Why are we still there? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 3:15 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
zaphod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Posts: 654
Why are we still there?

Iraqi prime minister says U.S. troops can go 'anytime they want'

If they don't need us, why are we arguing if we should “stay the course” or pull out now?

I can’t believe this news hasn’t gotten more coverage.

Malcolm McGee
Little Rock, AR
'00 K1200LTC Canyon Red
'09 Kawasaki KLR 650
'96 Bunkhouse
IBA #24557
BMWMOA #117769


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zaphod is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 5:31 pm
Senior Member
 
gunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kings Mountain, NC, USA
Posts: 3,089
I'd be on my way home.

Fill in the slit trench, roll up my sleeping bad, strike my tent, get in formation and head towards the house.

Heard in the news where they said it wasn't translated properly or he was mis-quoted.

Hate it, all those lives lost to help that country. Seems that life has a different meaning or value to those folks than it has to us.

B D R
gunny is offline  
post #3 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 6:31 pm
Senior Member
 
pkpr1998's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ringgold, GA, USA
Posts: 3,702
Ok, I'm going to throw a fly into the ointment!

Have you forgotten 9/11???????

Some have!

Brett
2003 K1200LTC SOLD
2013 K1600GTL SOLD
2018 K1600GA SOLD
2019 K1600GA Blue

North Georgia

2005 CCR-Tetons
2006 CCR-Braselton
2008 CCR-Midway
2009 CCR-Rapid City
2011 CCR-Boise
2012 CCR-Duluth
2014 CCR-Chattanooga
2015 CCR-Coeur d 'Alene


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pkpr1998 is offline  
 
post #4 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 6:34 pm
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkpr1998
Ok, I'm going to throw a fly into the ointment!

Have you forgotten 9/11???????

Some have!
No matter how much the evidence refutes it, there are those who will believe forever that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. People believe what they want to believe.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #5 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 7:10 pm
Senior Member
 
UncleRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Alexandria, PA, USA
Posts: 1,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkpr1998
Ok, I'm going to throw a fly into the ointment!

Have you forgotten 9/11???????

Some have!
Ah they were Saudi's you know Bush family friends. At least 17 of them.
Rock

I'll will poisons the soul
Living well is the best revenge
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rock

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
UncleRock is offline  
post #6 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 8:57 pm
Senior Member
 
gunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kings Mountain, NC, USA
Posts: 3,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkpr1998
Ok, I'm going to throw a fly into the ointment!

Have you forgotten 9/11???????

Some have!
I forgot, what did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

B D R
gunny is offline  
post #7 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 9:36 pm
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 178
I do believe that if we had focused our efforts on Afghanistan, which was where Bin Laden and his terrorist network was training and operating, that Al-Queda would not be even stronger now.

We got distracted from our mission...terrorists and now will probably have a bigger, longer fight on our hands.

Just my thoughts.

Keith
DaddyDukes is offline  
post #8 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 10:04 pm
Senior Member
 
KMC1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SLC, UT, United States Of America
Posts: 2,337
It's hard to believe in most of our lifetimes, we're witness to TWO Vietnams.
You're not going to win a theocratic war, doesn't matter what period of History you look at, never happened, never will.

R1200GSA Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to Alaska I go!
(Down to ONE BIKE - ARGH!)
KMC1 is offline  
post #9 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 10:25 pm
Senior Member
 
RVB1019's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Long Island , NY, USA
Posts: 1,733
Garage
Duh! We're not out of Iraq because Pres. Georgie is still looking for Bin Laden who was in Afganistan but is now in the backwoods of Pakistan! Get it Now?

That, and according to that "Commie" Michael Moore, Pres. Georgie and his friend Little Dickie are still lining their pockets with sweet gov't non competitive contracts to rebuild Iraq.

