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post #1 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 10:19 am Thread Starter
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We can argue the "facts" all we want

But for better or worse the American voting public has issued their collective opinon, and it's pretty clear they (many Repbulicans, Lots of Democrats and Independents) are of the opinion that the Bush administration was a colossal failure.
Good Republican politicians and bad ones alike paid the price pretty convincingly.
This should come as a surprise to almost no one. Any party in power when so much is going wrong or is even perceived to be going wrong is going to get clobbered. The big finger has been pointed and it seems to be directly at the Bush administration.
The truth, of course, is more complicated, but that's the way the political cookie crumbles sometimes.
No use crying about it. We get to repeat the process in four years and if things are not significantly better, the Dems will pay the price then, or even sooner at the mid-term elections.
Frankly, I'm pleased about last night's outcome for a lot of reasons that go well beyond the economy or even the war. And I hope things will get better for all of us.

Greg
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post #2 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 10:34 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

The results don't necessarily prove that Obama will be a better politician. They do prove that he (or really, his backers) can get things done. There may well have been no real substance to his campaign, but they correctly read the frustration rampant in the American public, responded to that frustration, and focused on the things that matter most to the public, and especially in the states where it had the most impact on the election. Basically, Obama simply played things right, and didn't screw up too badly.

Actually running the country and being effective in office is a whole different story. We'll all have to wait and see how that pans out. And contrary to the rampant scare tactics, the Dems won't have a rubber stamp. Even with overwhelming majorities in both houses, they still have to deal with an imminent recession, running two wars, the dollar remaining in the toilet, and a $10 Trillion national debt. Plus all the graft and corruption which is rampant in the system.

And on that last note, I guess we'll really see if McCain can keep his promises to reach across the aisle to get things done, and to ferret out waste, excessive earmarks, and corruption in Congress. I think we're gonna need a guy like that on the other side.

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post #3 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 11:46 am Thread Starter
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
The results don't necessarily prove that Obama will be a better politician. They do prove that he (or really, his backers) can get things done. There may well have been no real substance to his campaign, but they correctly read the frustration rampant in the American public, responded to that frustration, and focused on the things that matter most to the public, and especially in the states where it had the most impact on the election. Basically, Obama simply played things right, and didn't screw up too badly.

Actually running the country and being effective in office is a whole different story. We'll all have to wait and see how that pans out. And contrary to the rampant scare tactics, the Dems won't have a rubber stamp. Even with overwhelming majorities in both houses, they still have to deal with an imminent recession, running two wars, the dollar remaining in the toilet, and a $10 Trillion national debt. Plus all the graft and corruption which is rampant in the system.

And on that last note, I guess we'll really see if McCain can keep his promises to reach across the aisle to get things done, and to ferret out waste, excessive earmarks, and corruption in Congress. I think we're gonna need a guy like that on the other side.
I would not be surprised to see McCain or Chuck Hagel offered a cabinet post. Probably Hagel is more likely than McCain, but I think there will Reblicans in the cabinet.

Greg
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post #4 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 12:22 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Waiting on my call from the secret service.
I did my usual write in, which always makes the water boil.
Basicly says
"you expect me to make a choice between a tard and a tokin,
Piss off America is broken.
None of the above!"
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post #5 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 1:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Waiting on my call from the secret service.
I did my usual write in, which always makes the water boil.
Basicly says
"you expect me to make a choice between a tard and a tokin,
Piss off America is broken.
None of the above!"
Rock
America may be broken in many ways, almost every form of government is imperfect because people are imperfect. And fixing a democracy may be a never ending process. but it's what you gotta do if you want a democracy. It will never be perfect for everyone. But hopefully if we tweak it enough it will be good for most of us most of the time.

Greg
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post #6 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 1:26 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Hell for 700 Million I would look presidential
OK maybe not

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post #7 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:20 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
I think there will Republicans in the cabinet.
Yep, that's already being discussed. We'll just have to wait and see.

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post #8 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:21 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by gglove
Hell for 700 Million I would look presidential
And for only $150 million you could look Vice-Presidential.

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post #9 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:39 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
The results don't necessarily prove that Obama will be a better politician.
Not to be argumentative, but he has proven to be a very good politician - let's see how he governs.

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post #10 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:19 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by meese
And on that last note, I guess we'll really see if McCain can keep his promises to reach across the aisle to get things done, and to ferret out waste, excessive earmarks, and corruption in Congress. I think we're gonna need a guy like that on the other side.
We can only hope that he does and that there are others who will do the same. We need them on both sides and in the White House. There are still plenty of legislators on both sides of the isle who are corrupt in so many ways. Some of the comments made by the most vociferous members of congress during the discussions of the bailout prove to me that in addition to being corrupt, they are completely unrepentant.

