Damned Dishonest People!! - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:57 am Thread Starter
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Angry Damned Dishonest People!!

[RANT ON]

I'm poking around eBay the other day looking for a service manual for my 95 GS. I find one in PDF format for sale, bid on it and win. I'm the only bidder so I get it for $9.99 + $4 shipping; not a bad deal I say. A few days later I get an envelope in the mail with a CD case in it. I open it expecting to seea BMW CD containing the manual. Instead I get a home-burned CD containing two full PDF versions of BMW service manuals (The GS and the R1100S), along with a bunch of "Bonus" crap like stunt videos, links to lame-ass websites, etc.

So I email the guy and ask him for the original BMW CD. I get this repsonse -


"Stop playing games. You wanted the manual or actually the info on it and you got it. The auction states exactly what info you are getting, if you thought of something else, you had to ask. If you want to talk law to me - you paid for the educational material that is on the CD. Use it and enjoy it. Unless you are looking for a freebie, because I know you could have copied the disc to your computer already, feel free to send it back for the refund. No stress."





So I responded with this -




What's with the attitude? I'm not trying to play games, and you're just being dishonest and trying to profit off other people's work. You offered a BMW shop manual for sale. I've owned several BMW bikes and the associated manuals. They come on a CD from BMW with a BMW part number. Honestly, that's what I thought I was buying. What I got instead was a homemade CD with an illegally made copy of a BMW manual that you aren't authorized to sell. Am I supposed to believe you aren't selling multiple copies of it? The fact that I expected to have a legal transaction shouldn't be a surprise to you. So, I'll ask again, if you have the original CD from BMW with the manual on it, can I get it? That is what you offered, what I bought from you, and what you should deliver for the auction sale price. I don't think that's too much to ask.




Maybe I'm getting too wrapped around the axle on this, but am I out of line to expect to get a legal copy of the manual for this transaction? I certainly don't think so, but I could be wrong. Still, apparently this ass-wipe is making a living ripping off other people's work. And to top it off, he has a near perfect satisfaction record on eBay! I guess nobody has reported him to eBay. of the few complaints he has (3 out of 267) they were all for fake or misrepresented merchandise. Hmm, a pattern perhaps??



[/RANT OFF]


Thanks, I just had to get that off my chest. This kind of crap just pisses me off. Of course, he was stupid enough to include his return address on the mailer. Anyone want to help sign this guy up for a bunch of gay porn and beastiality magazines??

David Taylor
San Jose, CA
2010 R1200RT Polar Metallic
AMA, BMWMOA
Booze Brother #4

The shortest distance between two points is for people who don't ride!



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post #2 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 1:25 am
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I've also looked for the LT manual on CD on e-bay - all with the same result that you got.

Most of them where "home-burned" copies of the PDF. I got to the point of actually e-mailing them before bidding, and have yet to find a legitimate copy on the site.

So I ordered the Clymer and was done with it - legally.

Gino
Modesto, CA
'02 Silver
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post #3 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 2:06 am
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Maybe I'm getting too wrapped around the axle on this, but am I out of line to expect to get a legal copy of the manual for this transaction?

Yes and Yes. For $14, you should not have expected the original. There are a million examples of this stuff. Its not right, but its out there. If you publish anything of value, expect that someone will copy and resell or post it for free. I know you know.

My personal whap across the nose was some time ago when I was curious about a scheduling program that I might use, but couldn't find a copy, and it was quite expensive. So I paid $50 to a back door vendor. I soon received a CD with all the labels of the program...empty, blank, void, nada.

Now, if someone would just find/copy/deceitfully publish, rip off, steal, plagiarize, pilfer, a manual for an old industrial tractor I have...!

Pete Jessen
CCR 02, 03, 04, 08, 10
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post #4 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 7:26 am
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I try to always ask.. yeah, I may "miss" the auction, but that's just fine...

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post #5 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 7:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
[RANT ON]

I guess nobody has reported him to eBay. of the few complaints he has (3 out of 267) they were all for fake or misrepresented merchandise. Hmm, a pattern perhaps??


[/RANT OFF]

So, did you ding him? He gets enough dings folks will stop doing bidness with him. Screw the gay porn and bestiality, sign him up for Martha Stewart, fashion and home decorating, a hell of it's own!



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post #6 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 7:50 am
 
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$9.99 for an item that retails at around $120 and you though it was legit?

