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post #1 of 58 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 6:13 pm Thread Starter
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Talking "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

I had a lovely visit from my parents this weekend. We usually have a great time, this one, no exception

My Dad is a strong left leaning Liberal and we usually end up in a debate at some point in the evening, particularly after some "adult-beverages"

Anyway, as usual, we ended up in the political arena late Saturday night and were discussing the war. Of course, we must have an "organized retreat" from Iraq and Afghanistan, but, itís "OK" that we are in Europe and Japan 60 years later

Well he informed me that "Everyone" wants us out of Iraq. I questioned how he knew this fact. Well he told me he still protests in the town common (in my hometown) every weekend with his cronies and there are many fewer drivers "Giving Me the Finger"

I'll tell you, I never wanted to be wearing a pair of Depends, but, I came real close as I could barely contain myself.

We finished our discussions; I gave him my wife's copy of Obama's books (I won't need them) and discussed less controversial subjects.

Now That's A BAROMETER of US sentiment

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post #2 of 58 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 6:17 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by joegottberg
....My Dad is a strong left leaning Liberal and we usually end up in a debate at some point in the evening, particularly after some "adult-beverages"....
Joe, I love all my little Commy buddies--including my own parents!

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post #3 of 58 Old Feb 19th, 2008, 9:46 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by joegottberg
Of course, we must have an "organized retreat" from Iraq and Afghanistan, but, itís "OK" that we are in Europe and Japan 60 years later
It's absolutely not okay that we're in Europe and Japan, or all the other countries. The military should be for defense, and only the US seems to require bases all over the world to achieve that. It's a waste of taxpayer money, and gives people a reason to attack us.

I guess I'm not invited the next time your parent's visit.

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post #4 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 3:34 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
Well he informed me that "Everyone" wants us out of Iraq. "
You have a wise Father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
It's absolutely not okay that we're in Europe and Japan, or all the other countries. The military should be for defense, and only the US seems to require bases all over the world to achieve that. It's a waste of taxpayer money, and gives people a reason to attack us.
And you, Mr Bob, are a wise man as well

And another wise man - Ron Jacobs

"Occupation is not just a military action. It is a psychological and social phenomenon, too. Occupation is one of the first steps towards colonization. In the case of the US and Iraq in 2003, our country is the colonizer whether we like it or not. Now, the colonial mindset does not only affect the colonized, it also affects the colonizer. As surely as there are US servicewomen and men occupying Baghdad, our psyche is occupied by a mindset that leads us to question the ability of Iraqis to govern themselves and rebuild their country without US interference. Why? Because we are trained to think that only the US (and maybe some of its allies) know what a good government is. Many of us think this even if we don't like our government.

It doesn't matter if we think the US should run Iraq or if we think the UN should. It doesn't matter whether we think the US liberated the Iraqi people or just took over the place for their oil. The very fact that we question the Iraqis' ability to take care of themselves shows how our consciousness is tainted with the stain of the occupier.

As long as the United States is in Iraq and the Middle East, we are occupiers and colonizers.

So, can the Iraqis rebuild their own country?

Of course, the Iraqis can rebuild their own country.

Furthermore, the only way the Iraqi people will be able to really choose their own destiny is by getting the US masters of war out of their country. Likewise, the only way we in the United States will ever be able to truly choose our own destiny is by getting the masters of war out of our government. In other words, the first step towards real democracy in the USA is also the first step towards democracy in Iraq-and that first step is getting the US out of Iraq."

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #5 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 11:53 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by c00k1e
....And you, Mr Bob, are a wise man as well.

And another wise man - Ron Jacobs....
Actually, the occupation of Iraq is a brilliant clandestine plan to destabilize and eventually destroy the middle east, from the inside out.

We "pretend" were carrying out a military action by removing a dictator. In actuality, we are just importing socialism--and all the problems that come with it that has turned Amerika into a third world country.

Kind of like introducing a trojan virus into a pc. Sooner or later, it just locks up.

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post #6 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 11:55 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

To me it doesn't matter if everyone wants us out of Iraq or not. It is wrong for us to be there. That's the point. I wonder why anyone thinks it's okay.

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post #7 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 12:07 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
I wonder why anyone thinks it's okay.
Simple. Follow the money trail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jacobs
Likewise, the only way we in the United States will ever be able to truly choose our own destiny is by getting the masters of war out of our government.
Not gonna happen. See paragraph above.

