To Helena and the Admins - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 6:44 pm Thread Starter
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To Helena and the Admins

In continuation of the discussion started in the Things that make you go hmmmmm thread, which has now been locked:

OK, I'm going to assume that you're approaching this in a reasonable manner, and will respond as such. Although I will say that locking out threads instead of letting the discussion continue doesn't build much confidence . . .

As anyone who has spent any time at all on this site knows, I am easily the top poster on this board, and have been for many years now. I've seen (and helped) it grow from a simple email list, through several different forum variations, into the premier site for BMW Luxury Touring that it has become. That's something that we can all be proud of.

You claim this is a private forum, which is true enough. It always has been controlled privately, just like it always has been open to anyone with an interest in BMW motorcycles. Forums like these aren't any good without public participation, so censoring and banning long-term contributing members should always be done with the utmost care and consideration, and not by some random spam bot.

You claim that a user complained about being spammed about a new forum, which is what prompted you to add to the spam filter and cause the ensuing mess. And yes, it is quite a mess, as any of the long-term contributing members here will attest.

You may notice that I repeated the phrase long-term continuing members, because I feel that's the gist of the whole problem here. The random spam-bot is banning long-term contributing members, and it is precisely the long-term contributing members that gives sites like this their value. That's what keeps people coming back and logging in, which drives participation and member numbers, which is what makes the site valuable to advertisers, and keeps it in the black.

Lose those long-term contributing members, either by heavy-handedness, or by draconian rule enforcement, and the whole site suffers, driving people away. And cutting into your precious profiteering.

And let me be clear here: the folks that you have indiscriminately spam-banned are exactly the kind of long-term contributing members that this site needs to survive and flourish. Because that's just what they've been doing for the past decade or more.

Andy Pleschutznig, Randy Prade, and Steve Shreeve (Andy, Randy, and Katnappin, which you would know if you spent any time at all participating in this site) have contributed immensely to this community, from back in the days when it was just a small email list. Andy is the master IT guy, who has kept things running smoothly forever, and has done so much for many of our members, myself included. Randy's admin skills are only out shadowed by his excellent technical knowledge, which he shares freely and without hesitation. Steve's sharing of his own technical knowledge is just as impressive, as is his legendary willingness to help out stranded riders.

Those three have helped to make the site what it is, by giving tirelessly of their time, energy, and talents. I'd take those three as contributing members over any 30, or even 300, lurkers who do nothing to help make this a better site. And definitely over one guy who read something he didn't like and complained . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin
You tell us what we can do to help and we will do it.
You want an honest answer here? OK . . .

What you can do is respect the members for their contributions. After all, that's why you took over the site, right?

What you can do is review this draconian spam-banning. Look at the facts, and make decisions based on context, not on some random word string that you don't like.

Is one alleged complaint really worth more than three of the pillars of this community (or more - how many others have been spam-banned, or are walking away in disgust)? If so, then that truly is a poor business model.

What you can do is become active participants in this site. Because then you'll understand just what it is that makes this community great, and who are the people that contribute more than their share, and have built up the respect deserving of their tireless efforts.

What you can do is to not lock threads (including this one) when you don't like the direction the discussion is going. We're all adults here, and we can handle a bit of lively debate on topics that we're passionate about.

And remember, it's that passion that makes this site so valuable to you and your precious advertisers.

You recently implemented the Share and Like buttons. The funny thing is, those that you have spam-banned would easily be right up at the top of those Shares and Likes, if you had only left them to contribute just as they have been doing for so many years . . .

I can see how this whole situation has been handled poorly on both sides. But I say that it clearly needs to be reviewed, and not just left up to some random spam-bot.

Because if that's truly the direction that this site is going, then I can't see much reason to stick around, either.

So now, you have a choice:

Let the spam-ban stay, and thus prove that you're only in it for the advertising stats, and care not at all about the community or its members. It's just a job, right?

Or you can review the situation and recognize the immense contributions of our members, showing that you understand our community and wish to be active participants.

It's your call, and the future of this site depends on your actions here . . .

P.S.: Honestly, I think littering the site with banner ads and inserting obnoxious and distracting adverts in the middle of threads is far more spammish and egregious than someone randomly posting about different motorcycle-related forums . . .

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #2 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 7:08 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

I rarely fully agree with Ken but he is on the mark here. To make it short and sweet, ken's not very good at that

This whole situation has been handled poorly in fact very unprofessionally. Along with the lack of response on the virus issue which has been ignored/denied for a long time now. ( I have not been able to log on at work because my work network now considers BMWLT.com a dangerous site!)