McCain hung himself out to dry by playing by the rules he helped create to reign in campaign finance abuses - Obama was able to outspend his opponent by 4 or 5 to 1 by not playing by those rules. While I have some questions about the nearly $50 million raised by Obama in small untraceable donations last month, it appears he played by the rules. At the very least this ought to be illustrative to the electorate of the role that money plays in an election. That same game on a smaller scale is played by all of the legislators as well. Talking points, sound bites, bumper stickers and the 'ground game' can get a person elected, but give us absolutely no substance or insight into their character (or lack thereof). If we ever want to get this system cleaned up, the first step has to be to change the way campaigns are financed.

While I didn't vote for him, Obama is going to be our president and we owe him all of the support we can give. We owe it to our country to remain as passionate about politics for the next 3.5 years as we have been leading up to this election. The members of the house, the senate and the president are still our representatives and it is our responsibility to make sure they know we are watching.

Term limits for congress, real campaign finance reform and a line item veto, would be a great start.

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post #11 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:22 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
And for only $150 million you could look Vice-Presidential.
Did you mean $150 thousand?

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post #12 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:33 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
The results don't necessarily prove that Obama will be a better politician. They do prove that he (or really, his backers) can get things done. There may well have been no real substance to his campaign, but they correctly read the frustration rampant in the American public, responded to that frustration, and focused on the things that matter most to the public, and especially in the states where it had the most impact on the election. Basically, Obama simply played things right, and didn't screw up too badly.

Actually running the country and being effective in office is a whole different story. We'll all have to wait and see how that pans out. And contrary to the rampant scare tactics, the Dems won't have a rubber stamp. Even with overwhelming majorities in both houses, they still have to deal with an imminent recession, running two wars, the dollar remaining in the toilet, and a $10 Trillion national debt. Plus all the graft and corruption which is rampant in the system.

And on that last note, I guess we'll really see if McCain can keep his promises to reach across the aisle to get things done, and to ferret out waste, excessive earmarks, and corruption in Congress. I think we're gonna need a guy like that on the other side.
Ken, the dollar has done extremely well lately... it has forced gold into the toilet at a time when it should have doubled in value the last month.

As the US government prints mo money to help bailout all the dead beat mortgages, our lame auto makers (who have literally been asleep at the wheel for the past five years) and probably another 1,000 banks the next shoe to drop - will be inflation.

The attached graph shows just how well it has done versus the Euro - and just about every other currency in the world.
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post #13 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:36 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Waiting on my call from the secret service.
I did my usual write in, which always makes the water boil.
Basicly says
"you expect me to make a choice between a tard and a tokin,
Piss off America is broken.
None of the above!"
Rock
I just listened to Dan Carlin's "none of the above" option on the ballot. If "none of the above" wins, you have another election, and neither of the candidates listed can run again. Or, maybe you take the highest write-in. Whatever the approach, it would be clear that most americans do not like our 2-party choices, or most of the 3rd parties for that matter.

Of course, the current congress sets the election rules, and few people are fool enough to lose a game they write the rules for as they play. Nice thought, though.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
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post #14 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:39 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by RonKMiller
As the US government prints mo money to help bailout all the dead beat mortgages, our lame auto makers (who have literally been asleep at the wheel for the past five years) and probably another 1,000 banks the next shoe to drop - will be inflation.
Wait....


wouldn't that be a tax that hits the people at middle class (whatever THAT is) and below the hardest?

Does that mean that if the government spends more, we'll end up paying for it?


My goodness

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post #15 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:54 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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the next shoe to drop - will be inflation.
Ron, imagine how successful we'll all be with inflation. More members of this forum will be smoking $50.00 cigars, wearing $2,000.00 suits, and riding a $50,000.00 motorcycle!

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post #16 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 7:10 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Waiting on my call from the secret service.
I did my usual write in, which always makes the water boil.
Basicly says
"you expect me to make a choice between a tard and a tokin,
Piss off America is broken.
None of the above!"
Rock
System is not broke...........just badly bent..........truth of the matter is Americans will get what they deserve................call it 'tough love' but every one has to be responsible for their own actions....................

"Self Government does not work with out self disipline......................''

I'm still wondering about the "Poll observers" with the ball bat.............Philly, me thinks.................And I'm a 'racist' for voting for someone with a little leadership skill................?

