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post #1 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 11:57 am Thread Starter
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Question What the world thinks of the US

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008061...dthinksoftheus

In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...

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post #2 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 12:06 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

And we should care what the world thinks....WHY?

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post #3 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 12:08 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by JCabranes
And we should care what the world thinks....WHY?
Because it is called foreign policies?

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post #4 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 12:19 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

"As full of fun facts as the Pew Report is, however, it has a fairly limited scope. Lots of numbers and percentages are bandied about but with very little historical context or explanation."

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post #5 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 12:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by JCabranes
And we should care what the world thinks....WHY?

Are you French?

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post #6 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 12:49 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWphreak
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008061...dthinksoftheus

In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
Bush squandered our credibility as a nation. He also changed the way the world looks at defence to one of ptevention through attack based on whatever premise one can come up with.
Sadly the two elites (Obama and McCain) who are running for king, will also be war mongers because they are owned by the imperialist corporate machines that rob the rest of the world of their wealth.
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post #7 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 1:03 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWphreak
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008061...dthinksoftheus

In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
Interesting...In my international travels, which I would wager are more extensive than yours, my experience has been quite different. I think your political bias is framing your perception.


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post #8 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 1:09 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWphreak
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008061...dthinksoftheus

In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
Go tell it to paalao, I don't give a shit!

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post #9 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 1:10 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

If it wasn't for this forum, I dread to think what I would think the American people were like.
This forum has shown me that the US has an amazingly warm and generous group of people.
Contact with people of a nation is always better than relying on the media to form your views.
As I have not spoken to Bush I try hard not to judge him too much. But I sure wish he had never got on with Tony B-Lier

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #10 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 1:36 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
If it wasn't for this forum, I dread to think what I would think the American people were like.
This forum has shown me that the US has an amazingly warm and generous group of people.
Contact with people of a nation is always better than relying on the media to form your views.
As I have not spoken to Bush I try hard not to judge him too much. But I sure wish he had never got on with Tony B-Lier
Thanks, c00k1e, FWIW I like the UK and it's people and two of my cousins were born in Cuba (pre Castro). What the heck do you do in Cuba?

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post #11 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 2:02 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWphreak
....it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
A shame we wasted valuable time not being hated right from the beginning. A true badge on honor!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oisin
Bush squandered our credibility as a nation. He also changed the way the world looks at defence to one of prevention through attack based on whatever premise one can come up with....
No more or less than any other recent president....as if, say, Clinton's FAILURE to act didn't bring us just as much discredit?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by norriscooper
Go tell it to paalao, I don't give a shit!
Not that we don't love our socialist/communist friends also....
Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
If it wasn't for this forum, I dread to think what I would think the American people were like.
This forum has shown me that the US has an amazingly warm and generous group of people....
Well Cookie, I hope you find several other places, besides this one, where you can find out about the true American spirit.

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post #12 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 2:03 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWphreak
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008061...dthinksoftheus

In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
It really does not matter who wins the election because the U.S. is a single party elite driven political machine. I love this country, but I detest what it has become. Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves at the actions of the fascists in Washington DC.
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post #13 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 5:03 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by zippy_gg
Because it is called foreign policies?
LOL!
Those "Foreign Policy Skills" sure worked (and are currently working) well for Europe the last 100 years or so!
If it wasn't for the "foreign policy" of the United States, all of Europe would either be goose-stepping their way to work in the morning, and/or drinking vodka with every meal today! And don't ever let anyone EVER forget that "little" fact!

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post #14 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 5:04 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by Oisin
Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves at the actions of the fascists in Washington DC.
True dat!

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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWphreak
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008061...dthinksoftheus

In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
Consider the button PUSHED!

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post #16 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 5:25 pm
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What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
....If it wasn't for the "foreign policy" of the United States, all of Europe would either be goose-stepping their way to work in the morning, and/or drinking vodka with every meal today!....
Now, KMC, when you say "goose-stepping" and/or "drinking vodka," do you mean that in a bad way?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DakotaDude
I wouldn't be so quick to paint the founding fathers with a saintly brush; they were every bit as self-serving (if not more) as any contemporary politician/leader....
Now, if they had just thought of socialist security, medicare and medicaid. Then, they would have been the true slave masters!
Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Don't that just show the different ways history is taught.
Over here the 'yanks' joined in when it was obvious who was winning - AND they charged us for the privilege of being on the winning side. Oh, and aparently we saved your arses against the Japs....
And thank God (oh shit, used evil "G" word) THEY developed and dropped the atomic bomb, also!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #17 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 5:40 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oisin
It really does not matter who wins the election because the U.S. is a single party elite driven political machine. I love this country, but I detest what it has become. Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves at the actions of the fascists in Washington DC.
I wouldn't be so quick to paint the founding fathers with a saintly brush; they were every bit as self-serving (if not more) as any contemporary politician/leader.

