Santa vs. Jesus . . . food for thought - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 10:14 am Thread Starter
 
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Exclamation Santa vs. Jesus . . . food for thought

I didn't see any threads trying to discredit the belief in Santa Claus. Why is that?!?! And I'm guessing that there will be the same lack during Easter. Not one, single thread slamming the Easter Bunny. What gives???

But EVERY year you can't bet your bottom dollar that the "atheists" will be trying to wave their colors ... shouting from the rooftops of how there's no God and their right to believe that way. FWIW, I do believe that they have that right. Whole-heartedly.

What confounds me is the "atheists" that feel the need to bash on my beliefs. I believe in Jesus. Period. And I have that right ... last time I checked. The confounding part is, if atheists truly believe that there is no God, than why does Jesus seem to concern them so much? One would think they'd dismiss the whole notion the way I dismiss the whole Santa thing. Heck! I didn't even tell my deceived little girl there was NO Santa. I let her live out her beliefs until she decided for herself what was "true", and what was not.

The only thing I can figure is that these "atheists" really do believe in God, they just refuse to submit to Him. And, they're trying to drag us along for their ride as well. Well...I don't think so! BTDT. Wasn't too impressed.

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post #2 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 10:31 am
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. . . because nobody's taking Miracle on 34th Street as the one true gospel that should be defended regardless of logic or reason. They realize it's just a story, meant to entertain and maybe teach us to be kind to others, nothing more.

Santa doesn't come knocking on my door telling me I'm damned if I don't believe in him, or that I should kill those who don't submit to him.

The biggest problem with religion is the absolute condescension of the true believers and the need to force it down everyone else's throat at all costs.

But if you need to believe in some made-up idol the way children do, then you go right ahead. Please just leave me out of it.

And my apologies to the rest of the crowd. We actually had a reasonable discussion going in the other thread, with most folks remaining impassioned but respectful even while disagreeing.

Maybe it's just PMS (Parked Motorcycle Syndrome) kicking in, in which case I'm going for a nice, long ride rather than continue this useless diatribe.

Enjoy your holidays, everyone.

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Last edited by meese; Dec 29th, 2007 at 10:41 am.
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post #3 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 11:28 am Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by meese
Santa doesn't come knocking on my door telling me I'm damned if I don't believe in him, or that I should kill those who don't submit to him.
And again...this statement just puts an exclamation point on my point. Why does it matter to you if you don't believe in Jesus? I don't get it. Why not just simply shrug your shoulders, grin, and be about your business?

Seems to me y'all feel the need to preach your beliefs (or lack thereof) almost more than us Christians do. Odd.
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post #4 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 11:58 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
And again...this statement just puts an exclamation point on my point. Why does it matter to you if you don't believe in Jesus? I don't get it. Why not just simply shrug your shoulders, grin, and be about your business?

Seems to me y'all feel the need to preach your beliefs (or lack thereof) almost more than us Christians do. Odd.

That will get the pagans going...
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post #5 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 12:23 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Seems to me y'all feel the need to preach your beliefs (or lack thereof) almost more than us Christians do. Odd.
Yeah, like it was an athiest who started his own thread to profess his beliefs. I was just wondering what took you so long...

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post #6 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 3:33 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Seems to me y'all feel the need to preach your beliefs (or lack thereof) almost more than us Christians do. Odd.
Hmmmmmm, who is it that goes door to door trying to get people to come to their church? Who keeps coming around at any and all "religious" holidays asking for money or other such donations? Is it the atheists???? Don't think so. Get down off your pulpet, put your bible back under your pillow and let the rest of us believe or not what we want without browbeaing us with your beliefs.
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post #7 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 4:04 pm
 
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Hmmmmmm, who is it that goes door to door trying to get people to come to their church? Who keeps coming around at any and all "religious" holidays asking for money or other such donations? Is it the atheists???? Don't think so. Get down off your pulpet, put your bible back under your pillow and let the rest of us believe or not what we want without browbeaing us with your beliefs.
Just what is a "pulpet" is it the Altar where goats and such are sacrificed???
wait that would be pagan.
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post #8 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 6:11 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
.The biggest problem with religion is the absolute condescension of the true believers and the need to force it down everyone else's throat at all costs.
I can't believe I'm getting sucked into another religious debate

but I feel obligated to point out that in the other thread
an unprovoked attack was launched from the atheist's "corner"
and with "absolute condescension" they forced their beliefs down our throats"

or was that just Bullshit?