This reaction of the Admins of this board, will do more harm than the so called mass spamming by the long term pillars of this community.


So I'm going to ask right here in front of the Board is there a reason we can not let our friends, which I have known many for over 12 years on this site, about another friendly site Y O U R I D E . U S ???

John & Cathy
Northern CA
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post #3 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 7:52 pm
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Thumbs up Re: To Helena and the Admins

+100 here John! And Ken says it right here!

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarider View Post
I rarely fully agree with Ken but he is on the mark here. To make it short and sweet, ken's not very good at that

This whole situation has been handled poorly in fact very unprofessionally. Along with the lack of response on the virus issue which has been ignored/denied for a long time now. ( I have not been able to log on at work because my work network now considers BMWLT.com a dangerous site!)

This reaction of the Admins of this board, will do more harm than the so called mass spamming by the long term pillars of this community.


So I'm going to ask right here in front of the Board is there a reason we can not let our friends, which I have known many for over 12 years on this site, about another friendly site Y O U R I D E . U S ???

John & Marilyn Fisher
'00 K1200LTC "Katie"
'95 Triumph "Tigger"
'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
Hillsboro, Oregon

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post #4 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 8:31 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Hey guys,

First off we do fully appreciate our members and community that has evolved here over the past decade. These actions were taken in an effort to protect the community more so then hinder it. I apologize if they came across as overbearing or disrespectful.

It is ok to inform members but it would have been nice if we were asked/notified to do so, instead of mass spamming members and doing things behind others admins back. This makes it look suspicious, like they are trying to tank the site and split it off. Which we have seen happen before.

I spoke with Helena and these threads/actions will all be reviewed by the forum management team and we will make things right. Just give us a chance to do so.

Thanks in advance and ride safe this weekend all,
Jeff
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post #5 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 8:36 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Ken.
A well written summation of current events.

Admins.
This community is comprised of people from around the world.
We hang out here because we like to. It's enjoyable.
We contribute here when we can be of help.
This is a forum bringing people together with a common passion.
And generally speaking, motorcyclists are passionate people.
We do love to ride !

Censorship is a dirty word.
Other than incitement to violence, One should be free to express opinions.
Let the individual decide what he / she wants to read !

Cheers

Jenna: Ocean Blue '06
Hilton: Head of the Steering Committee.
Rena: The Committee.
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post #6 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 9:23 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by amarider View Post
I rarely fully agree with Ken but he is on the mark here. To make it short and sweet, ken's not very good at that

This whole situation has been handled poorly in fact very unprofessionally. Along with the lack of response on the virus issue which has been ignored/denied for a long time now. ( I have not been able to log on at work because my work network now considers BMWLT.com a dangerous site!)

This reaction of the Admins of this board, will do more harm than the so called mass spamming by the long term pillars of this community.


So I'm going to ask right here in front of the Board is there a reason we can not let our friends, which I have known many for over 12 years on this site, about another friendly site Y O U R I D E . U S ???
+1, Well said by all members responding to this topic. Without the more experienced/ knowledgeable riders that have contributed to this forum it would not be what it is today. We all come here for the common goal of learning and knowledge base as well as friendship in the cycling community. When $$$ start becoming the driving force behind the site it will cease to be attractive.

The core long standing participants as indicated and others of us who are trying to follow and learn best we can should be allowed to do so in a manner condusive to site growth and development.

We are here it is a friendly place. When it is becomes operated like a tyranical "I will only let you see what I want you to see" it will fail.

Censorship never works for anyone.


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post #7 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 9:47 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

I will stick my neck out.
SO SO SAD

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Keep the rubber side down
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post #8 of 76 Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 9:55 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

I left the BMWMOA forum because of petty crap like this. In fact I thought this forum was above the petty antics. I guess I was wrong, same bullshit here like anywhere else. If I knew how to un-register from here I would be gone. Instead I will just not visit anymore. Very sad.
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post #9 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 1:31 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Testing… 1-2-3
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post #10 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 1:55 am Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Jeff,

Thanks for your response.

As I said, I can see how things were handled poorly on both sides here. And I'm glad that this is under review, which shows a reasonableness from your camp.

Honestly, I post less here than I used to for a couple of reasons. I don't come here looking for technical advice as much as I used to, since I've long since moved away from the LT, even if I do remember it fondly. And the tech advice that I can give back to the community is pretty well covered by those still riding that fine motorcycle.

In fact, I mostly still stick around because of all the friends I've made here over the years. Friends I only know online, friends I've met at CCR and other site-sponsored gatherings, friends I've had the pleasure of riding with, and those that I'm fortunate enough to count as close friends in my everyday life.

