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post #1 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 10:35 am Thread Starter
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Who is at fault?

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1471585

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post #2 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 11:15 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

I don,t understand

The guy in the SUV seemed to be minding is own business when the motorcycle cut him off and hit the brakes. Stupid move in my opinion no matter what the SUV might have done to him. There is no way a MC willt win any kind of physical contact with any type of car.

I can understand why the SUV driver got scared and left. These guys are acting like they own the road.

Not a good image for motorcycles

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post #3 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 11:17 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

No it isn't, but I am trolling for the idiot that sides with the bikers... Seriously though, if that happened in AZ, it would have been different, but then again, may be it wouldn't have happened. The PRNY is fertile ground for victimization.

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post #4 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 11:36 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Generally, I avoid these kinds of threads or posts because of the lack of information. "I didn't see it happen, I can't suppose what happened by hearsay."

The missing information is what lead to that rider wanting the SUV to bump him?

Based solely on what the video shows, the gang on bikes. No question. The rider that "got bumped" instigated it by carefully watching his speed and slowing to cause the bump.

Regardless how they arrived at that point - once the pack clearly went after him and his family - the driver of the SUV feared for his and his families safety and was justified in using deadly force. I counted 30 bikes before I lost track. That's more than a little intimidating and when the gang starts getting off their bikes - dropping them in the street for the sole purpose of mounting an attack on the SUV driver - from that point on - the SUV driver was clearly justified in the use of deadly force.

When the rider first got off his bike to open the drivers door - had that been me - he would have met gun fire and would not have survived.

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post #5 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 11:41 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaikens
Generally, I avoid these kinds of threads or posts because of the lack of information. "I didn't see it happen, I can't suppose what happened by hearsay."

The missing information is what lead to that rider wanting the SUV to bump him?

Based solely on what the video shows, the gang on bikes. No question. The rider that "got bumped" instigated it by carefully watching his speed and slowing to cause the bump.

Regardless how they arrived at that point - once the pack clearly went after him and his family - the driver of the SUV feared for his and his families safety and was justified in using deadly force. I counted 30 bikes before I lost track. That's more than a little intimidating and when the gang starts getting off their bikes - dropping them in the street for the sole purpose of mounting an attack on the SUV driver - from that point on - the SUV driver was clearly justified in the use of deadly force.

When the rider first got off his bike to open the drivers door - had that been me - he would have met gun fire and would not have survived.
I have to wonder why he had the door unlocked. Most cars I know of auto lock when the car is first under way. The thing is, in NYC, deadly force laws aren't like they are in Texas, AZ or most sane states, so even if he was armed and used it, they might charge him.

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post #6 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 11:43 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Stupid is as stupid does.......
Ever notice how stupid people get when the crowd mentality takes over.

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post #7 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 12:21 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch
I have to wonder why he had the door unlocked. Most cars I know of auto lock when the car is first under way. The thing is, in NYC, deadly force laws aren't like they are in Texas, AZ or most sane states, so even if he was armed and used it, they might charge him.
It's very likely that Range Rover didn't have automatic door locks or they may not have been configured to lock automatically. However, that's really reaching deep in this issue. Whether the doors were locked or not is not relative to the fact that the driver was being attacked.

Also note the fact that I said "had that been me". Another fact: had that been me, I would NOT have been in Manhattan, NY.

I appreciate you pointing out the deadly force laws in NYC, Ponch. However, EVEN in NYC - he can not be convicted under use of deadly force laws.

New York State Laws:
Penal Part 1 Title C – Defenses: Article 35 - Defense of Justification
35.00 - Justification; a defense.
35.05 - Justification; generally.
35.10 - Justification; use of physical force generally.
35.15 - Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
35.20 - Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
35.25 - Justification; use of physical force to prevent or terminate larceny or criminal mischief.
35.27 - Justification; use of physical force in resisting arrest prohibited.
35.30 - Justification; use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape.

Lastly, I make it a point to avoid any place that I can't protect myself and my family. NYC is so high on my list it's not funny - and for more reason than that.....

Definition added: N.Y. PEN. LAW § 35.05 : NY Code - Section 35.05: Justification; generally:

Unless otherwise limited by the ensuing provisions of this article
defining justifiable use of physical force, conduct which would
otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal when:
1. Such conduct is required or authorized by law or by a judicial
decree, or is performed by a public servant in the reasonable exercise
of his official powers, duties or functions; or
2. Such conduct is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an
imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a
situation occasioned or developed through no fault of the actor, and
which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of
intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding such
injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought
to be prevented by the statute defining the offense in issue. The
necessity and justifiability of such conduct may not rest upon
considerations pertaining only to the morality and advisability of the
statute, either in its general application or with respect to its
application to a particular class of cases arising thereunder. Whenever
evidence relating to the defense of justification under this subdivision
is offered by the defendant, the court shall rule as a matter of law
whether the claimed facts and circumstances would, if established,
constitute a defense.