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post #9 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 6:11 pm
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Originally Posted by messenger13
And again...this statement just puts an exclamation point on my point.
No, actually, it doesn't. Atheists/Agnostics don't go door to door telling people they're wrong. They don't go into our schools trying to force a silly bedtime story about how the world was created into the curriculum. They don't build huge shrines and put on hocus-pocus shows designed solely to suck all the money out of poor, misguided souls. They don't start illegal and unjustifiable wars that kill thousands of trusting young soldiers merely to promote their own interests. Then they don't go to those soldier's funerals claiming that god has abandoned America and that all will perish.

I don't really care what you believe or not, until you start forcing it on me in a million different ways. Then I will stand up and refute all the nonsense thrown at me "for my own good."

And you're the one who compared Jesus with Santa and the Easter Bunny. Just another fictional character with a cute story to calm and control the children of the world. On second thought, maybe you know more than you realize.

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post #10 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 6:29 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
... Atheists/Agnostics don't go door to door telling people they're wrong. They don't go into our schools trying to force a silly bedtime story about how the world was created into the curriculum...
Ken, responding to just the above portion of your post:

It's called the Great Commission. Christians were commanded to spread the gospel to the whole world. Other ways of spreading the gospel could include radio, TV, inviting you to church, etc.; you get the idea.

At the very least, you have to give them credit: those who come to your door are doing what all Christians are supposed to do. If you politely say "no, thanks" and close the door that should be the end of it, and that doesn't qualify as cramming it down your throat. Now, if they persist, are rude, etc. -- shame on them.

The rest of your post... I can't argue with. Wars, etc...

Like Hans, I can't believe I'm getting involved in this again. But also like Hans, I have an obligation.

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post #11 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 6:54 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese

Atheists/Agnostics don't go door to door telling people they're wrong. They don't go into our schools trying to force a silly bedtime story about how the world was created into the curriculum.

No...they just go to the SUPREME COURT to tell others they are wrong when we had been praying in schools and teaching creation since before the founding of this nation. For you to say, "..they don't go into schools trying to force" their ideas is very ludicrous and indefensible as an argument when that is EXACTLY what they did.

They don't build huge shrines and put on hocus-pocus shows designed solely to suck all the money out of poor, misguided souls.

Uh...you need to check the out the "financial integrity" of America's most famous Atheist Madeline Murray O'hare, her organization "American Athiests" and how her own son killed her for $$$$
And of course Mao never did this... Certainly, neither did Lenin or Stalin You couldn't find a picture or image of them ANYWHERE in their respective nations....no huge shrines to their own names or anything like that....no, no no a thousand times no! Oh, wait a minute, actually they did all of that and more...they expected the people to serve and worship THEM or die by the untold millions


They don't start illegal and unjustifiable wars that kill thousands of trusting young soldiers merely to promote their own interests.

Doh...I forgot about Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong II, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. (i.e. - see above

Most of you are making WAY too many GENERAL comments. Just thought I'd correct a few of your WRONG apriority assumptions

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post #12 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 7:21 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
It's called the Great Commission. Christians were commanded to spread the gospel to the whole world.
I know, it's an integral part of most religious doctrines. But some folks take it way too far. And if you don't buy into whatever dogma they're preaching, then it quickly gets tiresome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
Like Hans, I can't believe I'm getting involved in this again. But also like Hans, I have an obligation.
And that's fine, for you and yours. But please leave me out of it.

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post #13 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 7:29 pm
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Actually Pastor, the country was founded on freedom of religion, and separation of church and state. And I believe the reason that the Pilgrims left their homeland was to avoid persecution by a state-run religion.

Seems to me like that's what was being upheld by the Supreme Court. No one said that you can't pray, just that you can't institutionalize it in a secular setting. I don't go into church or Sunday School and tell you you're doing it wrong, so I'd simply appreciate the same consideration in the outside world.

And religion surely isn't the only source of corruption and killing; they've just had the most practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Most of you are making WAY too many GENERAL comments.
Agreed, on both sides. But then again, I didn't start this thread either.

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post #14 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 8:17 pm
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I'm not to sure about schools and religion. There's an Elementary school, Hoffman Elementary, right down FM306 that a church meets in on Sunday.