The basic tenets of this country have not changed, they have unfortunately been convoluted by elected officials that speak a completely different dialogue after they are elected compared to what they espouse prior to being elected. I place the blame for this country's current condition to the largely ignorant population who elects our "leaders". Vote for the individual who shows the most promise/ability to reshape the USA into what you think it should be. If you are a woman, do not vote for Hillary because she is a woman. If you are black, do not vote for Obama because he has a black lineage, and if you are a Viet Nam vet, do not vote for McCain because he was a Viet Nam POW.

DO VOTE for the best person for the job based on their abilities and qualifications.

As far as the Brits hating us, I think you are greatly mistaken. The Brits are one of the few countries who have stood by the USA through thick and thin. I LIKE the Brits and have great respect for them.

To offer something contrary to your opinion of world opinion, I travelled to Italy a little over one year ago and found much support for the USA from the people we spoke with. In the city of Todi, in the Umbria region, a granite-carved memorial to the victims of the 9/11 attacks is proudly displayed in the town Piazza.

I would hate to see what this world would look like if the USA took the stance of Germany, France, Spain, etc. In today's world, there is no such thing as live and let live. Radicals and extremists throughout certain regions of the world have nothing to lose from their actions and, consequently, become very dangerous. We would be inviting total chaos to sit idly by and do nothing to prevent the progression of anarchy.

My .$02.
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post #18 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 6:15 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Now, KMC, when you say "goose-stepping" and/or "drinking vodka," do you mean that in a bad way?!
I guess it really depends on the Vodka.....

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post #19 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 6:28 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by norriscooper
Thanks, c00k1e, FWIW I like the UK and it's people and two of my cousins were born in Cuba (pre Castro). What the heck do you do in Cuba?
I have been very fortunate to be able to play music with some of the very best musicians of our age. Since the Ry Cooder film with the Buena Vista Social Club I was hooked on Cuban music. I dreamed of playing in Cuba with the old guys who rock more then men a quater of their age.
I first jamed with bands there in 1999 and although never played with members of the orriginal band, have played with friends and relations of them, heard drunken stories about them and their antics and have been honered to have been invited back for festivals and music get togethers by members of bands to play with them.
Their music is never political, it is happy, enthusiastic beat intensive impro/trad mix of the best of africa and spain.
Although there is great distrust of US policiy towards them, they welcome US citizens with open arms (there are ways of visiting btw and I have met many who have gone via Canada to play there)
I so hope the US continues to alow Cuba to make there own future and it never becomes some sort of collage frat part island

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #20 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 6:31 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by c00k1e
I have been very fortunate to be able to play music with some of the very best musicians of our age. Since the Ry Cooder film with the Buena Vista Social Club I was hooked on Cuban music. I dreamed of playing in Cuba with the old guys who rock more then men a quater of their age.
I first jamed with bands there in 1999 and although never played with members of the orriginal band, have played with friends and relations of them, heard drunken stories about them and their antics and have been honered to have been invited back for festivals and music get togethers by members of bands to play with them.
Their music is never political, it is happy, enthusiastic beat intensive impro/trad mix of the best of africa and spain.
Although there is great distrust of US policiy towards them, they welcome US citizens with open arms (there are ways of visiting btw and I have met many who have gone via Canada to play there)
I so hope the US continues to alow Cuba to make there own future and it never becomes some sort of collage frat part island
I have a friend who periodically makes the trip to Cuba, via Mexico (the only "legal" way Americans can make the trip). Boy, does he have some GREAT stories every time he comes back ... sounds like a fun place to vacation.
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post #21 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 6:38 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by KMC1
LOL!
Those "Foreign Policy Skills" sure worked (and are currently working) well for Europe the last 100 years or so!
If it wasn't for the "foreign policy" of the United States, all of Europe would either be goose-stepping their way to work in the morning, and/or drinking vodka with every meal today! And don't ever let anyone EVER forget that "little" fact!
Don't that just show the different ways history is taught.
Over here the 'yanks' joined in when it was obvious who was winning - AND they charged us for the privalege of being on the winning side. Oh, and aparently we saved your arses against the Japs.

