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post #1 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 3:26 pm Thread Starter
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BMW involved in high speed chase

I wonder what model? K1200S? R? New GT? Cause it couldn't have been one of those old pokey Flying Brick or Boxer BMWs.

http://www.craigdailypress.com/secti...ad/story/22113


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post #2 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 3:43 pm
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Maybe he thought he was in Montana?

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post #3 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 3:51 pm
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We can not chase, so here in my town he would've gotten away. Too dangous for all.
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post #4 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 4:04 pm
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if a new GT, then he's not following proper break-in procedures!

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post #5 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 4:24 pm
 
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"Fortunately, we had two more troopers in a position where they could intercept him before he killed himself or anyone else," Smith said.

Almost brings a tear to my eye the way the police 'protect and serve' us in this fashion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
We can not chase, so here in my town he would've gotten away. Too dangous for all.
Now THAT's a voice of reason!

Last edited by messenger13; Jun 3rd, 2006 at 4:39 pm. Reason: m587's comment
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post #6 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 5:57 pm
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That road has more deer on it than any road (especially between Rangely and Craig) I've ever been on anywhere in the world.... they're like freakin' rats - all OVER the place.

...wonder if he had deer whistles?


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post #7 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 6:13 pm
 
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"The chase quickly hit speeds well over 100 mph, Smith said."

I thought it said they clocked him at 107mph before the chase started? Seems like the chase started at speeds over 100mph, so that quote is kind of redundant.
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post #8 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 6:21 pm
 
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The media seems to think that "fast" begins at 100mph. But we all know that "fast" begins at 140! And LIFE begins at 160!!!
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post #9 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 6:33 pm
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My agency would not and could not chase the guy. They use HD's!!

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post #10 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 6:43 pm
 
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Question a-Hem!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
I wonder what model? K1200S? R? New GT? Cause it couldn't have been one of those old pokey Flying Brick or Boxer BMWs.
So . . . are you implying that the "new GT" can exceed 150mph?! And just how might you know this Jeffrey?! (Even if it's not true...lie to me!)
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post #11 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 9:53 pm
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Not Just Deer!

"That road has more deer on it than any road (especially between Rangely and Craig) I've ever been on anywhere in the world.... they're like freakin' rats - all OVER the place."

Two years ago I was touring on that very same stretch on my way from Steamboat Springs to Vernal. As we came around a curve, a farmer in an old pickup coming the other way was flashing his headlights at us. In Colorado, that only means one of two things: wildlife or a trooper ahead, and its usually wildlife. I was in the lead and immediately slowed down. As I came around the curve, I was feeling lucky I had ABS on the LT. A hear of bison was moving from one side of the road to the other, and what appeared to be the 'head bull' was standing in the middle of the road, straddling the center line. I was sitting on my LT on a beadrider plus an airhawk plus a thick sheepskin, and his shoulder was at my eye level. A few years ago, a Harley Rider in Yellowstone got too close to one of these beasts, and it gored and tossed him and his Dyna 25 feet (aside: a ranger at the time was asked by a reporter covering this story "how far can a buffalo toss a HD?", to which he replied: "How far do you want him to toss it?"). Anyway, I cannot imagine coming around a blind curve at 100+ and finding a herd of buffalo in the road. Scary. YMMV, but what an idiot.

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post #12 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 10:53 pm Thread Starter
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Remember my report from Red River. Let's just say I attained an "undisclosed" speed.


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post #13 of 50 Old Jun 3rd, 2006, 10:59 pm
 
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post #14 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 7:18 am
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This is what happened to a Florida Trooper two years ago:



Trooper Darryl Louis Haywood Sr.
Florida Highway Patrol
Florida
End of Watch: Saturday, October 2, 2004

Biographical Info
Age: 49
Tour of Duty: 24 years, 6 months
Badge Number: 1296

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Vehicle pursuit
Date of Incident: Saturday, October 2, 2004
Weapon Used: Not available
Suspect Info: Convicted ad sentenced to 30 years

Trooper Haywood was killed when his patrol car crashed during a pursuit.

He was pursuing a motorcycle on I-4, just east of State Road 44, in Volusia County. At about 1345 hours, Trooper Haywood was alerted to be on the lookout for a Porsche and a motorcycle racing at speeds of over 150 miles per hour in the eastbound lane of I-4. Trooper Haywood spotted the two vehicles, but both drivers pulled away at a high rate of speed. The Porsche escaped, but Trooper Haywood continued to try to stop the motorcyclist. During the pursuit, the right rear tire on Trooper Haywood's Chevrolet Camaro patrol car blew out and caused the patrol car to hit another vehicle. The patrol car then flipped several times and struck a tree on the south side of the interstate, killing Trooper Haywood.

