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post #1 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 10:23 am Thread Starter
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Court Ruling

Washington Post Court: Americans Have Right to Own Guns for Defense, Hunting - 19 mins ago

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post #2 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 10:45 am
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Re: Court Ruling

Link to a short read.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...1&cat=breaking

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post #3 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 10:56 am
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Re: Court Ruling

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In a dissent he summarized from the bench, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that the majority "would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons."
Hmm, let's see, there's this thing called a constitution whose purpose is to limit government control, but the framers didn't want to limit elected official's control. I realize the SC is very much more a political organization than a legal one, but he did have to take a constitutional law class, didn't he? Can't you at least frame your argument so that it doesn't sound like you simply don't care what the law says? Sigh.

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post #4 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 1:01 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Mmm...that sounds like Chinese law to me bobnoxous, looks good on paper but aint' worth a shitz in reality, if I'm reading all this right.
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post #5 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 2:28 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

It's truly scary to realize that 4 out of 9 Justices do not believe in The Constitution, or the founding principles of this country.
The winds of change are blowing, and only by the narrowest of margins did we miss taking one HUGE step in the direction of becoming the Fascist/Socialist "dream" The Left has been striving for, for over 50 years.
Conservatives need to become more involved in our government lest the transition towards Fascism/Socialism continue unabated.

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post #6 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 2:47 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
It's truly scary to realize that 4 out of 9 Justices do not believe in The Constitution, or the founding principles of this country.
The winds of change are blowing, and only by the narrowest of margins did we miss taking one HUGE step in the direction of becoming the Fascist/Socialist "dream" The Left has been striving for, for over 50 years.
Conservatives need to become more involved in our government lest the transition towards Fascism/Socialism continue unabated.
In all fairness, I think 9 out of 9 don't care. Some of these same judges that ruled against the gun ban, e.g., Justice Antonin Scalia, ruled a couple weeks ago against allowing Guantanamo detainees to have a court hearing, justifying their position with the in-depth constitutional analysis of "it makes us less safe".

The judges seem to have a predetermined result they want, whether that's based on their own values, or the party that put them on the court. The trick is then to figure out how to spin the ruling to not blatantly conflict with constitutional law. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes, they don't even try.

To use the common labels, conservatives seem no more interested in the constitution than liberals. They just differ on how they choose to ignore it.

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post #7 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 4:50 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
Conservatives need to become more involved in our government (
Yes we do. Run for office like I did. I sent the head good old boy packing!

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post #8 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 8:30 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

There don't seem to be many conservatives out there these days. Look at McCain. He's no conservative. RINO = Republican in Name Only. Too many of them around. For some reason, conservatives think they can't get elected and the RINOs who are elected think they have to "work with" the liberals. Work with them by rolling rough-shod over them. The liberals will do it in a heart-beat. The majority of Charlotte, NC's City Council and Mecklenburg County's Commissioners are tax and spend liberals. They have no problem throwing the conservatives under the bus. I'm thankful that I don't live there, don't shop there, and no longer work there.

I heard a talk-radio host talking about the vote today. He said he doubted that Ruth Buzzi Ginsberg ever read the Constitution.

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post #9 of 36 Old Jun 26th, 2008, 9:28 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by norriscooper
Yes we do. Run for office like I did. I sent the head good old boy packing!
Man, you made my whole DAY!!!!

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post #10 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 12:38 am
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
In all fairness, I think 9 out of 9 don't care. Some of these same judges that ruled against the gun ban, e.g., Justice Antonin Scalia, ruled a couple weeks ago against allowing Guantanamo detainees to have a court hearing, justifying their position with the in-depth constitutional analysis of "it makes us less safe".
..........................
To use the common labels, conservatives seem no more interested in the constitution than liberals. They just differ on how they choose to ignore it.
Howdy Bob,
I've read the Constitution of the United States of America and I failed to find anything in it that extends it's rights to NON-Americans on FOREIGN soil.

Does this ruling mean that a U.S. Marine in Iraq in a firefight with Terrorists and the last one surrenders; now he has to go collect evidence that this guy was shooting at, or killing, his brothers in the Corps because the Terrorist can appeal to U.S. Courts under Habeas Corpus and not simply sit in a holding pen until the end of hostilities?

In this Case, the Supremes got it wrong.


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post #11 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 1:48 am
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
Howdy Bob,
I've read the Constitution of the United States of America and I failed to find anything in it that extends it's rights to NON-Americans on FOREIGN soil.

Does this ruling mean that a U.S. Marine in Iraq in a firefight with Terrorists and the last one surrenders; now he has to go collect evidence that this guy was shooting at, or killing, his brothers in the Corps because the Terrorist can appeal to U.S. Courts under Habeas Corpus and not simply sit in a holding pen until the end of hostilities?

In this Case, the Supremes got it wrong.

Hi Billy.