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post #8 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 12:09 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Hey Jay, do you ever post anything that doesn't have the words socialism or communism in it? Methinks you are blinded by your own one-sidedness.

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post #9 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 12:15 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by meese
Hey Jay, do you ever post anything that doesn't have the words socialism or communism in it? Me thinks you are blinded by your own one-sidedness.
Hey Ken!

Depends on what we're talking about. If it's related to the downfall of Amerika--no!

Not blinded, just a little blurry.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #10 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 12:47 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
To me it doesn't matter if everyone wants us out of Iraq or not. It is wrong for us to be there. That's the point. I wonder why anyone thinks it's okay.
There is a distinct difference between us going into Iraq in the first place (bad), and us pulling out of Iraq, leaving them to collapse and be dominated by their neighbor or neighbors (even worse).

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post #11 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 3:14 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Just curious? Uhhh 9/11 was that in Iraq? Seems everyone has forgotten why we went there in the first place, Oh wait it was a conspiracy, we attacked ourselves to get it started!


http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp

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post #12 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 3:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

My opinion about the Iraq situation is along the lines of foresight Not hindsight.

At the time we decided to invade, we had recently been Attacked, we were in Afghanistan and had circumstantial evidence Hussein has WMD. By the way, we know he had WMD's since WE gave them to him when he was fighting Iran.

IF Bush and his cronies are Liars, immoral and of bad character as the "Libs" portray him, why not PLANT WMD EVIDENCE?? Surely someone as deceitful as GWBush could have easily planted the appropriate evidence and ended up as a hero! I keep forgetting, he is a DOPE!

I believe at the time we decided to go in, we were right. I think today we are 100% WRONG to set a time-table to retreat. This only emboldens bullies.

Anyone remember Daniel Pearl?? Whoever will decapitate a human on film by hand cannot, IMNSHO, behave rationally. Sometimes evil must be eradicated! Too bad Kudzu can't!

We are in troubling times, but, I think Colin Powell said it best that the only land the USA wants by "invading" these countries is enough to burry our dead!

I really need to break that soapbox!

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post #13 of 58 Old Feb 21st, 2008, 5:55 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
It's absolutely not okay that we're in Europe and Japan, or all the other countries. The military should be for defense, and only the US seems to require bases all over the world to achieve that. It's a waste of taxpayer money, and gives people a reason to attack us.

I guess I'm not invited the next time your parent's visit.
A couple of points:

Isolationism invites war - history proves it. Our presence in Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc. is to present a deterrent against aggression. One can only imagine what a dangerous place this world would be if we packed-up and left those bases.

The invasion of Iraq was to enforce a unanimous UN resolution to allow inspections for WMD or face military action. Inspections would have proved that Iraq did not have WMD, but without the deterrent of WMD, Iran would surely attack. Iraq feared Iran more than the UN and gambled that the UN would continue to waffle and stall US action. They were half right.

To abandon Iraq now would mean certain death for the tens of thousands of Iraqis that have worked with the US to establish order to their country. That alone disproves the EVERYONE theory.

Bruce Hodges
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post #14 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 3:12 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by NOGILLS2
Just curious? Uhhh 9/11 was that in Iraq? Seems everyone has forgotten why we went there in the first place, !
9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. It had nothing to do with Afganistan for that matter.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #15 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 4:52 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
It's absolutely not okay that we're in Europe and Japan, or all the other countries. The military should be for defense, and only the US seems to require bases all over the world to achieve that. It's a waste of taxpayer money, and gives people a reason to attack us.

I guess I'm not invited the next time your parent's visit.
I think it's wonderful that American troops are stationed across Europe. It means we can run down our own forces and spend the money saved on health, education, social programmes etc. instead of bombs and bullets. Thanks, guys!

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post #16 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 5:49 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by brianbeemer
I think it's wonderful that American troops are stationed across Europe. It means we can run down our own forces and spend the money saved on health, education, social programmes etc. instead of bombs and bullets. Thanks, guys!
I must have missed the letter where it said "due to US arms spending, we are going to spend less on war and you can have a tax rebate", I wonder why that was?

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #17 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 7:59 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

I agree that 9/11 and Iraq are not related. I am not sure how you came by your second assertion about Afghanistan since the Taliban was in control and they sponsored/protected the people who perpetrated the 9/11 attack. Perhaps you are foolish enough to believe that the U.S. government perpetrated 9/11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. It had nothing to do with Afganistan for that matter.