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post #8 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 4:21 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

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post #9 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 10:24 pm
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Video

Biker Terrorists. I'm watching Mad Max.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=wNOyDMzn2bY

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post #10 of 36 Old Sep 30th, 2013, 11:26 pm
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Re: Video

I'd like to know how THAT ended. Good grief.
I doubt we'll ever know the whole story - like why the first guy on the bike stopped in front of the car.

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post #11 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 8:18 am
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Re: Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
I'd like to know how THAT ended. Good grief.
I doubt we'll ever know the whole story - like why the first guy on the bike stopped in front of the car.
here is more...good grief...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1471585

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post #12 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 8:49 am
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Re: Video

Wow! Intentionally cut off a driver, hit the brakes, when he stops because of the accident, surround his vehicle and start beating on it. He's siting there with his wife & baby not knowing if you intend to kill him & his family or what you're doing so he flees.

As far as I'm concerned, the broken legs are on the gang as well as the assault on the driver later on. Sorry, pastor, what was your son doing with a group who created a situation where a motorist had to run over bikes & people to flee for his life and the life of his family. And you want sympathy?!?!

Sorry about the rant, folks. this one makes my blood boil.

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post #13 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 10:32 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amarider
Stupid is as stupid does.......
Ever notice how stupid people get when the crowd mentality takes over.
I with you on the "crowd mentality". That is the reason I no longer do group rides (over 5). It's difficult enough to watch out for myself..... let alone some rider who rides to impress the group..

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post #14 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 10:38 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwo
I with you on the "crowd mentality". That is the reason I no longer do group rides (over 5). It's difficult enough to watch out for myself..... let alone some rider who rides to impress the group..

Chris Ogle

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post #15 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 10:44 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaikens
It's very likely that Range Rover didn't have automatic door locks or they may not have been configured to lock automatically. However, that's really reaching deep in this issue. Whether the doors were locked or not is not relative to the fact that the driver was being attacked.

Also note the fact that I said "had that been me". Another fact: had that been me, I would NOT have been in Manhattan, NY.

I appreciate you pointing out the deadly force laws in NYC, Ponch. However, EVEN in NYC - he can not be convicted under use of deadly force laws.

New York State Laws:
Penal Part 1 Title C – Defenses: Article 35 - Defense of Justification
35.00 - Justification; a defense.
35.05 - Justification; generally.
35.10 - Justification; use of physical force generally.
35.15 - Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
35.20 - Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
35.25 - Justification; use of physical force to prevent or terminate larceny or criminal mischief.
35.27 - Justification; use of physical force in resisting arrest prohibited.
35.30 - Justification; use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape.

Lastly, I make it a point to avoid any place that I can't protect myself and my family. NYC is so high on my list it's not funny - and for more reason than that.....

Definition added: N.Y. PEN. LAW § 35.05 : NY Code - Section 35.05: Justification; generally:

Unless otherwise limited by the ensuing provisions of this article
defining justifiable use of physical force, conduct which would
otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal when:
1. Such conduct is required or authorized by law or by a judicial
decree, or is performed by a public servant in the reasonable exercise
of his official powers, duties or functions; or
2. Such conduct is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an
imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a
situation occasioned or developed through no fault of the actor, and
which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of
intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding such
injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought
to be prevented by the statute defining the offense in issue. The
necessity and justifiability of such conduct may not rest upon
considerations pertaining only to the morality and advisability of the
statute, either in its general application or with respect to its
application to a particular class of cases arising thereunder. Whenever
evidence relating to the defense of justification under this subdivision
is offered by the defendant, the court shall rule as a matter of law
whether the claimed facts and circumstances would, if established,
constitute a defense.
I lived in NY for 40 years. My comments about locking the door extend to making it only a little more difficult for someone to get in and more airtight when their ticket is punched.

From my experience, NYC pistol instructors have taught in the past, that a citizen has the duty to retreat. It could be sentiment, it could be law. NYC has more restrictive laws than the state, which is permissible. There is no stand your ground law in NYS. I would also say is there is a difference between physical force and deadly physical force. Again, had this happened in Texas or AZ, the results would likely be different, but then may be a group of hooligans wouldn't pull that here, knowing that they'd be accountable for their stupidity.

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post #16 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 11:24 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

When they almost got him stopped the second time, one idiot pulls his bike out in front of him, and I'm thinking how dumb can you get? He's already proven he'll run over your dumb ass. Looks like he got kind of lucky and only got knocked over vs run over. It will be interesting to see how many bikers if any get arrested.