How did we handle German prisoners in WW II? I don't think we sent forensic teams into the battlefield to collect evidence to prosecute prisoners. Only the high-up Nazis had trials. I'm not sure how battlefields are handled, but that wasn't the issue before the court.

The US government paid countries to collect terrorists based on a head count, so the more heads, the more money. They were pulled off the street, from homes, wherever, and sent to Guantanamo with no evidence and no chance to defend themselves or even know what the justification for their detainment was. That was the real issue. Does someone have a right to know why they're being held, and to defend themselves. The military tribunals were a farce.

Evidence isn't really a problem on the battlefield, but it is when you're dragged out of your bed and shipped half way around the world bound and gagged. Many people held in Guantanamo were completely innocent and were not taken from any battlefield. If they didn't hate the US before, they sure have a reason to now. I wonder what the ones who survived are teaching their kids.

But the point of my post was, Scalia did not justify his opinion in the law, he justified it with political dogma. Whatever he may think about what should be done, he's supposed to be bound by the law. If I ignore the law as a citizen, it won't affect anyone but I may still go to jail. A SC judge can ignore it and it affects everyone but they won't ever be penalized.

If it's unconstitutional, amend it. That's what was done for alcohol prohibition, but we don't bother with such details today, we just pass drug laws, violate due process, whatever our agenda, and then just wave the flag or hold up the children. Such rhetoric has always been effective. Amending the constitution is work, and might let people think they have some rights the feds cannot just trample on. We cannot have that.

I just cannot understand why people seem so strongly for republicans or democrats when they both seem slightly different shades of the same brush stroke. They both suck, IMO, and they both ignore the constitution on a regular basis. I've been politically homeless for a long time, so I'm not passionate about these party debates. Once you realize you're not represented and have no real say, life gets a little easier.

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post #12 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 5:09 am
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Re: Court Ruling

Howdy Bob,

The debate is fun and I truly respect your point of view whether I agree with it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
...
How did we handle German prisoners in WW II? I don't think we sent forensic teams into the battlefield to collect evidence to prosecute prisoners. Only the high-up Nazis had trials.
In the case you referenced, what was "before the court" was does the U.S. Constitution apply to Non-U.S. Citizens on Foreign soil, in this case Cuba. The U.S. and Allies did a similar thing in Germany by developing the "Nuremberg Trials". These were AFTER hostilities had ended, were for leaders of a sovereign State and the participants had ZERO ability to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court for relief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
I'm not sure how battlefields are handled, but that wasn't the issue before the court.
Sure it was. The U.S. and Allies are fighting the "ENEMY" in Afghanistan and those that are "CAPTURED" are being held in "CUBA" while the war in Afghanistan continues and our coalition soldiers are dying THIS MONTH at a rate higher than in Iraq. Letting a few people (around 300) "captured" in Afghanistan sit in a prison while we continue the fight seems appropriate to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
The US government paid countries to collect terrorists based on a head count, so the more heads, the more money. They were pulled off the street, from homes, wherever, and sent to Guantanamo with no evidence and no chance to defend themselves or even know what the justification for their detainment was. That was the real issue. Does someone have a right to know why they're being held, and to defend themselves. The military tribunals were a farce.
First off, this is war, War, WAR, this isn't getting a DUI and trying to fight a ticket. These guys hold a geo-politico-religious position that supported the killing of 3,000 innocent civilians and the WTC Towers on 9/11. Again, my point is that the U.S. Constitution does not apply to Non-Americans on Foreign soil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
Evidence isn't really a problem on the battlefield, but it is when you're dragged out of your bed and shipped half way around the world bound and gagged. Many people held in Guantanamo were completely innocent and were not taken from any battlefield. If they didn't hate the US before, they sure have a reason to now. I wonder what the ones who survived are teaching their kids.
Pardon my French but, how the f-ck do you know some of them were "completely innocent"? My "opinion" is that out of the thousands, if not tens of thousands, of captives taken by the U.S. during the "war on terror" we are only holding on to a couple of hundred in Cuba. Of those they released, a fairly large percentage (I'm not going to source it, but IRC it was about 20%) were re-encountered on the battlefield. You say that if they didn't hate us before, they hate us now. I say that what led to 9/11 was only partially hatred but, included huge amounts of contempt and disrespect. The Islamo-Facists sponsored the WTC bombing in 1993 and the U.S. response was and FBI case which ignored the source of the problem. U.S. Embassies blown up in Africa and no response from the U.S., nothing. "Black Hawk Down" in Samalia trying to assist the starving in that country and we simply left when 18 of our soldiers were killed (because that A-Hole Aspin didn't want to give our troops tanks because it would "look bad"). The Cole is blown up and a few cruise missiles fired at a camp in Afghanistan, and that's it. At what point does the U.S. acknowledge that it's at war and start to fight? ...flash in my head while writing this.... if we act like a pussy, then we should expect to get f'd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
But the point of my post was, Scalia did not justify his opinion in the law, he justified it with political dogma. Whatever he may think about what should be done, he's supposed to be bound by the law. If I ignore the law as a citizen, it won't affect anyone but I may still go to jail. A SC judge can ignore it and it affects everyone but they won't ever be penalized.
I think you're focusing on Scalia's comments regarding the consequences of the decision, not the basis of the decision. His argument was that the U.S. Constitution does not extend to those captured in battle during war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
If it's unconstitutional, amend it. That's what was done for alcohol prohibition, but we don't bother with such details today, we just pass drug laws, violate due process, whatever our agenda, and then just wave the flag or hold up the children. Such rhetoric has always been effective. Amending the constitution is work, and might let people think they have some rights the feds cannot just trample on. We cannot have that.
Sometime cynicism is the only thing that will keep one sane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
I just cannot understand why people seem so strongly for republicans or democrats when they both seem slightly different shades of the same brush stroke. They both suck, IMO, and they both ignore the constitution on a regular basis. I've been politically homeless for a long time, so I'm not passionate about these party debates. Once you realize you're not represented and have no real say, life gets a little easier.
Wasn't it Churchill that said, in essence, that Democracy is a terrible form of government except of all those tried before? I may disagree with my parties platform and think that it should move to the center on a couple of the issues, but the alternative is to shift to the "other side" where MANY of positions are in opposition to my beliefs. To simply abstain will not move the consensus one way or another. On that note, this election is HUGE. There will be at least one, perhaps two Supreme Court Justices that will be replaced during the next four years. The Court is fairly evenly divided, hence a lot of recent 5-4 decisions and so if a more liberal president is elected the balance will remain and if the more conservative is elected, then the balance will shift that direction.

