New rules for classified posting? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 6:54 am Thread Starter
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New rules for classified posting?

I'm not real crazy about the classified posting rules being changed and fully moderated.

1. If you know an item someone is selling has a problem, you can't list it

2. Not all questions about price should be out of bounds.
Example @10,500 CD, I would be very interested in bike from a Canadian buyer, not so at 10,500 US, which currency not listed by the buyer.

3. It has become the perfect place for some to snipe hunt the list, before others have a chance to view items.
Rock

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post #2 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 8:55 am
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Hey Rock ,when did this change happen,did I miss a sticky?

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post #3 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 9:37 am
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We used to have the Classifieds moderated before. Management has decided to go back to moderation in order to cut back on people joining to specifically sell stuff. That is, they are not contributing members of this forum (we don't mean financially - although $ contributions are always welcome).

There will be no sniping. The mods and admins are above that kind of shennanigans. Trust me. When previously moderated, there were a lot of items that could have been sniped but were not.

If sniping occurs, rest assured that the individual sniping will most probably be banned.



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post #4 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 9:50 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
3. It has become the perfect place for some to snipe hunt the list, before others have a chance to view items.
Rock
You read too many spy novels.

(Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you) LOL

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post #5 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 10:00 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaffyK
Management has decided to go back to moderation in order to cut back on people joining to specifically sell stuff. That is, they are not contributing members of this forum (we don't mean financially - although $ contributions are always welcome)
What's wrong with that? People join forums for all sorts of reasons. What about all the newbies who join and post an "my bike has a problem" thread, only to never be heard from again?

Classifieds help the buyers as well as the seller. Why not give our members access to sellers regardless of why they joined the site? If somebody does register and sell something, then they've had a positive experience with the site and may return to be a productive member. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is.

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post #6 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 10:10 am
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Originally Posted by kdog
What's wrong with that? People join forums for all sorts of reasons. What about all the newbies who join and post an "my bike has a problem" thread, only to never be heard from again?
Whats wrong with that? Quite simple.

Lately we a had a number of commercial entities siging up for the sole purpose to sell their wares. While again we do allow for that to happen in their special forums, the classifieds are from member to member and are free for the members to use.

Now commercial entities are a different thing. Commercial members are not here because they like to participate, but because they want to make money. While I find nothing wrong personally in making money there certainly is something wrong in trying to make money, hiding behind a 'standard' member surface, looking to the general populus as if they were private persons selling, and using someone elses resources where there is a clear policy against exactly that behavior. Every commercial vendor has the right and ability to sign up for a commercial vendor section on the site. Within their own section they can post stuff for sale, just like other vendors on the site already do. Some chose to try to get around that and basically that triggered the recent move.

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post #7 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 11:16 am
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I'm glad you guys are doing this! There have been a lot of recent members joining where their 1st post is to sell something. Seller may even state "I'm going to put it on ebay.." like they are doing the members here a favor. BFD!

Good work!!

Ted

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post #8 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 11:23 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
What's wrong with that? People join forums for all sorts of reasons. What about all the newbies who join and post an "my bike has a problem" thread, only to never be heard from again?

Classifieds help the buyers as well as the seller. Why not give our members access to sellers regardless of why they joined the site? If somebody does register and sell something, then they've had a positive experience with the site and may return to be a productive member. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is.

-joel
Joel ,I see Andys point on commercial entities. Some guys first post yesterday was not "Hi how are ya doin" but a flat out car insurance commercial for some company here in LA. It looks like they pulled him rather quickly. I have no products that are particulary suited for the finishes on the BMW bikes but have had a lot of hits on my web sites and sales from forum members for boat and car applications they had. I gladly pay the vendor rates to help keep the site up(I think I am due for a renewal soon). I have saved ten times that amount just on taking the advice of you members on gear purchases,maintenance and tires etc. I agree with your point on the for sale by owner stuff that is a one one time thing. As long as a member here has an opportunity to have access to a bike or an accessory there is a benefit to this site. The guys that just spam products can pound sand.

