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post #1 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 9:22 am Thread Starter
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Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

How Orwellian.........
Trust your Government

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post #2 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 9:42 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Not even our country, so why do you care?

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post #3 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 9:42 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Yawn ....

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post #4 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 9:50 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
Yawn ....

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post #5 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 9:13 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

WOW!
That settles it!

I won't be moving to the UK tomorrow to become a UK citizen.
Bob

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post #6 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 10:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by BecketMa
WOW!
That settles it!

I won't be moving to the UK tomorrow to become a UK citizen.
Bob
It's OK. The beauty of it is, Barack will bring it HERE so you don't have to move! Sweet!

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post #7 of 31 Old Oct 14th, 2008, 11:22 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by KMC1
It's OK. The beauty of it is, Barack will bring it HERE so you don't have to move! Sweet!
Alright, then. Honestly, tell us what your plan is for providing decent, affordable health care to all US citizens? Well?

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post #8 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:00 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Alright, then. Honestly, tell us what your plan is for providing decent, affordable health care to all US citizens? Well?

Stop eating McCrap, get off your overweight posterior and exercise. Then get a f'n job with health insurance.

Then let the process of natural selection take its course.

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post #9 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 3:09 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by meese
Not even our country, so why do you care?
The country is not relevant. The concept is. It gives us a glimpse of what will happen WHEN (notice I did not say IF) socialized medicine is brought here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Alright, then. Honestly, tell us what your plan is for providing decent, affordable health care to all US citizens?...
The plan should be to get government as far away from health care as possible!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #10 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 6:05 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by meese
Alright, then. Honestly, tell us what your plan is for providing decent, affordable health care to all US citizens? Well?
Ken,

I've double checked and I can't find this anywhere in the Constitution. Did I miss it somehow? In case you hadn't noticed our Constitution doesn't create a socialist state but rather a Federal Republic. So who exactly is saying there needs to be a "plan" to provide health care to everyone. Obama made the comment during the last debate that in a country as wealthy as ours everyone should have health insurance. He must have missed the $11 trillion debt that we have. We aren't a wealthy or rich nation. We are BROKE.

My suggestion is that anyone who thinks they are entitled to free health care should move to Canada or pretty much anywhere in Europe. I'd even suggest we can spring for the one way plane ticket.

For anyone that wants to change the Constitution, there is a defined method within the Constitution for doing that. BTW, if we do that can I be King?

Kevin

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post #11 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 7:03 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - God Help Us!

I have practice medicine for 32 years as a Board Certified Family physician. I retired from private practice last October mainly because of my age and having to take night call, not to mention government and insurance hassels.

Afterwards, I worked as a contract physician for the US Army for 9 months. If you think our current private health care system is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet! The care provided (what care?) to our Soldiers and dependents is way below the standard of care that Charity Hospital, in New Orleans, provided to indigent care patients in the 1960s and 1970s during my training. I did my residency in Family Medicine in the Army form 1973-1976 and was the 8th physician to graduate from the Army Residency Program. Back then the standard of care was excellent, even with the government hassels and paper work. This time, I had a very hard time working there, as I could not morally lower my standard of care to the Army's level. Our soldiers desire much better than what they are getting. Walter Reed was just the tip of the iceberg.

God help us all, when the government finally takes over health care. I'm happy that I'm at the end of my career and will not have to work in a system that is non-caring and totally incompetent. However, I'll probably live long enough to see the complete destruction of what was once the best health care system in the world.

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post #12 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 7:25 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
It gives us a glimpse of what will happen WHEN (notice I did not say IF) socialized medicine is brought here.
Won't happen. too many people making too much money with the current situation. Always follow the money trail.

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post #13 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 7:34 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by kevincook
I've double checked and I can't find this anywhere in the Constitution. Did I miss it somehow?
Does the Constitution guarantee fresh, clean water to everyone? Or clean air? Or that each of us deserves to own a home, even if we can't really afford it and are in way over our heads? No problem, the government will just bail us out. The Constitution is a foundational document, not the be all and end all of being American.

And funny, I sure thought that we had a budget surplus when W took over 8 years ago. Pretty huge one, too. So tell me, where did all that money go?

And I never said that health care had to be "free". I said affordable, and available. Even employer-sponsored health plans cost the individual, in terms of co-payments, employee contributions, and lowered salaries to cover those costs. Nothing is free, ever.

But let mw ask you one thing. Do you think those that serve our country in uniform deserve decent health care? Again, I never said free, but at least a minimal level of care for them and their families?

As for being King and changing the Constitution at will, you're too late for all that. Unless you think that whole "unreasonable search and seizure" thing are just words, and not to be taken literally.

Funny though, anyone who disagrees with you or with This Great Country of Ours should just move away. So when did you become the Arbiter of America? I sure don't remember voting for that.