Seriously, has anyone caught the new HBO special on Iraq titled Ghosts of Abu Ghraib? It deals with a bunch of shady deals private corporate contactors have done in the name of national security. This includes hiring interpreters who work with our troops to translate with the Iraq citizens. These translators have no background checks and barely speak either Farsi, English and whatever other language they speak in the desert. All the while these companies (I think one was called Titian) bill our government for BILLIONS.

That "Commie" might have been on to something in that Fahrenheit 9/11. Yes it was one sided but where there is smoke, there's fire. That's good enough for President Georgie to order an ill planned, ill equipped invasion of Iraq in the first place!

As someone who lost friends and neighbors in 9/11, I was in favor of invading Afganistan to get Al Quida. I was even in favor of going after Saddam for having WMDs.

Folks, we were lied to by Georgie! He and his cronies are making billions while our troops (and some of my former students) are coming home in missing limbs and psych. damaged or not coming home at all.

If Iraq states that they can do it on their own, then BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!

Rob V.B.
2015 Triumph Explorer 1200
2007 BMW GT (SOLD)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2003 BMW LT (SOLD)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2002 BMW R1150 traded for 2002 Yamaha FZ1 traded for a 2003 GSXR 750

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
RVB1019 is offline  
post #10 of 34 Old Jul 16th, 2007, 11:49 pm
IBR# 366
 
meese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 16,465
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunny
I forgot, what did Iraq have to do with 9/11?
Nothing at all. Brett, put the pot and the stirrer down and back away slowly . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVB1019
Folks, we were lied to by Georgie! He and his cronies are making billions while our troops (and some of my former students) are coming home in missing limbs and psych. damaged or not coming home at all.
Many of us figured that out well before the last elections. Apparently, not quite enough though. 2008 will sure be different.

BTW, exactly what branch of the government is Cheney in again? I forget, but apparently so does he.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
meese is offline  
post #11 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 12:04 am
Senior Member
 
Zotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Casper, WY, USA
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
No matter how much the evidence refutes it, there are those who will believe forever that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. People believe what they want to believe.
And no matter how many times this thing is explained, folks continue to assume this is a nation state based conflict.

Pick a country, any country - name it. That name has no meaning in any of this. It's a conflict of ideaology, maybe even cultures. Kind of like two ant species in a small yard. They do not co-habitate. One obliterates or subjugates the other, takes their young and makes them their own.

Messy, ain't it.

Now, where do you wanna wallow in that mess. Cuz, eventually, you'll have not choice but to wallow in - somewhere. It sure isn't going away on it's own.

Tate

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02 Mauve - my 'Light Truck'
Wyoming Immigration Officer, Cyberhiway tour guide and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zotter is offline  
post #12 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 3:33 am
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
And no matter how many times this thing is explained, folks continue to assume this is a nation state based conflict.

Pick a country, any country - name it. That name has no meaning in any of this. It's a conflict of ideaology, maybe even cultures. Kind of like two ant species in a small yard. They do not co-habitate. One obliterates or subjugates the other, takes their young and makes them their own.
This is both a battle of nation states and a battle of ideologies. Our foreign policy has been oppressive to many in the middle east, and other countries. Of course we're despised for that. We support an abusive regime in Saudi Arabia. We gave Hussein his military, which he used against competing factions in Iraq when the Iran/Iraq war ended. We've supported a lot of killing and abuse. What a shock some people hate us.

Ron Paul is the only candidate that acknowledges that 9/11 was blowback for our continued interference in the middle east. We have no business trying to manipulate other people's affairs. We can barely manage our own. When we do, we make some friends, and we make some enemies.

Once the shooting starts, its justified with religion. Gasp! Haven't seen that one before. I think God was on our side on WWII. Of course, he was on the German's side too. How about the crusades? God picked 2 sides in those battles too. Wars just seem to be entertainment to God.

Clearly, people use religion to their own ends. People claim "this time it's different", as always, but it's just more of the same. A war starts, religion is used as a selling point, some people buy into it. History is full of these examples.

