We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads - BMW Luxury Touring Community
View Poll Results: How do we handle posts about religion and politics
Disallow all political and religious posts 32 21.77%
Allow posts in Chit Chat as long as they are not just cut and paste or only an external link 6 4.08%
Allow posts in Chit Chat as long as they comply with our published site guidelines 41 27.89%
Create a new sub-forum for specifically for these posts with somewhat relaxed moderation 68 46.26%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

 
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post #1 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 1:50 pm Thread Starter
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We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

First of all, we are only trying to keep this community at the level of quality contribution and member to member camaraderie we've experienced since we began.

With quite a number of members contacting me and other Administrators letting us know they are abandoning this community because of the rancor they perceive growing from political threads, it became clear that we should address the problem.

We know that this problem arises each presidential election year, this is our third since we started. Many communities disallow political threads altogether, some like www.advrider.com create a forum where almost anything goes. Even there they had to create a sub-forum 'Church, State and Money' to contain threads of a political or religious nature.

While we have very few political posts lately, threads are being posted that simply link to an external website for video or text. When I get an email that says 'Look at this link' I consider it SPAM even if it comes from someone I know. We feel that the same is true of these forums. For now we will relax moderation of threads of this nature unless they are a clear violation of site guidelines. The nature of political and religious themed posts is such that determining if they are divisive or inflammatory is much more difficult to determine. So when I say we are relaxing moderation it is only as it relates to those criteria.

Even the Administrators and Moderators differ broadly in their opinions on these posts, just as we do on our political and religious opinions. While the focus of this community is motorcycling, we also realize like any other community, our members would like to discuss other topics. Our primary concern is that there are several topics that frequently, almost invariably devolve to antagonistic, confrontational and divisive posts. We have seen this vitriol, when left unchecked, infect entire communities.

I am creating a poll along with this post so that we can gauge how our members would like us to handle posts of this nature. We will let the poll run for the next week and use the results to help us determine a clear policy.

It is our goal to do our best to allow people to freely discuss most anything, but we don't want this community to lose its overall quality or primary focus.

In addition to participating in the poll, please post a reply if you want to present other thoughts on this topic.

Randy Prade
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post #2 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 2:23 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.

Personally, I rarely discuss religion and/or politics thinking that I am ever going to change anyone's mind (any more than they have a chance of changing mine).

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post #3 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 2:42 pm
 
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Thumbs up Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.
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post #4 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 3:49 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.

Personally, I rarely discuss religion and/or politics thinking that I am ever going to change anyone's mind (any more than they have a chance of changing mine).
Agreed ..if someone wants to get abused...let them go find it !

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post #5 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 3:59 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Hallzee said:
'I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.'

and I agree but think it should have the same level of moderation as the rest of the site.

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post #6 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 4:20 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

You guys know where I stand, start a sub-forum for Conspiracies, Religion and Politics.

Make a sticky with the title "No Personal Attacks Will Be Tolerated", and send those who can't figure out what that means to banned camp for a week, then two, then three... They'll figure it out sooner or later. Do the same for posting CRaP in the other forums.

Honestly, after the election, I think this is what it'll be like in there...

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post #7 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 4:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

If we do create a sub-forum you will get the naming credit for it. When you first suggested the title a few months ago, I liked it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
You guys know where I stand, start a sub-forum for Conspiracies, Religion and Politics.

Make a sticky with the title "No Personal Attacks Will Be Tolerated", and send those who can't figure out what that means to banned camp for a week, then two, then three... They'll figure it out sooner or later. Do the same for posting CRaP in the other forums.

Honestly, after the election, I think this is what it'll be like in there...
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post #8 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 4:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links.
If we create it we'll look into the possibility of keeping the posts out of the new threads and posts views.

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post #9 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 4:56 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

New forum title..


Abuse and Humilation.



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post #10 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 5:59 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

A separate forum for political and religious discussions seems like a great idea. I'd prefer to see threads in that forum treated the same as any other: same guidelines, and still appear in New Activity. Maybe come up with a new thread "avatar" (or whatever you call it) that appears to the left of threads. This would be a visual cue that this is content found in the new forum and those who want to stay out of it would know to move on to the next new thread.