Out of curiosity, I called the school district headquarters, asked how much rent the church was paying (hey, I pay for that school, too), did they pay for utilities, could any church rent it, or for that matter, any religion (Wiccan?). I have, to this day, never gotten an answer.



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post #15 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 8:52 pm
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Hey Grif,

As per North Carolina (and I'm sure it's probably the same there) any civic group can rent the buildings when not in use by the school. You are correct, they are owned by the public and that is exactly why the public can rent them for gatherings. Not sure what the limitations are.

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post #16 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 9:06 pm
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Originally Posted by meese
Actually Pastor, the country was founded on freedom of religion, and separation of church and state. And I believe the reason that the Pilgrims left their homeland was to avoid persecution by a state-run religion.

Actually, you are incorrect again. The framers of the constituion never used the phrase "separation of Church and State" and knew nothing of it.

They said, and I qoute -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The restrictions of the First Amendment were placed squarely on the Government, not the church. I challenge you or anyone else to produce the phrase "separation of Church and State" from any framer of the constitution. It was developed eroneously by later persons.

The pilgrims definately were Christians (not athiests) who were denied the right to worship as they pleased in Europe, so they sailed here and developed a constitution that would prevent the government from infringing upon the church or "establishing" one church as a "state church" (which is exactly what had happened in Europe).

The First Ammendment said nothing about keeping God out of government...just keeping the Congress of the United States from "making any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof..." The First Amendment basically says, (paraphrased) "The Government shall not establish any one church as a state church and shall not tell the church what to do or not do."

There is NOTHING in that ammendment that places any burden on the church to stay out of government...period. Read it thoroughly...

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post #17 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 9:20 pm
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The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." [8]








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post #18 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 9:33 pm
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Again...I submit that this wall of separation was to protect the church from the state, not visa-versa. I do stand corrected that Jefferson did make the statement (as per wikipedia). Good research!

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post #19 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 9:38 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowofshoe
Just what is a "pulpet" is it the Altar where goats and such are sacrificed???
wait that would be pagan.
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post #20 of 125 Old Dec 29th, 2007, 9:41 pm
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Again...I submit that this wall of separation was to protect the church from the state, not visa-versa. I do stand corrected that Jefferson did make the statement (as per wikipedia). Good research!
I would say it was to protect the people from the church. Look at Europe and other places where the church runs/ran the govt., the people were told whatto believe on pain of death. Since the church was the govt. they had the power to enforce it.
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post #21 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 2:39 am
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Originally Posted by messenger13
I didn't see any threads trying to discredit the belief in Santa Claus. Why is that?!?! And I'm guessing that there will be the same lack during Easter. Not one, single thread slamming the Easter Bunny. What gives???
Joe,
You are not comparing similar characters. Unlike Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny our religious beliefs are not harmless. Historically, religious rhetoric has provided a platform for the justified mayhem that is inevitably wreaked by the believers. Thankfully, Santa and the Bunny have not yet been used as a reason to wage war.
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I would say it was to protect the people from the church. Look at Europe and other places where the church runs/ran the govt., the people were told what to believe on pain of death. Since the church was the govt. they had the power to enforce it.
Exactly. These things were put in place so one group doesn't gain total control and force their beliefs on the masses. You can believe whatever you wish, no matter how far-fetched or misguided, and so can I.

But forcing things like creationism into the schools, or challenging the pro choice / pro life argument based on purely religious grounds, or creating any other law that gives one set of beliefs priority or control over others is just plain wrong and should not be tolerated in a free society.

Let each of us decide for ourselves, and keep your gospel to yourselves, instead of incessantly spreading it like some rampant virus.

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post #23 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 6:20 am Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by meese
Let each of us decide for ourselves, and keep your gospel to yourselves, instead of incessantly spreading it like some rampant virus.
It never ceases to amaze me how you're the first person to put down those who name-call, or belittle one's opinion and/or beliefs. Yet, in this thread alone...you've managed to refer to my beliefs as "a rampant virus", "illogical and unreasonable", "some made-up idol", "a silly bedtime story", "hocus-pocus shows" . . . and the list goes ON & ON! You don't disbelieve in God, Ken. No sir...you hate Him. And anyone who has a mustard's seed worth of faith for Him. For that, I pity you and will pray for you. On my way to church today, in fact!


