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post #1 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 10:28 am Thread Starter
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Okay gang,

Since I didn't get an answer on the thread itself, I will try to get it here.

Why won't you simply ban all discussions of a religious or political nature on this list? You have banned nudity, because some might be offended, what is the difference? You KNOW that either topic is going to offend too. The idea of slipping it into the Supporting Members Only section obviously doesn't end it and that is not what I am paying a supporting fee for.

If someone wishes to talk about religion there are several lists, both pro and con they can go and chat all they want about it. If someone wants to discuss politics there are untold numbers of lists where their banter is welcomed. The text under "Welcome" on the home page says it all. What does heated discussions of religion or politics have to do with riding a BMW and having fun? I pay to support this list, because I have gained a lot of useful information and made a lot of friends here, but this divisive crap needs to stop, because it sure isn't making friends and it certainly isn't useful information.

Perhaps I am wrong and it's just me, so maybe you could put up a poll (I don't know how to start a poll or I would do it myself)(maybe you could PM me with directions for starting a poll?) asking if they wish to allow or ban these discussions and see which way the majority goes? Then make your decision. Hmmmm?

Jerry
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post #2 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 11:01 am
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+1 up on this topic. I'll be a supporter shortly after posting this...

Mark
'07 RT
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post #3 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 11:06 am
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Great suggestion!

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CCR: 2008, Midway; 2011, Boise; 2012, Duluth; 2014, Chattanooga. MOA: Billings, 2015; SLC, 2017
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post #4 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 12:14 pm
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Yep,

Works for me. Because, I come back to read these types of posts, not for informational value, but to see who is slamming who and who won't give up.

Kind of soap operaish!

John

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post #5 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 2:38 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
Okay gang,

Since I didn't get an answer on the thread itself, I will try to get it here.

Why won't you simply ban all discussions of a religious or political nature on this list? You have banned nudity, because some might be offended, what is the difference? You KNOW that either topic is going to offend too. The idea of slipping it into the Supporting Members Only section obviously doesn't end it and that is not what I am paying a supporting fee for.

If someone wishes to talk about religion there are several lists, both pro and con they can go and chat all they want about it. If someone wants to discuss politics there are untold numbers of lists where their banter is welcomed. The text under "Welcome" on the home page says it all. What does heated discussions of religion or politics have to do with riding a BMW and having fun? I pay to support this list, because I have gained a lot of useful information and made a lot of friends here, but this divisive crap needs to stop, because it sure isn't making friends and it certainly isn't useful information.

Perhaps I am wrong and it's just me, so maybe you could put up a poll (I don't know how to start a poll or I would do it myself)(maybe you could PM me with directions for starting a poll?) asking if they wish to allow or ban these discussions and see which way the majority goes? Then make your decision. Hmmmm?
Nudity is banned because many people read the forum at work. The religion/ politics have been moved to a non-public forum. If you don't want to read those threads (I don't) just pass them by...

__________
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2007 G650 X Challenge
2006 GT200
2005 R1200GS


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post #6 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 3:12 pm
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I kind of like seeing the diverse background of the large family that is this forum. It kinda lets me know those I have things in common with. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like the guy I disagree with on various topics. I also find that I learn a lot by listening to others opinions and views on various subjects. Granted I could surf the web for specific forums on these subjects but it would not be the opinions of my BMW cohorts and that matters to me. All that said I generally steer clear of commenting on the divisive stuff

Jerry
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post #7 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 3:25 pm
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Just as Ted said. Religion/Politics are banned from public forums. Since some of our members still feel the need to discuss religion/politics these types of discussions have been moved to a forum that is non-public, not accessible to search engines.

This is a service we created for our supporting members since we have always been of the opinion that information should flow as freely as possible, but at the same time did not want to become a battleground in the public for right vs left, gun vs no gun, god vs allah vs Jahwe vs Buddha vs GWB.

This is not to say that the supporting members forum has ONLY these types of discussions, over time (remember this forum was only created a few days ago) there will be many more discussions going on in the supporting members forum, BECAUSE rules are a little bit more relaxed, and things can be discussed there which cannot be discussed in open forums.

Andreas Pleschutznig
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post #8 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 3:33 pm
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I agree with the intent of keeping an enthusiast’s site on what brings the enthusiasm!

I'm having problems with the policing of someone’s statements.