We're not innocent in all of this. If you think 9/11 just happened out of the blue, you need to stop relying on what's essentially government media for your news.

What can we do about it now? We've already made lots of enemies. Fixing our foreign policy will not right all wrongs. That is a complicated question without a simple answer. But to ignore the real reasons why we're in this endless war will not help anything.

As long as people want to attack us, there will be successful attacks. No police state is so tight to prevent everything. 9/12 is coming, unless we can find a way to get people to stop wanting to kill us. Stopping our own killing and getting out of other nation's business is a step in the right direction, not to mention that it would save us a ton of taxpayer money. Let's actually defend our country, instead of trying to create a new one.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #13 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 8:47 am
Senior Member
 
KMC1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SLC, UT, United States Of America
Posts: 2,337
Couldn't have said it any better Bob!

R1200GSA Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to Alaska I go!
(Down to ONE BIKE - ARGH!)
KMC1 is offline  
post #14 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 8:58 am
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambria Hgts., New York, USA
Posts: 91
Plain and simple Bob! Well said.

"Smitty"
'07 GT CGM
oldschool78 is offline  
post #15 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 11:53 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Cardiff, CA, USA
Posts: 202
Bring the troops home, have them a parade and call it a day

In the meantime, from AP:

"The terrorist network Al-Qaida will likely leverage its contacts and capabilities in Iraq to mount an attack on U.S. soil, according to a new National Intelligence Estimate on threats to the American homeland."

I guess the new plan is: "we were fighting them there so we can fight them here".

Rich S~

'06 Ocean Blue Metallic LT (mine)
'15 Grey 328d (ours)
RT_COOP is offline  
post #16 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 12:11 pm
Senior Member
 
KMC1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SLC, UT, United States Of America
Posts: 2,337
Don't forget there are other aspects here too. If the Government can keep us focused on the boogey man, all the easier to pass more restrictive laws, take away more privacy, and allocate more tax money to pet projects. Not to mention the ability to keep people from worrying about real threats, like the impending financial meltdown of this country, quality of life here, healthcare, natural resources, air quality or any of a hundred other things that are not being addressed.

BOO!

R1200GSA Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to Alaska I go!
(Down to ONE BIKE - ARGH!)
KMC1 is offline  
post #17 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 12:52 pm
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
Don't forget there are other aspects here too. If the Government can keep us focused on the boogey man, all the easier to pass more restrictive laws, take away more privacy, and allocate more tax money to pet projects. Not to mention the ability to keep people from worrying about real threats, like the impending financial meltdown of this country, quality of life here, healthcare, natural resources, air quality or any of a hundred other things that are not being addressed.

BOO!
Here, here. There are terrorist cells everywhere, and illegal aliens, and people who just don't love the flag enough. It's their fault, not ours. Ignore the man behind the curtain.

If the knee-jerk, "sign anything put in front of me" reaction of congress to 9/11 was bad, wait until the next one. Will the government say
"well, I guess we did a bad job and those billions we spent and all that spying wasn't effective",
or will they say
"look, we need more money, and more spying, and road stops throughout the country (which won't catch any terrorists, but will do a good job of catching people with pot, weapons and, in Chicago, smuggling trans fats), etc., etc.".
Capitalize on every opportunity to invoke fear and control the people. Fear is the most useful of emotions.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #18 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 2:58 pm
Senior Member
 
tkramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Now, where do you wanna wallow in that mess. Cuz, eventually, you'll have not choice but to wallow in - somewhere. It sure isn't going away on it's own.
In that case, why didn't we just invade Mexico and "fight 'em there, so's we don't gotta fight 'em here" ? It'd be a lot cheaper and we could train the Mexican peasants to be security forces. I guarantee insurgents and guerillas would show up for the party no matter what turd-world dust midden we marched into.