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post #14 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 7:36 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - God Help Us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWDOC
I'm happy that I'm at the end of my career and will not have to work in a system that is non-caring and totally incompetent.
And we appreciate all your efforts over the years. It's tough to see something that you love and have dedicated your life to slowly implode, even if we can't all agree on exactly why that is happening.

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post #15 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 7:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by meese
Alright, then. Honestly, tell us what your plan is for providing decent, affordable health care to all US citizens? Well?
The issue here is you're so ingrained with the idea of Socialism, you don't understand that Health Care is not a Right - it's a privilege. The problem has many causes, Liberalism and the Welfare State mentality being chief among them. Frivolous lawsuits don't help either. Sending our middle class jobs overseas doesn't help much, nor does giving benefits to illegal aliens or their anchor babies.
The problem is complex, the solution is not simple, and it's certainly not Socialism.

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post #16 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 9:19 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Well it sure is interesting that so many people that don't have something say they don't want it.
I have it, and I wouldn't do without it.
I guess it is down to social responsibility. Do you care enough about other people to subsidize their health or do you think 'I'm alright Jack'?
Actually I did go private once (employee perk) and the op I was sent for almost killed me. Fixed fee private care don't work, that's for sure. If you have a business running things, you have to have profits, cut corners, say people are not entitled whenever you can get away with it and basically just act like the typical insurance company.
The best spent money is on preventative care. You know who tops the list there? (ah, your not going to like this) Cuba!
You HAVE TO go to the doc for regular check ups, where problems are sorted at a fraction of the price due to the doc finding things out early. But it sounds like some people don't like being told they have to do anything.
The article mentioned here is about private physiotherapy - in the UK private physiotherapy is a million miles away from private healthcare. Not too many people would expect to see a physiotherapist within 6 months and any employer worth its salt would pay for this to get their employee back to work. Just makes financial sense.

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post #17 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 10:09 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Being rational won't do you any good.

Its the American way of life that Health Care be like shelter, buy what you can afford--if you can't afford any, sleep in the park and abandoned buildings.

Soon. If you don't make a minimum annual amount, so that you pay substantial taxes, you will be beheaded in a public square. This will encourage every American to work hard to become truly self-supporting.

Bob

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post #18 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 10:39 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by meese
And funny, I sure thought that we had a budget surplus when W took over 8 years ago. Pretty huge one, too. So tell me, where did all that money go?
Don't get me wrong, I think that Bush has done a terrible job on the economy (among other things), but in reality, we haven't had a budget surplus in a long, long time.

In 1992 the way the budget was calculated changed to include social security (resulting in the unified budget). This was done because the social security fund was running huge surpluses-and it is projected to run surpluses until ~2017. Politicians of both major parties have perpetuated this myth on the American public knowing that most of them will be long gone by the time it becomes necessary to start drawing funds from the treasury to pay social security. We are about 8-10 years away from a major tipping point in social security. Either FICA taxes will have to increase drastically or benefits will have to be drastically cut.

Don't believe me? See page 27 in the attached file.

2000 Federal budget

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post #19 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 10:42 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Damn it....I ran out of popcorn. Give me just a couple of minutes and I'll be right back.


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post #20 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 10:43 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - God Help Us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWDOC
I have practice medicine for 32 years as a Board Certified Family physician. I retired from private practice last October mainly because of my age and having to take night call, not to mention government and insurance hassels.

Afterwards, I worked as a contract physician for the US Army for 9 months. If you think our current private health care system is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet! The care provided (what care?) to our Soldiers and dependents is way below the standard of care that Charity Hospital, in New Orleans, provided to indigent care patients in the 1960s and 1970s during my training. I did my residency in Family Medicine in the Army form 1973-1976 and was the 8th physician to graduate from the Army Residency Program. Back then the standard of care was excellent, even with the government hassels and paper work. This time, I had a very hard time working there, as I could not morally lower my standard of care to the Army's level. Our soldiers desire much better than what they are getting. Walter Reed was just the tip of the iceberg.

God help us all, when the government finally takes over health care. I'm happy that I'm at the end of my career and will not have to work in a system that is non-caring and totally incompetent. However, I'll probably live long enough to see the complete destruction of what was once the best health care system in the world.
First, thanks for your service.

Second, this is a very interesting comment. I recently began seeing a new primary care physician who happens to be a Captain in the Navy Reserve and just recently returned from a deployment on the Teddy Roosevelt.

I mentioned that I served in the Marine Corps in the late 70's and was not impressed with the quality of care that I received. His opinion was that care provided by the Navy medical service now was much improved and was equal to that in the civilian world.