.

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post #13 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 2:13 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by KMC1
Conservatives need to become more involved in our government lest the transition towards Fascism/Socialism continue unabated.
Yeah, because that has worked so well for the past 8 years.

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post #14 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 5:00 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
The debate is fun and I truly respect your point of view whether I agree with it or not.
I appreciate that. This is a sensitive topic, and a lot of people have loved ones in harms way. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but in a country that at least portends to be free, criticism of the government, including how they use the military, is imperative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
[/font]First off, this is war, War, WAR, this isn't getting a DUI and trying to fight a ticket. These guys hold a geo-politico-religious position that supported the killing of 3,000 innocent civilians and the WTC Towers on 9/11. Again, my point is that the U.S. Constitution does not apply to Non-Americans on Foreign soil.
All of them supported 9/11? Really? Even the US government admits that many Guantanamo detainees had no ties to terrorism, and just got caught up in the sweep. That's how I know some of them were innocent. As for evil thoughts, I really think we need to focus more on people's acts. This thought police thing is getting pretty bad as it is. I've already had a couple illegal thoughts today.

This current "war" if we insist on calling it that, because the government obviously doesn't want to declare it, is not a war in the traditional sense. It will never end. Terrorism has been around forever, and always will be. We are viewed as terrorists in countries where we've aided one side so they could forcibly eliminate the other. We've planted our favorites. We've interfered in other countries where we had no right to do so, unless you believe in might makes right. That's what led to the attack on 9/11. It didn't just happen. It's called blowback, and is a well known intelligence factor when considering intervention. The fact that we didn't realize the blowback would be as big as it was isn't the same thing as our government not realizing that by installing puppets in other countries and supporting brutal, evil people like the Saudi royal family, we'd be exposing ourself to attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
I think you're focusing on Scalia's comments regarding the consequences of the decision, not the basis of the decision. His argument was that the U.S. Constitution does not extend to those captured in battle during war.
My quip about Scalia ignoring the law was based on a "bite" from USA today. His court brief may be rationalized somehow. One more thing to add to my reading list, but Scalia has a long history of not being a friend to the constitution, and when what's reported is him spewing political dogma, it's scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
In the case you referenced, what was "before the court" was does the U.S. Constitution apply to Non-U.S. Citizens on Foreign soil, in this case Cuba. The U.S. and Allies did a similar thing in Germany by developing the "Nuremberg Trials". These were AFTER hostilities had ended, were for leaders of a sovereign State and the participants had ZERO ability to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court for relief.
I'm not sure, but I don't think the ruling says detainees have the right to appeal their cases to the supreme court. I think it only means thay have a right to a trial by the judicial system, instead of a military system. But this is news, and would never be covered on network TV, so it'll require more investigation.