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post #11 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 6:09 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.

Personally, I rarely discuss religion and/or politics thinking that I am ever going to change anyone's mind (any more than they have a chance of changing mine).
Yep.
And people going onto that forum should be well aware and agree that they are entering a forum where they can, will and should expect people to disagree with them, not take it personally and still be willing to help each other out in all the other forums that actually matter.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #12 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 6:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Yep.
And people going onto that forum should be well aware and agree that they are entering a forum where they can, will and should expect people to disagree with them, not take it personally and still be willing to help each other out in all the other forums that actually matter.
By the same token the people who disagree should say "I disagree", not "you're stupid" or even "you're wrong". Since discussion on both of these topics is really based upon opinion, there is no right or wrong. I understand it is too much to ask for someone to avoid saying "you're wrong", but "you're stupid" is a personal attack and would be a violation of our guidelines.

Then comes the broader question of whether public figures are covered by our guidelines, or whether they apply to forum members only. For example, if someone says one of the candidates or a religious figure is "a criminal" or "stupid", is that a personal attack?

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post #13 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 6:28 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

I don't know about a separate sub forum. I guess I am a big boy and if I do not like a thread, I close it. I am another that is not too much for the political and sometimes read some of the religious ones until they get too personal and hateful. Then, I close it and go on.

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post #14 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 6:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibbones
I don't know about a separate sub forum. I guess I am a big boy and if I do not like a thread, I close it.
Judging by some of the responses to threads and some of the messages I get, there seems to be a shortage of "big boys".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibbones
I am another that is not too much for the political and sometimes read some of the religious ones until they get too personal and hateful. Then, I close it and go on.
It is interesting to note the dominance of political threads by a handful of members. I think most of the community really doesn't care to enter in these discussions. What I am trying to figure out is how many actually read the threads

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post #15 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 6:39 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Yup...Isolate the threads, keep them from showing up on new links... perfect. People want to jack around in other forums... delete the posts...don't even entertain moving them.

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post #16 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 6:47 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

OK you asked so here's my opinion. These topics almost always end up divisive.

I've been reading posts here for a couple years now and I could name a few 'regulars' who seem to thrive on personal attacks, snotty remarks or general rudeness toward certain others. What's funny is that most likely those exchanges would never happen in a face to face environment. We've all seen it before, otherwise fine gentlemen act differently in a motor vehicle or on the internet than they do in person. Webrage?

I sort of like the idea of a separate forum that doesn't show up on the 'new threads' list but you know there will still be those who post there and get into pissing matches. BMWLT has Guidelines in place to keep personal attacks to a minimum but they appear to rarely be enforced. I guess that's the difference between guidelines and hard rules. I don't know what happens behind the scenes but the most severe action I've seen taken toward violations is maybe a thread being closed. Even then the moderators sometimes continue to post to get the last word. Whether the forum is out in front or tucked away I see more harm done to a 'community' than good when arguing about these two topics is allowed.

As pointed out time & again this is a privately owned site and freedom of speech does not apply here. I guess then my vote is to disallow the divisive topics altogether. There are countless sites available to discuss politics, religion or thousands of other highly opinionated matters. Whatever decision is made though I would like to see enforcement of the guidelines.
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post #17 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 7:10 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
What I am trying to figure out is how many actually read the threads
Oh, I read them. I need a good laugh now and then.
A seperate "forum" for those topics is , I think, a bit too much. If people can't be "adults" in this forum, they sure aren't going to start being one in another forum.
If I don't care for the topic of a thread..I don't read it, don't reply to it or just ignore it.
But, to disallow some subjects is going to hurt the community more than help it. This is a "motorcycle forum" but to tell people that they can't post about anything non-motorcycle is a sure way to kill the community.

Last edited by Morley; Oct 18th, 2008 at 7:17 pm.
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post #18 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 7:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightBarbecue
BMWLT has Guidelines in place to keep personal attacks to a minimum but they appear to rarely be enforced.
I would suspect that your statement has more to do with the definition of personal attack, than lack of enforcement. You may think it is rarely enforced, but when it is, you would never notice it since the offending post will be deleted or moved to the basement. We might have missed some, since there are up to 300-600 posts per day. I would love to see examples of "personal attacks" that were missed, so that we could examine if our moderation is needing improvement.