All of that has come about due to the excellent community that we have built here, which is why many of us are so passionate about this site. And while we do understand the amount of work it takes to keep the lights on around here, none of us want to see it overrun with ads and turned into a profit-first mentality. And many of us are very strictly opposed to random censorship from some sort of shadow host, especially against long-term members who have absolutely proven themselves and developed solid respect from the community that they have built.

And I reiterate, the people that are being auto-censored here just happen to be some of the top contributors that have made this site what it is today. Lose them, and you will lose most of the remaining top contributors due to the solidarity of decades-long friendships, and the entire site will suffer.

So I'll take a wait-and-see position for now, and give y'all some time to digest and reflect.

(And to all the regular members still here that I proudly call friends - you know it's gotten bad when Meese has to step in and be the reasonable one . . . )

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #11 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 2:23 am
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Talking Re: To Helena and the Admins

The old 'messenger13' got screwed by the last regime, and now it appears that some of them are getting a taste of their own medicine.
Makes me kinda chuckle ... just a little.

In case this isn't making sense to you, checkout the screenshot below. That post count for the original 'messenger13' should be well over 15,000 posts. That's over 10,000 posts that just simply disappeared one day ... all deleted back in 2008. Was that censorship? Where was the freedom of speech back then???


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post #12 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 7:55 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

I'm one of the more 'junior' admins and was not brought in to the discussions about banning several pillars of our community.

Having read about the controversies yesterday, it seems there are two issues. One was spamming, which we all pretty much hate. How egregious that was I can't tell and I did not receive any of those emails, so I can't say, personally. But I was advised by the senior Admin folks about the banning of the three gentlemen yesterday over spam policy violations.

The other issue in these discussion threads, apparently, is related to the forum owners/hosts reading PMs that are sent, what they had thought was privately, between members, and that seems to be a serious privacy issue that goes beyond spam. Again, I can't personally comment on that. No PMs to me disappeared, to my knowledge.

Jeff has asked us to bear with him for a few days as the senior Admins consult and review the two actions and the two issues, and he deserves our consideration, just as the three gentlemen deserve the consideration of the Admins in the correct light. The handling of both issues have the potential to badly shatter this community of many years standing and I'd ask our contributors, and I'm one of you, to allow the Admins the few days Jeff has asked for.

All of us have freedom on the web - for the time being at least - to participate where we choose, and like any customers of any business, where we feel welcome. So, let's give the Admins a break.

EXCELSIOR !!!

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Free at last!

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post #13 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 10:21 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Thanks for the understanding guys....

I roped some key people in and should have a plan of action early next week. I sincerely want to make this right, actually lost sleep over it last night.

I am not a desk jockey but a 12+ year enthusiast forum veteran who now works in an industry I love as of this year. I have been a founding member of many forums that have been acquired and I know how sensitive and important each community is to you.

Have a great weekend all and lets work together to restore BMWLT.com's integrity and community.

Thanks,
Jeff

Also - if any of you would like to jump on a call early next week PM me and we can set something up. Your feedback and thoughts are invaluable to me since I am a Noob to this site and I want to get up to speed in order to help the process.
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post #14 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 10:52 am Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13_ver2 View Post
The old 'messenger13' got screwed by the last regime
C'mon now Joe, be honest here, and tell the whole story.

You specifically requested that your username and all posts be removed by the Admins, and they complied, after much discussion and some consternation.

You were going through some personal shit at the time, which many of us understood (hell, we've all been there), but you chose to take offense and walk away from this community. There was quite a discussion among the Admins and Mods about it back then, with some people sad to see you go, and others just plain fed up with all your bullshit. You were then, and remain, quite polarizing on this site, as you yourself have attested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee View Post
Yeah, but wasn't M13 v1 a spam bot that was full of bugs and Trojan horses??
Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13_ver2 View Post
That's probably a fair evaluation.
So let's be perfectly clear - it was fully your choice to get nuked.

Remember now buddy, the world doesn't specifically revolve around you . . .

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #15 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 12:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by VS Jeff View Post
I have been a founding member of many forums that have been acquired and I know how sensitive and important each community is to you.
Then I'm sure you understand that it's the people that make a community like this, and without that, you have nothing.

Personally, I'd like to hear directly from those that were auto-banned, so they can tell their side of the story the way that you guys have been able to. Not for more finger-pointing, but just so that we can all make our own decisions based on the facts. I freely admit that those guys are my friends, but I still need to hear both sides of the story here.

I know for a fact that they are intelligent, reasonable people, so giving them equal time would go a long way towards the Admins reestablishing trust in this community.