As for US citizens, you do realize, that the government did the same thing with Jose Padia, who is a US citizen, right? They accused him of being a terrorist, made up complete lies to support this because they had no evidence, tortured him in Guantanamo until he could barely form a sentence, and dropped charges whenever it might get to court that would limit the powers the government declared it had in the military commissions act. People don't generally care, because Padia is a violent gangbanger, but of course this will be expanded. Do you trust the government to not go too far, whatever that means to you? What happens when people just disappear, or are guilty simply because they're accused of heinous crimes? Is that the country we want, where you are guilty until proven innocent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
At what point does the U.S. acknowledge that it's at war and start to fight? ...flash in my head while writing this.... if we act like a pussy, then we should expect to get f'd.
Hmm, so we have a military presence in over 130 countries, we put our military ships in all major ports, we prop up governments that people don't want, and then when we're attacked, we act all surprised and say "Holy crap, it's war!" Well, duh. What did you think would happen? It's what always happens.

Expansionist regimes eventually weaken, and the people they've suppressed (we've done a lot of good, but we've done our fair share of suppression as well) will take advantage of that. This is just history repeating itself. The US will pull back and become a more defensive force, just like the British did after getting worn down in Africa before WW 2, or the Roman empire. We're not special. We will go down the same path powerful countries always go down. It's not that interesting to debate when the US will become a former world power. It's more interesting to ask who the next super power will be, and if they'll be nice to us. It might help if we've been nice to them, but I don't think that usually makes much difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
[font=Comic Sans MS]Wasn't it Churchill that said, in essence, that Democracy is a terrible form of government except of all those tried before?
Churchill did say something like that, but I disagree. Democracy is a terrible form of government, mob rule essentially. The worship we give it is what's been ingrained in us in the government schools. A contstitutional republic is much better, but only if the constitution is actually followed. Sadly, that's not the case in the US.

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post #15 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 5:25 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by meese
Yeah, because that has worked so well for the past 8 years.
If you think it's bad now, just wait until we are living in the Socialist Utopia the "Liberals" keep pushing for. It's bad enough now that we have a government which is Quasi-Socialist - B.O. will be a different version of Hugo Chavez, and he will be appointing Justices during his tenure. Just think what it's going to be like when "Progressive" Judges are ruling on basic tenets of this country. Be thankful there are as many Conservatives as there are.

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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
It's truly scary to realize that 4 out of 9 Justices do not believe in The Constitution, or the founding principles of this country.
The winds of change are blowing, and only by the narrowest of margins did we miss taking one HUGE step in the direction of becoming the Fascist/Socialist "dream" The Left has been striving for, for over 50 years.
Conservatives need to become more involved in our government lest the transition towards Fascism/Socialism continue unabated.
Take a good look at the changes such as the Patriot Act fomented by the conservatives and then tell me who is pushing fascism.

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post #17 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 6:34 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
Is that the country we want, where you are guilty until proven innocent?
We're already there, just look around.
Quote:
Hmm, so we have a military presence in over 130 countries, we put our military ships in all major ports, we prop up governments that people don't want, and then when we're attacked, we act all surprised and say "Holy crap, it's war!" Well, duh. What did you think would happen? It's what always happens.
And if we supported the "other guys" we'd have a different group of people hating and attacking us. You can't please everyone.
I say we go back to our pre-WWII policy of isolationism and let the rest of the world kill each other off.
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post #18 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 7:19 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by Morley
We're already there, just look around.
I know, but it could still get worse and I'm arguing to prevent even more damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
And if we supported the "other guys" we'd have a different group of people hating and attacking us. You can't please everyone.
I say we go back to our pre-WWII policy of isolationism and let the rest of the world kill each other off.
Absolutely true. Our government shouldn't pick sides. If individual people want to, fine, let the individual support whomever. The country as a whole wouldn't be a target, because all sides would probably collect some money, and it's an individual's choice. That crazy, freedom concept.

Trade is the key to improving ourselves and the world. Let the costs of doing business reflect the real cost, without subsidizing an industry through military support that is paid for through coercive taxes. If the Middle East is a hotbed that won't attract foreign investment, you can bet those countries would get the act together in a hurry.

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post #19 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 7:32 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
...All of them supported 9/11? Really? Even the US government admits that many Guantanamo detainees had no ties to terrorism, and just got caught up in the sweep. That's how I know some of them were innocent.
Yes, the U.S. Government determined that many of the detainees at Gitmo were merely caught being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But the U.S. Government did the right thing and released them even though some were "in fact" combatants and were captured or killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan. This was done without Habeaus Corpus or extending the Constitution beyond our borders. Your example is about what was right about the handling of the detainees by the U.S. and not was wrong with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
....This current "war" if we insist on calling it that, because the government obviously doesn't want to declare it, is not a war in the traditional sense. It will never end. Terrorism has been around forever, and always will be.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, eats like a duck and shits like a duck, it's a duck. We are at war, perhaps a new kind of war, but it is possible to win it. I agree that terrorism will always be around but that is merely a tactic of a particular adversary. The issue is whether it is possible to defeat a distinctly oriented adversary that uses terrorism. The answer is absolutely! The British bringing the IRA to heel is one recent example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
We are viewed as terrorists in countries where we've aided one side so they could forcibly eliminate the other. We've planted our favorites. We've interfered in other countries where we had no right to do so, unless you believe in might makes right. That's what led to the attack on 9/11. It didn't just happen. It's called blowback, and is a well known intelligence factor when considering intervention. The fact that we didn't realize the blowback would be as big as it was isn't the same thing as our government not realizing that by installing puppets in other countries and supporting brutal, evil people like the Saudi royal family, we'd be exposing ourself to attack.
Okay....So what your solution? We are a large country that has interests around the world. If UBL objects to us being in Saudi Arabia, then are we supposed to say "sorry" we'll leave (we actually did leave Saudi Arabia to minimize Islamic fanatics...before 9/11...for all the good that did)? If an adversary wants to talk to us, then talk. We make deals all over the world. But if the adversary is rooted in the idea that you will convert or be killed, it is not the basis for making a lasting peace.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
.....