Does the maxim 'if it sounds to good to be true...' come to mind?
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post #7 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 8:58 am
 
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I bought one like that for my Yamaha Majesty, but it only cost $2.00. Yea, I knew it was a bootleg copy when I ordered it. I couldn't find a Clymer manual for the bike, and I wasn't going to pay the price the dealer wanted for a legit copy. (about $100.00)

It was worth every dime I paid for it. Not quite totally worthless, but close.
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post #8 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 9:01 am
 
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I think you're just going to have to chalk this one up to experience David. Unfortunately, in the "Bad" column. Now go throw back a pint and just forgit-aboot-it! If it ain't Skotish, it's CRAP anyway. Now where's me HAGGUS!?!?!
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post #9 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 9:29 am
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Actually, with all the posts here over the years about that type of thing I am pretty surprised you ever expected an original for that price. I have seen only a couple actual originals on eBay over the last few years, and they usually sell for around $60.


What really surprises me is that BMW (and many others) have not gone after the perpetrators legally. What is more upsetting is that eBay makes absolutely NO effort to monitor the sales of this type of thing, and will only pull an ad if it is reported. They could put 2-3 people in charge of scanning their ads and easily cull out probably a couple hundred a day. The scam motor vehicle ads are even easier to spot, but do they try? No.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
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IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #10 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 10:00 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
I think you're just going to have to chalk this one up to experience David. Unfortunately, in the "Bad" column. Now go throw back a pint and just forgit-aboot-it! If it ain't Skotish, it's CRAP anyway. Now where's me HAGGUS!?!?!

Well....HERE it is!

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...803#post129803


If'n ya gots the stomach fer it... heh, heh...
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post #11 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:41 am
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Angry Description stated what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
[RANT ON]

I'm poking around eBay the other day looking for a service manual for my 95 GS. I find one in PDF format for sale, bid on it and win. I'm the only bidder so I get it for $9.99 + $4 shipping; not a bad deal I say. A few days later I get an envelope in the mail with a CD case in it. I open it expecting to seea BMW CD containing the manual. Instead I get a home-burned CD containing two full PDF versions of BMW service manuals (The GS and the R1100S), along with a bunch of "Bonus" crap like stunt videos, links to lame-ass websites, etc.

So I email the guy and ask him for the original BMW CD. I get this repsonse -


"Stop playing games. You wanted the manual or actually the info on it and you got it. The auction states exactly what info you are getting, if you thought of something else, you had to ask. If you want to talk law to me - you paid for the educational material that is on the CD. Use it and enjoy it. Unless you are looking for a freebie, because I know you could have copied the disc to your computer already, feel free to send it back for the refund. No stress."





So I responded with this -




What's with the attitude? I'm not trying to play games, and you're just being dishonest and trying to profit off other people's work. You offered a BMW shop manual for sale. I've owned several BMW bikes and the associated manuals. They come on a CD from BMW with a BMW part number. Honestly, that's what I thought I was buying. What I got instead was a homemade CD with an illegally made copy of a BMW manual that you aren't authorized to sell. Am I supposed to believe you aren't selling multiple copies of it? The fact that I expected to have a legal transaction shouldn't be a surprise to you. So, I'll ask again, if you have the original CD from BMW with the manual on it, can I get it? That is what you offered, what I bought from you, and what you should deliver for the auction sale price. I don't think that's too much to ask.




Maybe I'm getting too wrapped around the axle on this, but am I out of line to expect to get a legal copy of the manual for this transaction? I certainly don't think so, but I could be wrong. Still, apparently this ass-wipe is making a living ripping off other people's work. And to top it off, he has a near perfect satisfaction record on eBay! I guess nobody has reported him to eBay. of the few complaints he has (3 out of 267) they were all for fake or misrepresented merchandise. Hmm, a pattern perhaps??



[/RANT OFF]


Thanks, I just had to get that off my chest. This kind of crap just pisses me off. Of course, he was stupid enough to include his return address on the mailer. Anyone want to help sign this guy up for a bunch of gay porn and beastiality magazines??
David,
If his item description stated it was the "original BMW CD", then report him to Ebay and leave negative feedback. Miss stated descriptions are a legal deal breaker!
That's about all you can do. BUT, people have to report him! Otherwise Ebay probably won't do anything at all. We , the buyers HAVE to help stop him.