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post #19 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 7:48 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
By the same token the people who disagree should say "I disagree", not "you're stupid" or even "you're wrong". Since discussion on both of these topics is really based upon opinion, there is no right or wrong. I understand it is too much to ask for someone to avoid saying "you're wrong", but "you're stupid" is a personal attack and would be a violation of our guidelines.

Then comes the broader question of whether public figures are covered by our guidelines, or whether they apply to forum members only. For example, if someone says one of the candidates or a religious figure is "a criminal" or "stupid", is that a personal attack?
In reality (I hope), when someone says 'Mr X is stupid', what is really being said is 'I believe that Mr X is stupid because......' and goes on to substantiate the belief'. Anything else is just banal and not worth reading.

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post #20 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 7:57 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
Oh, I read them. I need a good laugh now and then.
A separate "forum" for those topics is , I think, a bit too much. If people can't be "adults" in this forum, they sure aren't going to start being one in another forum.
We are not expecting them to behave differently in a separate forum, we are just thinking it will be a layer of insulation for those who would rather avoid the topics altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
If I don't care for the topic of a thread..I don't read it, don't reply to it or just ignore it.
But, to disallow some subjects is going to hurt the community more than help it. This is a "motorcycle forum" but to tell people that they can't post about anything non-motorcycle is a sure way to kill the community.
That is exactly the rationale behind this thread and accompanying poll. It could also be argued that divisive threads such as those about religion or politics (left unchecked) can also kill a community. What we are trying to achieve is some sort of balance. I would also argue that restricting posts of a political or religious but to characterize this as disallowing "anything non-motorcycle" is a bit of a straw man argument, a perfect tool for most political discussion, but not appropriate in this discussion.

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post #21 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:04 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightBarbecue
OK you asked so here's my opinion. These topics almost always end up divisive.

I've been reading posts here for a couple years now and I could name a few 'regulars' who seem to thrive on personal attacks, snotty remarks or general rudeness toward certain others. What's funny is that most likely those exchanges would never happen in a face to face environment. We've all seen it before, otherwise fine gentlemen act differently in a motor vehicle or on the internet than they do in person. Webrage?

I sort of like the idea of a separate forum that doesn't show up on the 'new threads' list but you know there will still be those who post there and get into pissing matches. BMWLT has Guidelines in place to keep personal attacks to a minimum but they appear to rarely be enforced. I guess that's the difference between guidelines and hard rules. I don't know what happens behind the scenes but the most severe action I've seen taken toward violations is maybe a thread being closed. Even then the moderators sometimes continue to post to get the last word.

Whatever decision is made though I would like to see enforcement of the guidelines.
Very well said MidnightBarbecue. I agree with all of the above, especially the part about the CRaP not showing up in "new threads". Also enforcing the existing guidlines instead of allowing some to "mock anything" or anyone that they "choose to" regardless of what the intent of the guidlines are.
...or allowing the opening of a closed thread "to get the last word."

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post #22 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:10 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibbones
I guess I am a big boy and if I do not like a thread, I close it.
A simple but good statement.

ibbones, must be a good fella.

There have been several religious articles that I would have posted for discussion, but I knew they would be quickly pounced on, ridiculed and the thread would quickly degenerate into a - all too common mess.
Some were good food for thought no matter what you believe.

So then even if you isolate the posts, some may still search them to do the same damage.
Why then are posts even allowed that add nothing to a discussion?

People need to consider they would look like to be in public - and butted in a conversation with a remark similar to what has generated this thread.

Whatever you do I'll be sticking around, thank you for addressing this.
Good luck with your decision.

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post #23 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:18 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
I would suspect that your statement has more to do with the definition of personal attack, than lack of enforcement. You may think it is rarely enforced, but when it is, you would never notice it since the offending post will be deleted or moved to the basement. We might have missed some, since there are up to 300-600 posts per day. I would love to see examples of "personal attacks" that were missed, so that we could examine if our moderation is needing improvement.
It's amazing you can "enforce" anything with that kind of post volume. Ya'll do a great job and we appreciate it. I have not necessarily experienced any personal attacks, but in the past there have certainly been "posts meant to polarize, inflame or incite other members the group". You generally learn who to ignore, however.