....

As for US citizens, you do realize, that the government did the same thing with Jose Padia, who is a US citizen, right? They accused him of being a terrorist, made up complete lies to support this because they had no evidence, tortured him in Guantanamo until he could barely form a sentence, and dropped charges whenever it might get to court that would limit the powers the government declared it had in the military commissions act. People don't generally care, because Padia is a violent gangbanger, but of course this will be expanded. Do you trust the government to not go too far, whatever that means to you? What happens when people just disappear, or are guilty simply because they're accused of heinous crimes? Is that the country we want, where you are guilty until proven innocent?
Note: Jose Padilla never went to Gitmo and was never tortured. He was held in solitary confinement and questioned at military bases in the U.S..
His attorney said that the solitary confinement had rendered him basically unable to communicate. At the time it was widely held that the attorney was merely trying to make the best case for how tough the system had been on Jose Padilla.

Regardless, yes, the Administration "over-reached" on this one and was "slapped down" by the Judicial branch. Jose Padilla did however get processed through the court system and was sentenced to 17 years and is at the SuperMax prison in Florence, Colorado.

Padilla was not tried on the "dirty bomb" charge because the Fed's couldn't put a strong enough case together in order to satisfy our domestic-non-military tribunal legal system. This doesn't mean he's innocent, it just means that it's more trouble than it's worth to try him for those particular charges. I'm okay with this outcome for a U.S. citizen. We have to deal with our own citizens within the structure of the Constitution. If our citizens start turning to terrorism, we need to address the root cause and go after it within the existing systems.

Again this an example of the system and the Constitution working as designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
Hmm, so we have a military presence in over 130 countries, we put our military ships in all major ports, we prop up governments that people don't want, and then when we're attacked, we act all surprised and say "Holy crap, it's war!" Well, duh. What did you think would happen? It's what always happens.
Again, what's your solution? The fact is, our presence around the world, on balance, helps keep the peace. Sure we screw up and back the wrong horse, but when you're out there moving and shaking you just try to get it right more than you get it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
Expansionist regimes eventually weaken, and the people they've suppressed (we've done a lot of good, but we've done our fair share of suppression as well) will take advantage of that. This is just history repeating itself. The US will pull back and become a more defensive force, just like the British did after getting worn down in Africa before WW 2, or the Roman empire. We're not special. We will go down the same path powerful countries always go down. It's not that interesting to debate when the US will become a former world power. It's more interesting to ask who the next super power will be, and if they'll be nice to us. It might help if we've been nice to them, but I don't think that usually makes much difference.
The difference between the U.S. and other former dominant world powers is that we do not "colonize". Our influence is much more subtle and results in hegemony without the costs associated with maintaining a colonial dominance. Our British cousins may not be a Hyper, or even Super, Power any more, but they want to maintain a world that is interdependant and therefore ends up being more peaceful. Again, if we don't stay engaged then what should we do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
Churchill did say something like that, but I disagree. Democracy is a terrible form of government, mob rule essentially. The worship we give it is what's been ingrained in us in the government schools. A contstitutional republic is much better, but only if the constitution is actually followed. Sadly, that's not the case in the US.
Bob, you sound disaffected. Cheer up, there's an election coming up and an opportunity to pick between two polar opposite candidates.

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post #20 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 8:35 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
Absolutely true. Our government shouldn't pick sides. If individual people want to, fine, let the individual support whomever. The country as a whole wouldn't be a target, because all sides would probably collect some money, and it's an individual's choice. That crazy, freedom concept.