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post #18 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 8:51 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by NCoe
I agree that 9/11 and Iraq are not related. I am not sure how you came by your second assertion about Afghanistan since the Taliban was in control and they sponsored/protected the people who perpetrated the 9/11 attack. Perhaps you are foolish enough to believe that the U.S. government perpetrated 9/11.
The people who perpetrated the 9/11 attack were perported to mainly come from Saudi.
To say that the Afghans are responsible because the didnt hand over binladen would be like saying the US is responsible - as they are in charge of Afghanistan now! They dont seem to be catching him!
OBLaden is Saudi, no one threatened the Saudis (actually they were and still are treated with kid gloves);

The threat came in '95 from Saudis;
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...eat/index.html

'
June 7, 2004 (CNN) -- Purported al Qaeda militants in Saudi Arabia warned in a written statement Monday that they plan attacks on U.S. and other Western airlines and other means of transportation.The statement, translated by CNN and signed by al Qaeda's organization in the Arabian Peninsula, was posted on two Islamic Web sites.

The message warned Muslims not to spend time with Westerners, to avoid being caught up in any attack, "as well as avoiding using all shapes and forms of transportation by them."

"All compounds, bases and means of transport, especially Western and American airlines, will be the direct target for our coming operations in the near future," the statement says."





Heard of the BAE inquirey against dodgy Saudi arms deals being dropped?

"Documents released to the court showed the government thought "British lives on British streets" would have been at risk if the inquiry into alleged bribery had not been dropped."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7247714.stm

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post #19 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 10:09 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
To say that the Afghans are responsible because the didnt hand over binladen would be like saying the US is responsible - as they are in charge of Afghanistan now! They dont seem to be catching him!
PC answer: That's a false argument, at best. The al Qaeda folks were in Afganistan with the knowledge and protection of the governing body. The Taliban was proven to be complicit.

Non PC: Horse shit!

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post #20 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 10:11 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that was great:

AMERICA
Be nice to us or we'll bring democracy to your country

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post #21 of 58 Old Feb 22nd, 2008, 7:20 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
....IF Bush and his cronies are Liars, immoral and of bad character as the "Libs" portray him, why not PLANT WMD EVIDENCE?? Surely someone as deceitful as GWBush could have easily planted the appropriate evidence and ended up as a hero! I keep forgetting, he is a DOPE!....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce2000ltc
....Isolationism invites war - history proves it. Our presence in Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc. is to present a deterrent against aggression. One can only imagine what a dangerous place this world would be if we packed-up and left those bases.

The invasion of Iraq was to enforce a unanimous UN resolution to allow inspections for WMD or face military action. Inspections would have proved that Iraq did not have WMD, but without the deterrent of WMD, Iran would surely attack. Iraq feared Iran more than the UN and gambled that the UN would continue to waffle and stall US action. They were half right....
Gentlemen: don't confuse the "facts" by throwing in a little common sense, now!

Our Iraq mistake was not finishing the job that we started 15 years ago. I blame Bush, Sr for that.

Finally someone (Bush, Jr) had the balls to finish what we should have 15 years prior! The mistake was articulation of what turned out to be bad intelligence AND an ineffectual use of force. Which can be just as bad or worse than no use of force!

If you're gonna play war, you better have the balls to kill people and break things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
....AMERICA
Be nice to us or we'll bring democracy to your country
I would substitute "socialism" for "democracy" and add, "and then your country will IMPLODE, also!"

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #22 of 58 Old Feb 23rd, 2008, 11:14 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Just to add a little more fuel to this fire, check out the cover story of the New York Times Magazine section from this Sunday's paper. It reports on what it is like to deal with guys in "manjammies" in the villages of Afghanistan.

These soldiers are spread very thin. They have been stop-lossed several times meaning they have been re-enlisted against their own will. They are ambushed by the enemy who use women and children as shields. They are in a no win situation.

The problem with our military and Iraq/Afghanistam is that you can't blow up these people back to the middle ages when they already live in these conditions.

The best line in the article is from a soldier who just came our of a firefight:
The richest, most trained army got beat by dudes in manjammies and A.K.'s".

New York Times Article

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post #23 of 58 Old Feb 23rd, 2008, 4:08 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Why would anyone believe a story published by a rag that also publishes a front page story based solely on rumor and innuendo? One might just as well read the National Enquirer. The Times is known for publishing fantasy as fact. Ever heard of Jayson Blair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVB1019
Just to add a little more fuel to this fire, check out the cover story of the New York Times Magazine section from this Sunday's paper. It reports on what it is like to deal with guys in "manjammies" in the villages of Afghanistan.