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post #24 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:23 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
What we are trying to achieve is some sort of balance. I would also argue that restricting posts of a political or religious but to characterize this as disallowing "anything non-motorcycle" is a bit of a straw man argument, a perfect tool for most political discussion, but not appropriate in this discussion.
What I was trying to get across is that if you disallow subjects (one of the options in the poll) I believe it would diminish the community.
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post #25 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:49 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

I have to say I agree with this. And I agree that sometimes, in my opinion, some are given more leeway to "bend" the guidelines than others. Just my opinion. It seems there are a few that seem to feel the same way. Wouldn't hurt to put these type posts away in another sub-forum, and I know it must be tough reviewing every post and enforcing the guidelines that exist, but if there are guidelines, they should apply to everyone equally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightBarbecue
OK you asked so here's my opinion. These topics almost always end up divisive.

I've been reading posts here for a couple years now and I could name a few 'regulars' who seem to thrive on personal attacks, snotty remarks or general rudeness toward certain others. What's funny is that most likely those exchanges would never happen in a face to face environment. We've all seen it before, otherwise fine gentlemen act differently in a motor vehicle or on the internet than they do in person. Webrage?

I sort of like the idea of a separate forum that doesn't show up on the 'new threads' list but you know there will still be those who post there and get into pissing matches. BMWLT has Guidelines in place to keep personal attacks to a minimum but they appear to rarely be enforced. I guess that's the difference between guidelines and hard rules. I don't know what happens behind the scenes but the most severe action I've seen taken toward violations is maybe a thread being closed. Even then the moderators sometimes continue to post to get the last word. Whether the forum is out in front or tucked away I see more harm done to a 'community' than good when arguing about these two topics is allowed.

As pointed out time & again this is a privately owned site and freedom of speech does not apply here. I guess then my vote is to disallow the divisive topics altogether. There are countless sites available to discuss politics, religion or thousands of other highly opinionated matters. Whatever decision is made though I would like to see enforcement of the guidelines.
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post #26 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:56 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
In reality (I hope), when someone says 'Mr X is stupid', what is really being said is 'I believe that Mr X is stupid because......' and goes on to substantiate the belief'. Anything else is just banal and not worth reading.
The question was if "Mr X" is c00k1e, is calling him stupid a personal attack, where if "Mr X" is P.M. Brown it is not?

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post #27 of 47 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 9:17 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCrider
I have to say I agree with this. And I agree that sometimes, in my opinion, some are given more leeway to "bend" the guidelines than others. Just my opinion. It seems there are a few that seem to feel the same way. Wouldn't hurt to put these type posts away in another sub-forum, and I know it must be tough reviewing every post and enforcing the guidelines that exist, but if there are guidelines, they should apply to everyone equally.
I will say that our intent is for Moderators and Administrators to apply guidelines equally. While I am certainly not Confucian in my judgement, I tend to be fairly objective. To that end I have reminded fellow Administrators as well as Moderators when they have crossed the line and even when they are dancing up against it. While I am not confrontational by nature and avoid anything close to a personal attack, I certainly would be open to reminder if I ever crossed the line. At the top of any post is a little white triangle with an exclamation mark in it - this can be used to bring a bad post to the attention of the staff. If you see see a post that you believe violates our guidelines, it will either be handled or we will let you know why we don't agree. Just like justice, the management of this community is a process, not an outcome.

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post #28 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 7:02 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

This is another dancing pigs problem (or so I think)

Here is my opinion for what it's worth:

I do not want to ban 'political' posts all together, yet I voted that way! Why? Most 'political' posts these days are attacks against one or the other candidate or VP candidate. Calling any one of them stupid/dangerous or any other derogative adjectives is simply 'stupid' (IMHO) Neither one of them got there where they are because of being 'stupid' but because they are highly intelligent people. Each and every one. Those of you that know me personally know I could care less because I am not going to vote, because I cannot, but thats not the real issue, that just seems to make it easier for me to take a step back and look at the circus from a few yards away.