Trade is the key to improving ourselves and the world. Let the costs of doing business reflect the real cost, without subsidizing an industry through military support that is paid for through coercive taxes. If the Middle East is a hotbed that won't attract foreign investment, you can bet those countries would get the act together in a hurry.
Actually governments have to pick sides, EVERY single one does. It is done for treaties, alliances and trade negotiations . No matter WHAT you do, or WHO you are "friends" with, you're going to piss off someone else. And when that someone else is a whack job, you have your hands full.
Take a look at their radical version of Islam...they don't want converts, they want corpses, of everyone that is not of Islam. To those kind of people it doesn't matter what your "government" does, YOU are the enemy and they want you dead.
Face it, it is a F___ed up world out there and people enjoy killing each other just to kill each other.
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post #21 of 36 Old Jun 27th, 2008, 9:15 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

What bothers me and most of the world about the acts of the US is not picking sides. It's picking sides for the our own self-interests even when we end up supporting cruel and oppressive regimes. we say we support democracy but we only do that when it suits us financiallyand politically, We have not been true to our principles for so long I doubt if we even know what they are anymore...or worse, we just don't care. It has become about survival and values and morality and fairness have gone out the window. We may have once been the home of the brave but it doesn't seem that way to me anymore. We are willing to trade our basic rights for a promise of greater safety, an illusion really. I think our founding fathers would be appalled. I know i am.

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post #22 of 36 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 12:43 am
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
It has become about survival
Not become, it has always been about survival. That is what prompted people to travel to the "new world". They wern't "great explorers". They were fleeing, fleeing opression, conscription, taxation, persecution, prosecution, incarceration, death...you name it.
We have always been involved with countries and leaders of "questionable morality". We have been manupliating others since this country was founded, this is nothing new. Every "major power" trys to manupliate its "allies" and others to make themselves either richer, safer or more powerful. It is just human nature and has been going on since the beginning of time.
People complain about our sanctions against Cuba but the same people complained and finger pointed at our involvement in Panama. So, we "support" one dictator and it is bad, we don't "support" another and THAT is bad. Face it, you/we can't win, someone is always going to be pissed off no matter WHAT we do.
We put people like Saddam in a position to sieze power, thinking he is the "most stable" choice, and he was, for a time. Same goes in Panama. In the Philippines they had an election and ousted our "friends", then wanted us out of their country...we left. People boo-hooed about that too.
No matter what, you just can't make everyone happy, don't try, you'll only make yourself crazy.
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post #23 of 36 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 7:03 am
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
Not become, it has always been about survival. That is what prompted people to travel to the "new world". They wern't "great explorers". They were fleeing, fleeing opression, conscription, taxation, persecution, prosecution, incarceration, death...you name it.
We have always been involved with countries and leaders of "questionable morality". We have been manupliating others since this country was founded, this is nothing new. Every "major power" trys to manupliate its "allies" and others to make themselves either richer, safer or more powerful. It is just human nature and has been going on since the beginning of time.
People complain about our sanctions against Cuba but the same people complained and finger pointed at our involvement in Panama. So, we "support" one dictator and it is bad, we don't "support" another and THAT is bad. Face it, you/we can't win, someone is always going to be pissed off no matter WHAT we do.
We put people like Saddam in a position to sieze power, thinking he is the "most stable" choice, and he was, for a time. Same goes in Panama. In the Philippines they had an election and ousted our "friends", then wanted us out of their country...we left. People boo-hooed about that too.
No matter what, you just can't make everyone happy, don't try, you'll only make yourself crazy.
That's fine, then let's call a spade a spade and quit pretending that we own some moral high ground and are somehow better than everyone else. We're no better at all. We torture prisoners now and defend it, we invade countries that never attacked us, we lie openly to defend our actions, we give up our rights as if they were nothing, we manipulate politics and governments in other countries to our own financial gain. We are not the shining city on the hill,we are just another corrupt, self-serving, fearful, jingoistic tribe. So, let's quit all the pretense that we are somehow serving some greater good and "promoting democracy around the globe." We promote what suits us when it suits us and how it suits us, just like everyone else.

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post #24 of 36 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 1:42 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by gpolakow
We promote what suits us when it suits us and how it suits us, just like everyone else.
Exactly. We are no better or worse than any other nation, well, maybe better than some.
Remember the old saying " Only the strong shall survive." We have been living by that rule since the dawn of time.
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post #25 of 36 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 7:32 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
That's fine, then let's call a spade a spade and quit pretending that we own some moral high ground and are somehow better than everyone else. We're no better at all. We torture prisoners now and defend it, we invade countries that never attacked us, we lie openly to defend our actions, we give up our rights as if they were nothing, we manipulate politics and governments in other countries to our own financial gain. We are not the shining city on the hill,we are just another corrupt, self-serving, fearful, jingoistic tribe. So, let's quit all the pretense that we are somehow serving some greater good and "promoting democracy around the globe." We promote what suits us when it suits us and how it suits us, just like everyone else.
Thats about the most obscene and distorted paragraph of hate to wards one country I ever read..... You must practice that allot...

I just don't understand,, if I felt half as bad about my country as you seem to feel about yours I would be forced to move away....But following the rhythm and theme of your post I realize it is in fact practiced and not an original thought.... This is the greatest, kindest, most forgiving, honorable country in the world,, and the proof is in the fact that you are allowed to talk such trash with impunity,, Alls you want to do is point out some imperfection's which are minor compared to the rest of the world and try to make them sound like your points represent the views of us all.... In reality they don't represent this country at all....