Don't shoot the mesenger btw

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post #22 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 6:39 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by CalLT
I have a friend who periodically makes the trip to Cuba, via Mexico (the only "legal" way Americans can make the trip). Boy, does he have some GREAT stories every time he comes back ... sounds like a fun place to vacation.
Don't know how legal it is, but the guy I meet up with the most comes via Canada

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #23 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 8:53 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Don't that just show the different ways history is taught.
Over here the 'yanks' joined in when it was obvious who was winning - AND they charged us for the privalege of being on the winning side. Oh, and aparently we saved your arses against the Japs.

Don't shoot the mesenger btw
I grew up in Europe and agree that the story is reversed in the history books. I have studied a broad range of social studies texts (K-12) from 1970 to present. What is put in and what is left out is highly selective in every country. At least in other countries where I have lived we knew the history books were government propaganda.
Sadly most Americans believe what their government controlled educational system tells them. Few if any will seek out other perspectives. Hence , the obedient, passive electorate willing to accept the corporate sponsored elites.
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post #24 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 9:15 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Don't that just show the different ways history is taught.
Over here the 'yanks' joined in when it was obvious who was winning - AND they charged us for the privalege of being on the winning side. Oh, and aparently we saved your arses against the Japs.

Don't shoot the mesenger btw
Yeah, you hear a lot from the Swedes/Nordes and the Brits too for that matter about stuff like that. It really does all depend on which country you're "educated" (indoctrinated?) in as to what version you're going to get.
However, I would like to point out just a couple things to consider:
1) Lend-Lease
2) Liberty Ships
3) Sherman Tank
4) Browning BAR, M1 Garand
5) B17, B29, B25
6) P51, P38, P40, P47, F6F, F4U
7) Okinawa, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Midway, D-Day, Battle Of The Bulge, Battle of Normandy....
8) Atom Bomb
9) Marshall Plan
10) Europe and the U.K. still exist......

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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Although there is great distrust of US policiy towards them, they welcome US citizens with open arms (there are ways of visiting btw and I have met many who have gone via Canada to play there)
I so hope the US continues to alow Cuba to make there own future and it never becomes some sort of collage frat part island
My folks use to vacation there in the 50's. My aunt's husband worked for a for a sugar company. They said it was beautiful, I was also run by the Mafia.

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post #26 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 9:42 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
LOL!
Those "Foreign Policy Skills" sure worked (and are currently working) well for Europe the last 100 years or so!
If it wasn't for the "foreign policy" of the United States, all of Europe would either be goose-stepping their way to work in the morning, and/or drinking vodka with every meal today! And don't ever let anyone EVER forget that "little" fact!
Again, the perfect example of someone who never travelled to the places he critics so easily. Live a little, then write about it!

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post #27 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 9:44 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by KMC1
7) Okinawa, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Midway, D-Day, Battle Of The Bulge, Battle of Normandy....
My Dad got a paid vacation to Wales, France, and Belgum. He was boots on the ground Omaha Beach, Dog Red, June 6, 1944. No one asked to see his passport!
Now he had some stories!

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post #28 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 9:55 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by zippy_gg
Because it is called foreign policies?
Screw that. Some Norwegian doesn't like my President or his policies (you know who I'm talking about) and I should care. Don't think so. We make (or should make) our foreign policy decisions based on what is best for the American people and if the rest of the world has a problem with it... well that's just tough.

And for the record... I've lived in foreign countries and traveled through Europe. Call me an ugly American, but I've never found anywhere better than my country... different... not better. Perhaps that's why so many people want to come here and you don't see too many Americans looking to escape to France for a better life.