Speaking seriously though, Iraq has been the biggest foreign policy blunder of the last half century. Bigger than 'Nam, in my opinion. Meanwhile the real enemy regroups for the past five years in Pakistan and probably doesn't give two shits what goes on in Iraq, as long as it keeps the USA busy and we leave them alone to rehearse their next production of Masterpiece Terrorist Theater. The current administration and its power-addict enablers in congress (on both sides of the aisle) should be sent off to Gitmo with nothing but a towel, a trowel and an English translation copy of the Koran. Hmmmm, I did start this paragraph with "speaking seriously", didn't I.

-----------------------------------------

The word motorcycle is a verb.

2005 K1200LT "Rolf"
2007 Moto Guzzi Norge
tkramer is offline  
post #19 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 3:08 pm
Senior Member
 
Zotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Casper, WY, USA
Posts: 1,742
Bob, that's the rational I don't buy. I'm almost to the point of thinking there are two separate issues here. And many are using one to erroneously explain the other. There may be connections - but I don't think there're causes.

What is the national guilt that assumes the US is the bad guy? It's still amazing to me that folks are ashamed of US being successful. And under the guise of 'compassion'. That somehow the US is inherently evil - simply by existing. Wait now - who is it that thinks that?

Part of the task of any government is to protect the security of it's people. Not make the world a better place for everyone else. Too bad, so sad - we've the resources, you don't. That does NOT obligate us to give them away just cuz it's a 'nice' thing to do. Supporting Hussein, militarizing other countries - that wasn't done to make things 'better' for them. It was done to make things better for us. Simple as that. Unless and until the grand unified world government comes to power and can make everyone play nice - that's the way it is. Putting the US in the role of the great den mother is just as dangerous as putting your head in the sand and pretending there's no one else out there.

I honestly don't think this conflict is a 'Get the US for pissing on us' deal. Regardless of the religious justifications. It IS a conflict motivated by Religion. The extremists honestly feel it's their obligation and duty to destroy what's different. Anything that's 'Them' in their viewpoint - should not be allowed to exist. It's to their own glory to destroy 'Them'.

Civilized countries and people use things called government and economy to influence others towards their own goals. Success is variable and if you don't get your way, you go on and either work harder within the systems to change it or you get over it. Part of a government's duty is to protect itself and it's people from those who don't play by the rules.

Sending folks with bombs strapped to their backs into public places simply to kill 'them' is not the action of a disgruntled national. That's not the behavior of a hero. It is the behavior of absolute intolerance. A senseless act of violence justified by a belief in personal gain.

Tate

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02 Mauve - my 'Light Truck'
Wyoming Immigration Officer, Cyberhiway tour guide and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zotter is offline  
post #20 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 3:09 pm
Senior Member
 
Zotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Casper, WY, USA
Posts: 1,742
Kramer - Mmm. Yup - I think you've got it.

Tate

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02 Mauve - my 'Light Truck'
Wyoming Immigration Officer, Cyberhiway tour guide and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zotter is offline  
post #21 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 3:59 pm
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 713
Zotter,,,,, You seem to be the only one who really gets it....
People are trying so hard to make Americans feel guilty, and blaming everything on Bush.....

Sorry to say but I think idiots like that city councilman in San Francisco who wants to do away with the military and just let the police defend our borders are taking over....

We have been attacked over and over and nobody gets it!!! It started October 23 1983 in Beirut when 241 of my brothers died,, following orders I might add to be visible to the public and show we cared......... Well Fu
Keep your powder dry Zotter, these enlightened people on here will be the easy targets when it gets here.......

We either fight them there or we "WILL" fight them here.......I'm through with these type of posts,, they make me want to puke............

"Whats Iraq got to do with 9/11?" Is the stupidest thing I've ever heard a human speak............Gone
petepeterson is offline  
post #22 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 4:26 pm
Senior Member
 
Zotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Casper, WY, USA
Posts: 1,742
So long as we all remember that those of us on this side of our boarders - no matter what our opinions - are all on the same team.