And let me be quite clear about that - if the decision that comes down is simply to uphold the previous actions and done behind closed doors, then you will lose a lot more than just the trust of this community . . .

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #16 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 1:26 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Whether or not the specific actions and persons banned are reviewed and a decision made, is only half the problem here.

Closing threads, scanning private messages and removing them, banning members all first to review later???? If any research had been done first, questions asked of the long term Admin and moderators, then this could of been handle professionally.

I now have little or no trust of the owners and Admins of this site.

I have said enough for now, I'll wait and watch.

John & Cathy
Northern CA
01 K1200LTC Basalt - Moose


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post #17 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 1:53 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese View Post
Jeff,

Thanks for your response.

As I said, I can see how things were handled poorly on both sides here. And I'm glad that this is under review, which shows a reasonableness from your camp.

Honestly, I post less here than I used to for a couple of reasons. I don't come here looking for technical advice as much as I used to, since I've long since moved away from the LT, even if I do remember it fondly. And the tech advice that I can give back to the community is pretty well covered by those still riding that fine motorcycle.

In fact, I mostly still stick around because of all the friends I've made here over the years. Friends I only know online, friends I've met at CCR and other site-sponsored gatherings, friends I've had the pleasure of riding with, and those that I'm fortunate enough to count as close friends in my everyday life.

All of that has come about due to the excellent community that we have built here, which is why many of us are so passionate about this site. And while we do understand the amount of work it takes to keep the lights on around here, none of us want to see it overrun with ads and turned into a profit-first mentality. And many of us are very strictly opposed to random censorship from some sort of shadow host, especially against long-term members who have absolutely proven themselves and developed solid respect from the community that they have built.

And I reiterate, the people that are being auto-censored here just happen to be some of the top contributors that have made this site what it is today. Lose them, and you will lose most of the remaining top contributors due to the solidarity of decades-long friendships, and the entire site will suffer.

So I'll take a wait-and-see position for now, and give y'all some time to digest and reflect.

(And to all the regular members still here that I proudly call friends - you know it's gotten bad when Meese has to step in and be the reasonable one . . . )
+1

I find this whole situation very disturbing.
This is my favorite forum. Lots of good people here.
I would hate to see it fall apart due to some "Big Brother" type activities.

I'll wait and see how this situation turns out ...
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post #18 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 2:39 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

My time with this forum has been short due to not having the LT until last year. I have gained a lot of knowledge from the forum elders and had a couple of lively discussions also along the way. Coming in half way through the movie so to speak, a lot of what is going down now is of no consequence to me. However as a new member looking forward and into the future my thoughts and gut reactions to what is now becoming a major issue is of consequence. The post by admin to me is the forum leaders back pedalling. Whether they agree or not agree with the decision to ban three original members the fact is they were banned. Was it a knee jerk reaction or down right heavy handed ness by a totalitarian management committee. I / we cannot say. But we can vote with our decision to either stay or go. Personally for me the poison pill has been swallowed. Like an adulterer in a marriage once that trust has been broken between the two parties it will never ever be the same. People may forgive but never forget. I have had nothing happen to me yet, but why stick around waiting for it to happen. I have joined the new group mentioned and look forward to being with management of a trust worthy nature and not by some money hunting group of investors. Once it becomes a business all bets are off. I would like to wish all the people whom I have met through this forum all the best for the future. Maybe we may meet again on another shore.
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2007 K1200LT Storm Grey metallic
Uni Go Trailer
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post #19 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 5:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

I can believe that the deleted PM's and auto-bans were done automatically by the site's anti-spam filter, although someone did have to manually add that particular word into the filter.

If someone comes in and their first 5 posts are clear spam, then ban away. But I still believe that respected long-term members deserve a bit more consideration . . .

I also understand that "Admin" is a broad description, usually encompassing many different individuals, each with different attitudes and tolerance levels.

So I won't go so far as to say they're reading all our PMs and censoring them willy-nilly, but I do remain skeptical as to why a decision like this was made in the first place, and carried out so quickly and so absolutely. Whichever Admin added that word to the spam filter had to clearly know what would happen to those long-time members, even if they didn't understand or anticipate the obvious backlash.

So I'll hold off for now until we get more information from the powers that be as to how we can move forward from this debacle.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #20 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 7:00 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Wow, I can't believe what I'm reading, what a mess,
I don't post that much anymore
and I only read the few post that interest me.

I hate politics and don't like to even discuss them,

What I do like are the friends I have made here,
because of this I have been a contributing member since I think 2006.

If my friends Andy Randy and Steve (catnappin)
are banned from this site,

don't expect to ever get another penny from me.