I fly my flag as a symbol of 'Hope for the Future'..............we have all got to believe in something................I do believe I may just have a tug and call it a night..............but first; I must retire the 'Colors'..................

goodnight; and do B-Safe, and never quit; Jim
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post #17 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 8:40 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by Randy
Wait....


wouldn't that be a tax that hits the people at middle class (whatever THAT is) and below the hardest?

Does that mean that if the government spends more, we'll end up paying for it?


My goodness
Ummmm.....

YUP! (That's a Sarah Palin wink)


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post #18 of 33 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 9:36 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Wait....


wouldn't that be a tax that hits the people at middle class (whatever THAT is) and below the hardest?

Does that mean that if the government spends more, we'll end up paying for it?


My goodness
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Ummmm.....

YUP! (That's a Sarah Palin wink)
Ok, ok - now I think I understand.

So.... taking this thing a step further - bailing out companies who are fiduciarily irresponsible will end up costing all of us all in the long run.

Hmmmm, maybe the bailout was a bad idea. I know my dad always taught me that if you reward bad behavior, you will get more of it

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post #19 of 33 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 2:03 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Did you mean $150 thousand?
Nah, that's just preemptive inflation.

But in the end we'll all end up paying for it, no matter what color happens to be in charge at the time.

Ken
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post #20 of 33 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 3:10 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
....Any party in power when so much is going wrong or is even perceived to be going wrong is going to get clobbered. The big finger has been pointed and it seems to be directly at the Bush administration.
The truth, of course, is more complicated, but that's the way the political cookie crumbles sometimes....
Excellent analysis, Greg. I would add that, we all pay the price for such failures (yes, that was PLURAL) of government/leadership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
....They do prove that he (or really, his backers) can get things done....
It's much too early to know if he can get things done. With the magnatude of this tanking economy, the opposition was guaranteed a win. So winning is not a big accomplishment. It will take several years to determine if any real accomplishments are made.
Quote:
....And contrary to the rampant scare tactics, the Dems won't have a rubber stamp. Even with overwhelming majorities in both houses, they still have to deal with an imminent recession, running two wars, the dollar remaining in the toilet, and a $10 Trillion national debt. Plus all the graft and corruption which is rampant in the system....
If the shoe doesn't fit, Cinderfella....Like you said, there can be no "rubber stamp."
Quote:
....I guess we'll really see if McCain can keep his promises to reach across the aisle to get things done, and to ferret out waste, excessive earmarks, and corruption in Congress. I think we're gonna need a guy like that on the other side.
We've already seen a recent example of that: McCain had a chance to do the right thing and oppose ONE TRILLION DOLLARS of pork--and what did he do--he voted to tax our asses! So, with help like that, thanks, but....
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Waiting on my call from the secret service....
Damn, Rock, you too?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gglove
Hell for 700 Million I would look presidential
OK maybe not
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
And for only $150 million you could look Vice-Presidential.
Hell, for even less, I'll piss on you and TELL YOU that you look presidential--or vice presidential--or that it's raining! Sorry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
....We owe it to our country to remain as passionate about politics for the next 3.5 years as we have been leading up to this election. The members of the house, the senate and the president are still our representatives and it is our responsibility to make sure they know we are watching....Term limits for congress, real campaign finance reform and a line item veto, would be a great start.
Perhaps if we were all as passionate PRIOR to this, as we in this election, things might be a little different, now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
....wouldn't that be a tax that hits the people at middle class (whatever THAT is) and below the hardest?....Does that mean that if the government spends more, we'll end up paying for it?....
In a word: YES! Remember where most of the money is at. Middle class = rich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
....So.... taking this thing a step further - bailing out companies who are fiduciarily irresponsible will end up costing all of us all in the long run....Maybe the bailout was a bad idea. I know my dad always taught me that if you reward bad behavior, you will get more of it
You know, it's amazing about our parents: they turned out not quite as dumb as we thought!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #21 of 33 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 9:33 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by Randy
Ok, ok - now I think I understand.

So.... taking this thing a step further - bailing out companies who are fiduciarily irresponsible will end up costing all of us all in the long run.

Hmmmm, maybe the bailout was a bad idea. I know my dad always taught me that if you reward bad behavior, you will get more of it
I'll bet your dad would classify this as bad behavior at $300.00 per person: I'll bet it was at a private country club with drinks on us.

Mortgage finance company Fannie Mae acknowledged Tuesday that it spent more than $6,000 on a golf outing after it was seized by the government earlier this year, but said it is halting similar company-sponsored events.

Dallas-Fort Worth area television station KTVT reported Monday night that Fannie paid for 20 golfers, including several company executives, to attend a Sept. 29 golf excursion in Texas. Fannie Mae, which did not dispute the report, described the event as a mortgage industry customer meeting held twice annually.