These soldiers are spread very thin. They have been stop-lossed several times meaning they have been re-enlisted against their own will. They are ambushed by the enemy who use women and children as shields. They are in a no win situation.

The problem with our military and Iraq/Afghanistam is that you can't blow up these people back to the middle ages when they already live in these conditions.

The best line in the article is from a soldier who just came our of a firefight:
The richest, most trained army got beat by dudes in manjammies and A.K.'s".

New York Times Article

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post #24 of 58 Old Feb 23rd, 2008, 6:28 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCoe
Why would anyone believe a story published by a rag that also publishes a front page story based solely on rumor and innuendo? One might just as well read the National Enquirer. The Times is known for publishing fantasy as fact. Ever heard of Jayson Blair?
The Enquirer may have more credibility than the Times!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #25 of 58 Old Feb 23rd, 2008, 6:46 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

I agree that the NYTimes has lost all credibility, especially if no new facts come to light. Look for them to be without an editor very soon.

But you don't have to be a genius to realize public opinion has shifted dramatically against the war.

Quite the contrary.
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post #26 of 58 Old Feb 23rd, 2008, 9:33 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

I didn't here any of you conservatives bashing the Times when they went after Clinton?

Instead of simply following the loud mouth pill popping Rush Limbaugh, read the article and then decide if it's slanted.

The reporter was with a group of soliders for a month in the backwaters of Afganistan. He doesn't slam anyone as much as describes the incredible tension our soliders are being forced to work under.

Last time I checked, if you didn't want to work for a company any longer you could quit. If you had a contract or a committment to work for the company, you had to honor that committment first. These your men and women are being made to continue in a war even after their time is up. The article mentions that the previous group of soldiers were pulled out after refusing orders from their officers. Isn't that mutinty?

That ain't right!

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post #27 of 58 Old Feb 24th, 2008, 12:00 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

For the record, I can't stand Limbaugh so I don't listen. I do make up my own mind.

My son-in-law is in Iraq now for his second all expenses paid vacation. My three year old grandson wants to know where his daddy is. My neighbor is in Afghanistan now and he was in Iraq earlier. I don't need some idiot reporter to tell what is going on over there. I have first all the first hand accounts I need. Neither of them have had to scrounge for weapons or supplies. And yes I have asked that specifically. Do they want more? Soldiers have always wished for more but manage to make do with what they have.

My guess is anyone picking up Taliban weapons is picking up souvenirs.

Have you served in the military? I served in the Marine Corps and did manage to read the contract before I signed it. It was clear to me then that if things went bad my enlistment would not expire until the Corps said so. It was a risk I was willing take.

BTW Last I knew a newspaper's job was to tell the truth. I never believed the Times during the Clinton years either. Their fraud has been exposed too many times for them to have any credibility with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RVB1019
I didn't here any of you conservatives bashing the Times when they went after Clinton?

Instead of simply following the loud mouth pill popping Rush Limbaugh, read the article and then decide if it's slanted.

The reporter was with a group of soliders for a month in the backwaters of Afganistan. He doesn't slam anyone as much as describes the incredible tension our soliders are being forced to work under.

Last time I checked, if you didn't want to work for a company any longer you could quit. If you had a contract or a committment to work for the company, you had to honor that committment first. These your men and women are being made to continue in a war even after their time is up. The article mentions that the previous group of soldiers were pulled out after refusing orders from their officers. Isn't that mutinty?

That ain't right!

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post #28 of 58 Old Feb 24th, 2008, 1:35 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

You must be right because you haven't read the article. I must be wrong because I've never served.

I know what the military recruiters tell the students in high school when these vultures recruit these students. While I have never seen a contract or enlistment paperwork, I have heard their sales pitch on a number of occasions. The fact that they can be extended indefinitely is not part of the presentation.

As for the article, unless you actually read a document, how can you automatically make assumptions about it? Because of other articles that have been published in the past? That's sort of like saying because I knew of a few people from Orgeon who were morons, then everyone in the state must be a moron. That logic doesn't make sense.

If you and several people you know have served in times of war, read the article and tell me if it isn't true. Explain to me how exactly has it been slanted. I must be a real simpleton because I'm reading this and it sounds like our troops are not being supported. Instead, BILLIONS of our tax dollars are being sent to Halliburton and Blackwater. How much have we spent?

Before you give me the standard line, we're making our country safe by being there, remember the reason we were given initially- to get Osama Bin Laden.