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post #21 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 11:10 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Does the Constitution guarantee fresh, clean water to everyone? Or clean air? Or that each of us deserves to own a home, even if we can't really afford it and are in way over our heads? No problem, the government will just bail us out. The Constitution is a foundational document, not the be all and end all of being American..
Of course the constitution doesn't guarantee fresh water or clean air, however, it is reasonable that we have regulations that prevent me from polluting your clean water and air. The constitution also doesn't guarantee a home to anyone, that is one of the two main incentives to work hard and save for your entire life. The constitution also doesn't guarantee you the right to retire and collect benefits for 30 years which is why we have an unfunded responsiblity of $53 trillion dollars in addition to the $11 trillion in debt. We are Broke!


Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
And funny, I sure thought that we had a budget surplus when W took over 8 years ago. Pretty huge one, too. So tell me, where did all that money go?.
I'm not sure, the House of Representatives is responsible for initiating all of the spending bills. Who's in charge of that? Don't get me wrong....Bush is a socialist too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
And I never said that health care had to be "free". I said affordable, and available. Even employer-sponsored health plans cost the individual, in terms of co-payments, employee contributions, and lowered salaries to cover those costs. Nothing is free, ever.
We agree here. Health care is expensive due to all the high technology. If we are satisfied with 20 year old health care technology it is really very inexpensive. That is the reason Walmart can have $4 prescriptions for drugs that where state of the art in 1988. The problem is everyone wants the latest and greatest and some people think everyone is entitled to that. I look at it like cars. If some of us have to drive Chevy's why do we assume everyone needs to have the Rolls Royce of health care? In reality we could afford the 20 year old Rolls Royce for EVERYONE. Why don't we make that the standard and allow people to upgrade their coverage from there?



Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
But let mw ask you one thing. Do you think those that serve our country in uniform deserve decent health care? Again, I never said free, but at least a minimal level of care for them and their families?.
Absolutely, I never said they didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
As for being King and changing the Constitution at will, you're too late for all that. Unless you think that whole "unreasonable search and seizure" thing are just words, and not to be taken literally..
I have no intention of changing the Constitution. I happen to like it the way it is. What I said was that if someone wants to change it, the details about the process are actually spelled out in the Constitution. But if we do change it...being king would be cool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Funny though, anyone who disagrees with you or with This Great Country of Ours should just move away. So when did you become the Arbiter of America? I sure don't remember voting for that.
Ken, I think you need new glasses. I did't say that at all, what I said was that anyone thinks they are entitled to FREE health care should move to someplace that already has it. They could also try to change the constitution here but in the end I think most Americans will agree that this country already is great so why try to fundamentally change it.

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post #22 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:03 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Quote:
Originally Posted by BecketMa
Being rational won't do you any good.

Its the American way of life that Health Care be like shelter, buy what you can afford--if you can't afford any, sleep in the park and abandoned buildings.

Soon. If you don't make a minimum annual amount, so that you pay substantial taxes, you will be beheaded in a public square. This will encourage every American to work hard to become truly self-supporting.

Bob
I seriously don't know how you guys deal with the stress. Loose your job, get ill and you are in big trouble. I suppose you can get insurance for that type of thing, but I just hate the way insurance companies try to wriggle out of their responsibilities.

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post #23 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:21 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

I don't have a problem with some of my tax dollars being used to make medical resources available to those that really need it and genuinely cannot afford it. I would rather use our resources that way than give our dollars away to other countries who want but don't appreciate our assistance.
I DO have a problem with spending tax dollars on health care for people who are ill because of poor or non-existant health practices.
I believe that by and large our health is in our own hands and we have more impact on it by how we choose to live our lives than doctors, hospitals and most assuredly the government.

Greg
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post #24 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:24 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
I don't have a problem with some of my tax dollars being used to make medical resources available to those that really need it and genuinely cannot afford it. I would rather use our resources that way than give our dollars away to other countries who want but don't appreciate our assistance.
I DO have a problem with spending tax dollars on health care for people who are ill because of poor or non-existant health practices.
I believe that by and large our health is in our own hands and we have more impact on it by how we choose to live our lives than doctors, hospitals and most assuredly the government.
+1 - Well said!

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post #25 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:28 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
I don't have a problem with some of my tax dollars being used to make medical resources available to those that really need it and genuinely cannot afford it. I would rather use our resources that way than give our dollars away to other countries who want but don't appreciate our assistance.
I DO have a problem with spending tax dollars on health care for people who are ill because of poor or non-existant health practices.
I believe that by and large our health is in our own hands and we have more impact on it by how we choose to live our lives than doctors, hospitals and most assuredly the government.
This is where the preventative methods come in. If check-ups are free (and maybe even compulsory), small problems don't turn into big problems.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #26 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:36 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by c00k1e
and maybe even compulsory
Only a person who has never known freedom would say such a thing. Do you really believe you are nothing more than a resource owned by your government? Compulsory doctor visits?! What's next, compulsory adherence to a government approved lifestyle? (with "free" days for your 40mg of Chocolate and victory gin). Pretty soon you will only be expected to "mate" when it's time to produce worker.. I mean children. Good luck living like that Homie, I'll either be dead or in prison well before that day comes. I suggest you take a couple hours and read 1984 - that is if it's still allowed to be read over there.