I am also in strong opposition of creating a forum for these threads for a simple reason. One reason this forum exists is because we want to further camaraderie help members helping members, which is the thought behind the policy of "no divisive posts". I believe personal animosity garnered in a forum where everything goes would lap over into other areas. Therefore I am in strong opposition to anything like that. If folks want to discuss politics I am sure they can find forums on the web where this can be done. The same holds true for religious posts. Frankly I don't care if you believe in God, Buddha, Jahwe, Allah, or Ceiling Cat. This is your personal choice, and in a personal discussion you can discuss it with me at no end, but in forums this is again something that I do not feel belongs there. Since the audience is quite different (and much wider and larger) it very often comes across as preaching.

So, to make a long story short: Go ahead discuss 'political' issues, but not parties or persons. There is a HUGE difference in that. And as for religion: Discuss your moral stand not who or what told you what is right or wrong.


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post #29 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 7:09 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
So, to make a long story short: Go ahead discuss 'political' issues, but not parties or persons. There is a HUGE difference in that. And as for religion: Discuss your moral stand not who or what told you what is right or wrong.

If more people would do this, they would find out we all agree on much more than we disagree.

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post #30 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 12:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Almost a day into this and here is where we are:
  1. Only about ten percent of the users that visited have voted. About ninety percent didnít vote.
  2. A majority of users want us to allow political topics to continue.
  3. There is not a majority asking us to create a new forum.


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post #31 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 12:50 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

My view is that we don't need political or religious threads in this motorcycle forum. However, I'm not sure that I've seen enough of them to really warrant extra work by the administrator team.

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post #32 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 4:34 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.

Personally, I rarely discuss religion and/or politics thinking that I am ever going to change anyone's mind (any more than they have a chance of changing mine).

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post #33 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 6:45 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Many members here may have forgotten that Chit Chat was created specifically so that our members could discuss non-motorcycle topics. That includes many things, including religion and politics.

Some folks seem to also have forgotten that participation in any of these forums and even individual threads is purely voluntary. I agree that certain topics often tend to get quite animated, but again, no one is required to read or respond to any of them.

I think the Admins and Mods do a pretty amazing job keeping this place running, to the direct benefit of literally thousands of members, and even a few casual participants along the way. I myself have benefitted immensely over the past few years in terms of technical advice, friends made, new areas of the country visited, and the generally awesome camaraderie that this site brings to folks from all walks of life. And while I can't say that anyone here has specifically changed my mind on a particular topic, I can say that I have been given several interesting things to think about.

So my suggestion is to leave things as they are, and to continue vigorous enforcement of the guidelines related to direct personal attacks when appropriate.

Other than that, it's up to each member to participate or not in any particular thread. That's a choice that each of us makes every time we log in.

But yeah, I also imagine the vast majority of all this will blow over in the next few weeks. Just in time for Xmas.

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post #34 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 7:51 pm
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Cool Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Even though I had already voted, Ken brings up a very good point: Chit Chat was specifically created for "all" off topic subjects!

And no one is really being forced to read any of it!

John

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post #35 of 47 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 10:36 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
I would suspect that your statement has more to do with the definition of personal attack, than lack of enforcement. You may think it is rarely enforced, but when it is, you would never notice it since the offending post will be deleted or moved to the basement.
Good points Randy. I don't intend to be critical, and I commend you and the rest of the staff & moderators on the job you do. I don't expect every violation of the guidelines to be dealt with or even caught by you guys. It would be better if those guidelines were simply followed in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
my opinion for what it's worth...
Hmmm... seems to be worth quite a bit, since if I understand correctly you own the place!
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post #36 of 47 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 12:18 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
....Then comes the broader question of whether public figures are covered by our guidelines, or whether they apply to forum members only. For example, if someone says one of the candidates or a religious figure is "a criminal" or "stupid", is that a personal attack?
Of course not! BUT, it will be viewed as a personal attack by some members, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Judging by some of the responses to threads and some of the messages I get, there seems to be a shortage of "big boys"....
Glad you said it. If a moderator says it, is it still a "personal attack?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #37 of 47 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 6:43 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

My thoughts are to leave things as they are and rethink it in about four years.



