Iraq 2003-2008 the cost - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 5:31 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
c00k1e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Powys, , Wales & Cuba
Posts: 1,876
Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

1918 days

4,400 dead troops
30,000 injured troops
84,910 – 92,614 confirmed civilian deaths (OBR estimate the total to be 1,033,000 - which would be bigger than the Rwanda Genocide or Cambodian Killing Fields)
$650bn

Worth it?

In business we have a measurement for this - ROI (return on investment).
So you have to have gained something tangible from your investment or have saved more than you would have normally spent if you had not made the investment.
If we even try to justify an investment with "well if we hadn't......" we had best have some very clear factual statistics - no guess work, to back our statement up with. And you certainly don't guess with the kind of statistics here.

Some interestin reading

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by c00k1e; Jun 20th, 2008 at 5:51 am.
c00k1e is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 6:21 am
Senior Member
 
kevincook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tully (near Syracuse), NY, USA
Posts: 714
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Add to the list.

27,500,000 FREE people.
-1 Dictator

It is now up to the Iraqis to decide how they want to live and run their country.

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Slave Cylinder Procedure->
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kevincook is offline  
post #3 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 6:39 am
Senior Member
 
highroamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Blessington, Co. Wicklow, Ireland
Posts: 429
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

What has any of this to do with BMW's????
highroamer is offline  
 
post #4 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 6:43 am
Senior Member
 
dwsdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Marshall, TX, USA
Posts: 1,751
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by highroamer
What has any of this to do with BMW's????
27M possible BMW sales?????


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'99K1200LT - "Bertha" - gone, but not forgotten!
'86 Concours - "Horse with no name" (under reconstructive surgery)
'06 K1200GT - "Road Rocket"
Marshall, Tx


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dwsdad is offline  
post #5 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 6:52 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 697
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Another example of knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Bill McAllister
St. Louis, MO.
2003 K1200LTE
McAllister is offline  
post #6 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 7:00 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
c00k1e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Powys, , Wales & Cuba
Posts: 1,876
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Can you really claim that these people are free when;

16% of households report that one of the people that used to live in their house is now dead due to the invasion/occupation/liberation
5% report that two members of their houshold have died
1% three members have died.
Almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member
Diyala (42%)
Ninewa (35%)
Of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees.

Would you call that freedom?

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
c00k1e is offline  
post #7 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 7:59 am
Senior Member
 
hoog62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
Posts: 2,862
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by highroamer
What has any of this to do with BMW's????
Nothing. That is why it's in the "Chit Chat" section.

Dave Hoogerland

'08 Triumph Tiger 1050 ABS
'02 K1200LTC "The Silver Snoopy" (gone but not forgotten)
'08 Can-Am Spyder "???"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hoog62 is offline  
post #8 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 9:00 am
Senior Member
 
kevincook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tully (near Syracuse), NY, USA
Posts: 714
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Would you call that freedom?
Unfortunately and tragically the cost of freedom is very high.

Depending on which estimates you use somewhere between 1-3% of Americans lost their lives to win their freedom during the American Revolution.

Another 2% lost their lives during the American Civil War.

According to Iraq Body Count which doesn't look like they are friends with the current administration the total civilian deaths are about 92,000. I'm not sure how many Iraq military deaths there have been.

92,000 is 0.3% of the population, it is terrible but freedom is never without pain.


.

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Slave Cylinder Procedure->
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kevincook is offline  
post #9 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 2:58 pm
Senior Member
 
KMC1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SLC, UT, United States Of America
Posts: 2,337
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister
Another example of knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing.
What a great saying!
+1

R1200GSA Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to Alaska I go!
(Down to ONE BIKE - ARGH!)
KMC1 is offline  
post #10 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 3:18 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Savannah, GA, USA
Posts: 1,893
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Nothing worth having is ever easy or cheap to obtain.
Morley is offline  
post #11 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 4:16 pm
Lifetime Supporter
 
jers99lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Warrenville, IL, USA
Posts: 1,388
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

I work at the Hines VA. Tough seeing our women and men come back physically changed from this ... hard to put into words.
I've also been to Auschwitz. I'd rather not see that allowed again.
One human death isn't a tangible amount for any reason.
There's never any 100% right or wrong. On this earth, the human race isn't even close to "getting it". Sorry to say I still see mankind more in the dark ages than a cohesive entity.
Obviously, we'll sucomb to our demise like a fruitfly experiment before there's world peace.
Just my $0.02

Jer

Jerry Palma
99 K1200LTI Champagne 'Oh, Kay' (dropped: 5)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
97 K1100LT Aspen Silver Night High Line 'Silver Knight'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
85 R80RT 'Lady in Red'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
08 535xi Space Gray metallic
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
09 328i Silver Convertable
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
17 X3 Glacier Silver metallic
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


BMWMOA #157323 / ABC #11368 -- All-in-all a newbie!

I love these bikes regardless of what I've needed to fix on them. I'll: Just Ride 'em!
jers99lt is offline  
post #12 of 17 Old Jun 20th, 2008, 10:57 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Clearwater , FL, USA
Posts: 728
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

[QUOTE=c00k1e]Can you really claim that these people are free when;

16% of households report that one of the people that used to live in their house is now dead due to the invasion/occupation/liberation
5% report that two members of their houshold have died
1% three members have died.
Almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member
Diyala (42%)
Ninewa (35%)
Of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees.

would you call that freedomQUOTE]

In the Iraq model, "freedom" really means is "free market."
Oisin is offline  
post #13 of 17 Old Jun 21st, 2008, 3:05 am
Rider Journeyman
 
BillyOmaha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Granite Bay, CA, USA
Posts: 2,015
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
1918 days

4,400 dead troops
30,000 injured troops
84,910 – 92,614 confirmed civilian deaths (OBR estimate the total to be 1,033,000 - which would be bigger than the Rwanda Genocide or Cambodian Killing Fields)
$650bn

Worth it?