So what if we interrogate a few prisoners a little rough,, they have killed ALL the uniformed prisoners they have caught....But you don't know,, your statement proves that........I'm done with this......................Pete

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post #26 of 36 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 9:34 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
That's fine, then let's call a spade a spade and quit pretending that we own some moral high ground and are somehow better than everyone else. We're no better at all. We torture prisoners now and defend it, we invade countries that never attacked us, we lie openly to defend our actions, we give up our rights as if they were nothing, we manipulate politics and governments in other countries to our own financial gain. We are not the shining city on the hill,we are just another corrupt, self-serving, fearful, jingoistic tribe. So, let's quit all the pretense that we are somehow serving some greater good and "promoting democracy around the globe." We promote what suits us when it suits us and how it suits us, just like everyone else.
Nicely argued. Your post is logical and highlights some disturbing facts pertaining to our once great nation. Somehow it is hard to fathom how we, as a people, have allowed the elitist factions to drag the country, the constitution and our credibility through the gutter for their own gain. I love this country, but I detest the Empire.
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post #27 of 36 Old Jun 28th, 2008, 11:08 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
Exactly. We are no better or worse than any other nation, well, maybe better than some.
Remember the old saying " Only the strong shall survive." We have been living by that rule since the dawn of time.

And I wouldn't want to Not be on the strong side.

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post #28 of 36 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 4:48 am
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Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
It's truly scary to realize that 4 out of 9 Justices do not believe in The Constitution, or the founding principles of this country....
And when I keep telling you that your constitutional rights are void where prohibited by law, you think I'm kidding?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
....I just cannot understand why people seem so strongly for republicans or democrats when they both seem slightly different shades of the same brush stroke. They both suck, IMO, and they both ignore the constitution on a regular basis....
+1!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
....At what point does the U.S. acknowledge that it's at war and start to fight? ...flash in my head while writing this.... if we act like a pussy, then we should expect to get f'd.
We don't have the balls to win this war. There might be to much colateral damage and that would make us look bad!....[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Yeah, because that has worked so well for the past 8 years.
About the same as the 8 before--and the next 8!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyOmaha
....Cheer up, there's an election coming up and an opportunity to pick between two polar opposite candidates.
Oh sweet Jesus! I can see it now: the arguments over who's the bigger liberal/socialist....I am! No, I am!....
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
....We torture prisoners now and defend it, we invade countries that never attacked us....
Based on the intel we've gotten the last few decades, we better do a MUCH BETTER JOB of torturing them, then!

If we're gonna invade a country that never attacked us, we still have to kill people and break things--you know, just like one of those real wars.

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post #29 of 36 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 8:04 am
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Re: Court Ruling

The problem with torture is that it's a slippery slope.

Where do you draw the line?

The next thing you know, we'll be torturing and burning women, etc, at the stake again all in the name of something so some perverts can do their 'work' in relative peace, for awhile at least.

There has to be a better way. We have drugs that entice someone to tell the truth without physical pain, etc, is that considered torture too? I dunno.

In my opinion the recent problems/wars we've been having are not in the best interest of this country. My observations indicate to me this is not much more than a holy war that we've now injected ourselves into. It will last forever, as holy wars do. And it has made some people very very rich, as all wars do.

If ya walk into a redneck/biker/bad bar of choice...duh, ya might get a black eye as a result.

Interesting discussion regardless, i don't ever remember having this much debate in school!
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post #30 of 36 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 5:43 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldbikin

In my opinion the recent problems/wars we've been having are not in the best interest of this country. My observations indicate to me this is not much more than a holy war that we've now injected ourselves into. It will last forever, as holy wars do. And it has made some people very very rich, as all wars do.

Indeed we are in a holy war, although I don't believe we "injected ourselves into it". These people do not want any other form of religion or religious freedom other than theirs' They are determined to kill you, me, our families, anyone who doesn't follow their ideas. It is this aggression that must be stopped.

The current administration has obviously not handled things very well on a number of fronts, but they have taken a stand against the Islamist who want most of us (Christians, Jews, Buddists, Agnostics, even atheists) dead. This religious conflict may last a very long time, maybe "forever" but the only way to slow it down if not end it will be by force, either ours or theirs. The only way that OB can change things by talking with them is to declare that we all "praise Allah"

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post #31 of 36 Old Jun 30th, 2008, 11:29 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieg
Indeed we are in a holy war, although I don't believe we "injected ourselves into it". These people do not want any other form of religion or religious freedom other than theirs' They are determined to kill you, me, our families, anyone who doesn't follow their ideas. It is this aggression that must be stopped.