Guess what- almost 7 years later- we're no closer today than on 9/12/01. So I ask, why are we there? To fix generations of tribal quarrels and hate between people that cannot get along. Now, we're equally as hated.

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post #29 of 58 Old Feb 24th, 2008, 5:22 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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... these vultures recruit these students.
Speaks volumes about your mentality.

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post #30 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 4:36 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
PC answer: That's a false argument, at best. The al Qaeda folks were in Afganistan with the knowledge and protection of the governing body. The Taliban was proven to be complicit.
In the same way as WMDs were 'proven' to be in Iraq?
Britain went into Iraq for a very simple and publicly stated 'legal' reason;

"To rid Iraq of its Weapons of Mass Destruction and their associated programmes and means of delivery, including prohibited ballistic missiles, as set out in the United Nations Security Council Resolutions"

The WMDs were not there - so we left.
Why is the US there still?
It is simple - war makes money. See the opportunity for enough money and the lies will roll.
Wars are never meant to be won or lost - just sustained. The longer they go on for the more money can be made.
Do your politicians care about loss of life? NO! Their sons and daughters are not out there - strange that eh?

No one has ever won a war in Afghanistan. The British tried, the Russians tried and now a coalition that isn't working too well together - any chance? No. But winning is not the real aim is it?

To win a war, you have to change whole idealism's and beliefs. Winning a war can take decades. Study Asian war techniques and see how China won wars - by integration and changing values.
If you kill indiscriminately, you just radicalise more people.
What would it take for you to go out and try to kill someone with far more firepower than you? A close relative or friend being killed?
Well that is what happens every day in war zones. It doesn't end a war - it prolongs it. Kill one person and 5 become fighters to revenge his death.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #31 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 7:07 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
In the same way as WMDs were 'proven' to be in Iraq?
Britain went into Iraq for a very simple and publicly stated 'legal' reason;

"To rid Iraq of its Weapons of Mass Destruction and their associated programmes and means of delivery, including prohibited ballistic missiles, as set out in the United Nations Security Council Resolutions"

The WMDs were not there - so we left.
I think there was a little more to it than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Why is the US there still?
Because we understand that a full withdrawl at this point would cause Iraq to collapse on itself. In no way will that improve anybody's security. Their's, their neighbors, your's, our's...


You make this accusation
Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
It is simple - war makes money...
And then answer your own question here
Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
To win a war, you have to change whole idealism's and beliefs. Winning a war can take decades.
How long should it take the U.S when it's primary allies don't have the backing to do what's right at this point. I said before, I was against going into Iraq, but the decision to leave has to be based on the situation now.

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post #32 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 7:40 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
I think there was a little more to it than that.



Because we understand that a full withdrawl at this point would cause Iraq to collapse on itself. In no way will that improve anybody's security. Their's, their neighbors, your's, our's...


You make this accusation


And then answer your own question here

How long should it take the U.S when it's primary allies don't have the backing to do what's right at this point. I said before, I was against going into Iraq, but the decision to leave has to be based on the situation now.
That quote was the mandate given to the British military - simple? Yes. Was there more to it? Well not legally.

As to staying due to the situation now - just 'cos you managed to break something don't mean you are the ideal person to mend it. Responsible? Sure - pay.

American 'winning hearts and minds' rhetoric will not work. Different culture and always will be. The US can not clone the states in Iraq, the US would have great difficulty in doing that to Canada and they have far more historical, religious and ethnic similarities with the US (and yet are miles different as well).

In my book, the Iraqi people are due a LOT of compensation

Great man Ron Jacobs;

"So, can the Iraqis rebuild their own country?

Of course, the Iraqis can rebuild their own country.

Furthermore, the only way the Iraqi people will be able to really choose their own destiny is by getting the US masters of war out of their country."

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #33 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 8:57 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
American 'winning hearts and minds' rhetoric will not work. Different culture and always will be.
Part of why I was against going in in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
The US can not clone the states in Iraq,
Not what's happening, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
In my book, the Iraqi people are due a LOT of compensation
Agreed...but that starts with making sure they can stand on their own two feet before we leave.

Have you heard the Iraqi government bitching about us being there? Why is that?

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post #34 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 9:23 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Wars are never meant to be won or lost - just sustained. The longer they go on for the more money can be made.
By that logic the British and the Germans must still be locked in mortal combat! Please enlighten us. Are you guys still duking it out unbeknownst to the rest of the world?