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post #17 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 11:27 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razmataz
When they almost got him stopped the second time, one idiot pulls his bike out in front of him, and I'm thinking how dumb can you get? He's already proven he'll run over your dumb ass. Looks like he got kind of lucky and only got knocked over vs run over. It will be interesting to see how many bikers if any get arrested.
It's been reported they found and arrested one so far.

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post #18 of 36 Old Oct 1st, 2013, 11:33 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch
From my experience, NYC pistol instructors have taught in the past, that a citizen has the duty to retreat. It could be sentiment, it could be law. NYC has more restrictive laws than the state, which is permissible. There is no stand your ground law in NYS. I would also say is there is a difference between physical force and deadly physical force. Again, had this happened in Texas or AZ, the results would likely be different, but then may be a group of hooligans wouldn't pull that here, knowing that they'd be accountable for their stupidity.
You're correct. However, It's not sentiment.

New York State is not an Affirmative Defense State, there is no legal way to provide for Stand Your Ground Laws. In addition in New York State, you are under the legal obligation to retreat when not in your own home and it’s safe to do so.

That's exactly what the driver of that vehicle did - he used his vehicle to escape his attackers to the best of his ability. If charges are ever filed against him - I would be even more amazed at the ignorance and stupidity of authorities in that state - and city - than I am now, and that's REALLY saying something.

I would encourage anyone that may travel to any state - especially if they choose to protect themselves under the laws of the United States - to check out your rights in those states on one of my web sites - http://www.handgunlaw.us to see how to verify those rights.

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post #19 of 36 Old Oct 2nd, 2013, 3:48 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

7 Video's

Here's about an hour of video of these guys on the bikes breaking every law you can think of, only takes one ass to cause hell for everyone but in this case there were several. Check out the 4th video down the page, In one of these vids their blocking an intersection which has a green light and they are knocking off mirrors and hitting the car creating havoc. So the suv was not the first.


http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the...427/1436603736

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post #20 of 36 Old Oct 2nd, 2013, 4:35 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

This is a little off the topic but NYC is pretty much a no handgun zone - ( Unless youre a criminal, and then you can buy and carry whatever you want.) Even a NY State licensed Pistol Permit Holder is barred from carrying in NYC. You might get a Premise Permit down there, but you still can't take it outside legally.

Westchester, Putnam, Nassau and Suffolk are giving a Permit with restrictions that limit carrying to Hunting and Target shooting. (a business owner carrying large amounts of cash could apply for a Full Carry, again outside of NYC)..

NY does not have any Reciprical Permits, so even if your legal where you live, you still can't carry in NY State, and might be subject to arrest if caught.

Had he opened up on that group he'd be in a lot of trouble. Right now the Police Commissioner still says he isn't being charged, but he'll probably lose everything he has once that bikers family gets him into Civil Court.

the PD had over 200 calls about that bunch of Riders before that final incident and had arrested some of them at road blocks earlier.

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post #21 of 36 Old Oct 2nd, 2013, 10:50 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

Fortunately there were no K1200LTs in the video

I do empathize with the parents only because I know that despite the best teaching at home, kids can do stupid things to hurt themselves and disgrace their families.


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post #22 of 36 Old Oct 3rd, 2013, 3:23 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Small cock terrorism.
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post #23 of 36 Old Oct 3rd, 2013, 8:19 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Another update on this from this mornings paper says that the PD was aware that this "event" was planned and that the "Hollywood Stuntz" would then post the tricks and mayhem on You Tube.

It sounds like the PD were set up or at least on the look out around the City looking for these stunt riders, had arrested 15 and confiscated 55 bikes before this final incident.

Ride Safe,

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post #24 of 36 Old Oct 3rd, 2013, 10:34 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaikens
Generally, I avoid these kinds of threads or posts because of the lack of information. "I didn't see it happen, I can't suppose what happened by hearsay."

The missing information is what lead to that rider wanting the SUV to bump him?

Based solely on what the video shows, the gang on bikes. No question. The rider that "got bumped" instigated it by carefully watching his speed and slowing to cause the bump.

Regardless how they arrived at that point - once the pack clearly went after him and his family - the driver of the SUV feared for his and his families safety and was justified in using deadly force. I counted 30 bikes before I lost track. That's more than a little intimidating and when the gang starts getting off their bikes - dropping them in the street for the sole purpose of mounting an attack on the SUV driver - from that point on - the SUV driver was clearly justified in the use of deadly force.

When the rider first got off his bike to open the drivers door - had that been me - he would have met gun fire and would not have survived.

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post #25 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 8:19 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

The vast majority of people don't ride motorcycles. This type of activity makes it pretty easy to understand how we get laws that impact our ability to enjoy riding. Unfortunately the specifics won't matter much but the perception of motorcyclists in general will take another negative hit largely from ourselves. The fact that it is a very small irresponsible segment of ridership will mean very little.