How religious is religious? How political is political? Was that sarcasm or a political statement?

As the "Great American “Rodney King once said, "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"

Hate to quote the King, but, it fits.

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post #9 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 3:34 pm Thread Starter
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So it is okay to throw battle axes as long as they pay for the privilege?

Poll?

Jerry
Look in the wolf's eyes and what do you see--A guardian spirit or fierce enemy?
2008 FLHTCU White Pearl

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post #10 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 4:10 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
I agree with the intent of keeping an enthusiast’s site on what brings the enthusiasm!
Great!

Quote:
I'm having problems with the policing of someone’s statements.

How religious is religious? How political is political? Was that sarcasm or a political statement?
If saomeone makes a statement that COULD be interpreted as political it may be interpreted as political.

Here is the dilemma:

a) We disallow ALL political and reiligous discussion, which does not solve the above problem and you may get your thread/post moderated or deleted OR
b) We 'allow' but do not encourage these types of discussion, but you may end up having your thread moved to a non public forum.

Unfortunately the way this has been played lately the option of just leaving them alone is simply not an option because that goes against the initial comments about motorcycling.

Andreas Pleschutznig
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post #11 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 4:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
So it is okay to throw battle axes as long as they pay for the privilege?
NO, throwing the battle axes will still not be OK. Not even if you pay a lot. Well maybe there are sites, but not here. A political, religious discussion does not necessarily have to end up in throwing battle axes, and if it does it will be ended no matter which forum it is in.

Where are you trying to go?

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post #12 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 6:10 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
I agree with the intent of keeping an enthusiast’s site on what brings the enthusiasm!

I'm having problems with the policing of someone’s statements.

How religious is religious? How political is political? Was that sarcasm or a political statement?
Good comments and this is leading to dangerous ground IMO. Where do you draw the line - could peoples Avtar, Sig or Username be banned as well?

Regards

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post #13 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 6:13 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grahamw
Good comments and this is leading to dangerous ground IMO. Where do you draw the line - could peoples Avtar, Sig or Username be banned as well?

Regards
We have asked people to change all of those things in the past when the mods felt they violated site guidelines. We always discuss it first and have never had to ban anyone because of an Avatar or Sig line.

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post #14 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 7:31 pm
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I come here to discuss motorcycles and related issues ONLY !, not religon or politics. There are plenty of discussion forums for those subjects.

Larry
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post #15 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 8:04 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrykay
I come here to discuss motorcycles and related issues ONLY !, not religon or politics. There are plenty of discussion forums for those subjects.
That's fine, then don't read the threads in humor, chit chat etc....

There is enough motorcycle content here to keep you busy.

If others want to discuss these topics they can in the proper forum. Yes, there are other sites out there, but it really is more fun to interact on line with people that you KNOW. Unlike most forums, I have actually met many of the people here in person and that makes the online discussions even better, no matter what the topic.

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post #16 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 9:20 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
NO, throwing the battle axes will still not be OK. Not even if you pay a lot. Well maybe there are sites, but not here. A political, religious discussion does not necessarily have to end up in throwing battle axes, and if it does it will be ended no matter which forum it is in.

Where are you trying to go?
To your first point, just how much worse does it have to get?

To your question "Where are you trying to go?" I am trying to get to a small place which seems to be a great distance from here, you may have heard of it, it's called Civility and people respect rules and each other there.

Now for the third time...POLL?

Jerry
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post #17 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 9:35 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
To your first point, just how much worse does it have to get?
SO FAR, at least by my standards I have not gotten any complaints from the contestants, and what I have seen is a discussion that has no place in an open forum, but as long as they do it behind closed doors ....

Quote:
To your question "Where are you trying to go?" I am trying to get to a small place which seems to be a great distance from here, you may have heard of it, it's called Civility and people respect rules and each other there.
Agreed. And I believe YOU will get there at some time in the future. Now about others: Isn't that the same thing as telling them what they should believe?

Quote:
Now for the third time...POLL?
NO. LOL.

Wait let me rephrase that: You can do a poll about how much ice cream the members think you should eat at the next RTE. LOL.

BTW, since this thread has nothing to do with the help desk any more I moved it to the ChitChat.

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post #18 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 9:35 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
To your first point, just how much worse does it have to get?

To your question "Where are you trying to go?" I am trying to get to a small place which seems to be a great distance from here, you may have heard of it, it's called Civility and people respect rules and each other there.