The driver of the motorcycle was apprehended later in the day by deputies from the St. Johns County Sheriff Department. He was charged with felony aggravated fleeing and eluding. On October 18th, 2005, he was convicted of aggravated manslaughter, vehicular homicide and fleeing and eluding a law-enforcement officer and causing a death. On December 2nd, 2005, he was sentenced to 30 years in prison.

Trooper Haywood had served with the Florida Highway Patrol for four years, and had previously served with the New York City Police Department for 20 years, where he retired at the rank of Detective. Trooper Haywood was awarded the Florida Highway Patrol's Trooper of the Month for July 2004 for his life-saving actions in pulling a motorist from a burning vehicle.

He is survived by his wife, two children, and grandchildren.

View this officer's Reflections Leave a Reflection
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Or the link:
http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=17459

If you read the last line "He is survivied by his wife, two children, and grandchildren". Is the risk catching a violator for the the crime committed worth the life or death/injury of someone else?
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post #15 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 7:25 am
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Must have been the retarded kid that got smoked by the LT on his Ninja. So he went out traded for an LT and nabbed by the cops.
If a car is going one way and a bike is going the other at such a high rate of speed, how does the car catch the bike?
Just the numbers
At 150mph the bike would be travelling at 2+1/2 miles per minute. Ain't many bacon wagons can haul at that rate of speed. Smokie has to turn the car around, while they may have a leg up driving wise on the general public. They ain't no dead Ernhart or they would be on the NASCAR circuit making millions.
Many times these speed reports are very wrong by human error. Like the cop in the plane said the kid in Michigan was going a little over 200 MPH, Right.
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post #16 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 9:06 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
This is what happened to a Florida Trooper two years ago:
[snip]


That's a tragic story, obviously. But I can't believe that the assailant got 30 years! It wasn't his fault that the officer pursued. It wasn't his fault that the tire blew. UNBELIEVABLE!
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post #17 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 10:21 am
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According to the reports at the time, Trooper Haywood was westbound on I-4 when he spotted the duo going the other way. He then turned around in the median and attempted to pursue. I know that section of I-4 very well; the median is ~70-100 yards wide, with sections where the view is completely blocked by large stands of Pines and scrub brush. At 150 mph, I doubt either perp would have even seen the Trooper unless he was on their side of the highway. The spokesman for the Highway Patrol stated on the news that Haywood spotted them and then turned around in the median to pursue (based on his radio transmissions IIRC). Can you imagine how far behind the "race" this officer was within even a few seconds? The biker had no clue what happened behind him until they told him.

The loss of any officer in the line of duty is a tragedy for sure. The loss of a trooper with his experience is a blow to the FHP and the community as a whole. The loss for his family is unfathomable to me.

BUT

To convict this guy for "aggravated manslaughter, vehicular homicide and fleeing and eluding a law-enforcement officer and causing a death" is ludicrous IMO. That report is very selective in it's portrayal of the events that day. An officer died though, and someones gotta pay.

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post #18 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 11:36 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
That's a tragic story, obviously. But I can't believe that the assailant got 30 years! It wasn't his fault that the officer pursued. It wasn't his fault that the tire blew. UNBELIEVABLE!
He was breaking the law, he refused to stop for the police...all consequences that followed became his fault. That is the same in the commission of any crime, any harm or damage that results as a consequence of said crime is YOUR FAULT even if the harm or damage was not directly attributable to the perpatrator. That's the way it works...end of story.

Of COURSE it was his fault the officer pursued HE BROKE THE LAW, would a blow-out have killed the officer if it happened during a routine patrol? Maybe, but the officer would not have been in THAT place at THAT time when it happened had he not been in pursuit of that individual in violation of the law. If you want to engage in reckless driving by grossly exceeding speed limits fine, but be prepared to pay the price. The guy was an IDIOT for trying to out run the police, he should have stopped the moment he saw them...looks like it will be a long time before he gets another chance to ride again. And I say good, because the officer will never have a chance to do ANYTHING ever again.
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post #19 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 12:01 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
That's a tragic story, obviously. But I can't believe that the assailant got 30 years! It wasn't his fault that the officer pursued. It wasn't his fault that the tire blew. UNBELIEVABLE!
How many good LEOs would still be with us if people simply obeyed the laws?

Sorry Joe, it was his fault! Not only did he disobey the speed limit, he totally ignored God's written command in Romans 13:1-5.