Hans
St. Petersburg FL

2002 K1200LTE
"Silver Buffalo" Totaled 5/06
2005 LT
"Esperanza"
BushtecGenesisTrailer
"Our preferred long distance carrier"



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post #21 of 76 Old Oct 4th, 2014, 9:12 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese View Post
C'mon now Joe, be honest here, and tell the whole story.

You specifically requested that your username and all posts be removed by the Admins, and they complied, after much discussion and some consternation.

You were going through some personal shit at the time, which many of us understood (hell, we've all been there), but you chose to take offense and walk away from this community. There was quite a discussion among the Admins and Mods about it back then, with some people sad to see you go, and others just plain fed up with all your bullshit. You were then, and remain, quite polarizing on this site, as you yourself have attested.

So let's be perfectly clear - it was fully your choice to get nuked.

Remember now buddy, the world doesn't specifically revolve around you . . .
And then had the balls to go over to ADV and bitch about how he was treated here.
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Jim Anderson
Idyllwild, CA
'04 Ural Tourist
'08 Tiger
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post #22 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 12:26 am Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim View Post
And then had the balls to go over to ADV and bitch about how he was treated here.
Yep. Good thing the kinder, gentler ver_2 wouldn't do such a thing around here . . .
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Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #23 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 6:51 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by VS Jeff View Post
Hey guys,

First off we do fully appreciate our members and community that has evolved here over the past decade. These actions were taken in an effort to protect the community more so then hinder it. I apologize if they came across as overbearing or disrespectful.

It is ok to inform members but it would have been nice if we were asked/notified to do so, instead of mass spamming members and doing things behind others admins back. This makes it look suspicious, like they are trying to tank the site and split it off. Which we have seen happen before.

I spoke with Helena and these threads/actions will all be reviewed by the forum management team and we will make things right. Just give us a chance to do so.

Thanks in advance and ride safe this weekend all,
Jeff
Hey Jeff how about filling in your profile like the rest of us ?
Patiently waiting to see how this unfolds ..
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Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #24 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 7:16 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by murray View Post
Hey Jeff how about filling in your profile like the rest of us ?
Patiently waiting to see how this unfolds ..
New joiner's to this site can not have there profiles in the upper right corner like we were allowed to do.
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Dave Selvig
2004 Black LT
2000 Canon Red LT



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post #25 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 8:44 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

WOW, been out of town for a week and away from the computer, had no idea any of this was taking place. What a shock and disappointment! I've been a participant on the Forum since the days of the YAHOO email group since I bought my first BMW, 1999 LT, have made many friends here and sort of feel like I'm visiting family every time I log on. Would hate to see it all collapse!

Lynn Keen
North East Florida
MSF #28271 Retired
'99 Canyon Red RETIRED AT 93,000 MI
'05 GRAPHITE METALLIC retired at 87,000 MI
'01 R1150 GS- totaled
'02 R1150 GS sold
'85 K100/EML sidecar sold
'11 R1200RT currently being enjoyed

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post #26 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 9:34 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Seems the only real way to fight back is to not donate money or contact the advertisers on this site and tell them you wouldnt touch their product with a ten foot pole for supporting actions done by ppl running this site...if thats your thing if course


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post #27 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 2:40 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by IIIIKreacherIIII View Post
Seems the only real way to fight back is to not donate money
Looks like the two of us are already fighting the good fight

Gerhard
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post #28 of 76 Old Oct 5th, 2014, 4:45 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman View Post
New joiner's to this site can not have there profiles in the upper right corner like we were allowed to do.
Thanks , but viewing his profile on the drop dn only list's his location. So no profile.

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #29 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 6:23 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

As Lynn said, I too have been gone for a while, (riding and skydiving) and sad to read what has transpired. As a long time K1200LT owner, this forum had became one of my favorite sites for many things, including the bike. Hate to read all of the crap in several threads. I've met a few on this site personally, but most are virtual friend that I'd hate to loose.

I really hope we can get back to where we were, but I'm afraid that "these are the good old days."

Life goes on and it would be a shame for all of this knowledge and friendship to simply vanish. I really am looking forward to a peaceful resolution. Till then, I'll be standing by....
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Dano
Tampa, Fl.

12 K1600 GTL
02 K1200 LT (gone but not forgotten)
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post #30 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 8:58 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by murray View Post
Hey Jeff how about filling in your profile like the rest of us ?
Patiently waiting to see how this unfolds ..
Filled it out, ping me with any questions.

Update: I scheduled a meeting for tomorrow with the team to review the site and actions taken. Some key members were traveling this weekend and today so I was unable to get in touch.