Now for the third time...POLL?
I agree with Jerry,

This site should be about BMW motorcycles, riding, touring, gear and events and the people and friendships of a good motorcycle forum. We have crossed the line to many times. I like the ignore feature, but when someone quotes, I see that.


I am glad that the discussion was hidden from general view; it should have been done sooner. We are copied and pasted to other forums with some of discussions. Good or bad. I hate it when they say the LT folks are talking about ???? again, and paste the link.



As a suggestion, make only the bike forums, Curve Cowboy Reunion and Vendors forums viewable to visitors. Regional forums and other personal forums like In Memoriam, Ride Tales, Photography, Dealers experiences, Surveys, Humor, Chit Chat only viewable by supporters.



I realize that the “For Supporting Member Only” is only a few days old, and hope it improves, but I think we need a folder or forum for the non-bike discussions, then if someone chooses to read and discuss…well be it…any topic they want to have the last word about….seems that what it mostly about.



As it stands now, I could never support this forum again, have all the benefits of the other folders and only miss out on the discussions by a few. My name will not be colored and in bold. Hey that not a bad deal. Unsubscribe me and send my money back.

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post #19 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 9:54 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrykay
I come here to discuss motorcycles and related issues ONLY !
This coming from a man who writes about non-motorcycle topics in one out of every six of his posts.

I suppose that, while you come here for motorcycles and related issues "ONLY," you find yourself participating in other areas that also interest you. Seems fair enough. Might as well let everyone else do that, too.
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post #20 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 10:14 pm
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Good comments and this is leading to dangerous ground IMO. Where do you draw the line - could peoples Avtar, Sig or Username be banned as well?
Where do we draw the line? Simple. The forum guidelines spell that one out very clearly. " ... Enforcement of the guidelines is at the discretion of the Moderators with oversight by the Administrators. ..."

Now to answer your question directly, *COULD* peoples avatar's signature or username be banned? Sure it *COULD*. Was not needed so far. EVERYTHING that is visible on the monitor when someone opens up the computer is subject to the forum rules. EVERYTHING. Or would you not have us stop usernames (IF someone go and use them) that are pornographic or avatars that are pornographic?

As you see everything is subject to the forum guidelines. So far neither God, nor Allah nor Jesus nor Hillary Clinton nor GWB nor any other of those illustrious figures and and used became member. And if it would happen and he/she is not the real thing we *might* decide that this is cyber squatting and terminate it.

It all comes back to the green statement above.

Oh, and just to make things clear: The discussions about religion/politics/... are *NOT* BANNED. They were just moved from public view into the supporting members forum. In addition there have some other discussions/posts been posted in that forum.

Andreas Pleschutznig
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post #21 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 11:04 pm
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Originally Posted by BamaLT

As it stands now, I could never support this forum again, have all the benefits of the other folders and only miss out on the discussions by a few. My name will not be colored and in bold. Hey that not a bad deal. Unsubscribe me and send my money back.

We'll miss you, but we're keeping the money...

__________
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2007 G650 X Challenge
2006 GT200
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post #22 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 11:09 pm
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We'll miss you, but we're keeping the money...
That what my first wife said..story of my life

Oh well, I made it without her for past 24 years too!

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post #23 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 11:17 pm
 
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post #24 of 50 Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 11:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaLT
. . . but I think we need a folder or forum for the non-bike discussions . . .
And that's exactly why the Chit Chat forum was created. And the Humor forum, for that matter. Folks were complaining of too many off-topic posts in the main LT forum (and rightly so), so the Admins responded by creating these other areas for non bike related posts. That way, you can easily skip threads that don't interest you, or even an entire forum if you wish.

You have to remember this is basically an enthusiast site, run by guys who have volunteered endless amounts of time, effort, and even money just to create a place for us all to hang out and share information. They're human too, and a site like this tends to naturally evolve to better serve its members as it grows. But remember that it's all volunteer work, and the Admins should be thanked for their extraordinary efforts far more often than they are.

I've learned more about LTs and BMWs here than anywhere else, and tried to share that knowledge with others when I could. I've easily saved thousands of dollars by doing my own maintenance work, based primarily on information freely shared here. And I've probably saved thousands by carefully choosing my farkles based on some of the best user reviews available from guys who ride the same bike I do. And I'm proud to say that I've made a lot of friends here over the years from all walks of life, some of whom I even disagree with on occasion.