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post #20 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 12:11 pm
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I am not going to say if the punishment fits the crime, however as a lawman and having vehicles flee from me, I have to take in account if it worth my life or others,to catch this person. If I can not gain on the vehicle, in the first few seconds,that I am attempting to stop I do not keep going. I will slow to reasonably speed and get on the radio. I have never and will never out ride my car or motorcycle's ablities, or mine. And again we have a "no pursuit" on motorcycle and a "no pursuit" for traffic violations.

Not saying that this troopers did anything wrong, it sad for his children and grandchildren. If I did not have children myself I probably would not be typing this. Being a "Daddy" has made me realize that getting the bad guy is not worth not seeing my children grow up. Do not get me wrong, I still get the bad guy, but have learned that there are other ways to arrest someone without having to chase them and putting the public or yourself in danger.

Case in point. We had a m/c in our town flee from two officer, seprate cases. The officer learned from another officer who this "kid" was. With some good police work found where he work. Stop by his work place and located the person. The "kid" confessed and charges added. No pursuit, no crash, nobody hurt. Does it work this way all the time, No. However no chase is worth a death.
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post #21 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 12:40 pm
 
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Ron, Chick,

You both need to go back and read hoog62's accounts of the FACTS, before pointing your fingers at the assailant. It sounds to me like he wasn't "fleeing" or "eluding" anything or anyone. If he was...I don't know it, nor either of you.

All I'm saying is with the facts given in this thread, I do not fault the motorcyclist for the death of that police officer. Real murderers and drug dealers are walking the streets and this guy is in prison for 30 years.

And for the record Chick . . . unless that man was a Christian, he is not under the scripture of Romans 13:1-5. If I'm wrong, please set me straight.
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post #22 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 1:27 pm
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It is kind of scary when I start agreeing with Joe, BUTT

While I agree that the guy 'running' from an officer is/was an idiot, and that he should be punished for what he did (driving WAY too fast) which I think can get you in jail, but not even in FL for 30 Years, he should be treated the same way e.g. a certain congressman from SD was treated when he ACTUALLY REALLY killed someone with a vehicle(100 day jail sentence). Or that blonde that killed another motorcyclist by rearending him($125 ticket), or that guy that went over the center line and KILLED !3! motorcyclists ($70 ticket).

I think the message that is being sent to the general public here is that is OK for someone to kill a motorcyclist. OR does it mean that the officer who choose to pursue (nobody forced him on gunpoint to do that) is "more equal" than other (law abiding) citizens of this counry?
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post #23 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 1:31 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
It is kind of scary when I start agreeing with Joe, BUTT
Be afraid...
Be VERY afraid!


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post #24 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 2:10 pm
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There's another facet that is missing here as well, is the kid on the motorcycle from a well respected (Read:RICH) family? I wager the answer is a HELL NO.
The officer was a trained professional, and in his professional opinion he thought himself capable of apprehending a suspect at high speed, no doubt because he was driving a camero "interceptor" and some ego played into his decision. It's my opinion that police should not be driving at high speeds on the roadways, especially when they are chasing some idiot and not a mass murderer or something, as there are so many innocent civilians involved.
I feel the Police should have attack helicopters to take out runners that won't stop. It angers me everytime I see or hear about someone being injured or killed by someone running from the Police. Much easier to follow in the helicopter and wait for them to get into a clearing and take them out, no "collateral damage" that way.
That said though, I don't think this kid should be held accountable for the Officers decision to pursue at such high speeds as the crash was a direct result of malfeasance on the part of the Police Force for not maintaining their pursuit vehicles properly.

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post #25 of 50 Old Jun 4th, 2006, 2:18 pm
 
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Originally Posted by KMC1
...as the crash was a direct result of malfeasance on the part of the Police Force for not maintaining their pursuit vehicles properly.
Or the officer running over something in the wide median.
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post #26 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 2:40 am
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"I think the message that is being sent to the general public here is that is OK for someone to kill a motorcyclist. OR does it mean that the officer who choose to pursue (nobody forced him on gunpoint to do that) is "more equal" than other (law abiding) citizens of this counry?"

This is wrong and I totally disagree with you posting this. This has peed me off and have now deleted two other post where I told you how I felt. I do not feel this is the message at all and you know it. This is how our system works. Like others stated this could have been about money, if could hire a good lawyer, but in no is this message. Again just like your SSN thread we do not know all the facts. We do not know what the probable cause was put this guy in jail. We do not have all the evidence to make comments like that. You are the one that I wish I would never read a thread again. Just like your SSN thread you make opinions, which are not supported. Just like someone killing motorcyclist in a red light case. You want a person to fined higher if he kills a motorcyclist than a person in a car??? Why? Isn't riding a motorcycle more risk??? You choose that risk??? How about if the motorcyclist is wearing a helmet or not??? The fine more or less???? Would that person have died if they were in a metal vehicle?????? Give me break. This was a good thread until you came along and done reading it cause it is going to go down hill after Andy posted that. Everyone was making good points, but Andy has shut me down, once again. Later.