Letting ourselves be divided, separated from ourselves. That's as big if not a bigger risk to the future of our country as anything else. Sure, we can have different opinions - we'd damn well better! Just lets not make any of us a 'them'. Makes it too easy for 'Them' to kick our collective back sides.

Tate

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02 Mauve - my 'Light Truck'
Wyoming Immigration Officer, Cyberhiway tour guide and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zotter is offline  
post #23 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 4:33 pm
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Warning. This got very long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
What is the national guilt that assumes the US is the bad guy? It's still amazing to me that folks are ashamed of US being successful. And under the guise of 'compassion'. That somehow the US is inherently evil - simply by existing. Wait now - who is it that thinks that?
Not me Tate. The US is maybe the best country in the world, overall. But its one of the worst when it comes to foreign policy today, and it's getting worse in other facets. I don't know why we had that revolutionary war way back when just to become like England on our own. What was the point?

Other countries, if they had the resources, would do the same, as history shows. That doesn't make it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Part of the task of any government is to protect the security of it's people. Not make the world a better place for everyone else. Too bad, so sad - we've the resources, you don't. That does NOT obligate us to give them away just cuz it's a 'nice' thing to do.
I've never promoted sending our resources overseas to help others. The government should not do that, ever. It's not their money, it's ours. They do not have the right to forcibly take my money and give it to some cause I don't support. That's a personal choice. If people want to give foreign aid to Israel, or assistance for a tsunami or an earthquake, then let them do it. But not the government. They should not be giving away what belongs to someone else. It's not their proper role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Supporting Hussein, militarizing other countries - that wasn't done to make things 'better' for them. It was done to make things better for us. Simple as that.
No doubt, and see how well that turned out.

We may just have a basic philosophy difference here. It sounds like what you're advocating is "might makes right". We thought it was in our best interests to militarize Iraq, so then it's okay. Whatever works for us, whether it's driven by security concerns, profit, imposing social values or for political gain, it's okay. If that's your approach, we shouldn't cry foul when someone is able to "land a punch" back at us.

I find this premise immoral. It's simply continuing the history of violence that seems to define our race. Maybe we're simply wired for this and can do no better.

I believe that we are one nation among many, and we should treat all people and countries with respect. We don't have to like them, or trade with them (but anyone should be allowed to trade), or visit, but we should not use coercive force to change them into what we want, anymore than we'd want someone to do that to us.

Defense, by all means. Full and hard when it's needed. But we can use the defense justification for anything if we expand that doctrine to include activities all over the world. We really need to focus our energies at home. Bring all the troops home, from the 130+ countries we seem to think we need a military presence in. Let them fend for themselves (see, I'm not pushing for global welfare). For some reason, Canada is able to get along just fine without the huge military expenditures we have.

If we're attacked, respond in force, and then return home. Don't go traipsing about the world trying to find bad guys because it somehow, might save us from another attack. We're much more likely to provoke another attack. We'll be picking allies, and giving them aid, and getting blamed for their evils, just like now. Let's send the message that "if you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone", instead of "we'll do what we want, and you see if you can stop us". This all started with Roosevelt and his "Great White Fleet", and look what its become.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Unless and until the grand unified world government comes to power and can make everyone play nice - that's the way it is. Putting the US in the role of the great den mother is just as dangerous as putting your head in the sand and pretending there's no one else out there.
I've heard of this "unified world government" before. It's hard to imagine a more sinister government. Less government = good. More government = bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
I honestly don't think this conflict is a 'Get the US for pissing on us' deal. Regardless of the religious justifications. It IS a conflict motivated by Religion. The extremists honestly feel it's their obligation and duty to destroy what's different. Anything that's 'Them' in their viewpoint - should not be allowed to exist. It's to their own glory to destroy 'Them'.
Frankly, it sounds like some Christians I know. "I know I'm right, I know you're wrong. Hence, your belief deserves no respect, and it's perfectly okay for me to force my beliefs on you. Hey, it's for your own good." Violence is violence, no matter what cloak you wrap it in. I simply don't see this conflict any differently that what's gone before, it's just new to people who aren't used to being the ones that are hated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Civilized countries and people use things called government and economy to influence others towards their own goals. Success is variable and if you don't get your way, you go on and either work harder within the systems to change it or you get over it.
Or you overthrow it. Remember that little revolutionary war?