A Basic yearly membership fee is less than half a tank of gas, and even a Platinum membership is less than a tire. Either of these will easily pay for itself many times over. Sounds pretty simple to me.

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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
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post #25 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 1:21 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaLT
I agree with Jerry,

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]This site should be about BMW motorcycles, riding, touring, gear and events and the people and friendships of a good motorcycle forum.
And so by extension...When at work you should only be allowed to talk about work related subjects? Out to eat...only conversations about food? Go to a car show and all you are allowed to talk about is cars?
A forum is a community and all kinds of things get talked about in communities, not just a single thing, how boring would that be? People would come just when they had a question or problem. Once that is solved, you'd never see them again until they had another problem or question. Can we say "Stagnant"?
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post #26 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 7:43 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaLT
I agree with Jerry,

This site should be about BMW motorcycles, riding, touring, gear and events and the people and friendships of a good motorcycle forum. We have crossed the line to many times. I like the ignore feature, but when someone quotes, I see that.
And I disagree with Jerry

Although I must admit I enjoy his candor, wit and humor,
especially the line about dropping the hammer on spent cartridges, classic.

This site is about BMW motorcycles as much as it is about the people who ride them and their lifestyle!

I commend the moderators for their patience and for their stance against any kind of censorship, personal beliefs are part of us.

You are welcome to disagree but we don't want to be told what we can or cannot do or talk about (providing it is polite and civil)

Where will it stop? One of us may be offended by the word: Goldwing,
(ok I know that's a stretch, used only as an illustration)
tolerance.....let me repeat that ....tolerance of people with different ideas.
That and the understanding that we are all created equal ..... blah, blah, blah.

If I want to belive in the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Jesus Christ (not necessarily in that order) how does that effect anybody else?
And why would anyone feel the desire to "piss on that"?

Y'all can disagree with me all you want,
just show some class and quit being so damn hatefull!


Hans
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post #27 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 8:01 am
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, and the Admins should be thanked for their extraordinary efforts far more often than they are.
What? I know every admin on this site. They're basically homeless people working out of public libraries. Next time you see one, throw him a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20.



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post #28 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 8:12 am
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What? I know every admin on this site. They're basically homeless people working out of public libraries. Next time you see one, throw him a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20.
Grif, can you ship me the mad dog? I like to mix it with a little 7-up, so don't forget that!

Brian
CCR: 2008, Midway; 2011, Boise; 2012, Duluth; 2014, Chattanooga. MOA: Billings, 2015; SLC, 2017
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post #29 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 8:17 am
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What? I know every admin on this site. They're basically homeless people working out of public libraries. Next time you see one, throw him a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20.
I did just that --- the dood threw a splash or two under each armpit; poured the rest in the coolant reservoir; opened a fresh can of carb cleaner and chug-lugged it; and then bit into a squeeze tube of red Loctite - smacked his lips, got a real bad case of the hiccups, and barfed in the fiction aisle!!! I don't think they're gonna let him back in the library anymore!!
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post #30 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 8:59 am
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Originally Posted by Lonewuff
Perhaps I am wrong and it's just me...
It's not just you, but yes, you're wrong.

R&P threads don't piss off people, people piss off people. One of the recent religious threads was for the most part very civil and informative from both sides. The second was a pure troll job with divisive intent. Not surprisingly, it got a little ugly. The problem was not the topic.

I really don't have a say in this, but IMO an R&P forum is the answer. Boards that I visit, that have one, operate just fine. Folks that are capable of having these types of discussions (the personal attack standard still applies) know where to go. For those that R&P is not their cup of tea, well, if the bench says "wet paint" and you sit in it....

Yes this is a motorcycle forum, but I would hope the people here are not that one dimensional. We absolutely should be able to discuss cars, guns, airplanes, women....whatever. Give those that aren't afraid to touch on taboo topics a place to take it. If that is around the corner, out of site from the public, so be it.

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post #31 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:10 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBuffalo
If I want to belive in the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Jesus Christ (not necessarily in that order) how does that effect anybody else?
And why would anyone feel the desire to "piss on that"?

Y'all can disagree with me all you want,
just show some class and quit being so damn hatefull!
Hans, you get it. (I think )

The flip side of that coin is people that don't belive in the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Jesus Christ (not necessarily in that order) , should be afforded the exact same courtesy.