Now if y'all will excuse me, I have to get to church and have my money sucked out of this poor, misguided soul's bank account. And as for those poor people that we feed last week? . . . WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?!?! I feel so used all of a sudden. Hhhmmn...


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post #24 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 7:33 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Actually, you are incorrect again. The framers of the constituion never used the phrase "separation of Church and State" and knew nothing of it.

They said, and I qoute -- "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The restrictions of the First Amendment were placed squarely on the Government, not the church. I challenge you or anyone else to produce the phrase "separation of Church and State" from any framer of the constitution. It was developed eroneously by later persons.

The pilgrims definately were Christians (not athiests) who were denied the right to worship as they pleased in Europe, so they sailed here and developed a constitution that would prevent the government from infringing upon the church or "establishing" one church as a "state church" (which is exactly what had happened in Europe).

The First Ammendment said nothing about keeping God out of government...just keeping the Congress of the United States from "making any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof..." The First Amendment basically says, (paraphrased) "The Government shall not establish any one church as a state church and shall not tell the church what to do or not do."

There is NOTHING in that ammendment that places any burden on the church to stay out of government...period. Read it thoroughly...
The liberals love to misquote the Constitution. Pastor Jack, thanks for the post.

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post #25 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 7:39 am
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This used to be such a fun place to visit...

If there is one thing I've learned in my lifetime it is never to argue religion or politics with your friends. No one ever wins. Can't we all just agree that we disagree here, bury the hatchet and start discussing important things. Like motorcycles and riding them?

Things seem to be getting way too tense in here lately.

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post #26 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 8:31 am
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If there is one thing I've learned in my lifetime it is never to argue religion or politics with your friends. No one ever wins. Can't we all just agree that we disagree here, bury the hatchet and start discussing important things. Like motorcycles and riding them?

Things seem to be getting way too tense in here lately.
Yeppir, I can hardly wait for the elections to start.



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post #27 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 9:42 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbushey
If there is one thing I've learned in my lifetime it is never to argue religion or politics with your friends. No one ever wins. Can't we all just agree that we disagree here, bury the hatchet and start discussing important things. Like motorcycles and riding them?

Things seem to be getting way too tense in here lately.
You are correct, Dave, but fortunately only in a few threads: religion and politics. I think I'll stay out of these and stick to the forums which brought me here in the first place.

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post #28 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 10:05 am
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Yeppir, I can hardly wait for the elections to start.
LOL, but here is one thing: Since we JUST had this discussion, and it didn't go anywhere, I can't possibly see the that we have to continue another religious discussion.

So, keeping this in mind and not wanting to be accused of 'quelling the free flow of information' ALL religious and political threads will now be moved to the 'supporting members only' section.

Last edited by andy; Dec 30th, 2007 at 11:41 am. Reason: Typo
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post #29 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 10:39 am
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LOL, but here is one thing: Since we JUST had this discussion, and it didn't go anywhere, I can't possibly see the that we have to continue another religious discussion.

So, keeping this in mind and now wanting to be accused of 'quelling the free flow of information' ALL religious and political threads will now be moved to the 'supporting members only' section.
I strongly disagree with this approach as in my opinion that would do exactly what you say you are attempting to avoid. First, as a supporting member the last thing I want in that "exclusive" forum is a collection of threads and diatribes about topics that I don't care to read about or get involved in. I don't find it that useful now, and moving these conversations in there would make it even more useless. But hey, if I'm paying for it I'm damn well going to express my opinion about what goes in there! Also, since there isn't a requirement to pay to use the site this could be viewed as an exclusionary move to try and force people to pay to use the site, which I don't think is what we are about, and could cause a backlash that affects future membership and donations.

Also, this is the normal annual run of cabin fever; we get this every year. Folks always get into debates over subjects like this and many others, it runs through the winter, then once the spring thaw hits and everyone can get out and ride again it settles down. Just let the conversations run their course as we have for the most part since we started this site. If they degrade into personal attacks close the thread and chastise the participants, but otherwise let the folks run with it. Nobody is forcing anyone to read any of it.

OK, now everyone go to your corners, get out your copy of "Faster" or "The Doctor, The Tornado, and The Kentucky Kid" and watch a little motorcycling to calm down!

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post #30 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 11:22 am
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Also, this is the normal annual run of cabin fever; we get this every year.
Just because we have it every year doesn't make it any better. or in other words: Just because you have a skunk spraying your house every time it gets cold doesn't make the odor any better.