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post #38 of 47 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 9:52 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
My thoughts are to leave things as they are and rethink it in about four years.
So you're gonna be a two-termer, huh???
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post #39 of 47 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 10:00 am
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Wink Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy

That picture might be Wall Street before long

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
hey I thought this was a poll thread not a political thread
-big grin-

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post #40 of 47 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 10:05 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Many members here may have forgotten that Chit Chat was created specifically so that our members could discuss non-motorcycle topics. That includes many things, including religion and politics.

Some folks seem to also have forgotten that participation in any of these forums and even individual threads is purely voluntary. I agree that certain topics often tend to get quite animated, but again, no one is required to read or respond to any of them.

------------

I think the Admins and Mods do a pretty amazing job keeping this place running, to the direct benefit of literally
So my suggestion is to leave things as they are, and to continue vigorous enforcement of the guidelines related to direct personal attacks when appropriate.

-----------

Other than that, it's up to each member to participate or not in any particular thread. That's a choice that each of us makes every time we log in.

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Meese, Well said

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post #41 of 47 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 1:27 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
I say create the new sub-forum, and if possible, don't have those posts even show up on the "New Posts" links. A person would have to go find them if they want to get into that.
If you're going to make a new forum, then I totally agree that hiding it from "new posts" and the front page is a good idea, and also consider making it members only. ...otherwise you could get another JoMamma.
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post #42 of 47 Old Oct 21st, 2008, 1:47 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

My opinion in regards to this is that all topics not only should be allowed, but need to be allowed. What kind of society would we be living in, where we are not allowed to discuss certain topics? That is really worth thinking about. Granted, the chit chat forum is not exactly going to change the course of History, but by the same token should reflect the values we share as a society. Political Correctness has eroded so much of our ability to discuss many topics affecting our society today and it should be fairly obvious that censorship is not a healthy option. Frankly, I find it very disturbing that itís even been brought up as one.

Itís not acceptable to troll or personally attack people, especially when itís in regards to an expressed opinion. This is yet another example of what is happening to our shrinking ability to discuss topics all across our society today. Itís become all too common for people to react to a point of contention, by attacking the person whoís expressed an opinion, and not debate the facts. Itís poisoning our politics, itís reducing what is deemed acceptable conversation at work, home, socializing, etc. and we should all be resistant to further erosion of our freedom of speech, whether itís in a chit chat forum, at work, or on the political stage.

What we all need to do, myself included, is take the opportunity to learn from one another, and to make sure that although there are things we may not agree on, it does not mean we should attack the person we disagree with. Itís this reduction in civility, or inability to practice the art of conversation, which causes us to voluntarily give up our precious right to free speech. Itís why Political Correctness is such a dangerous concept, and why we should all censure those who practice ad-hominem attacks instead of debating the issues, but not give up the right to free speech, or kowtow to the pressures of Political Correctness in order to ďmaintain orderĒ.

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post #43 of 47 Old Oct 21st, 2008, 3:01 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
My opinion in regards to this is that all topics not only should be allowed, but need to be allowed. What kind of society would we be living in, where we are not allowed to discuss certain topics?
Sure, but there's an appropriateness issue here too. Especially right now during a heated political race and toward the end of the riding season it would be very easy for political discussions to swamp luxury touring discussions, and dilute the core purpose of this forum. If you want to set up a soapbox in a corner where anyone can talk about anything, that's very generous, but I don't think it should be allowed to take anything away from the rest of the motorcycle touring conversations.

I speak from experience here, as a liberal atheist I finally got sick of the abundance of right wing political conversations and jokes on another BMW motorcycle board. Rather than quit the board, which I did consider, I instead decided to jump in and fight back. It's been interesting, to say the least, but I gotta admit it's definitely detracted from the motorcycle conversations, at least for me. Not all BMW riders are as open minded about other points of view as you appear to be.
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post #44 of 47 Old Oct 21st, 2008, 3:21 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
My opinion in regards to this is that all topics not only should be allowed, but need to be allowed. What kind of society would we be living in, where we are not allowed to discuss certain topics? That is really worth thinking about. Granted, the chit chat forum is not exactly going to change the course of History, but by the same token should reflect the values we share as a society. Political Correctness has eroded so much of our ability to discuss many topics affecting our society today and it should be fairly obvious that censorship is not a healthy option.
all very good points and I agree, however....

Quote:
Frankly, I find it very disturbing that itís even been brought up as one.
don't let it be disturbing at all, there are many groups that have rules what can be posted, and some are very strict so much so that messages don't post until someone has taken a quick look at the messages.

Let us all keep this in mind, this board is a board that was created for the needs of BMW K1200LT owners, or those looking into buying the K1200LT, I for one appreciate that we have forums on this board to talk about other things not directly related to the K1200LT.

also appreciate the fact the owners will even ask out opinion on whether or not to ban political threads add a forum or let them continue in this forum,

Quote:


Itís not acceptable to troll or personally attack people, especially when itís in regards to an expressed opinion. This is yet another example of what is happening to our shrinking ability to discuss topics all across our society today. Itís become all too common for people to react to a point of contention, by attacking the person whoís expressed an opinion, and not debate the facts.
sometimes in a format such as this it can be hard to tell when someone is pissed or just passoinate or just giving a good old fashioned poking, there lies the bulk of problem IMHO.

Tom

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post #45 of 47 Old Oct 21st, 2008, 4:13 pm
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonafidebob
Sure, but there's an appropriateness issue here too. Especially right now during a heated political race and toward the end of the riding season it would be very easy for political discussions to swamp luxury touring discussions, and dilute the core purpose of this forum.
Bob, I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply giving my opinion. So take this the right way, but I would just like to point out that the point you make is exactly why I think this issue is so important.
We should all look at the privelage and cherished right free speech is, and the true value that it brings to us as a society. Compare the progress of the Western World vs the Middle East in the last 500 years. Free speech and religious freedoms are paramount to a civilized society.
We should all look at the opportunity that having a forum (and a board for that matter) gives us to express our thoughts yes, but moreso to learn from one another. Without communication there is little possibility to learn. In this case I think there are some of us who can greatly benefit in particular, by learning how to communicate effectively and respectfully. This skill is being crushed by Political Correctness which effectively silences all debate about a particular topic, and in the end we all lose out since the issues and viewpoints are no longer shared.

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post #46 of 47 Old Oct 22nd, 2008, 3:45 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
....Without communication there is little possibility to learn. In this case I think there are some of us who can greatly benefit in particular, by learning how to communicate effectively and respectfully. This skill is being crushed by Political Correctness which effectively silences all debate about a particular topic, and in the end we all lose out since the issues and viewpoints are no longer shared.
Well said, sir! The bottom line is that my one big, oversensitive, feeling doesn't get hurt as you "communicate effectively."

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post #47 of 47 Old Oct 22nd, 2008, 4:20 am
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Re: We want your opinion RE: political and religious threads

The ultimate problem with e-mail and similar communication is the lack of sight of the person who wrote the piece. If you're up close and personal with someone and in the midst of a contentious debate you'll probably be careful to avoid pushing your audience too far and you'd do that by taking in clues from their body language. A punch in the mouth often offends!

When you write something all that is gone. There is no immediacy. No feedback. You write in splendid isolation and it's all too easy to put finger to keyboard without thinking of the consequences if something's annoyed you. At best this type of thread descends into a repetition of "Is too!" and "Is not!" At worst you get a flame war.

There's an old saying that nothing will lose you friends faster than discussing religion and politics with them and it's none the less true for being old. Granted, Chit-Chat is a forum for non-motorcycling issues but I don't think that means it's automatically a forum where anything goes. I've been around electronic communications since the early nineties, when I was first a Point and then a Node in Net 2504 in the old FidoNet amateur system. Then, as now, when certain topics started to overwhelm a forum it deterred the majority of its normal posters from contributing and occasionally led to the demise of what had been excellent forums. I'm not suggesting that is happening here but I don't want to see the remotest possibility of that happening. I can't see how restricting political and religious posts to their own forum(s) is an attack on free speech. Nobody is saying that such things cannot be discussed, though there's no necessity for it to be allowed in a specialist forum such as this one. The benefit is that those of us who are not interested, for whatever reason, don't have to wade through them to find what we do enjoy in Chit-Chat. IMO, allowing things to continue in Chit-Chat as they have been will damage it.

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