That aside, government does not equal civilization. Places can be quite civilized without a government. There are examples but I'm not educated enough to expound on them. They are few and far between. As a rule, people like a hierarchy. It's probably our biggest failing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Part of a government's duty is to protect itself and it's people from those who don't play by the rules.
It seems the federal government is more concerned about protecting itself from the people then protecting the people. Why else would they pass laws that prevent "the people" from enacting any sort of change in Washington?

If you believe in completely submitting to the state, you should follow those rules, whatever they are. I disagree. I think people need to follow their own moral compass. Hopefully, that's in line with "the rules" some politicians wrote on a piece of paper somewhere.

But sometimes not. How about the imprisoning of Japanese people at the start of WWII, or the wholesale slaughter of the native Americans? Andrew Jackson refused to abide by a Supreme Court ruling and forced the Cherokee nation westward from their land, the "trail of tears". He broke the rules, but it didn't matter, and, like today, congress does nothing. How about racial segregation?

There are many, many examples of bad laws. Good people disobey bad laws. The smaller government is, the less often this will happen. With the rapid growth of the federal government, this conflict is growing rapidly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Sending folks with bombs strapped to their backs into public places simply to kill 'them' is not the action of a disgruntled national. That's not the behavior of a hero. It is the behavior of absolute intolerance. A senseless act of violence justified by a belief in personal gain.
Certainly true for the person carrying the bomb. But the people that planned the attack and got that bomb, they're a little smarter. It's part of a battle. In a war, you hit the targets you can.

We need defense, no argument there. But if we keep giving people a reason to want to kill us, some will find a way. There will always be some that want that anyway just due to intolerance, but not nearly so many. You have to balance the cost with the result. You will never have total security.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #24 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 4:46 pm
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
So long as we all remember that those of us on this side of our boarders - no matter what our opinions - are all on the same team.
Excellent. Yes, let's not forget this. We won't all agree on how to handle things.

I have similar debates with my brother, who was in the military. When you see your friends get killed, you want to retaliate. It doesn't matter if they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Dying for politics isn't new.

Some of that blame should go to the politicians that decided that was a good use of our military. It will never get better if we cannot rise above the emotion. And no, I don't understand cause I haven't been through it. But that doesn't make my logic incorrect.

My brother and I don't agree on most of these topics, but we're still brothers, and respect and love each other. We'd fight for each other to the end, and through our debates, we both grow a little bit. It may be comfortable, but you cannot grow if you only hear the same things over and over.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #25 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 5:17 pm
Senior Member
 
Zotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Casper, WY, USA
Posts: 1,742
Long??

No way I can get through this at work - I'll hit it again later tonite.

'till then!

Tate

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

02 Mauve - my 'Light Truck'
Wyoming Immigration Officer, Cyberhiway tour guide and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zotter is offline  
post #26 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 6:08 pm
IBR# 366
 
meese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 16,465
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
People are trying so hard to make Americans feel guilty, and blaming everything on Bush.....
Not everything, just everything that is actually his fault. And it is a pretty long list . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
"Whats Iraq got to do with 9/11?" Is the stupidest thing I've ever heard a human speak...
Only if you actually believe the rhetoric. Say it with me "Saddam didn't attack us. That was just a convenient justification for going after him."