Vern


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Bought used K1200LT number 3. This one is green/teal with 31,369(now 7/29/2018 54,143) miles and is an '02. The first 2 bikes made it to near 150,000 miles.
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Due to heart health, the Dr says not to ride under 40 degree air temp. Ugh! Now it is harder to get my 18000 miles a year in just in the summer. Guess that stopped my 20 degree rides now.
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78 years young!
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Love this LT bike and still waiting for my first speeding ticket. LOL
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post #12 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:16 pm
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Yes, but, if this guy can sell a CD for 99 cents, why can't BMW sell it for, say, $9.99? If they did, we would all buy the legal copy. I know they have R&D and paid someone to write it, but they have to do that anyway for their own techs. Selling them to owners is the bonus plan for them. Just like everything else BMW sells, this is grossly overpriced.

Brian
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post #13 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBantz
Yes, but, if this guy can sell a CD for 99 cents, why can't BMW sell it for, say, $9.99? If they did, we would all buy the legal copy. I know they have R&D and paid someone to write it, but they have to do that anyway for their own techs. Selling them to owners is the bonus plan for them. Just like everything else BMW sells, this is grossly overpriced.
Have you priced service manuals for any car or motorcycle lately? They are all very expensive now. Yes, we can think that they are charging way too much, but even paperback books and magazines are now WAY more expensive than they were just a few years back.

I don't think any vehicle manufacturer is selling service manuals for less than $75 any longer, most are in the $100 plus range.

Face it, they are selling relatively few of them anyway, compared to say a paperback novel, which is in the $5-7 range now, so there is no reason to expect a service manual to be in the $10 range. For instance, how many K1200LT service manuals would you expect BMW to sell versus a relatively popular author's paperback novel? Maybe 1:1000? Then the paper back should still be $.79 like a couple decades back.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #14 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 1:31 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Actually, with all the posts here over the years about that type of thing I am pretty surprised you ever expected an original for that price. I have seen only a couple actual originals on eBay over the last few years, and they usually sell for around $60.


What really surprises me is that BMW (and many others) have not gone after the perpetrators legally. What is more upsetting is that eBay makes absolutely NO effort to monitor the sales of this type of thing, and will only pull an ad if it is reported. They could put 2-3 people in charge of scanning their ads and easily cull out probably a couple hundred a day. The scam motor vehicle ads are even easier to spot, but do they try? No.
Regarding the price point (since a few folks commented on it). I'm not quite that stupid or naive, and if it was a "buy it now" for $10 I would have expected what I received. The guy started bidding at $9.99 and I was the first bidder. I figured he started low so more people would bid (what I tend to do when I sell something on eBay), and actually expected to pay $40-60 for it, and was willing to bid that high on it (my initial max bid was $30). It turns out I was the only person to bid on it, so after sitting around for 3 days I won it. I figured, "Hey, I got a great deal", and that was that until I got the actual disc.

And I agree with David Shealey regarding companies policing their stuff. The owners of the IP aren't taking steps to stop it, and eBay isn't proactively trying to stop it either, both of which suck. I guess it's a bit of caveat emptor in this case. I guess if BMW doesn't care and eBay doesn't care, why should I (other than trying to do the right thing)? So in the end I guess I'll just say "screw it" and keep what I got, but I still don't like it.

David Taylor
San Jose, CA
2010 R1200RT Polar Metallic
AMA, BMWMOA
Booze Brother #4

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post #15 of 16 Old Dec 1st, 2006, 4:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Actually, with all the posts here over the years about that type of thing I am pretty surprised you ever expected an original for that price. I have seen only a couple actual originals on eBay over the last few years, and they usually sell for around $60.


What really surprises me is that BMW (and many others) have not gone after the perpetrators legally. What is more upsetting is that eBay makes absolutely NO effort to monitor the sales of this type of thing, and will only pull an ad if it is reported. They could put 2-3 people in charge of scanning their ads and easily cull out probably a couple hundred a day. The scam motor vehicle ads are even easier to spot, but do they try? No.
I read that Ebay had a staff of several thousand that did nada but search for scams. With over 1 million posts, they still aren't successful.



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post #16 of 16 Old Dec 4th, 2006, 1:45 pm
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If you really want to make his day, report it to BMW. I'll just bet that they'll get his attention.

Dick Wood
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