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post #26 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

Watching the video several times, it looks as though the motorcyclist is having a verbal exchange with the driver of the SUV before he pulls in front of him and slows down, thereby getting hit. If there was a verbal exchange would that possibly account for what happened next? I am not trying to lay any blame on the SUV driver, just trying to figure out why the motorcyclist did what he did.

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Chris

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post #27 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 3:45 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus
just trying to figure out why the motorcyclist did what he did.
That's what that group does. They stop traffic so they can "own" the road for their stunts. Then they film and post on You Tube.

Just Go
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post #28 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 3:48 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus
Watching the video several times, it looks as though the motorcyclist is having a verbal exchange with the driver of the SUV before he pulls in front of him and slows down, thereby getting hit. If there was a verbal exchange would that possibly account for what happened next? I am not trying to lay any blame on the SUV driver, just trying to figure out why the motorcyclist did what he did.
There are links here, I think, to other videos of before the incident. If they aren't, you can look them up. Those guys were looking for trouble all day and found it.

Ponch


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post #29 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 4:23 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

It gets better: http://nypost.com/2013/10/04/underco...kers-beat-dad/

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post #30 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 10:10 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

From WAY down, buried in the bottom of the story...

"Meanwhile, the only biker injured during the rampage threatened he may sue Lien for running him over with the Range Rover when he hit the gas as his SUV was first surrounded.

“He was attempting to diffuse the situation,” lawyer Gloria Allred said of Edwin Mieses, 32, whom she said may be paralyzed from the waist down “for the rest of his life.”

Mieses hasn’t had a valid license in his home state of Massachusetts since 1999, and haas never applied for a motorcycle license."


Yeah, right. They were on their way to church to play BINGO, got lost, and Cruz was only trying to ask the SUV driver for directions. And the one that opened the car door during the second stop and the ones bashing the car windows at the end were just wanting to apologize for Cruz's inappropriate timing and impeding traffic.

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post #31 of 36 Old Oct 4th, 2013, 10:29 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee510
From WAY down, buried in the bottom of the story...

"Meanwhile, the only biker injured during the rampage threatened he may sue Lien for running him over with the Range Rover when he hit the gas as his SUV was first surrounded.

“He was attempting to diffuse the situation,” lawyer Gloria Allred said of Edwin Mieses, 32, whom she said may be paralyzed from the waist down “for the rest of his life.”

Mieses hasn’t had a valid license in his home state of Massachusetts since 1999, and haas never applied for a motorcycle license."


Yeah, right. They were on their way to church to play BINGO, got lost, and Cruz was only trying to ask the SUV driver for directions. And the one that opened the car door during the second stop and the ones bashing the car windows at the end were just wanting to apologize for Cruz's inappropriate timing and impeding traffic.
I am surprised Ron Kuby hasn't been retained. Reminds me of the 4 thugs that surrounded Bernard Goetz. They only asked him how he was and if he had $5. Right. They got their comeuppance.

Ponch


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post #32 of 36 Old Oct 5th, 2013, 7:21 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Gloria Alred is pretty much the new Ron Kuby. It's a shame, no matter how it all started and who did what, in a blink of an eye that SUV guys whole life is changed forever.

He probably will lose everything he ever had or ever will have because he happened to be on the road at the same time that these idiots were out stunting in the middle of the highway.

Another crazy story coming out last night on the news, has an off duty NYC Detective as one of the riders in that same group, and apparently he was present during the final beat down.,

It just keeps getting worse....

Ride Safe,

Bob
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post #33 of 36 Old Oct 5th, 2013, 7:40 am
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firenailer
Another crazy story coming out last night on the news, has an off duty NYC Detective as one of the riders in that same group, and apparently he was present during the final beat down.,

It just keeps getting worse....
Correct.
http://nypost.com/2013/10/04/underco...kers-beat-dad/

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post #34 of 36 Old Oct 5th, 2013, 9:40 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firenailer
Gloria Alred is pretty much the new Ron Kuby. It's a shame, no matter how it all started and who did what, in a blink of an eye that SUV guys whole life is changed forever.

He probably will lose everything he ever had or ever will have because he happened to be on the road at the same time that these idiots were out stunting in the middle of the highway.

Another crazy story coming out last night on the news, has an off duty NYC Detective as one of the riders in that same group, and apparently he was present during the final beat down.,

It just keeps getting worse....
The difference is I respect Ron Kuby. Gloria, not so much.

Ponch


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post #35 of 36 Old Oct 5th, 2013, 10:21 pm
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Re: Who is at fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponch
The difference is I respect Ron Kuby. Gloria, not so much.
Maybe this will change your mind? Gloria demonstrates sex with a baseball bat

Now how do you feel???


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post #36 of 36 Old Oct 8th, 2013, 10:30 am Thread Starter
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Re: Who is at fault?

Even better: http://nypost.com/2013/10/07/bike-co...video-reveals/

Ponch


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