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
We either fight them there or we "WILL" fight them here...
Unfortunately, it may well come to that. But promoting a foreign policy of unjustified war against questionable targets only fuels those who oppose us and makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's a big mess for sure, and not something that we will see sorted out in our lifetimes. But current policy and actions are just fanning the flames . . .

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
meese is offline  
post #27 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 9:21 pm
Senior Member
 
UncleRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Alexandria, PA, USA
Posts: 1,633
Wake up to the fact it was an inside job.
They have pocketed hundreds of billions of dollars.
Rock
Oh yeah we were hit by some jacked up, camel jockies that failed flight school, over and over. Flight 93 was not shot out of the sky and the fact that they brodcast that WTC 7 was going to collaspe even though it was not hit with a plane of anything else was just a mistake.

I'll will poisons the soul
Living well is the best revenge
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rock

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
UncleRock is offline  
post #28 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 9:34 pm
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleRock
Wake up to the fact it was an inside job.
They have pocketed hundreds of billions of dollars.
Rock
Oh yeah we were hit by some jacked up, camel jockies that failed flight school, over and over. Flight 93 was not shot out of the sky and the fact that they brodcast that WTC 7 was going to collaspe even though it was not hit with a plane of anything else was just a mistake.
I don't buy the conspiracy theories. Besides the counterpoints to the above, the federal government is too incompetent to pull off a good conspiracy.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #29 of 34 Old Jul 17th, 2007, 11:05 pm
Senior Member
 
KMC1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SLC, UT, United States Of America
Posts: 2,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
Civilized countries and people use things called government and economy to influence others towards their own goals. Success is variable and if you don't get your way, you go on and either work harder within the systems to change it or you get over it. Part of a government's duty is to protect itself and it's people from those who don't play by the rules.
You mean like with the illegal immigration debacle? I agree with you on that. If we really cared about this country and the people in it, we'd continuously improve our national economy in ways to 1) make it able to sustain itself without resorting to the exploitation of cheap, illegal immigrant labor; And 2) would continue to improve OUR quality of life - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Quote:
Sending folks with bombs strapped to their backs into public places simply to kill 'them' is not the action of a disgruntled national. That's not the behavior of a hero. It is the behavior of absolute intolerance. A senseless act of violence justified by a belief in personal gain.
I agree. The religion of (insert your favorite religion here) is always the damn excuse to kill others. In this case, the right thing to do is first and foremost recognize the issue, and the History of the conflict. In that context it becomes obvious that this was an extremely ill-conceived war to say the least. The Muslims still think this has something to do with The Crusades (yeah, THOSE Crusades, from like 1000 years ago ) and to them, they're very civilization is at stake. Why? For just the reasons you outline. If THEY had the capability to do what we're doing, and they were occupying OUR country, how do you think they would be treating us? Well, that's what they SUSPECT we want to do, so of course they're scared to death and suspicious of us. And that's why it's so easy to recuit kids to blow themselves up. We can't win a theocratic war that's almost 1000 years old.

R1200GSA Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to Alaska I go!
(Down to ONE BIKE - ARGH!)
KMC1 is offline  
post #30 of 34 Old Jul 18th, 2007, 2:42 am
IBR# 366
 
meese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 16,465
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
You mean like with the illegal immigration debacle? I agree with you on that. If we really cared about this country and the people in it, we'd continuously improve our national economy in ways to 1) make it able to sustain itself without resorting to the exploitation of cheap, illegal immigrant labor; And 2) would continue to improve OUR quality of life - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
Agreed, I'm too. Legal immigration is fine and necessary, within certain guidelines. But Illegal immigration has gotten way out of hand, mostly because there are no real consequences for the immigrants and lots of opportunities here for them. And it will continue that way as long as those with the power and influence are the ones making money off the current situation. They are improving THEIR quality of life, not necessarily OURS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMC1
The religion of (insert your favorite religion here) is always the damn excuse to kill others. In this case, the right thing to do is first and foremost recognize the issue, and the History of the conflict. . . . We can't win a theocratic war that's almost 1000 years old.
But how can we recognize the real issues when our leaders are also fighting a religious war? W himself said it was a Crusade right after 9/11, until his spin doctors got hold of him and told him to stop using that word.