The current administration has obviously not handled things very well on a number of fronts, but they have taken a stand against the Islamist who want most of us (Christians, Jews, Buddists, Agnostics, even atheists) dead. This religious conflict may last a very long time, maybe "forever" but the only way to slow it down if not end it will be by force, either ours or theirs. The only way that OB can change things by talking with them is to declare that we all "praise Allah"

-Chuck-
I really don't buy this extreme view. There are Christians who also kill people who don't believe in their faith, right here in this country. Are we in danger of them taking over society? No, because they're a fringe and not part of the mainstream.

The only thing we can hope to accomplish is make extreme Islam a fringe, like extreme Christianity is. Recruiting has been made much easier, not just because of the invasion of Iraq (which was based on lies), but our methods of picking favorites in the middle east over the last 50 years or so. Extreme Islam didn't become popular over night.

BTW, thanks for clearing up some of my information, Billy. I am getting some of my "facts" confused. Padia was never in Guantanamo. Not that I think the system worked in his case, but I certainly don't want to spread "false facts".

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post #32 of 36 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 5:40 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Originally Posted by KMC1
Conservatives need to become more involved in our government lest the transition towards Fascism/Socialism continue unabated.
It seems to me, one did ... and was president for eight long years.

It didn't work out very well.
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post #33 of 36 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 6:47 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

I am really enjoying reading this debate.

My problem is I read one point of view and say to myself, yeah that makes sense, then the other side, and say, yeah that makes sense.

I don't have the answers, but I do know that Every place I've travelled, and when I see what other governments do, I do believe that we have the best form of government around.

That doesn't mean it is alway right, nor does it mean it is popular throughout the world.

The best part, is that we can help to change it. With enough signatures, the people can force things to happen, it just takes work.

Our problem is not the government, but the apathy of our citizens of late.

Of which I am ashamed to say I have been drug down into.

Voting for the last 4 Presidental elections hasn't been about who I want in office, it has been about the lesser of two evils.

The constitution is a great document, of which I recently purchased and read for the first time since high school. It stands the test of time. As long as we don't Ammend it out of existence, its principals will keep things straight.

Although I still believe that this country is the best in the world, it can be turned into something else. That is what we need to be on guard about.

There never has, nor will there ever be "Peace in the Middle East". I just don't want to see our great nation turn into a European Nation where the police are armed on every street corner, cameras on every street corner, privacy invaded at will.

For me, the current "Republican" leaders are throwing that away.
The "Democrats" would cure everything with a government program that will be so watered down that nobody gets any benefit, except the government taxes being generated to pay for it.
So.......
Which is the more dangerous to give up or give in to when voting ?
Either way I vote, I'm voting for someone who is going to destroy something I cherish in this nation.

Signed,

Disappointed, Dazed, And Confused

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post #34 of 36 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 8:45 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalLT
It seems to me, one did ... and was president for eight long years.

It didn't work out very well.
Why do people always distort the issues like this. I'm sorry, but Bush is really not a true Conservative, nor can anyone sit back and say things have "not worked out very well".
I'm so sick of listening to people start off with the premise that this country is so screwed up, and everything is lost, and if we don't "change" something the world is going to end etc. etc. etc. Hogwash!
And you know what? Most of the time I hear this, it's from some out of work Liberal, who's "working towards a degree".... and they're like 30 years old still living with mommy and daddy. Please. Stop milking the dog and get to work already! Ugh...

Things are NOT bad in this country. We're relatively safe from violence. How many of US missed a meal because of money in the last week? Month? Year? Ten Years??? Please. Do we all have enough education to use a computer as well as the money to get onto the Internet with it? Which by the way is THE Internet - NOT the "Internet" China and the Middle East get to use.

The only things really wrong with this country are the lack of foresight, balance and values which have been brought on by the Liberal movement over the last 50 years.

And again, if anyone really does think it's bad now, they really need to look to Europe/South America to gain some perspective at how bad things really can be if we continue down the path of Socialism/Communism such as what Barack Obama and his ilk will try to foster if he gets in.

There's a saying we've all heard - "be careful what you ask for".

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post #35 of 36 Old Jul 1st, 2008, 9:33 pm
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Re: Court Ruling

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Things are NOT bad in this country.
If you think things are terrific now, I suggest you vote for McSame. You will REALLY love things then.
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post #36 of 36 Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 6:02 am
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Court Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalLT
It seems to me, one did ... and was president for eight long years.

It didn't work out very well.
Now, now, Clinton wasn't that bad!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranks
....The "Democrats" would cure everything with a government program that will be so watered down that nobody gets any benefit....
Yeah, finally we have consensus.....If those big government programs just weren't so watered down....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalLT
If you think things are terrific now, I suggest you vote for McSame. You will REALLY love things then.
Oh no F'G way, man! I'm voting for McDifferent! Who says odd-even gas days, 78 degree thermostats, 55 mph speed limits, negotiating with terrorists and 18% interest rates were bad?!

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