We will have a plan this week, thanks for the patience.

Jeff

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post #31 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 10:37 am
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Too little and too late. I was the third person to join this forum when we moved from Yahoo. It appears the new forum has really taken off and many have already made the move.

I now show as # 2 on the user list by date since Andy was kicked from the forum.

What a shame.

Ron
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735,834 miles on touring motorcycles since 1990

IBA 45658 MOA167437

2000 LTC 90,600 miles KIA (new)
2003 LTE 164,188 miles Silver (Purchased with 1687)
2008 R1200RT 176,196 miles (Purchased with 16458)
2017 R1200RT 84,612 miles (new)
Total BMW miles 497,451
1982 GL1100 rode 84108 miles (bought with 12012 sold 96120)
1988 GL1500 rode 12067 miles (bought with 19893 totaled 31960)
1989 GL1500 rode 142208 miles (bought with 20302 sold 162510)
Goldwing miles 238,383
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post #32 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 11:35 am Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDiver View Post
Life goes on and it would be a shame for all of this knowledge and friendship to simply vanish.
It won't vanish (well, except maybe for those technical posts by long-time contributing members that have been mass-deleted). At worst, it'll simply move to a different site, one that doesn't put its advertisers above its users . . .
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Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #33 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 12:59 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese View Post
It won't vanish (well, except maybe for those technical posts by long-time contributing members that have been mass-deleted). At worst, it'll simply move to a different site, one that doesn't put its advertisers above its users . . .
FYI - Any data that is not currently showing should be able to be restored.

I will keep you guys posted, talking to team tomorrow and will do everything I can to make things right.

PS - if anybody is every coming through Chicago hit me up, I will buy ya dinner/beer and we can chat.

Jeff
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post #34 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 1:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by VS Jeff View Post
FYI - Any data that is not currently showing should be able to be restored.
You mean all those older posts would return when you guys restore the banned accounts?

We wait patiently . . .
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Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #35 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 2:13 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Wow! this is so sad. I've only been around since 2005, but have made some great friends on this site, some virtual and others due to the RTEs here in lovely Tejas. It would be great to have Andy Randy & Steve back as well as the HOW. I'm a member of both Forums now, so will simply wait & see. I still can't see the PMs Andy and Dave Dragon sent me.

A wise old man once told me "A smart dog don't piss his own Post Toasties." Probably the best business advice I ever got. Our Administrating company would do well to learn the lesson.
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Benny C. (Central Texas)
2001 LTC Pacific Blue (Babe...the blue ox)
1986 Kawasaki Concours (Connie) sold
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post #36 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 2:30 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

I'm quite sure I don't know who Helena is...of Troy maybe?

I don't log in that much any more. I haven't compared the number of my posts to others, but I've posted my share. I like to think a few of those posts might have been helpful to someone.

I'm one of those who visited this site daily (sometimes, multiple times daily) since buying my K1200lt in 2000.

I met a lot of nice folks.
Enjoyed a few Curve Cowboy Reunions. (embarassed myself at most (all?) I attended.)

Bought a bunch of stuff I didn't know I needed because of this site.
Fixed a bunch of stuff on my bike that wasn't broken because of this site.

And I hope I made a contribution in my pursuit of understand final drive failures.

I pretty much saw "the writing on the wall" for this site with BMW's discontinuing the K1200LT in 2009 and the sale of this site from supporting membership to "professional" website ownership.

When folks bemoaned the loss of the picture of a K1200LT from the masthead of this site it was a recognition of changing times. While this site has had forums for other BMW models, it was primarily a K1200LT site. The K1200LT was the essence of "BMW Luxury Touring". The value of this site was the collective wisdom of K1200LT owners being shared in a gentlemanly manner. I saw it as the continuing tradition of BMW riders as "gentlemen motorcyclists" that I had come to know when I first joined BMW enthusiasts in the 1970s. It has been my pleasure to get to know a number of folks on this site, some whom I've never met, but feel close to none the same.

I won't attempt to list those folks who had the vision and industry to create this site, but my hat is off to you all. My thanks go out to the prime movers as well as the humble contributors who made this site what it was over the years.

My take on current events: The site has been sold to folks who hope to turn a profit on it. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with making a profit, I am a Randian advocate of Capitalism to the core. But consider the dynamics that surround this site: No one is buying new K1200LTs. There are no buyers of new K1200LT looking to buy accessories. Consequently, advertising revenue on this site has to be on the wane.

For other BMW models, there are well established forums and websites. This site isn't likely to compete successfully for web traffic for BMW models other than the K1200LT unless it can come up with a "unique factor" that separates itself from the group. Good luck with that. I wish that the site owners had the vision to make it succeed, but from what I've seen, I'm not holding my breath.