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post #9 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 4:31 pm
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Commercial advertisements? That's a different story. Of course those should be deleted immediately. I was talking about a newbie who signed up to sell a bike, for example.

Cheers,
-joel
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post #10 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 5:05 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
I was talking about a newbie who signed up to sell a bike, for example. l
Isn't that what ebay and Cycle Trader are for?

What's nice about keeping the classifieds for established members is that it provides the other members some "confidence" when buying from a member of the community. Not that there is any absolute guaranty, but there is probably less chance of getting hoodwinked by a contributing member.

Ted

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post #11 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 9:15 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
You read too many spy novels.

(Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you) LOL
Yeah your right, that guys bike was probally not worth buying , screw em
Rock

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post #12 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 10:25 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
Commercial advertisements? That's a different story. Of course those should be deleted immediately. I was talking about a newbie who signed up to sell a bike, for example.

Cheers,
-joel

heck, I don't know about that...I'd never SELL my bike on this site because all of you on here know WAYYYYYY too much and I'd lose my ass...BUT if I were going to buy another LT, I'd want to buy from the classifieds section on here because it's gonna' be listed a helluva' lot cheaper than ebay or cycletrader, and I'll have a decent shot at knowing the seller or someone near him or her to look at it for me.

Unless it's someone who is running a commercial business who isn't willing to shell out the, what, $200 or so to become a vendor, then I say let anyone who wants to post on classifieds, first time post or not.

But what the hell do I know.

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post #13 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 10:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
Commercial advertisements? That's a different story. Of course those should be deleted immediately. I was talking about a newbie who signed up to sell a bike, for example.

Cheers,
-joel
Joel;

We were not so much working on commercial advertisements as we were trying to come up with a policy for people who sign up just to sell items. We have had several folks who join this site as well as several other sites, listing a bike on each one of them as well as listing it on Ebay. The people doing this are rather stealthy and you frequently do not know that they are in the business of buying and selling bikes. The moderators of our classified forum had a little heartburn with that. While we discussed the value of to our members of allowing anyone to post a classified, giving our members more choices. We also discussed how a glut of ads from non participants could dilute the value of classifieds to our actual contributors. If there are 30 bikes on our forums from people who are involved in bike sales for profit, our one member who might want exposure for his bike might be lost in the sea of others. The policy that the moderators came up with was the best balance between those two goals that they could come up with.

We certainly are willing to hear alternative suggestions if you or anyone else has them.

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post #14 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 10:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
Whats wrong with that? Quite simple.

Lately we a had a number of commercial entities siging up for the sole purpose to sell their wares. While again we do allow for that to happen in their special forums, the classifieds are from member to member and are free for the members to use.

Now commercial entities are a different thing. Commercial members are not here because they like to participate, but because they want to make money. While I find nothing wrong personally in making money there certainly is something wrong in trying to make money, hiding behind a 'standard' member surface, looking to the general populus as if they were private persons selling, and using someone elses resources where there is a clear policy against exactly that behavior. Every commercial vendor has the right and ability to sign up for a commercial vendor section on the site. Within their own section they can post stuff for sale, just like other vendors on the site already do. Some chose to try to get around that and basically that triggered the recent move.
I understand your point, but this seems to be a case of creating a policy because of a few "problem" members, creating a negative impact on the majority because of a handful of offenders. If you're going to moderate the listings, why not just let all post be published and have the moderators pull the ones that are out of bounds?

Rather than having to approve each listing being posted, you just have to delete the "bad" ones. I have no numbers to substantiate this, but I would imagine that the VAST majority of posts are legitimate posts from legitimate users. Perhaps you can share some numbers to help us understand just how serious this problem is and negatively it is impacting our community?

I ask that the powers that be (and just who is that, anyway?) reconsider what appears to be an extreme move with adverse impact on the majority. It also causes more work for the moderators, and suppresses our ability to freely post, if I understand this correctly. Are we not smart enough to ignore obvious spam messages from new accounts set up just for that purpose. Can these messages not just be deleted? If the moderator can view the messages before they are approved for posting, what's the difference in a moderator pulling a post after it is put up?