Now we have three choices:

a) Either just let it stink every time it happens (which besides stinking goes against our stated policies of divisive posts)
b) Delete/close the thread alltogether
c) move it into a special area where the folks if they really feel the need can discuss it, but that is not SO public that every guest see's the spats of the members.

Frankly I do not want it stinking every time something happens, so

a) is not an option. (Because many folks are simply tired of political and religious diatribes, left or right. Quite frankly I rather read about chemtrails and other interesting ideas than religion or politics. Now before you say "you are not required to read it, nobody is forcing you" While that argument is perfectly fine for any other member of the forum, admins, and forum moderators are supposed to read MOST of it in order to prevent worse, like personal attacks or personal spats from happening)
b) I know would immediately end in a couple members yelling that they have the right to express their opinion, and that this is censoring, and what not else.
c) move such threads to a forum that is not publicly accessible.

Since the supporting member forum is the only one in that category right now it would be the target. It has already been explained that this has nothing to do with exclusionary or any other chemtrail/alien abuduction like theory, but only due to the above mentioned. If you want you can see that as a step to allow folks that support the site to continue their useless discussions while others cannot. And yes, if they want to continue the political/religious discussions they might as well pay for that right since THAT bandwidth has NOTHING/ZERO/NADA/ZILCH to do with motorcycling or any BMW motorcycle for that matter.
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post #32 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 11:58 am
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I agree with Andy. Suppose there is a new guy looking around and he runs into this BS, gets offended and we lose someone like our new friend from Israel who has that trick GPS setup. We could lose knowledge, insight and some very kewl folks.

I say move it.



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He doesn't post for a while and then BAAAMMMMMM!!! A doosey!

Winter must be setting in O-Hi-O!

Love ya big guy!

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post #34 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 2:59 pm
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How about creating 2 new forums: Policitics, and Religion. Move related threads to the appropriate forum. I'm willing to bet they will be infrequently-visited... or perhaps simply ignored... by the majority if site users.

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post #35 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 3:21 pm
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All the mods and admins have discussed this option and came to the conclusion that this would not be in the best interest of the site, since it would attract the political and religious discussions. Therefore it was decided NOT to do that.

In addition we will from now on move those discussions into the supporting members forum, NOT because it is a good place to have them, but at least it does not attract and invite folks and the folks that DO want to have these discussions have at least helped to defray the costs of the bandwidth (as pointed out above)

Thanks for your input though.
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Well, I'd just a soon see them die before they ever get started.

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post #37 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 3:48 pm
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My .02 cents (that and another $4.98 and you can get a cup of coffee to mull this over): This is the BMW Luxury Touring list with the motto "Just Ride It" so, why are we even discussing religion or politics here? There are lots of lists out there to discuss these at length and your views would actually be welcome and less offensive (both sides of either). I invite you to take your beliefs and share them on those lists...PLEASE!!! I come here to read about riding BMW's and having fun. Now the occasional joke about either is great fun, but this group tends to take off and run with even those. I belong to a group of local HD riders and they ban any discussion of religion and politics on the list just to keep things social and fun. I say we do the same thing here. What does religion or politics have to do with riding and having fun? Does a liberal, Pro-Choice, religious zealot, who hates capital punishment ride any better than a conservative, pro-life, atheist, who is for the death penalty, or have better info on wrenching?

Why fight with a pig when it will only get you dirty?

I couldn't care less what you believe, or don't believe and I don't give a damn what your politics are, because your views are not going to change mine no matter how hard you try, or how ugly you get about it, so why loose friends, or like Grif said, new members over crap like this, when there is important stuff like oil and tires to talk about? Read the "Welcome" section on the Home Page.

Now...GO TO YOUR CORNERS AND STAY THERE!!!

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post #38 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 3:57 pm
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My .02 cents (that and another $4.98 and you can get a cup of coffee to mull this over)
You can buy me that cup of coffee at the NYD RTE. ?
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post #39 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 5:06 pm
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You can buy me that cup of coffee at the NYD RTE. ?
Well...that's a response...not exactly the one I was looking for, but at least it didn't have political or religious comments attached to it.

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post #40 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 5:16 pm
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Well...that's a response...not exactly the one I was looking for, ...
OK, I bite: WHAT were you looking for?
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post #41 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 5:51 pm
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I have to wonder what motivates Joe (Messenger13) to start this discussion here? There have to be better forums for this...
But it does make interesting reading while home with a nasty cold.