Last edited by motorman587; Jun 5th, 2006 at 2:55 am.
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post #27 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 8:17 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
Isn't riding a motorcycle more risk??? You choose that risk???
Just like your choosing to be a LEO...right? It's a calcualted risk. Right? So why do crimnals suffer bigger punishments when something happens to a LEO? Hhmmn...

"To serve and protect" It seems to me that LEOs are "served and protected" more than civilians. Probably for good reasons.
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post #28 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 8:45 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Ron, Chick,

You both need to go back and read hoog62's accounts of the FACTS, before pointing your fingers at the assailant. It sounds to me like he wasn't "fleeing" or "eluding" anything or anyone. If he was...I don't know it, nor either of you.

All I'm saying is with the facts given in this thread, I do not fault the motorcyclist for the death of that police officer. Real murderers and drug dealers are walking the streets and this guy is in prison for 30 years.

And for the record Chick . . . unless that man was a Christian, he is not under the scripture of Romans 13:1-5. If I'm wrong, please set me straight.

Joe,

In spite of how I may have worded my comments it doesn't matter if the guy saw the officer or not. The point is his illegal activity was the direct cause of the officer's action...he died attempting to enforce the law and the person that was breaking the law was found responsible...that is responsible for a DEATH. That is the risk you take when you break ANY law in this country. The case went to trial and a judge and jury found enough credance in the facts to convict and sentence him to 30 years for it.
It's about personal responsibility, you want to play you have to pay. As far as I'm concerned second guessing the judgement of the officer is a weak and difficult defense in a case like this. The jury was convinced and a judge agreed. In the eyes of the law he IS a real murderer. If there are mitigating circumstances or if the sentence is unfair then maybe he'll have a chance on appeal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
It is kind of scary when I start agreeing with Joe, BUTT

While I agree that the guy 'running' from an officer is/was an idiot, and that he should be punished for what he did (driving WAY too fast) which I think can get you in jail, but not even in FL for 30 Years, he should be treated the same way e.g. a certain congressman from SD was treated when he ACTUALLY REALLY killed someone with a vehicle(100 day jail sentence). Or that blonde that killed another motorcyclist by rearending him($125 ticket), or that guy that went over the center line and KILLED !3! motorcyclists ($70 ticket).

I think the message that is being sent to the general public here is that is OK for someone to kill a motorcyclist. OR does it mean that the officer who choose to pursue (nobody forced him on gunpoint to do that) is "more equal" than other (law abiding) citizens of this counry?
Andy,

Apples and oranges. Each of those 3 cases make my blood boil but this is a different discussion. I refuse to believe that the second two cases couldn't have been prosecuted further, and the SD congressman was a pure and simple case of political favoritism, he sleazed his way out of punishment. As I understand it he made his political career on screaming for merciless punishment of law breakers...may he burn in hell for his hypocrisy.
But should we create sentencing guidelines on the least common denominator? I don't think that would be very effective. We should stand up a shout for equal protection under the law including equal punishment for the privileged. Groups like bikers need to stand together, show our outrage, and demand protection for all.

I wonder how many of the opinions here are swayed by the feeling that this one hit a little too close to home? There is a lot of discussion and joking about outrageous speed and "performance awards" on this site. Could it be that this is one of those laws that some are reluctant to see enforced because it could eventually be applied to THEM. I further wonder how many that want to see this kid get off have argued for mandatory sentencing without mercy for other types of crimes, you know, the ones they would never commit themselves. A police officer is dead because he responded to what he probably considered a very dangerous situation and most of these responses seem to be in defense of the law breaker...very interesting.
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post #29 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 8:52 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Just like your choosing to be a LEO...right? It's a calcualted risk. Right? So why do crimnals suffer bigger punishments when something happens to a LEO? Hhmmn...

"To serve and protect" It seems to me that LEOs are "served and protected" more than civilians. Probably for good reasons.
If for no other reason than to help reduce the risk to the LEO and increase the likelyhood of compliance. It is part of what we as a society to give them extra protection.