The greatest values of this site are two fold: 1) the archives of knowledge posted about the K1200LT; Everything from tires to speedometer. 2) the willingness of the "old guard" to share knowledge to new comers to the K1200LT.

On the first count, I've read posts that the technical files are no longer accessible; I don't know about that, I haven't gone looking for the technical files. But the Hall of Wisdom was (is?) on of the greatest assets of this site. If that information is no longer accessible, you've gotta be shi..ing me. What greater value does this site have?

On the second count, it seems to me, according to this thread, there is a mass defection going on, brought about by something I haven't bothered to try to fully understand. Well there goes the second most valuable asset of this site.

The reality of things as I see them is that this site isn't going to generate much advertising revenue. It was primarily a K1200LT site, a discontinued model. Folks who are buying K1200LTs now are buying them used at huge discounts. They're are getting one of the greatest motorcycles ever designed, but these are not the folks with deep pockets who are going to buy bundles of top dollar accessories. You have to target the K1600GT(L) and the GS crowd for that, and they seem to have their preferred websites. i.e. not this one.

So the owners of this site will try, using the methods of the "industry" to squeeze advertising dollars out of this site while it slowly (or rapidly) dies on the vine. That's why we may be seeing the "subversive" switching of links in posts and deletion of references unfavorable to the success of this site. Acts of desperation to be sure, but in the long haul, acts of self destruction it would seem.

The only reason it won't die faster is the devotion of all the long term members for whom this site has become part of life. But it seems to me these may be the very folks whom the current admin's are pissing off. And the site will be kept alive by new owners of used K1200LTs looking for help in understanding this remarkable motorcyle. Too bad there won't be any technical files for them to refer to, and none of the "old guard" to answer their questions.

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut

"Old soldiers never die, they just fade away." Douglas Macarthur
.... as will this site it seems.

Last edited by CharlieVT; Oct 6th, 2014 at 3:52 pm.
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post #37 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 3:05 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

The H O W appears to be intact but only someone with extensive knowledge of what should be in there would know for sure if some files are missing or not.
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Eric von Laue

3Cyl Kawa ( a long time ago)
450 Yamaha Seca ( maybe it was a Maxim )
1100 Honda Magna
650 Honda XR ( to Guatemala and back)
1990 Honda PC800 ( Mountain Mama )
2000 BMW 1200LT ( Maxamillion )

Keep the rubber side down
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post #38 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 3:27 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountianMama View Post
The H O W appears to be intact but only someone with extensive knowledge of what should be in there would know for sure if some files are missing or not.
Hijack

The HOW was off for a few days, the as important technical files were off line for a long time, Jzeiler worked with the admins for some time and got that corrected also.

At least there are for me..

Hijack off
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2005 BMW K1200LT
1979 Suzuki GS1000E
1978 Honda CB350
1975 Suzuki GT380
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post #39 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 3:36 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

[QUOTE=CharlieVT;1107313]

"….but these are not the folks with deep pockets who are going to buy bundles of top dollar accessories."

Although I agree with Charlie for the most part, I don't necessarily agree with his above statement - Since I bought my '07 LT in '12, I've spent almost $9,000 for top dollar accessories, including Spiegler brake lines, RDL seat, Yacugar shocks, Kathy's bags, Jiffy Tite QDs, Odyssey battery, BMR rack, Fix It Before It Breaks kit, AGATT gear, cooling vests (both evaporative and Veskimo versions), Aerostich cover, PIAAs, LDC shorts, Brake Light Flasher kit from Rider West, etc. Although the LT has been out of production for over 7 years, the secondary market will continue to exist for this bike and its accessories for some time to come, especially if new-to-LT riders continue to have access for Hall of Wisdom technical information and advice from this site's stalwarts, such as John Z, Katnappin, Sailor, Charlie, Saddleman, Meese, and many other long term contributors that I haven't been able to list off the top of my head.
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'16 K1600GTLE
'07 K1200LT (sold 9/24/16)
'74 Suzuki GT750L (long, long gone)


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post #40 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 3:45 pm
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

[QUOTE=JNW003;1107385]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT View Post

"….but these are not the folks with deep pockets who are going to buy bundles of top dollar accessories."