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post #35 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 9:40 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Have you heard the Iraqi government bitching about us being there? Why is that?
How democratic was the process? The plan for elections was a bit off wasn't it?
"There will be no foreign election monitors in Iraq for polling day."

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #36 of 58 Old Feb 25th, 2008, 10:25 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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By that logic the British and the Germans must still be locked in mortal combat! Please enlighten us. Are you guys still duking it out unbeknownst to the rest of the world?
There hasn't been a day in the last 100 years when a war hasn't been raging somewhere. Same arms dealers, same banks lending the money, just different people tricked into to killing each other.

The clever thing about this "war on terror", is there can be no cease fire, no surrender - there is no enemy. How can you win a war on "terror"?
Terror has been used for hundreds of years.

This is a metaphorical war - not a real one. And yet it is being treated as real.

War is traditionally waged by one state against another. (`Civil war' is different, and therefore has a different name.) The word `war' is, in this case, used metaphorically. For example, the `war on drugs', or the `war on obesity'. These are not true wars. You cannot take prisoners-of-war in the `war on obesity', at least not under the terms of the Geneva convenion!

And yet people have been plucked out of thier homes, the world round, and taken to Cuba and left to rot.

Half of the 'terrorists' picked up in Britain were released - no charge. That does NOT mean "they just didnt have the evidence against them" or "they got away with it". Remember, if you get picked up under terrorist legislation - you have NO rights. They have gone, just for being suspected. That is a frigtening thought. What if someone has a grudge against you and points the finger?

I witnessed a horrendous death in Kenya less than 10 years ago. A man was kicked to death by a crowd who moments before were just shopping. Someone had pointed a finger and said he was a thief. That was all, an accuser. No witnesses, jury, legal representation or judge. Instant death sentence. Since this "war on terror" I have heard so many people that sound like they think that pointing a finger is all that is needed to dish out justice.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" Mark Twain


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post #37 of 58 Old Mar 23rd, 2008, 10:31 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

c00k1e

I salute you for bringing some brightness to this debate, and feel sad for those who dont understand you and the facts that the rest of the world live by.

To you who belive Bush and his deeds, dont you react at anything when the total world is against your opinion of these facts and issues? Is it actualy the rest of the world that is wrong and not you?

Look where you are now, the poorest country in the world in money, a major cracked down econemy and 3 trillions in war cost + the trillions to come in repairs and welfare to 50% of the veterans who are comming back with some mental issue. That is not cheap to fix in the USA!

911 is a blueprint of Hitlers burning of the reichtag and there is loads of evidence that it was a black op. Just look at the trail of silence. Is it not funny that Pentagon which is the most surveilanced building in the USA and possibly the world, does not have one single real photograpf of any plane hitting it or comming towards it? And how does a large 757 only make a hole of 16 feet and no impact wounds for the wings and engines...how blind can you be ?

The government of GWB is in power by deciet and cheating and have made a mockery of the USA and the so called morals it had. Massive warcrimes like Abu Graib and Fallujah, spreading of DU munition dust etc and etc. Stealing their treassure and murdering at will for oil is nothing but a shame that USA will have to work real hard to get out of and it will not happen this decay or the next two.

I worked in the USA from 87 to 91 and I liked it then...now I am ashamed that I spoke so well about the country. But I still have hope, afterall there are some good folks left and many I see in this forum Good luck to you all.

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post #38 of 58 Old Mar 23rd, 2008, 1:26 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Not all of us believe the lies that Bush and his cronies keep feeding us. But all of us has to deal with the fallout, which will last long after he and his good ol' boys have retired.

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post #39 of 58 Old Mar 23rd, 2008, 3:18 pm
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"EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
....911 is a blueprint of Hitlers burning of the reichtag and there is loads of evidence that it was a black op. Just look at the trail of silence. Is it not funny that Pentagon which is the most surveilanced building in the USA and possibly the world, does not have one single real photograpf of any plane hitting it or comming towards it? And how does a large 757 only make a hole of 16 feet and no impact wounds for the wings and engines...how blind can you be?....Stealing their treassure and murdering at will for oil....
Actually, Paalao it was a BIG conspiracy! The EVIL "W," the Exxon-Mobil CEO and board, and ALL the EVIL pension holders invested in Exxon-Mobil, got together to boost Exxon-Mobil's profits. Now that we--er--they have profitted nicely, the risk was more than worth it.