Intolerance is a weed, whether it's growing in your yard, or your neighbors.

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post #32 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 11:07 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Hans, you get it. (I think )

The flip side of that coin is people that don't belive in the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Jesus Christ (not necessarily in that order) , should be afforded the exact same courtesy.

Intolerance is a weed, whether it's growing in your yard, or your neighbors.
Yup, I do get it,

I will talk religion with someone that's interested
but I won't preach it to someone who isn't.

Since my faith doesn't affect anybody else it is a total lack of "class"
for someone to "piss on me and my beliefs"

(and that is how all this ugliness started, not by someone preaching)

Then I have to stand up and defend my position.

I'm still working on that being meek part.


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post #33 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 11:37 am Thread Starter
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Something I learned about people a long time ago: People who want to share their religious (political, environmental, or moral) views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.

Jerry
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post #34 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 1:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBuffalo
and that is how all this ugliness started, not by someone preaching
Granted, but regardless of how it got started, that thread turned out to be the most level-headed thread on religion I've seen on this board, in the nearly five years I've been here.

Some good stuff did come out of these last few days. Wonder how many people here knew who came up with the big bang theory? Or the origins of "separation of church and state"?

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post #35 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 1:24 pm
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Preach the Gospel...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
Something I learned about people a long time ago: People who want to share their religious (political, environmental, or moral) views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.
"Preach the gospel always, when necessary, use words." some guy named "St. Francis of Assisi"...

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post #36 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 1:36 pm
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I will talk religion with someone that's interested
but I won't preach it to someone who isn't.

If only everyone could subscribe to this line of thinking. Substitute any subject with "Religion" and it's still a good credo to live by.

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post #37 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 2:45 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewuff
Something I learned about people a long time ago: People who want to share their religious (political, environmental, or moral) views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.
I'll share if you don't backwash.



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post #38 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 2:46 pm
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Shred
Nudity is banned because many people read the forum at work. The religion/ politics have been moved to a non-public forum. If you don't want to read those threads (I don't) just pass them by...
I think we should have a poll: Who wants nudity back??? Those in favor say "I"

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post #39 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 2:53 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg
I think we should have a poll: Who wants nudity back??? Those in favor say "I"

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIII


We simply can't take ourselves too seriously. I know I don't!

Can you spell "NO" ?
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post #40 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 2:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
Can you spell "NO" ?
I can spell "NOW". Close enough?

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post #41 of 50 Old Jan 3rd, 2008, 7:07 pm Thread Starter
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Andy wrote:
"NO. LOL.

Wait let me rephrase that: You can do a poll about how much ice cream the members think you should eat at the next RTE. LOL."


Now I really feel like a fool. Here all those guys were saying what a dick you were and I stuck up for you. Boy that'll teach me.

Jerry
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post #42 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 1:44 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
. Wonder how many people here knew who came up with the big bang theory?
Don't remember his name but he was a Reverend/preacher, what-have-you.
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post #43 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 7:40 am
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Bang!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morley
Don't remember his name but he was a Reverend/preacher, what-have-you.
Here's where I posted it... Check about halfway through page 2 of posts..
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...3&page=2&pp=50

Here is the link to the specific info:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ce/sc0022.html

a Catholic Priest..

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post #44 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 9:48 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
Some good stuff did come out of these last few days. Wonder how many people here knew who came up with the big bang theory?
I heard a black preacher explain it once. God said it, "BANG" and there it was.

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Merry Christmas!

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the 880's are far superior than B020's.
This could go on for a long time and never reach an end.

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post #46 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 11:03 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
God said it, "BANG" and there it was.
Kinda sounds like "In the beginning", huh?

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post #47 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 3:22 pm
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I've been thinking about this thread. For over 8 years now we've been talking, bikes, family, plumbing, tree's, building, religion, politics and everything else under the sun. What's changed?



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post #48 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 3:44 pm
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I don't know Grif. I've always felt that any topic could be discussed by reasonable men with reasonable consideration of others. If the intent is to discuss, a discussion ensues. If the intent is to argue or inflame, well then that will surely follow. In other words, don't start no shit and there won't be no shit.

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post #49 of 50 Old Jan 4th, 2008, 3:45 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
What's changed?
Trolls have changed to be more sophisticated. Sometime they now come looking like everybody else.

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