Seems to me like much ado about nothing, but I may have just missed the memo.

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
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post #15 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 11:28 pm
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Originally Posted by deputy5211
I ask that the powers that be (and just who is that, anyway?) reconsider what appears to be an extreme move with adverse impact on the majority. It also causes more work for the moderators, and suppresses our ability to freely post, if I understand this correctly. Are we not smart enough to ignore obvious spam messages from new accounts set up just for that purpose. Can these messages not just be deleted? If the moderator can view the messages before they are approved for posting, what's the difference in a moderator pulling a post after it is put up?

Seems to me like much ado about nothing, but I may have just missed the memo.
The powers that be..

That would be the four Administrators:
  • Randy
  • Andy
  • ElJeffe
  • DaveDragon
I am the managing Administrator, but all four of us share the top level management of this site.

The next 'powers that be' are the Moderators. There are many Moderators having one or more forums they are responsible for. You can see the Moderators for any particular forum by looking at the bottom of that forum's index page.

In the case of the new classified advertising policy, it was discussed and created by the Moderators of that forum, with approval by Administrators. They believe that it will be far easier for them to manage by moderating each ad. If it is too much work for the Moderators, it is their own fault I am at a loss as to how this policy could be 'an extreme move with adverse impact on the majority'. Any ad that one of our members wishes to place will be approved and published as long as it is within the guidelines stated for this site and that forum. It will not be up instantaneously, but it will be up.

Randy Prade
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post #16 of 22 Old Sep 13th, 2007, 11:40 pm
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Originally Posted by Randy
It will not be up instantaneously, but it will be up.
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post #17 of 22 Old Sep 14th, 2007, 12:04 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
The powers that be..

That would be the four Administrators:
  • Randy
  • Andy
  • ElJeffe
  • DaveDragon
I am the managing Administrator, but all four of us share the top level management of this site.

The next 'powers that be' are the Moderators. There are many Moderators having one or more forums they are responsible for. You can see the Moderators for any particular forum by looking at the bottom of that forum's index page.

In the case of the new classified advertising policy, it was discussed and created by the Moderators of that forum, with approval by Administrators. They believe that it will be far easier for them to manage by moderating each ad. If it is too much work for the Moderators, it is their own fault I am at a loss as to how this policy could be 'an extreme move with adverse impact on the majority'. Any ad that one of our members wishes to place will be approved and published as long as it is within the guidelines stated for this site and that forum. It will not be up instantaneously, but it will be up.
Thank you for your response, Randy, and for clarifying the structure. The ownership, structure, and administration of this site seemed to be a "black box" to me, and I have often wondered who was who and how they got to be who, where the money went, whether this was a for profit or a labor of love, so to speak. None of that changes the incredible value of being a member, these are just things I wondered about and did not find answers to. No doubt the information is posted somewhere, I just didn't come across it. Maybe I didn't look hard enough.

I fail to see the logic supporting the perception that it would be easier to approve every post rather than delete a few, but if the powers that be have made the decision for us all, then so be it.

As for my comment about this being an "extreme move with adverse impact on the majority," it seems obvious to me (obviously). The extreme move is that the policy has changed in that members' posts are now scrutinized before being posted, without the opportunity for comment from the members who support this site.

The adverse affect on the general membership is the seeming potential for censorship. While this is a public/private forum and perhaps free speech rights don't attach because of some clause in the site's terms of use, it still chafes me that the prompt posting of listings by bona-fide members may be delayed or blocked without due process just because some folks have "abused" the service. I believe that there is an advantage to posting a listing when you want to rather than when a moderator gets the opportunity to read it, analyze it, and decide whether to permit it or not.