People choose to be soldiers and it's a calculated risk too...why do they deserve any more respect for what they choose to do or any more honor when they die doing it than the average joe who gets killed on the job? It is the same freaking thing!!! I don't understand why this is even a question.
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post #30 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 10:19 am
 
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Ron, You make a lot of sense, and all your points are very tough to argue with. Good job.
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post #31 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 10:28 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Just like your choosing to be a LEO...right? It's a calcualted risk. Right? So why do crimnals suffer bigger punishments when something happens to a LEO? Hhmmn...

"To serve and protect" It seems to me that LEOs are "served and protected" more than civilians. Probably for good reasons.
I agree and disagree. Would you loose your job for a DUI??? So some areas LEO do get puished differently and yes maybe in some areas there may be cases where the punishment is lighter, which I agree is not right.
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post #32 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 10:49 am
 
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Exclamation To the LEOs of our group...

I know this is heard to believe, but I do have the utmost respect for LEOs. I wave to every one of them when on my bike, and always get a friendly wave back. I call them "Sir" until told otherwise. Heck...I've even paid for their coffee when I knew they were getting it for free anyways. Just wanted to say "Thanks!".

And then...these threads get started and I come off sounding like some kind of Cop basher. I sincerely apologize for that. Please accept.
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post #33 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 10:56 am
 
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Originally Posted by messenger13
Ron, You make a lot of sense, and all your points are very tough to argue with. Good job.
...A strange feeling of surrealism is swirling about my head...

But seriously...thank you , Joe, I count that as high praise.
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post #34 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 2:08 pm
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Ron, I think you are overlooking your own point. The Officer decided to "play" but is not being held accountable for HIS actions (having to "pay"). True the kid was going fast etc. but the officer made the decision to chase, at that point he took the ownership of his future.
Also, it DOES hit home with many of us. First of all in most states there are laws governing high speed pursuit for safety reasons, I for one, don't feel any safer knowing a cop is willing to try to do 150mph in a 4000lb auto to give someone a reckless driving and speeding arrest. Chasing a mass murderer, yeah, OK I may let that slide, but some kid out blasting around? NO. So just for the safety aspect it bothers me.
Also, to be held accountable for someone elses decision is precisely the problem in our society. If the kid was aware he was being pursued, then I would side to the Officer, as once you've engaged the Police in pursuit you have taken the burden of responsibility, but to be put in jail for 30 years (!!!!!) because of someone elses decision that you're not even aware of? That's just insane. People don't go to jail in this country for 30 years for killing in cold blood during a robbery, a rape MIGHT buy you 5 to 10, vehicular manslaughter routinely gets off for less than 3... etc. etc. etc.
I also would like to know more about this kids background; arrest record, socio-economic standing, education level, race etc. As I am willing to bet he does not come from a family with political connections and/or any money and that adds to the hypocrisy of our judicial system, which in turn leads to a lowering of respect for our courts, laws and police.

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post #35 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 2:48 pm
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I'm new and don't post much but enjoy reading the opinions. This thread struck close. I wonder how the officer meeting a speeding vehicle identifies the driver as a murderer, bank robber, etc. or just a speeder. Yes he can decline to pursue. The officer who sees a person beating the heck out of someone can also turn his head and just drive on. Hey! no confrontation. Any time an officer gets involved bad things can happen. The routine vehicle stop escalates into a shooting situation. Same as a domestic situation where both parties jump the officer.

Helicopters would be nice. Hmmm how many would it take to cover the entire state of Fla. 24 X 7. Hell the officers can't be paid a decent salary so where would we get the $$ for helicopters.

As you can tell I am slightly biased I did the job for 34 years. Just remember police are primarily reactive. The are paid to react to situations. Yep, they could ignore but who decides which crimes the should ignore.. My .02
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post #36 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 4:25 pm
 