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post #42 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 8:09 pm
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I think it all started with an extremely divisive posting of a "Penn and Teller" rant on the Bible under the title "Don't Shoot The Messenger". (Not Joe)

My 11 year old daughter was in the room when I simply clicked on the link (not knowing what it was about) and I was blown-away by their use of God's name in vain, crude language, rudeness, lack of respect, etc, etc, etc. It was not what I expected from the good people I've met on this site. And let's be honest...to post it at Christmas...it really lacked class.

And Andy...I have a great time on this site...I love this site...and maybe these types of threads should be moved...but maybe, just maybe, you should address the person who made the first post and violated the policy you described earlier... i.e. -"our stated policies of divisive posts"

Anyway...for what it's worth...I haven't really been offended just really disappointed at the first rude and insensitive post and frankly, I've had some good discussion on the thread. I ain't skeered...that's for sure!

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post #43 of 125 Old Dec 30th, 2007, 8:47 pm
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Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
And Andy...I have a great time on this site...I love this site...and maybe these types of threads should be moved...but maybe, just maybe, you should address the person who made the first post and violated the policy you described earlier... i.e. -"our stated policies of divisive posts"
ALL and I mean ALL religious or political posts will be moved immediately as soon as one of the mods capable of doing see's them, or as soon as we are being made aware of it. Sometimes we have lives as well.

And frankly we don't care if it is about God, Allah, Yachwe, Budda, GWB or Hillary Clinton. For the sake of this policy they all share the same pot. (And I used them all in one sentence full knowing what I am doing). Please note that I am answering because I was talked to personally, not even caring in which thread this is.
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post #44 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 12:42 am
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Originally Posted by andy

...

a) is not an option. (Because many folks are simply tired of political and religious diatribes, left or right. Quite frankly I rather read about chemtrails and other interesting ideas than religion or politics. Now before you say "you are not required to read it, nobody is forcing you" While that argument is perfectly fine for any other member of the forum, admins, and forum moderators are supposed to read MOST of it in order to prevent worse, like personal attacks or personal spats from happening)

...
Regarding some of your comments in "a". Yes, as admins and moderators we do have to read and review all the posts on the site. That does not mean we are required to respond and/or engage, nor have an emotional reaction to them, just review them to insure they meet the site requirements. If they do, leave them alone. If they don't, close, pull, delete, ban or whatever action is appropriate. It's really that simple. If one of us can't do that portion of the job with that level of objectvity, then we either need to ask someone else to review the threads, or step down from that position of responsibility on the site. That doesn't mean we can't engage or even stir the pot from time to time, but if we do we cannot be the decision maker on if it meets the guidelines since we are now emotionally involved and engaged in the discussion. Moving threads around based on a subjective read of "it's religious" or "it's political" or any other criteria is going to be a large PITA, stir up more controversy, and ultimately be impossible to manage, not to mention make this place a helluva lot less fun and interesting that it is.


Quote:

...
Since the supporting member forum is the only one in that category right now it would be the target. It has already been explained that this has nothing to do with exclusionary or any other chemtrail/alien abuduction like theory, but only due to the above mentioned. If you want you can see that as a step to allow folks that support the site to continue their useless discussions while others cannot. And yes, if they want to continue the political/religious discussions they might as well pay for that right since THAT bandwidth has NOTHING/ZERO/NADA/ZILCH to do with motorcycling or any BMW motorcycle for that matter.
A couple of points on this comment.

First - I am a paying member of this community and since I am the target market for the "Supporting Members" forum, the absolute last thing I want in my exclusive forum is a dumping ground for a bunch of threads I don't give two shits about. Where is my value in that proposition? What makes this such a great, compelling and value added feature for my $10 a month when you plan to use it as a garbage heap?

Second - If that is the TRUE measure of what is useless and should be sequestered in a pay/subscription section of the website, then you had best find a way to move about 50% of the content and about 25% of the forums on this site into that wonderfully exclusive grouping. Let's start with Chit Chat, Humor and Photography and move out from there. Wow this is looking better and better all the time!!

OR

We could enforce the guidelines in place and just do our role as mods and admins. Wouldn't that be a little simpler?