"We do regret that the activities surrounding the customer meetings in Dallas may be perceived as excessive," company spokesman Brian Faith said in an e-mail message.


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post #22 of 33 Old Nov 6th, 2008, 10:58 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Ken, the dollar has done extremely well lately... it has forced gold into the toilet at a time when it should have doubled in value the last month.
Your not kiddin'
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post #23 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 12:20 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by RonKMiller
....Mortgage finance company Fannie Mae acknowledged Tuesday that it spent more than $6,000 on a golf outing after it was seized by the government earlier this year, but said it is halting similar company-sponsored events.....Dallas-Fort Worth area television station KTVT reported Monday night that Fannie paid for 20 golfers, including several company executives, to attend a Sept. 29 golf excursion in Texas. Fannie Mae, which did not dispute the report, described the event as a mortgage industry customer meeting held twice annually...."We do regret that the activities surrounding the customer meetings in Dallas may be perceived as excessive," company spokesman Brian Faith said in an e-mail message.
Six thousand dollars, Ron? CHUMP CHANGE!

Try this for size: in September, just after "WE" bailed out AIG--to the tune of EIGHTY-FIVE BILLION DOLLARS (of pork)--certain company employees took a little vacation in South Orange County (CA), for FIVE DAYS. But, they were very reasonable, however. It ONLY cost US (being YOU, the taxpayer) almost FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS!

Who says bailouts are bad? Killjoys! Have a nice day.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #24 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 6:50 am Thread Starter
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Six thousand dollars, Ron? CHUMP CHANGE!

Try this for size: in September, just after "WE" bailed out AIG--to the tune of EIGHTY-FIVE BILLION DOLLARS (of pork)--certain company employees took a little vacation in South Orange County (CA), for FIVE DAYS. But, they were very reasonable, however. It ONLY cost US (being YOU, the taxpayer) almost FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS!

Who says bailouts are bad? Killjoys! Have a nice day.
I read a lot about pork attached to the various bail out bills with huge dollar amounts attached. Not that I doubt it, but can anyone cite some specific instances of this regarding either the AIG bailout or the Wall Street bailout? (both of which I was against, by the way.) Just curious. Thanks.

Greg
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post #25 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 8:32 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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... can anyone cite some specific instances of this regarding either the AIG bailout or the Wall Street bailout? (both of which I was against, by the way.) Just curious. Thanks.
My God Greg, it's called Google...(search for bail out bill pork)

You're welcome.

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post #26 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 10:09 am Thread Starter
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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My God Greg, it's called Google...(search for bail out bill pork)

You're welcome.
Thanks, Dave. I found this interesting if somewhat horrifying. Need to have a discussion on Pork Barrel legislation for sure. I have some thoughts about it but don't have time to share them now. Sorry I'm so lame (lazy?) about computer searches. I stand chastened.

Greg
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post #27 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 10:32 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Thanks, Dave. I found this interesting if somewhat horrifying. Need to have a discussion on Pork Barrel legislation for sure. I have some thoughts about it but don't have time to share them now. Sorry I'm so lame (lazy?) about computer searches. I stand chastened.

Maybe that was a little harsh, but Google is your friend.

Here's another good look at the problem.

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post #28 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 10:40 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

Can we please step back from political issues for a little bit?

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post #29 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 11:53 am
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Hell for 700 Million I would look presidential
OK maybe not
If you count pre-Primary, Primary, and Election campaigns, it's closer to $1.2 BILLION.


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post #30 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 12:01 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Can we please step back from political issues for a little bit?
Thank you Randy! There is a more important issue at stake. The first puppy, what it will it be?

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post #31 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 12:24 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
I read a lot about pork attached to the various bail out bills with huge dollar amounts attached. Not that I doubt it, but can anyone cite some specific instances of this regarding either the AIG bailout or the Wall Street bailout? (both of which I was against, by the way.) Just curious. Thanks.
Hey Greg, I purposely DID NOT research "pork" any more than superficially. What little I checked on was so outrageous, and I was so disgusted, that I could not continue further!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #32 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 12:26 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Thank you Randy! There is a more important issue at stake. The first puppy, what it will it be?
I vote for an Airedale






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post #33 of 33 Old Nov 7th, 2008, 3:15 pm
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Re: We can argue the "facts" all we want

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Originally Posted by eljeffe
If you count pre-Primary, Primary, and Election campaigns, it's closer to $1.2 BILLION.
My Bad
Still a f'ing ton of cash for a $400,000 a year job!

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