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Originally Posted by KMC1
Ron, I think you are overlooking your own point. The Officer decided to "play" but is not being held accountable for HIS actions (having to "pay"). True the kid was going fast etc. but the officer made the decision to chase, at that point he took the ownership of his future.
Also, it DOES hit home with many of us. First of all in most states there are laws governing high speed pursuit for safety reasons, I for one, don't feel any safer knowing a cop is willing to try to do 150mph in a 4000lb auto to give someone a reckless driving and speeding arrest. Chasing a mass murderer, yeah, OK I may let that slide, but some kid out blasting around? NO. So just for the safety aspect it bothers me.
Also, to be held accountable for someone elses decision is precisely the problem in our society. If the kid was aware he was being pursued, then I would side to the Officer, as once you've engaged the Police in pursuit you have taken the burden of responsibility, but to be put in jail for 30 years (!!!!!) because of someone elses decision that you're not even aware of? That's just insane. People don't go to jail in this country for 30 years for killing in cold blood during a robbery, a rape MIGHT buy you 5 to 10, vehicular manslaughter routinely gets off for less than 3... etc. etc. etc.
I also would like to know more about this kids background; arrest record, socio-economic standing, education level, race etc. As I am willing to bet he does not come from a family with political connections and/or any money and that adds to the hypocrisy of our judicial system, which in turn leads to a lowering of respect for our courts, laws and police.
I stand by my comments. You break the law and you own all the consequences. The jury was convinced that it was his fault, and the judge was convinced that he deserved 30 years. If either of those decisions were wrong or outrageous then I hope he wins a sentence reduction on appeal. But that is not the main argument here, the main argument is over responsibility for the incident...that it was not his fault the officer pursued and got killed doing it because the officer made the decision to "play". IMO that is a completely indefensible argument for any number of reasons.

As for the rest of it, regarding social status and the like, I actually agree completely. If he can show he was given unequal treatment because of his status then maybe he has grounds for an appeal of his sentence. As I said in my earlier post such favoritism (and inequity) makes my blood boil! I just don't think it's a valid reason for letting him off the hook.
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post #37 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 6:38 pm
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Let's say I'm doing 80 in a 55 (NONE of us do that though thankfully ) and I get pulled over by a cop who then arrests me for killing an officer who pulled out of the median and into the path of a car/truck he did not see several miles back. It would seem I would then be responsible for the officers death?
I can't agree at all that I am responsible for the actions and decisions of another person, particularly so when it involves doing something that inherently carries it's own risk i.e. driving a motor vehicle. Up to the point I engage in pursuit it's the officers decision and responsibility to conduct himself/herself in a manner which does not endanger himself or the public.
Once I'm engaging the officer, all bets are off.
As far as helicopters go, we could afford it, but with our wimpy liberal government we can't even get the manpower we need for the police and homeland security, so I know that's never gonna happen. But I bet it sure would cut down on the high speed chases if we did have em!

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post #38 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 7:54 pm
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I think there is more to the story than that. I believe this kid kept going and fled from several officers than the one that was killed. My guess do not have details.
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post #39 of 50 Old Jun 5th, 2006, 9:56 pm
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Originally Posted by motorman587
This is wrong and I totally disagree with you posting this. This has peed me off and have now deleted two other post where I told you how I felt. I do not feel this is the message at all and you know it.
Hhmmm, let me see: I KNOW it? You have the right to be pissed off and so do I. Thanksfully this is a free country and we are allowed to voice our opinions, and this is what I am doing every now and then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
This is how our system works.
This is how the system works? One can ACTUALLY kill and gets away with 100 days, and another where it is NOT proven he even knew about the pursuit (read my initial post, and you'll see I said he SHOULD be punished for what he did) gets 30 years? 'scuse me? You see that as being treated as EQUAL? Really?

I don't disagree with the fact that the judge and the jury saw him as guilty, but does that change the fact that it even says in the constitution that everybody should be treated equally by the law? Hhmmmm...

You can ague all day long that this guy "CAUSED" this troopers very unfortunate untimely death, *I* and many others don't get that point, especially when confronted with those other cases which were also handled by "our system" and really and DIRECTLY caused someone to die AND ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mptprman
... Again just like your SSN thread ... Just like your SSN thread
LOL, That really got you on the wrong side of the bed, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman
... you make opinions, which are not supported. Just like someone killing motorcyclist in a red light case. You want a person to fined higher if he kills a motorcyclist than a person in a car??? Why? Isn't riding a motorcycle more risk??? You choose that risk??? How about if the motorcyclist is wearing a helmet or not??? The fine more or less???? Would that person have died if they were in a metal vehicle?????? Give me break. This was a good thread until you came along and done reading it cause it is going to go down hill after Andy posted that. Everyone was making good points, but Andy has shut me down, once again. Later.
Now you lost me. I don't MAKE opinions, I have one (and am entitled to, so are you) Nowhere have I said that someone should be fined higher/more/worse, I have always asked to be treated just like the next guy. No matter if I have a beard, a clump foot or a hump, or breasts(not me) If you take the time to read my initial post very carefully, you will see that I said the guy should be punished. But 30 years? You think this is fair? Equal treatment?
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post #40 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 1:31 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
This is wrong and I totally disagree with you posting this. This has peed me off and have now deleted two other post where I told you how I felt.
Is Andy deleting posts again???

Well, at least you received a reply...