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post #27 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:39 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

One of my fav Monty Python sketches is the Vicar filing a claim only to be told that he had purchased a "No Pay" policy.

Griff will be happy to know, it came with a free naked woman.

Bob

"He was a foul caricature of himself, a man with no soul, no inner convictions, with the integrity of a hyena, and the style of a poison toad." H. S. Thompson
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post #28 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:43 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

It really depends on how you look at it I suppose. You HAVE to do many things, they are accepted. You HAVE to take a drivers test to drive a car. If you want free health care why not go for check ups that will, potentially, save your life?

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #29 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 12:51 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by c00k1e
It really depends on how you look at it I suppose. You HAVE to do many things, they are accepted. You HAVE to take a drivers test to drive a car. If you want free health care why not go for check ups that will, potentially, save your life?
And why not eat only what's allowed? Participate only in activities that are alllowed? (and btw, I don't think motorcycles will make that cut, or skiing, snowmobiling, rock climbing, etc) spend only the "recommended" amount of time in the sun? Use only approved toiletries? Drive only for the approved reasons? Produce only the "appropriate" amount of waste? And of the "appropriate" kind? Use only the appropriate amount of electricity, gas, coal, clothing materials, napkins, etc..............................
There are "valid reasons" for each one of those categories, and since your social consience is already at a point where it would be acceptable to force someone to see a doctor, it's not much of a leap to have that doctor report you to the authorities for not doing as directed, or the trash collector, gas meter reader, etc.

NO THANKS. I would much prefer to live than to survive.

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post #30 of 31 Old Oct 15th, 2008, 1:38 pm
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by KMC1
And why not eat only what's allowed? Participate only in activities that are alllowed? (and btw, I don't think motorcycles will make that cut, or skiing, snowmobiling, rock climbing, etc) spend only the "recommended" amount of time in the sun? Use only approved toiletries? Drive only for the approved reasons? Produce only the "appropriate" amount of waste? And of the "appropriate" kind? Use only the appropriate amount of electricity, gas, coal, clothing materials, napkins, etc..............................
There are "valid reasons" for each one of those categories, and since your social consience is already at a point where it would be acceptable to force someone to see a doctor, it's not much of a leap to have that doctor report you to the authorities for not doing as directed, or the trash collector, gas meter reader, etc.

NO THANKS. I would much prefer to live than to survive.
really good points that illustrate so well that the more we allow the government to "help" us or determine what is in our best interests and then mandate practices that would force us to live in a certain way, the less freedom we have. I AM for wearing helmets, but I am against the government telling us we have to. While I would love to see basic health care provided to those that cannot afford it, I cringe at the thought of government getting involved in that effort.

Greg
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post #31 of 31 Old Oct 16th, 2008, 12:31 am
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Re: Nationalized Health Care - Wonderful

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Originally Posted by kevincook
....In case you hadn't noticed our Constitution doesn't create a socialist state but rather a Federal Republic. So who exactly is saying there needs to be a "plan" to provide health care to everyone?....
But that's where you run into trouble. The constitution is void where prohibited by law! Remember?
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWDOC
....God help us all, when the government finally takes over health care....
Thank you for your service to our boys, doc. You're correct: we will see a dramatic drop in the quantity and quality of service AND make millions of more people economic slaves to their ever expanding nanny-state government (hacks).
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Won't happen. too many people making too much money with the current situation....
I would certainly hope so! That's what guarantees us the best health care available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Well it sure is interesting that so many people that don't have something say they don't want it....
WTF? Last week I got a call of some M/F'r that jumped out a 5th floor window. I didn't need to follow him to figure out that it was not a good thing to do! Double WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BecketMa
....Soon. If you don't make a minimum annual amount, so that you pay substantial taxes, you will be beheaded in a public square. This will encourage every American to work hard to become truly self-supporting.
Bob, I like where you're going with this....Tell us more!
Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
....If check-ups are free....
AND there is the basis for the REAL problem: NOTHING IS FREE! Spoken like someone who has no concept of what freedom is, even.

Gentlemen, tell me the price of your FREEDOM? If you can assign a value to all the blood that's been spilled, I will accept your price! No questions asked!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
really good points that illustrate so well that the more we allow the government to "help" us or determine what is in our best interests and then mandate practices that would force us to live in a certain way, the less freedom we have....
Beautifully said, Gary! Did we spill all this blood to be the bitch of some nanny-state big government hack(s)? Is that the spirit in which this country was founded?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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