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post #29 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 9:56 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by norriscooper
Go tell it to paalao, I don't give a shit!
+1

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post #30 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 10:17 pm
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Unhappy Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Yeah, you hear a lot from the Swedes/Nordes and the Brits too for that matter about stuff like that. It really does all depend on which country you're "educated" (indoctrinated?) in as to what version you're going to get.
However, I would like to point out just a couple things to consider:
1) Lend-Lease
2) Liberty Ships
3) Sherman Tank
4) Browning BAR, M1 Garand
5) B17, B29, B25
6) P51, P38, P40, P47, F6F, F4U
7) Okinawa, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Midway, D-Day, Battle Of The Bulge, Battle of Normandy....
8) Atom Bomb
9) Marshall Plan
10) Europe and the U.K. still exist......
11) 420,000 dead US Soldiers, PRICELESS

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post #31 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 10:29 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by JCabranes
Screw that. Some Norwegian doesn't like my President or his policies (you know who I'm talking about) and I should care. Don't think so. We make (or should make) our foreign policy decisions based on what is best for the American people and if the rest of the world has a problem with it... well that's just tough.

And for the record... I've lived in foreign countries and traveled through Europe. Call me an ugly American, but I've never found anywhere better than my country... different... not better. Perhaps that's why so many people want to come here and you don't see too many Americans looking to escape to France for a better life.
Foreign policies forge new alliances. New alliances create new treaties. From new treaties new deals are made. This is how food is sold and bough as well as oil, steel, and manufactured products. Simple really...
And there is nothing wrong with the fact that you love your country, quite contrary.

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post #32 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 11:13 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by zippy_gg
Foreign policies forge new alliances. New alliances create new treaties. From new treaties new deals are made. This is how food is sold and bough as well as oil, steel, and manufactured products. Simple really...
And there is nothing wrong with the fact that you love your country, quite contrary.
You miss my point. US foreign policy must benefit the American people. Some people believe (clearly I'm not one of them) that we need to take into consideration the interests and wishes of other countries before we act. I believe that when it is in our interest to act, we act and if others have a problem with what we decide to do that's just too bad. Also, there are those that will hate us for any reason real or trumped up... like this Bush Derangement Syndrome that some people have. So anything we do will lead to criticism.

As for treaties, I'm not an isolationist but I will point out the following. 1) The US is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world and the only reason we need to import oil is because we can't seem to come up with a coherent energy policy; 2) We EXPORT food, nobody in this country goes hungry because the food is not available - unaffordable maybe but not unavailable; 3) One upon a time we manufactured more steel than any country in the world... until we allowed other countries to undermine our steel industry (an example perhaps of bad foreign policy) and our textiles, furniture and other manufacturing industries have been ravaged by cheaper imports (another example of bad foreign policy and general economics that cannot be blamed on Bush). I am not saying that we don't need the rest of the world... I am saying that when our government makes a decision and acts in our interest, I'm not too concerned if Europe is on board on not.

One last thing. The 20th century has been called the American Century for reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread. We became a Superpower and in becoming a Superpower we got (and still get so far in the 21st century) to call the shots. China is on a path to become a Superpower and maybe someday, hopefully not in my lifetime, they will call the shots and we will have to accept the consequences of their actions. It's called power politics and its been around since before Britannia ruled the waves.

End of rant... you may now proceed to tell me how wrong I am.

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post #33 of 116 Old Jun 17th, 2008, 11:31 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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DO VOTE for the best person for the job based on their abilities and qualifications.
But there is not an ounce of difference between the candidates and neither has the peoples interest in mind then what's the point?
Which fascist corporate sponsored King (McCain , or Obama) do you want to make your decisions for you ? Of course oil King George has set a wonderful precedent for them to follow.
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post #34 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 12:03 am
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Thumbs up Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Originally Posted by JCabranes
You miss my point. US foreign policy must benefit the American people. Some people believe (clearly I'm not one of them) that we need to take into consideration the interests and wishes of other countries before we act. I believe that when it is in our interest to act, we act and if others have a problem with what we decide to do that's just too bad. Also, there are those that will hate us for any reason real or trumped up... like this Bush Derangement Syndrome that some people have. So anything we do will lead to criticism.

As for treaties, I'm not an isolationist but I will point out the following. 1) The US is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world and the only reason we need to import oil is because we can't seem to come up with a coherent energy policy; 2) We EXPORT food, nobody in this country goes hungry because the food is not available - unaffordable maybe but not unavailable; 3) One upon a time we manufactured more steel than any country in the world... until we allowed other countries to undermine our steel industry (an example perhaps of bad foreign policy) and our textiles, furniture and other manufacturing industries have been ravaged by cheaper imports (another example of bad foreign policy and general economics that cannot be blamed on Bush). I am not saying that we don't need the rest of the world... I am saying that when our government makes a decision and acts in our interest, I'm not too concerned if Europe is on board on not.