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...9271#post49271

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post #41 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 4:47 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
Hhmmm, let me see: I KNOW it? You have the right to be pissed off and so do I. Thanksfully this is a free country and we are allowed to voice our opinions, and this is what I am doing every now and then.



This is how the system works? One can ACTUALLY kill and gets away with 100 days, and another where it is NOT proven he even knew about the pursuit (read my initial post, and you'll see I said he SHOULD be punished for what he did) gets 30 years? 'scuse me? You see that as being treated as EQUAL? Really?

I don't disagree with the fact that the judge and the jury saw him as guilty, but does that change the fact that it even says in the constitution that everybody should be treated equally by the law? Hhmmmm...

You can ague all day long that this guy "CAUSED" this troopers very unfortunate untimely death, *I* and many others don't get that point, especially when confronted with those other cases which were also handled by "our system" and really and DIRECTLY caused someone to die AND ...


LOL, That really got you on the wrong side of the bed, huh?



Now you lost me. I don't MAKE opinions, I have one (and am entitled to, so are you) Nowhere have I said that someone should be fined higher/more/worse, I have always asked to be treated just like the next guy. No matter if I have a beard, a clump foot or a hump, or breasts(not me) If you take the time to read my initial post very carefully, you will see that I said the guy should be punished. But 30 years? You think this is fair? Equal treatment?
I have work fatality crashes were I have just written a ticket or none at all. I have seen were a lady lawyer kills two drunk and only gets 5 years. I had a DUI drunk get 15 years. OJ got off. But to say that because punishment was stiffer because he was a LEO is not correct. You have nothing to back that up. I truly believe that if we had all the evidence you would see this person had put a lot people lives in danger. I think he fled from numerous officers , not just the trooper, so he scored higher than a normal manslaughter charge. Believe it or not the crime is higher if you injury/kill a police officer in the line of duty. The punishment is higher if you injury/kill a police dog or horse. I try to read all your post carefully, but you like to challenge the police. You think cops are treated differently. I can tell you we do not. I have gotten speeding tickets. I can not smoke on the job, I have to live within 35 miles from the city. I carry a gun off duty, which you think would be to get out of tickets. No, it is in case I have to stop a crime in progress or make sure I can protect myself or my family in case I bump into someone I have arrested. And I bet nothing has come about your SSN thread, were you believe your rights were violated. You fire your opinion without any backing.

Last edited by motorman587; Jun 6th, 2006 at 4:54 am.
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post #42 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 7:42 am
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I think everyone can agree that the kid was wrong and should be punished, 30 years? I do not think so. If you have evr went that fast on a motorcycle you know that he most likely did not see the cops chasing him. At that speed the road is aweful narrow and looking in your buzzing mirrors will do no good. I am not protecting him just stating the facts. He could have easily killed himself and several innocent bystanders.
I also think it should be crimminal for a cop to go that speed to catch a speeder, Maybe more justified to catch a terrorist or killer. A helicopter would have been nice, But we all know the radio is very effective also. I just can't imagine going 150mph in a Camaro, Police edition or not.Sorry but they are crap. That 4000 pound missile could have just as easily take out many bystanders. The cop does not make enough to risk his life over a speeder either. And finally, Our judicial system sucks, Better than most but it still sucks. It will always be that way while we have corrupt people and lawyers

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post #43 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 7:57 am
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Has anyone here thought about the consequences if the officer had ignored the violation and this cyclist had gone on and killed or injured himself or others?
Wether or not he was wealthy or not, some lawyer would have represented his cause and sued the agency/government for the officer's neglect.
It has happened. This is one of the many things that agencies have had to weigh in when drafting their pursuit policies.
I was a LEO for 27 yrs.. I was in several chases and I know the adrenaline rush that affects all humans in times of stress. Dont let the uniform fool you, Cops are human. If you want to know what it is like to live in a fish bowl then become a cop. A somewhat restrictive life compared to most but we know that going in. That fact kinda burns me when cops get into trouble due to their own actions then cry.
As to the 30 years sentence being to severe I can't say as I did not hear the evidence as the court did. I also hate it when people are tried and convicted by the press. Take the Duke Univ. LaCrosse player's rape charges. The pictures of people putting up posters indicating that they know all of the facts and have publicly convicted the accused.
But my point is that I'm not sure if the sentence for the Florida kid is to severe . I do believe that the real injustice was the sentenced received by the Dakota legislator. I do not believe however that giving the kid a reduced sentence based on this is really serving justice.
Please you guys, Ride Safe!

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post #44 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 8:30 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjaun2
He could have easily killed himself and several innocent bystanders.
That is exactly why he got 30 years!