In business we have a measurement for this - ROI (return on investment).
So you have to have gained something tangible from your investment or have saved more than you would have normally spent if you had not made the investment.
If we even try to justify an investment with "well if we hadn't......" we had best have some very clear factual statistics - no guess work, to back our statement up with. And you certainly don't guess with the kind of statistics here.

Some interestin reading
Howdy c00k1e,

I'm pretty sure that trying to measure the validity of waging war by an analysis of ROI would give some objectional results; Had Hitler not declared war on the U.S. should the U.S. have stayed out of the European/African conflict because there wasn't any quantifiable return for the associated cost?

What about the British? Hitler wanted peace with the British after taking the rest of Europe, but they wouldn't go along. They paid a very high price to help liberate their fellow Europeans.

I would rationalize the war in Iraq along these lines; For the better part of the last 100 years the U.S. and Europe have treated the Middle East as a Colonial possession, either literally or, de facto. Not paying attention to them except to ensure the raw materials were kept available to us by passively, or actively, keeping stable and friendly rulers in power. Prior to 9/11, the U.S. wasn't in Afghanistan or Iraq and yet 3,000 people in the U.S. were murdered. Why did this happen?

When one attempts to answer the question as to the root cause of 9/11, the answer, or more accurately the actions required to prevent a future event, becomes apparent.

Regardless of the reasons for going into Iraq we did. Now we have a responsibility, desire even, to leave it in a condition that improves the region in terms of a political system. A country in which Shia, Sunni and Kurds share power and wealth rather that a country with a Sunni dictator that commits genocide by gassing the Kurds and ruthlessly oppresses the Shia.

There are now two democracies in the Middle East, Israel and Iraq.

I could go on about why I believe what we are doing in Iraq is good for the U.S., my children and future generations. However, it would be merely my opinion and I doubt I would change the opinions of those currently in opposition.



Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
RCB AMA, BMWMOA, Booze Brother "in training"
CCR: '04 Breckenridge CO, '05 Jackson Lake Lodge WY, '06 Chateau Elan GA, '08 Midway UT


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
BillyOmaha is offline  
post #14 of 17 Old Jun 21st, 2008, 7:38 am
Senior Member
 
gunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kings Mountain, NC, USA
Posts: 3,089
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Billy:

Well written.

B D R
gunny is offline  
post #15 of 17 Old Jun 21st, 2008, 9:58 pm
Senior Member
 
petepeterson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Jacksonville, NC, USA
Posts: 713
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Thats a kill ratio of 235 to 1 !! I 'll take those odds... Not bad at all..
Cookie, really keep that weird British bias on that side of the pond... We are quit happy killing radical Islamist who are trying to wipe us and YOU off the face of the earth......... Have a peaceful day......

2005 Ocean Blue LT
petepeterson is offline  
post #16 of 17 Old Jun 21st, 2008, 11:39 pm
Senior Member
 
SLTex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sugar Land, TX, USA
Posts: 371
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

ROI. Lets see. The has been so tied up in Iraq and Afganistan, that the gold ole U S of A hasn't been attacked.
I know that you won't see it on the world wide Clinton News Network, but the serge is working. The Sunna, Shia and Kurds are working together to have something worth saving for the future. They are taking a stand against the warlords hoods that have been our biggest problem with IED's.
There have been attacks in London, Spain and Indoniesa and believe me there would be more if the stupid ones weren't blowing them selves up in the Middle East.

"We are the hollow men, the stuffed men, leaning together head piece filled with straw. Alas our dry voices when we whisper together are quite and meaningless. Like wind in dry grass, rats feet over broken glass in our dry c
cellar."T.S. Elliot

What we write here may not mean crap to the ones on control, but freedom of speech and the right to chose are things worth fighting for. U.S. Army 69-72

Ride 'em if you got 'em.
SLTex is offline  
post #17 of 17 Old Jun 22nd, 2008, 12:00 am
Senior Member
 
WildBil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Rolling Meadows, IL, USA
Posts: 912
Re: Iraq 2003-2008 the cost

Iraq 2003 - Terrorist count: 1 (well, Sadam's family and his army could be considered too, I suppose.)

Iraq 2008 - nobody can even guess how many are there, but its a lot more.

And now, no matter when we eventually leave, Iraq is going to be part of Iran.

On the whole, a worse result than Nam. Although I doubt that Iraq will be a tourist destination in 40 years.

"All wars are boyish, and are fought by boys." Herman Melville.

wild bil
07 K1200LT Biarritz Blau
80 Yamaha XS850 Black - retired in 06
WildBil is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US$ 48759.- buys my 2003 LTe paalao K1200LT 16 Apr 27th, 2008 8:08 pm
Yearly RT Maintenance Cost Xavier6162 RT Series 12 Nov 18th, 2007 8:44 pm
Ownership cost for LT 2002 strsout K1200LT 2 Apr 24th, 2007 12:13 pm
CCR 2009 location selection Randy Curve Cowboy Reunion 1 Dec 25th, 2006 7:28 pm
Sobering Graphic Representation from IRAQ WPNorton Chit Chat 34 Feb 19th, 2006 12:20 am

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome