light. We can certainly all hope he has accomplishments that work to the benefit of our children's future, without further devastating the economy of the present.
I especially agree with your last paragraph.

Greg
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post #45 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 4:06 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelurker
We certainly have given Obama a decisive victory and a clear opportunity to excel, but until he gets into office and we get a real chance to see how he governs we really won't know anything.
We can start watching here: http://change.gov/

I really hope that he can make a positive difference, although I remain skeptical.

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post #46 of 51 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 11:44 pm
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffCee
....At first, Palin came across as a pretty lady with a homespun appeal and a cute way of expressing heself, as in pit-bulls and lipstick. Attitudes began to change when the exorbitant weekly cost of her wardrobe was revealed. At that point the public's perceived image of her changed to that of a fashion-obsessed celebrity enjoying the limelight of running (potentially) for VP....
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
And that is the sexism. Hell, they're still attacking her and the election is over...
Dave, I think it's mostly more hypocrisy than sexism. If you present yourself as a regular, down-to-Earth Jane (soccer mom, hunter, snow mobile enthusiast, etc, etc) and a reforming maverick, then wear outrageously priced clothing (ESPECIALLY in the current economic conditions), you may just have an image problem! Add exorbitant travel expenses for the family....In other words, the walk ain't quite a matchin' the talk! Just a thought. Then, add in the "hate" factor among the girlies because of her looks.
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You're right, of course. Really he was only 90% Bush, based on voting record, at least.
Standing firm on the PORK bill was a perfect chance to kill that whole argument. But....

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post #47 of 51 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 5:13 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
The men could show up in the same suit every other day and nobody would even notice. If Palin did it? Ask a couple women about that, and then actually listen to what they say.
Perhaps Palin's stunning designer wardrobe was a ploy intended to disguise her lamentable lack of campaign preparedness for the office she hoped to win. When you call her extravagance at a time of economic recession a "legitimate expense" it begs the question of where you would draw the line, if at all.

One McCain aide described the Palin family shopping spree in some of America's most exclusive stores as "Wasilia hillbillies looting Neiman Marcus from coast to coast". According to Newsweek magazine, a party donor who agreed to foot the clothes bill expected it to come in at around $22,000 and was shocked when he received a bill for $150,000 and that wasn't even the whole tab.

Obama had the sense to keep gaff-prone Joe Biden out of the campaign limelight. May have gone better for McCain if he'd thought of doing the same with his diva, Palin. From his body language when they were seen together towards the end of the campaign it certainly looked that way. Doh!

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post #48 of 51 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 6:19 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

I never thought I'd find myself supporting Nobama. But now he's OUR Prez and in the fine American tradition, I support our President.
And my grandfather used to say, He may be a sonofabitc#, but he's our sonofabitc#.

The election was is to loose: Strike 1-Palin, Strike 2-Economy and Strike 3-He didn't have Oprah and her money on his side.

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post #49 of 51 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 6:42 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by GeoffCee
Perhaps Palin's stunning designer wardrobe was a ploy intended to disguise her lamentable lack of campaign preparedness for the office she hoped to win. When you call her extravagance at a time of economic recession a "legitimate expense" it begs the question of where you would draw the line, if at all.

One McCain aide described the Palin family shopping spree in some of America's most exclusive stores as "Wasilia hillbillies looting Neiman Marcus from coast to coast". According to Newsweek magazine, a party donor who agreed to foot the clothes bill expected it to come in at around $22,000 and was shocked when he received a bill for $150,000 and that wasn't even the whole tab.

Obama had the sense to keep gaff-prone Joe Biden out of the campaign limelight. May have gone better for McCain if he'd thought of doing the same with his diva, Palin. From his body language when they were seen together towards the end of the campaign it certainly looked that way. Doh!
Put the Kool-aid down, the election is over. Hundreds of millions were spent on these campaigns in "this time of economic recession" and the left has convinced the faithful to care about her wardrobe.

Three days post election now, and this morning the media is still bashing the Republican ticket. Classy.

Dave Hoogerland

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post #50 of 51 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 9:32 am
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Re: How could McCain have won?

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Originally Posted by hoog62
Put the Kool-aid down, the election is over.
You got it.
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