This reasoning of "he didn't know he was being chased" holds no water with me.

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post #45 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 12:00 pm
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Is Andy deleting posts again???
Huh? Me, deleting posts? You should read his post more carefully. John himself deleted a post he made.
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post #46 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 12:05 pm
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Originally Posted by Ted
That is exactly why he got 30 years!

This reasoning of "he didn't know he was being chased" holds no water with me.
Mind you, I am NOT defending this guy, BUTT

"he could have" gets you thirty years? How often did you break the law by going faster than the speed limit and this "could have injured someone" ...
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post #47 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 12:12 pm
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Originally Posted by motorman587
You think cops are treated differently. I can tell you we do not. I have gotten speeding tickets. I can not smoke on the job, I have to live within 35 miles from the city.
I am not sure where you get your information from, especially about all the things you know I do or think. I can tell you though that you are dead wrong in your believes about what I fell, do, think and believe. Mayhaps it would be good if you stop assuming you KNOW what I feel, do, think or believe.

Quote:
And I bet nothing has come about your SSN thread, were you believe your rights were violated. You fire your opinion without any backing.
That reminds me: Until today I was thinking of letting that slide, and not file an official complaint about a LEO breaking the law. But I think I will not let it slide. Thanks for reminding me. I really believe that everybody should be treated equally, LEO or not.
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post #48 of 50 Old Jun 6th, 2006, 12:29 pm
 
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Originally Posted by KMC1
Let's say I'm doing 80 in a 55 (NONE of us do that though thankfully ) and I get pulled over by a cop who then arrests me for killing an officer who pulled out of the median and into the path of a car/truck he did not see several miles back. It would seem I would then be responsible for the officers death?
I can't agree at all that I am responsible for the actions and decisions of another person, particularly so when it involves doing something that inherently carries it's own risk i.e. driving a motor vehicle. Up to the point I engage in pursuit it's the officers decision and responsibility to conduct himself/herself in a manner which does not endanger himself or the public.
Once I'm engaging the officer, all bets are off.
As far as helicopters go, we could afford it, but with our wimpy liberal government we can't even get the manpower we need for the police and homeland security, so I know that's never gonna happen. But I bet it sure would cut down on the high speed chases if we did have em!
Yes, you just might be held responsible for the officers death in the incident you cite. It would depend on the exact circumstances of your infraction and the officer's reaction, the laws of the state you are in, the ability of the prosecuter to bring it to trial and subsequently convince the jury that what you did and the result fit the definition of a crime in said state beyond a reasonable doubt.

My point in this entire endless discussion has been that the general legal concept in this country is that if you violate the law you can be held accountable for all the resulting consequences, direct or indirect, expected or not. The application of that concept varies from state to state but it is regularly used to convict minor players in major crimes.

My concern is that so many people on this board regularly ride at extreme speed and may be the next in line for such a dubious "performance award"...far beyond any cash fine.
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post #49 of 50 Old Jun 12th, 2006, 2:01 pm
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So What

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Ron, Chick,

You both need to go back and read hoog62's accounts of the FACTS, before pointing your fingers at the assailant. It sounds to me like he wasn't "fleeing" or "eluding" anything or anyone. If he was...I don't know it, nor either of you.

All I'm saying is with the facts given in this thread, I do not fault the motorcyclist for the death of that police officer. Real murderers and drug dealers are walking the streets and this guy is in prison for 30 years.

And for the record Chick . . . unless that man was a Christian, he is not under the scripture of Romans 13:1-5. If I'm wrong, please set me straight.
The cop exceeded his limitations and is now out of the gene pool.
Cops are people just the same as anyone else, there are good and bad, smart and not so smart.
I put forth the claim that in his bootlegger turn from one direction to the other, across a grass/trash medial strip. The cop damaged his tire sidewall, thus causing the blowout when enough heat was generated, resulting in death.
Is it the guys fault, no. Does God expect you to follow those that swear and oath and break it? I don't think so, I could be wrong.
How was this (RIP) officer protecting the public by chasing a bike that he can not catch? A Chevy Camero, get real sounds more like he got his Irish up and it cost him his life.
Rock

Last edited by UncleRock; Jun 12th, 2006 at 2:00 pm. Reason: spelling
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post #50 of 50 Old Jun 13th, 2006, 7:47 am
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Lawyer must have sucked

After rereading the official account, I stand by my post.
It was the right rear that blew, the tire that takes 70%+ of the pressure in a bootleg turn.
This guy must have had a crappy lawyer, who did not go through the trouble of hiring an accident reconstruction specialist.
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