One last thing. The 20th century has been called the American Century for reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread. We became a Superpower and in becoming a Superpower we got (and still get so far in the 21st century) to call the shots. China is on a path to become a Superpower and maybe someday, hopefully not in my lifetime, they will call the shots and we will have to accept the consequences of their actions. It's called power politics and its been around since before Britannia ruled the waves.

End of rant... you may now proceed to tell me how wrong I am.
+1, well stated!

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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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We make (or should make) our foreign policy decisions based on what is best for the American people . . .
Yes, we should, but we don't. Foreign policy is simply based on what's in the best interests of those who make the policies, or more realistically those who have bought and paid for those who make the policies. The rest of us simply try to live our lives the best we can under circumstances that we can't control, and to make smart choices on the things that we have some control over.

But simply wrapping yourself in the flag and screaming "screw the rest of the world" is not the actions of a sane man, elected or not.

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post #36 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 2:02 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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In my extensive international travels, it is clear that after the initial Bush election folks didn't like Bush, but felt he "stole" the election so they did not blame the American people. After Bush election #2, they pretty much hated Bush and the American people...
That election has little to do with it, it is a generational thing. When I was stationed in W. Germany I got to travel ALL around Europe and meet some very good people (and some not so good). The older generation (I was 18-20 while over there), in the 30+ age range generally liked Americans. The ones that fought in WWII loved us. The younger generations hated the Americans and tried to cause problems whenever they could.
In Germany at my base the "youngers" were going to stage an anti-American demonstration and do the whole "yankee go home" thing. As they marched up towards the base, they were met by their parents & grand parents and got the holy hell beaten out of them.
Its the younger generations that never liked Americans that have gotten older and are in positions of authority now and are still trying to make trouble whenever thay can.
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post #37 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 4:25 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Yes, we should, but we don't. Foreign policy is simply based on what's in the best interests of those who make the policies, or more realistically those who have bought and paid for those who make the policies. The rest of us simply try to live our lives the best we can under circumstances that we can't control, and to make smart choices on the things that we have some control over.

But simply wrapping yourself in the flag and screaming "screw the rest of the world" is not the actions of a sane man, elected or not.
This is the type of thing our media points towards. When you see stories like this you really wonder how deep the corruption goes.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #38 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 4:48 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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My folks use to vacation there in the 50's. My aunt's husband worked for a for a sugar company. They said it was beautiful, I was also run by the Mafia.
Oh it is beautiful alright. Hense the lack of political angst I guess. I mean, if you are healthy, happy and living in paradise, who cares what type of government you have?
The old boys I play with are the oldest musicians I have ever met. In the UK they would be in old peoples homes by now with arthritis, there they are rockin', drinking, picking up women (they are randy ol' sods!), what a life!
In the '50s the Batista regime was horrendous. He welcomed mafia $ investments in the island alright.
In 2005 I witnessed an amazing event. Cuban wages were doubled! Imagine that, double your wages overnight. In any other country this would mean a massive inflation jump - not in Cuba, every item on the shop shelves was the same price the following week - everyone just got twice as wealthy. Sure 2x next to nothing seems next to nothing. But when a beer is 10cents, you don't worry much - you just have another party to try to outdo every party that came before it.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #39 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 6:37 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Again, the perfect example of someone who never travelled to the places he critics so easily. Live a little, then write about it!
Um.....
Don't you usually like to know what you're talking about BEFORE you say something...
Typical European arrogance to think that since I'm an American I don't own a passport and have never left my hometown......and you need to travel to know that is a true statement......

It may come as a surprise, but one can travel to and spend time in, Europe, and come back VERY proud and VERY thankful to live here......

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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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11) 420,000 dead US Soldiers, PRICELESS
+1 !!!

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post #41 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 9:33 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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But simply wrapping yourself in the flag and screaming "screw the rest of the world" is not the actions of a sane man, elected or not.
We are clearly not going to agree. This Administration has clearly decided that US interests come first, and as is quite clear I have no problem with that.

BTW, sanity is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think that the "He was selected not elected" and "He's not my President" crowd lost their mind long ago.

WARNING - RANT BEGINING

The real problem with this particular discussion is that we, Americans, have lost our ability to politely disagree. Talk politics and the conversation degenerates very quickly into name calling... neo-cons v. left-wing moonbats. Everyone thinks that their view of the way things should be is 100% correct and generally don't tolerate dissent. That isn't the way to have a reasonable discussion. It's bad enough that Americans can't talk to each other on these topics but then we have the usual suspects overseas giving us their unsolicited and generally unwelcome opinion as to our President, Government and Foreign Policy. Opinions that frankly are suspect given the European propensity for devastating their continent periodically. Oh, no thank you necessary btw for America's foreign policy practically rebuilding Europe after WWII. No thanks necessary for the massive amount of money we spent to keep troops in Europe to keep the Russian bear at bay which allowed Europe to spend less money on their defense and instead invest in their economies.

Lastly, when the shoe was on the other foot and the great powers of Europe mattered they didn't care if anyone was on board with their foreign policy. Isn't it interesting that now that Europe is less politically relevant than it was just 100 years ago, NOW we need to consult and get a consensus. Apparently our President doesn't completely agree, and while I don't support all of his decisions, I'm comfortable with this one.

ALL CLEAR - END OF RANT

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post #42 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 9:54 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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..... when the shoe was on the other foot and the great powers of Europe mattered they didn't care if anyone was on board with their foreign policy. Isn't it interesting that now that Europe is less politically relevant than it was just 100 years ago, NOW we need to consult and get a consensus. Apparently our President doesn't completely agree, and while I don't support all of his decisions, I'm comfortable with this one.

ALL CLEAR - END OF RANT
Love ya style.
Sure, we Europeans had our (long) turn at messing with the world, we learnt our lesson and grew up a bit. Well so I thought, till someone encouraged them to get jiggy with countries that had nothing to do with us all over again.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #43 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 10:25 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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post #44 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 10:30 am
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Love ya style.
Sure, we Europeans had our (long) turn at messing with the world, we learnt our lesson and grew up a bit. Well so I thought, till someone encouraged them to get jiggy with countries that had nothing to do with us all over again.
I'm not sure I agree with either part of your statement.

1) That Europe has learned its lesson and grown up - It is human nature that if a person has power they generally use it. Same with countries. The European powers are a shadow of what they were and for them the game has changed. Since they can no longer project overwhelming power the game is now to influence and/or control those who can. Right now that is mainly one country... the US.

2) Not sure how much encouragement was necessary given that those countries do have plenty to do with you. First, and most obvious, is the oil. Second, look at the problems that radical Islam is causing in Europe. You can claim that the problems with radical Islam are a product of the present conflict. My view is that the problem has existed and has been building for some time and that the present conflict has brought those problems out in the open.

As to my style - I am what I am and I'm comfortable with it.

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post #45 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 1:13 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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This is the type of thing our media points towards. When you see stories like thisyou really wonder how deep the corruption goes.
I really don't want to get in the middle of this but the opening paragraph in the article:
"A BBC investigation estimates that around $23bn (11.75bn) may have been lost, stolen or just not properly accounted for in Iraq."

I am not sure what this means. The money MAY be missing and if it is it MAY have been "lost, stolen or just not properly accounted for". Then it implies that the US government is somehow complicit since there is a "US gagging order is preventing discussion of the allegations". While there may be a gag order in effect, we really do not know why.

Then it goes on to say "To date, no major US contractor faces trial for fraud or mismanagement in Iraq". This statement, if true, only says no one has found legal grounds to bring such an action. Once again the inference is made that since Halliburton got the bid and it is a company that the VP used to "run" this company, there must be fraud. Is Halliburton truly the only company that "got to bid", or is it the only company capable of tackling the job. I really don't know and this article, like most others, fails to clarify that question. Certainly, I think there could be fraud and excess, but this article is short on real data to back this up - only siting the usual innuendo and allegations made by people on the opposite side of a political fence.

Then the article goes on to say: "He [Hazem Shalaan] and his associates siphoned an estimated $1.2bn out of the ministry". This man was charged and convicted of fraud, but fled. re we to believe this fraud somehow goes back to Bush or US policies?

This article is all over the map as far as allegations, but is woefully short on any hard data as to what money is missing and who may be responsible other than a corrupt Iraqi minister and "his associates".

Now that I have read the article, I may still wonder how deep the corruption goes, but have no better handle on it than before I read the article. The unfortunate reality is that we are constantly bombarded by spin and innuendo, supporting one political agenda or another, but very little in supportable facts.

Personally, I think all government officials, regardless of their country or their political allegiance are likely to be corrupted by the process. I also think most media reports, regardless of the country of origin, are done with a specific agenda at their core and rarely just report facts without "spin". Further, I believe governments and media organs of any country, rarely represent what the majority of the people in those countries think or feel.

"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong", Dennis Miller

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post #46 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 1:20 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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I'm not sure I agree with either part of your statement.

1) That Europe has learned its lesson and grown up - It is human nature that if a person has power they generally use it. Same with countries. The European powers are a shadow of what they were and for them the game has changed. Since they can no longer project overwhelming power the game is now to influence and/or control those who can. Right now that is mainly one country... the US.

2) Not sure how much encouragement was necessary given that those countries do have plenty to do with you. First, and most obvious, is the oil. Second, look at the problems that radical Islam is causing in Europe. You can claim that the problems with radical Islam are a product of the present conflict. My view is that the problem has existed and has been building for some time and that the present conflict has brought those problems out in the open.

As to my style - I am what I am and I'm comfortable with it.
I am being serious, I like people who speak their minds.
As to power - it is in the eye of the beholder - you can never get anyone to respect you just 'cos you hold a gun to their head.
As to Europes problem with radical Islamism - the only problem I see is our civil liberties being erroded due to polititians over reacting. I will soon be able to be locked up for 48 days with no one knowing where I am and not being told what I am being held for. If radical islamismists wanted to take my liberties away - wow the UK government must be working for them!
How many people have been killed by terrorists in the last 50 years? Not as many as get killed every year on our roads! Road traffic injuries kill as many as 350 people per day, or over 127,000 every year in the WHO European Region. It is as if a catastrophic event killed the population of a middle-sized city each year. At least 2.4 million people are injured and disabled in road traffic crashes annually. Now that IS a problem.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #47 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 1:29 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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How many people have been killed by terrorists in the last 50 years? Not as many as get killed every year on our roads! Road traffic injuries kill as many as 350 people per day, or over 127,000 every year in the WHO European Region. It is as if a catastrophic event killed the population of a middle-sized city each year. At least 2.4 million people are injured and disabled in road traffic crashes annually. Now that IS a problem.
I agree that road deaths are a real problem, but I think we would both agree that a vast majority are the result of accident, not as a result of planning a murder to satisfy a political objective.

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post #48 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 1:30 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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Personally, I think all government officials, regardless of their country or their political allegiance are likely to be corrupted by the process. I also think most media reports, regardless of the country of origin, are done with a specific agenda at their core and rarely just report facts without "spin". Further, I believe governments and media organs of any country, rarely represent what the majority of the people in those countries think or feel.

"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong", Dennis Miller
100% with you on that. The article did go with a TV show that went into far more details of course, but the slant was quite clear.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #49 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 2:29 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

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I agree that road deaths are a real problem, but I think we would both agree that a vast majority are the result of accident, not as a result of planning a murder to satisfy a political objective.
That is a motive and consequence discussion. I am talking of consequence and effect.
I don't worry, on my way to work, that a stupid religious nutter may kill me. I am worried that a stupid drunk nutter may kill me.
It also has a bearing on how much influence I, and the people I know, can have on the threat. As I have said, I do not believe that you can change someones beliefs by holding a gun to their head. You can only change beliefs by discussion and argument. Maajid Nawaz is a real exponent of this method. A former extreamist Islamist, sentenced to five years in an Egyptian prison for his involvement in a group which is banned in that country. He turned his back on radical Islam after a fellow prisoner proved to him that what his group was doing was not right. He then took the whole organisation with him after much debate.
He now runs an organisation that pinpoints other extremist groups to convert them away from violence.
Kill a Muslim and you have just alienated his WHOLE extended family. They will then be ripe for extreamist conversion. You won't win that way.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #50 of 116 Old Jun 18th, 2008, 5:21 pm
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Re: What the world thinks of the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oisin
Bush squandered our credibility as a nation. He also changed the way the world looks at defence to one of ptevention through attack based on whatever premise one can come up with.
Sadly the two elites (Obama and McCain) who are running for king, will also be war mongers because they are owned by the imperialist corporate machines that rob the rest of the world of their wealth.
Clinton squandered our credibility!

It doesn't matter if he was a Democrat or Republican, he was an outright liar and adulterer. The question that I have is this, does anybody think that there willl ever be a President that EVERYONE likes? I didn't think so.

As far as the two candidates......you better be praying the we elect the better of the two men.

Brett
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