I don't like the spammers and scammers any more than the next person, and I support the effort to do something about it. I have little doubt that the moderators, administrators, and ownership have the best of intentions in making this decision, but as I have heard said somewhere, sometime: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Again, just my observations and perspectives. From individual offline dealings with you, Andy, and Jeff, I know that you are all persons of integrity, and this post is by no means is an attack on you or the rest of the crew that keeps this place moving. This board and the community involved is a fine bunch of people with a common bond and I am grateful for the opportunity for all of us to be brought together. If we are a community, however, should we not have community input on such matters? I am not suggesting that we be ruled by committee, popular vote, or even an electoral college system, but it would be nice if there was some public discussion before such changes were imposed upon us. Like Dennis Miller says, that's just my opinion folks, and I could be wrong (and I frequently am).

Thank you.

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
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If you want to be happy for a lifetime, ride a motorcycle.

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post #18 of 22 Old Sep 14th, 2007, 5:28 am
 
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Originally Posted by Ted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
The powers that be..

That would be the four Administrators:
  • Randy
  • Andy
  • ElJeffe
  • DaveDragon
AKA:
  • The good
  • The bad
  • The ugly
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post #19 of 22 Old Sep 14th, 2007, 8:19 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
I am at a loss as to how this policy could be 'an extreme move with adverse impact on the majority'. Any ad that one of our members wishes to place will be approved and published as long as it is within the guidelines stated for this site and that forum. It will not be up instantaneously, but it will be up.
Well I posted a question up about a bike for sale, more than 24 hours ago, the thing came thru in the classifieds up date (the bike not my post). So while it may not affect the maj. it has quashed this sale (at least to me), for one member.
You guys do an amazing job with this site, no question there. I'm sure it is a task I would not be able to handle without serious training. (Picture a Chimp bangin on the Bongo's )
Rock

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post #20 of 22 Old Sep 14th, 2007, 8:48 am
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Originally Posted by UncleRock
Well I posted a question up about a bike for sale, more than 24 hours ago, the thing came thru in the classifieds up date (the bike not my post). So while it may not affect the maj. it has quashed this sale (at least to me), for one member.
You guys do an amazing job with this site, no question there. I'm sure it is a task I would not be able to handle without serious training. (Picture a Chimp bangin on the Bongo's )
Rock
I made a change late last night that should alleviate that situation. The threads are now moderated, but posts are not. That means that an ad still needs to be approved before it is listed, but the replies are not moderated.

With regards to communicating with a seller who has an ad in our classifieds, I would always recommend that you ask questions by PM or email, if provided. A question about an item posted as a reply to an ad 'thread' may not get to the seller as quickly as a PM or an email. PMs trigger a reminder at the top of the forum pages when a user logs in as well as generating an email reminder, unless the member has disabled that feature.

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post #21 of 22 Old Sep 16th, 2007, 5:43 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog
Commercial advertisements? That's a different story. Of course those should be deleted immediately. I was talking about a newbie who signed up to sell a bike, for example.

Cheers,
-joel

I would think this applies to the type of people who join just to sell, and don't even bother putting info in their profile. I personally am very leary of a seller with no info, 2 or 3 posts and a "great" price. I feel I would have some type of recourse with a regular member, we could pm, talk, work out the issue. Where a "seller only" will just disappear....

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post #22 of 22 Old Sep 16th, 2007, 6:09 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
I made a change late last night that should alleviate that situation. The threads are now moderated, but posts are not. That means that an ad still needs to be approved before it is listed, but the replies are not moderated.

With regards to communicating with a seller who has an ad in our classifieds, I would always recommend that you ask questions by PM or email, if provided. A question about an item posted as a reply to an ad 'thread' may not get to the seller as quickly as a PM or an email. PMs trigger a reminder at the top of the forum pages when a user logs in as well as generating an email reminder, unless the member has disabled that feature.
This compromise appears workable, although I still prefer to have new threads able to be posted immediately and the non-conforming ones deleted.

Antony (Tripod)
Dallas' Northern Suburbs
-----------------------------------------------

If you want to be happy for a day, drink.
If you want to be happy for a year, marry.
If you want to be happy for a lifetime, ride a motorcycle.

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'05 K1200LT - Dark Graphite - RIP 04 OCT 2015
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