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post #45 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 7:47 am
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[QUOTE=cccpastorjack]I think it all started with an extremely divisive posting of a "Penn and Teller" rant on the Bible under the title "Don't Shoot The Messenger". (Not Joe)

My 11 year old daughter was in the room when I simply clicked on the link (not knowing what it was about) and I was blown-away by their use of God's name in vain, crude language, rudeness, lack of respect, etc, etc, etc. It was not what I expected from the good people I've met on this site. And let's be honest...to post it at Christmas...it really lacked class.


You clicked on a Penn and Teller link and were offended? Have you ever heard of them? If not, please do not click on links with kids in the room without checking them out first. Maybe the OP could have posted "this my be offensive"

"This post my be offensive"

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post #46 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 8:39 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
I think it all started with an extremely divisive posting of a "Penn and Teller" rant on the Bible under the title "Don't Shoot The Messenger". (Not Joe)
This thread exists solely because one man felt the need to troll the board, to instigate more divisiveness, rather than contribute to what had been an intelligent, adult discussion. Joe could have posted his comments in the other thread, but that would not have given him the same personal exposure would it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
....maybe, just maybe, you should address the person who made the first post and violated the policy you described earlier... i.e. -"our stated policies of divisive posts"
By that same yardstick, every post praising Jesus name for whatever should suffer that same fate. They're just as offensive and insensitive to an atheist, or Muslim, or Jew, or Buddhist, as the Penn and Teller video should have been to you. You do believe that all Americans, and members here (apparently visitors are not ), are equal don't you?

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post #47 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 8:41 am
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Originally Posted by andy
For the sake of this policy they all share the same pot.
Huhhh...ah...huhhh...he said pot!



Everyone should just get get over themselves! Deep down, we're all just the same group of geeky guys wanting to ride a cool BMW motorcycle. Just like in high school, there is a heirachy in the geek squad and someone has to be the annoying one who likes to get everyone going on some new drama. Be it poltics or hating on LEOs or God.

Give it a rest and let's get back to riding.

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post #48 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 8:42 am
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I had heard of them, but never listened to one of their segments. Again, I just didn't expect to find that kind of vulgar, blatant slam on Christianity on this website.

There are many of us on here who love Christ...with all our hearts...we are good people...honest people, trying to serve others with our entire lives and make a positive difference in this world. It has been extremely disappointing to be called every name under the book and belitted on this site by several who ought to know better. PREJUDICE comes in many packages and forms.

And...if you go back and read the first few posts on the original thread...you will see that the intent was solely to poke a jab at Christians during the holidays. Read those posts...click on the links...be objective and you will see how it was anything but what friends would do to each other. Just plain classless.

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post #49 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 8:54 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoog62
By that same yardstick, every post praising Jesus name for whatever should suffer that same fate. They're just as offensive and insensitive to an atheist, or Muslim, or Jew, or Buddhist, as the Penn and Teller video should have been to you. You do believe that all Americans, and members here (apparently visitors are not ), are equal don't you?

Yea Dave, I do believe that every American and member on this site is equal.

I also believe that mature Americans and members should not be as offended by a post "praising Jesus for whatever" as they would by a post that tried to make athiests look like morons and slamming them with cursing and very biased lies presented as facts.

Here's all I'm saying... I like everyone on this site. I thought I was a friend and even though I am a active pastor I have intentionally tried not to be overly religious on this site. Out of respect. I just felt like real friends had stabbed me in the back, that's all. It was just downright disrespectful..not something I would do to you...at all.

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post #50 of 125 Old Dec 31st, 2007, 10:07 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
.... slamming them with ... very biased lies presented as facts.
Jack that is exactly how Christian retorict can come across to non-Christians.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Here's all I'm saying... I like everyone on this site. I thought I was a friend and even though I am a active pastor I have intentionally tried not to be overly religious on this site. Out of respect. I just felt like real friends had stabbed me in the back, that's all. It was just downright disrespectful..not something I would do to you...at all.
Nor is it something I would do to you, or any of the other openly Christian members whom I respect on this board. I do however, completely understand if someone has a lack of concern for offending a group that, by design, looks down on them. I personally won't bash someone for their religion, as I don't want them bashing me for my beliefs/doubts (stated in a response to you in the other thread) on how we got here. That goes for my skin color, the beer I drink, the bike I ride, the car I drive...etc, etc. Respect is a two way street.

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