I've authorized--er--heard that much more killing is going to be taking place to FURTHER boost profits (and pensions).
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Not all of us believe the lies that Bush and his cronies keep feeding us. But all of us has to deal with the fallout, which will last long after he and his good ol' boys have retired.
I should hope not! Did we believe the lies that any other politician fed us? The fallout will be no different than any other prior--or after. When HIS "good ol' boys" have retired, the "NEW" good ol' boys will arrive.

Kind of like capturing a drug king-pin. New king-pins immediately fill the vacuum!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #40 of 58 Old Mar 23rd, 2008, 3:26 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Never have I seen a more fitting signature
Jay! hehe Sorry man I just had to!

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post #41 of 58 Old Mar 23rd, 2008, 3:36 pm
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"EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
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Never have I seen a more fitting signature
Jay! hehe Sorry man I just had to!
Couldn't AGREE with you more! That's why it's there. Look what I'm responding to?! No apologies necessary. All in fun.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #42 of 58 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 11:37 am
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVB1019
You must be right because you haven't read the article. I must be wrong because I've never served.

As for the article, unless you actually read a document, how can you automatically make assumptions about it? Because of other articles that have been published in the past? That's sort of like saying because I knew of a few people from Orgeon who were morons, then everyone in the state must be a moron. That logic doesn't make sense.

The NY Slime's Reputation precedes itself, so it is not a leap of faith to decide not to read it. It is a news organ of the Liberal Left, so what, everyone knows it.


As to Oregon, well someone from Oregon can take that up with you.

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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by Dan-A
The NY Slime's Reputation precedes itself, so it is not a leap of faith to decide not to read it. It is a news organ of the Liberal Left, so what, everyone knows it.


As to Oregon, well someone from Oregon can take that up with you.

I am currious, how do you classify FOX News ?

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post #44 of 58 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 12:22 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

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Originally Posted by paalao
I am currious, how do you classify FOX News ?
Guess it depends on your political slant . . .
but here are some Internet bytes
Click here!

and from their Website
Click Here!!
"We Report, You Decide.

If anyone has ever been involved with personal knowledge of a news story it is very different than what is reported in the media, either print or electronic.

Recently in the city, we have had 100+ year old water mains bursting and causing significant damage. The "on the scene" report was explaining how the "SONAR" devices were working to find gurgling sounds that might be related to other potential failures.

Sorry Tracy McCool, it's an amplified listening device not SONAR. Just a simple example of lack of knowledge and unverified "poetic license"!
Politics just amplifies the editorial comment and personal politics of the reporteres, producers and the funding of the specific media outlet . . . conservative or liberal.

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post #45 of 58 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 12:37 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
I am currious, how do you classify FOX News ?
A lonely conservative voice in a sea of liberal media.

I would point out that when Fox conducts interviews on their OPINION shows, which include Oreilly, Hannity/Coombs etc. they almost always have two or more opposing points of view debating.

Even in the self cannibalization of the Democrat Party, they have an Obama supporter squared off against a Hillary supporter.

As to the NEWS programs, they only run a few, Shepard Smith and Brit Hume conduct "hard news" vs. "opinion" programs. To me, those do not appear biased, but to a NYT reader, or a CNN viewer, I suppose they would.

I beleive most reporters are liberals so though I agree that Fox News is conservative, I do think it is more "fair" than what I see than on the networks, or the other cable outlets.

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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-A
I would point out that when Fox conducts interviews on their OPINION shows, which include Oreilly, Hannity/Coombs etc. they almost always have two or more opposing points of view debating.
You mean those "paper liberals" that they keep parading by simply so they can trounce anything that doesn't agree with their own views?

Fox is just as bad as the rest of them, and in many cases much, much worse. They're only "fair and balanced" if you already happen to agree with their own particular biases.

I think most reporters are capitalists, or really sensationalists. They know that to get ahead in their field they have to play to whatever brings the most viewers, and therefore the most advertising money. It's not about honestly reporting the events of the day and how they affect people, it's about grabbing the public in such a way that they can't change the channel.

"News" programs are simply the original "reality" shows, fed to people in small digestible bites so they can feel well informed without having to put any thought or effort into it.

Ken
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Last edited by meese; Mar 31st, 2008 at 2:07 pm.
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post #47 of 58 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 2:54 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

To Dan-A

Figures why you would diss NYT when your view is that of to the other side.

Well let me ask you this then, which of them have been more right?
Most of NYT`s predictions have come thrue, that is far far away from FOX`s.

Fox is a show with a news theme spin and as meese say but in other words. my words. Fox news have NEVER been fair and balanced! It is a dogmative slure that appeal to the ultra conservative and the UNeducated! And of course to the rich who make money on others foolishnes.