All we know for sure is that it's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better, and everything our current administration does just seems to escalate the whole situation.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
meese is offline  
post #31 of 34 Old Jul 18th, 2007, 3:26 am
Senior Member
 
Bobnoxous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Agreed, I'm too. Legal immigration is fine and necessary, within certain guidelines. But Illegal immigration has gotten way out of hand, mostly because there are no real consequences for the immigrants and lots of opportunities here for them.
Again, I think people treat "the law" with just a little too much devotion. Immigration laws have changed. It's dang near impossible to immigrate legally now. Huge waiting periods, $10K I believe, and forms upon forms. It's designed to make immigration defacto illegal.

Go back 100 years, when my anscestors probably arrived. Did they have to pay $10K (adjust for inflation)? Did they have to wait years. Did they have to make a trip back to their country? No. The waited on Ellis island for 3 days, went through a medical exam, and that was it. You cannot compare the two and say one was legal and one illegal, as if that's relevant.

Get rid of welfare, and the immigration issue isn't an issue anymore. Now, the people that come here are here to work, not to live off the welfare state. No worky, no eaty. Simple logic that should apply to everyone.

It gets old hearing the politicians taking credit for solving problems that they caused in the first place, as if they did something wonderful, just to find out they only created another one in the process.

When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs.
- Maxwell Anderson

Bob
2007 K1200GT
Bobnoxous is offline  
post #32 of 34 Old Jul 18th, 2007, 7:56 am
Senior Member
 
UncleRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Alexandria, PA, USA
Posts: 1,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobnoxous
I don't buy the conspiracy theories. Besides the counterpoints to the above, the federal government is too incompetent to pull off a good conspiracy.
In the land of the blind the 1 eyed man is king!
I did not say it was the federal gov. ,said inside.
Conspiracy, that the greatest nation to ever be, could be brought low by table cloth on the head Haji's. Almost like the lone gunman in the JFK thing.
What was his last speech about? ANYONE?? Anyone??

Rock

I'll will poisons the soul
Living well is the best revenge
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rock

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
UncleRock is offline  
post #33 of 34 Old Jul 18th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 531
The day we invaded Iraq, I took a deep breath, knew it was a huge mistake.

I thought about the Japanese general after the Pearl Harbor attack when he stated something like "We have awoken the tiger"...he sure as hell knew what was coming next. I felt I knew what was going to happen as a result of this...could be wrong of course, but my opinion.

I just felt invading Iraq was creating a huge quagmire that could have been better managed per below...

Why a mistake? Because Hussien was the only person able to keep Iraq under control. We should have used him for that reason alone. We could have cornered all the shitbirds in afghanistan, the ones who ran to Iraq would probably have been killed there by Hussien. We should have taken care of that situation later, if needed.

Now we have this mess spread all over, adding fuel to the fire when we could be quietly solving the problem (like Russia maybe?).

Personally, I think we outta keep loppin' their heads off as they pop-up (and believe me, we are) and keep them out of this country best we can, keep our citizens armed properly and try to keep teh bulk of our troops home as much as possible, might be a good solution.

Besides, nothing like real-life sniping to keep our special forces in tune! ahem...sorry...

semper fi..
ldbikin is offline  
post #34 of 34 Old Jul 18th, 2007, 2:11 pm
Senior Member
 
hoog62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
Posts: 2,862
Aren't the aliens supposed to return at the end of the Mayan calender, or am I crossing up my theories? 5 1/2 years and counting...

Dave Hoogerland

'08 Triumph Tiger 1050 ABS
'02 K1200LTC "The Silver Snoopy" (gone but not forgotten)
'08 Can-Am Spyder "???"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hoog62 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome