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post #1 of 7 Old Feb 27th, 2008, 2:58 pm Thread Starter
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Metallurgy help

Hi all,
Since there appears to be a lot of engineering type people on this forum here goes.
I am trying to find information 401C Aluminum. Have a vendor that wants to use this in place of 6061-T6511. I have performed several searches with little success. Found a site with a limited chemical composition analysis. I think this is being sourced from Europe but not sure.

Per vendor:
Main difference appears to be more silica which is supposed to aide in machining. In theory the silica causes the chips to break up and the material is less gummy.

Info I am seaking is:

Can this material be Clear Coat Anodized?

Can it be acid etched before anodizing?

Will this material shed particles like cast iron when their is fluid movement?

Any info will be appreciated

TIA

Roy

Roy Gregersen

Ride Slow, Ride Fast, Always Ride Safe
85 K100RT sold
02 LTC DOA 9/21/14
12 R1200RT

Last edited by Steve_R; Feb 27th, 2008 at 3:16 pm.
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post #2 of 7 Old Feb 27th, 2008, 8:43 pm
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Re: Metallurgy help

Roy,

As a metallurgist, I'll start with the metallurgist's standard answer, "It Depends." Can you tell us your customer's application? What are the requirements? Do you need cast, forged, or extruded machining stock?

This looks to be a proprietary Al alloy. Here's the Kaiser datasheet for 401-C aluminum:

http://www.kaiseraluminum.com/wp-con...alloy-401c.pdf

The chemistry difference is huge, 6061 has a Silicon content of 0.40-0.80 wt% Si, versus 5.5-8.0 wt% Si in the 401-C. This may also impact corrosion properties in the final product. I would agree with the vendor that it would leave silica precipates (low strength, brittle particles) that will function as chip breakers, similar to the effect that Lead has in a free-machining steel.

Compared to 6061-T6 it has slightly higher tensile strength, reduced ductility The comparative properties listed (anodizing response, etc...) don't tell you what the alloy is being compared to.

The data sheet says it can be anodized, and etching prior to anodizing is part of the process.

For the 6061-T6411: A T6511 heat treat condition is Solution Treated and Artificially Aged, along with mechanically stress relieved by stretching ~3%.

Aluminum alloys shouldn't shed particles into moving fluid like cast iron (in cast iron, this would be graphite and very small particle of iron).

When you print the 401-C and 6061 datasheets, the 401-C doesn't have anywhere near the data available that the 6061 does. I'm not saying that the 401-C is bad, just that the vendor needs to provide you the data that would show your customer that 401-C will out perform 6061-T6511 in the final application. Until then, use what your customer has specified.

Tim Barstow

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post #3 of 7 Old Feb 28th, 2008, 6:57 am Thread Starter
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Re: Matallurgy help

Tim,
thanks for the info.

Roy

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post #4 of 7 Old Feb 28th, 2008, 2:07 pm
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Re: Metallurgy help

I am a metallurgist as well (besides being an electrical engineer) and I agree with Tim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tbarstow
Roy,

As a metallurgist, I'll start with the metallurgist's standard answer, "It Depends." Can you tell us your customer's application? What are the requirements? Do you need cast, forged, or extruded machining stock?

This looks to be a proprietary Al alloy. Here's the Kaiser datasheet for 401-C aluminum:

http://www.kaiseraluminum.com/wp-con...alloy-401c.pdf

The chemistry difference is huge, 6061 has a Silicon content of 0.40-0.80 wt% Si, versus 5.5-8.0 wt% Si in the 401-C. This may also impact corrosion properties in the final product. I would agree with the vendor that it would leave silica precipates (low strength, brittle particles) that will function as chip breakers, similar to the effect that Lead has in a free-machining steel.

Compared to 6061-T6 it has slightly higher tensile strength, reduced ductility The comparative properties listed (anodizing response, etc...) don't tell you what the alloy is being compared to.

The data sheet says it can be anodized, and etching prior to anodizing is part of the process.

For the 6061-T6411: A T6511 heat treat condition is Solution Treated and Artificially Aged, along with mechanically stress relieved by stretching ~3%.

Aluminum alloys shouldn't shed particles into moving fluid like cast iron (in cast iron, this would be graphite and very small particle of iron).

When you print the 401-C and 6061 datasheets, the 401-C doesn't have anywhere near the data available that the 6061 does. I'm not saying that the 401-C is bad, just that the vendor needs to provide you the data that would show your customer that 401-C will out perform 6061-T6511 in the final application. Until then, use what your customer has specified.

Matt Kas

13 Triumph Trophy SE Lunar Silver
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Laguna Niguel, Southern California (South Orange County)
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post #5 of 7 Old Feb 28th, 2008, 3:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Matallurgy help

Application is for a Hydraulic manifold with two plungers that are manual operated used for an emergency. Basically a hydraulic jack.
These plungers stroke 3 5/8" and velocity depends on the operator.

Bores are 1/2" and 5/8" diameter

My concerns are:
1) What happens when anodized? I have talked to an Anodizer and they have never run this product. They said you would have to a "ARP Etch" process Vs an acid etch for 6061. Am attempting to research the difference.

2) Will the "ARP Etch" help clean the surface and remove any fine particles? I.e. the silica or will these become Anodized silica particles AKA sand paper / contaminate?

3) Will the surface also tend to sluff over time due the high silica content. I.e. cast Vs extruded.

We have 30 + years of experience with 6061-T6511.

I am telling management no, but all they see is $$$$

Roy

Roy Gregersen

Ride Slow, Ride Fast, Always Ride Safe
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post #6 of 7 Old Feb 28th, 2008, 3:54 pm
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Re: Metallurgy help

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbarstow
Roy,

As a metallurgist, I'll start with the metallurgist's standard answer, "It Depends." Can you tell us your customer's application? What are the requirements? Do you need cast, forged, or extruded machining stock?

This looks to be a proprietary Al alloy. Here's the Kaiser datasheet for 401-C aluminum:

http://www.kaiseraluminum.com/wp-con...alloy-401c.pdf

The chemistry difference is huge, 6061 has a Silicon content of 0.40-0.80 wt% Si, versus 5.5-8.0 wt% Si in the 401-C. This may also impact corrosion properties in the final product. I would agree with the vendor that it would leave silica precipates (low strength, brittle particles) that will function as chip breakers, similar to the effect that Lead has in a free-machining steel.

Compared to 6061-T6 it has slightly higher tensile strength, reduced ductility The comparative properties listed (anodizing response, etc...) don't tell you what the alloy is being compared to.

The data sheet says it can be anodized, and etching prior to anodizing is part of the process.

For the 6061-T6411: A T6511 heat treat condition is Solution Treated and Artificially Aged, along with mechanically stress relieved by stretching ~3%.

Aluminum alloys shouldn't shed particles into moving fluid like cast iron (in cast iron, this would be graphite and very small particle of iron).

When you print the 401-C and 6061 datasheets, the 401-C doesn't have anywhere near the data available that the 6061 does. I'm not saying that the 401-C is bad, just that the vendor needs to provide you the data that would show your customer that 401-C will out perform 6061-T6511 in the final application. Until then, use what your customer has specified.

Uhhh...that's exactly what I was gonna say.

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
Too many others to list...


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post #7 of 7 Old Mar 4th, 2008, 7:28 am Thread Starter
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Re: Metallurgy help

Tim, Matt Jack,
just a little more info on the 401C.

We received some samples of this product and here are the initial findings.

1) Product has a brown tint when clear coat anodized.
2) Product shows excessive debris, particles rubbing off. These particles range in size from .0002 - .005 as close as we can measure them anyhow with a Micro-Vu optical comparator.. Very difficult to tell visually if these are sand particles or fine aluminum chips.
3) Surface finish appears to be more porous than 6061. We don't have the ability to measure this just an observation under a microscope.

I would not recommend this material for any Hydraulic use at this time. We are still trying to get the vendor and Anodizer to tell us what process they used for cleaning / etching prior to Anodizing.

Roy Gregersen

Ride Slow, Ride Fast, Always Ride Safe
85 K100RT sold
02 LTC DOA 9/21/14
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