Here is a video of a typical Fox news audiense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyQqg...eature=related

Incidently, 90% of kids age 10 in europe know the locations of most of the countries, especially the big ones!

Herre is a womans take on news:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/erica-...t_b_81288.html

Dan I am not saying you are one of them, I am only generelizing the fox news standard audience

Pease

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Last edited by paalao; Mar 31st, 2008 at 3:12 pm.
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post #48 of 58 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 3:57 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
You mean those "paper liberals" that they keep parading by simply so they can trounce anything that doesn't agree with their own views?
I am not sure what a paper liberal is, but I will assume from your reply, you mean someone not liberal enough. I have seen some pretty tough liberals on Fox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
is just as bad as the rest of them, and in many cases much, much worse.
So we at least agree on the NY Times.

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post #49 of 58 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 8:01 pm
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Re: "EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

A paper liberal is basically someone they choose who has weak arguments and no debating skills just so they can easily knock him down and thus imply that everyone who holds an alternate opinion is wrong and should simply be discounted.

It's like picking the smallest guy in class and kicking his a$$ so that you look tough, when really you have nothing of substance to put forward. And Fox is a master of those types of tactics, just as they are a master of using fear and terror to scare those who are too bored/lazy/unsophisticated to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

"OMG! Saddam has WMDs and he's coming for you RIGHT NOW!" Or "Obama attended a Madrassa" (which simply means school) "and so he's obviously a radical Islamic terrorist that wants to destroy our country from the inside." (And yes, I've actually seen both of those "stories" as breaking headlines on Fox, with all the attendant hype and drama. And I've talked to people who believed every word, with fear and panic rising inside them.

And now Fox is making the exact same statements regarding Iran and North Korea that they made about Iraq a few years back. If that isn't a prelude to get W's war machine headed into a new country then I don't know what is. I just hope that we get him and his cronies the hell out before they can do any more damage than they've already done to our freedoms, our economy, our country, and quite frankly, the entire world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-A
So we at least agree on the NY Times.
Now doesn't that just ignore everything I've said and simply focus on the tiny piece of the argument that happens to support your own preconceived notions. How convenient.

All of the media is biased. Sure more of it leans left than right, but it's all watered down and spoon-fed to the masses in such a way that there's little "truth" left. But yeah, Fox is particularly aggressive at it, to the point of criminality.

Ken
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Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #50 of 58 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 12:28 am
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"EVERYONE" wants us out of Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
...."News" programs are simply the original "reality" shows, fed to people in small digestible bites so they can feel well informed without having to put any thought or effort into it.
A wise man once told a young buck, that he only believes 50% of what he sees and almost nothing of what he hears. Wonder why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
A paper liberal is basically someone they choose who has weak arguments and no debating skills just so they can easily knock him down and thus imply that everyone who holds an alternate opinion is wrong and should simply be discounted.
A solid position doesn't need arguments--for or against. Truth is undeniable. Perhaps if the "paper liberal" was more logical and less emotional, he wouldn't be arguing, much less weakly.
Quote:
It's like picking the smallest guy in class and kicking his a$$ so that you look tough, when really you have nothing of substance to put forward. And Fox is a master of those types of tactics, just as they are a master of using fear and terror to scare those who are too bored/lazy/unsophisticated to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.
If this is true, and if there are such people, Fox has created the ultimate reality (or should I say fantasy) show, just for them. Water seeks its' own level. Don't try and stand in the way.
Quote:
"OMG! Saddam has WMDs and he's coming for you RIGHT NOW!"
Perhaps Fox could have been of some use to the Kurds?
Quote:
And now Fox is making the exact same statements regarding Iran and North Korea that they made about Iraq a few years back. If that isn't a prelude to get W's war machine headed into a new country then I don't know what is. I just hope that we get him and his cronies the hell out before they can do any more damage than they've already done to our freedoms, our economy, our country, and quite frankly, the entire world.
Don't worry, the next guy/cronies (or gal) will continue right where the old guy left off.
Quote:
....more of it leans left than right, but it's all watered down and spoon-fed to the masses in such a way that there's little "truth" left. But yeah, Fox is particularly aggressive at it, to the point of criminality.
So....Fox has a duty and obligation to accurately and truthfully report news? Why would any media outlet do that? Would ruin the reality (fantasy) show, don't you think? Water continues to seek its' own level--even if it has to run a little uphill to do so?!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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