Although I agree with Charlie for the most part, I don't necessarily agree with his above statement - Since I bought my '07 LT in '12, I've spent almost $9,000 for top dollar accessories, including Spiegler brake lines, RDL seat, Yacugar shocks, Kathy's bags, Jiffy Tite QDs, Odyssey battery, BMR rack, Fix It Before It Breaks kit, AGATT gear, cooling vests (both evaporative and Veskimo versions), Aerostich cover, PIAAs, LDC shorts, Brake Light Flasher kit from Rider West, etc. Although the LT has been out of production for over 7 years, the secondary market will continue to exist for this bike and its accessories for some time to come, especially if new-to-LT riders continue to have access for Hall of Wisdom technical information and advice from this site's stalwarts, such as John Z, Katnappin, Sailor, Charlie, Saddleman, Meese, and many other long term contributors that I haven't been able to list off the top of my head.
Well I stand corrected.
Not only is it the first time, it is a matter of routine.

Web site "new guard", take note of the value of the "old guard".
Good luck.
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post #41 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 4:46 pm Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Dave,

I'm glad you're enjoying your "new" LT. It's a fine bike, to be sure, and I still think fondly of all the miles I rode and friends I met on mine. Honestly, it's the people that keep me coming back here . . .

But the problem is that some of the stalwarts that you mentioned have been specifically banned from this site, others have left already, and many more are collectively holding their breath to see how this all plays out.

So we'll just have to wait and see how they respond to the current kerfluffle, and how well the site recovers (or not), as most of the "talent" chooses (or is forced) to head elsewhere . . .
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Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #42 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 4:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: To Helena and the Admins

Well said, Charlie.

And make no mistake, your tireless efforts with the final drives and your extensive willingness to help out anyone who needs it firmly puts you in the camp of all-stars on this site.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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post #43 of 76 Old Oct 6th, 2014, 8:17 pm
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Brentwood, CA, USA
Posts: 5,849
Re: To Helena and the Admins

Well I see someone took away all my Admin rights (which I have had for many years) without any notice. Besides asking for an explanation of what happened around here, what did I do?
Is the ownership/new admin actually trying to drive members here away!

John & Cathy
Northern CA
01 K1200LTC Basalt - Moose


Posse #2

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If you don't know where you're going, you might end up somewhere else
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post #44 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 8:24 am
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , ,
Posts: 9,871
Re: To Helena and the Admins

"They" banned Randy, so why not us as well.
1st step, strip all useable admin/moderator rights.
johnbaker15 likes this.
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post #45 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 10:04 am
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Posts: 168
Garage
Re: To Helena and the Admins

Update -

@meese Helena should be sending you a PM and we have a plan and some questions for the Mods/Admins/banned members.

Keep an eye out for it soon.

Everybody hold tight for now until this is all sorted, thanks in advance.

Jeff

Jeff aka The Pun
Community Manager/Admin
Motorcycle.com
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post #46 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 10:11 am
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Posts: 1,566
Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT View Post
[snip]

"Old soldiers never die, they just fade away." Douglas Macarthur
.... as will this site it seems.
"Who wants to live forever?" -Freddie Mercury


Err ...


"Another one bites the dust." -Freddie Mercury

- Joe
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post #47 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 10:52 am Thread Starter
IBR# 366
 
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 16,390
Garage
Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by VS Jeff View Post
@meese Helena should be sending you a PM and we have a plan and some questions for the Mods/Admins/banned members.
Message received and forwarded on . . .
icepick and VS Jeff like this.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles and counting...
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles miles and counting...
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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All lower 48 states plus Alaska on the K13GT in two weeks . . .

Some people see the gas tank as half empty. Some see it as half full. All I care is that I know where the next tankful is coming from...
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meese is offline  
post #48 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 12:49 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kyle, Texas, USA
Posts: 8,597
Re: To Helena and the Admins

I'm back and ready to talk, to the admins . To everyone else thanks for all the support.

Stevie Shreeve
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post #49 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 4:55 pm
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hillsboro, OR, USA
Posts: 3,136
Wink Re: To Helena and the Admins

Glad to see ya back Stevie!

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by katnapinn View Post
I'm back and ready to talk, to the admins . To everyone else thanks for all the support.
katnapinn and Razmataz like this.

John & Marilyn Fisher
'00 K1200LTC "Katie"
'95 Triumph "Tigger"
'12 Triumph 800XC "Tigger II" (RIP)
'12 Triumph 1200 Explorer "Shadow Tigger"
Hillsboro, Oregon

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post #50 of 76 Old Oct 7th, 2014, 5:20 pm
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Location: Fulshear, TX, USA
Posts: 2,082
Re: To Helena and the Admins

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFish View Post
Glad to see ya back Stevie!

John
There goes the neighborhood!

Last edited by DanMartin; Oct 7th, 2014 at 5:22 pm. Reason: Sp
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