Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 9:54 am Thread Starter
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Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

A Consumer Reports survey says Harleys and BMWs are less reliable than Japanese motorcycles. What's surprising is the article states BMWs were even less reliable than Harleys with about one in three owners reporting problems in the previous four years.

More: http://news.yahoo.com/consumer-repor...FFRTl8A2RD_wgt.

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post #2 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 10:11 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

That is OK I will keep my unreliable BMW motorcycle.

Just for the record I also own a BMW automobile.
A 1997 318ti. It has a little four cylinder that Americans do not favor.
Too bad because I have 330,000 miles on the original engine.
Not bad for a BMW. I wonder how many Japanese and American automobiles can make that claim?

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post #3 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 10:14 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I don't know how my BMW could be any more reliable.


NO issues thus far in 4 years. Except a brake line recall.

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post #4 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 11:39 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Maybe a case of higher expectations (and therefore more complaints) due to higher cash outflows? Less willingness to forget or gloss over little things for those same reasons?

I have only had mine for 6 months and am thrilled with the bike, but still get surprised at things like the cost for 2 tires, or the frequency and cost of a 6k mile service (how can I already be due for another ... time to pick up my own wrenches). If I were having problems with the BMW, I would likely be more disappointed than issues on my Honda or KTM that rarely require more than a wash, oil, air filter change and chain lube. Then again, we are talking about different purpose machines ... I would have higher expectations from a BMW M6 than I do about my old Ford F250. Not sure if that would change my responses on a survey or not, might though??

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post #5 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 1:11 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

So far I have had rock solid BMW bikes. My X5 is having a problem with the level sensor strip in the urea tank. Does that count ?

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post #6 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 1:54 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

look in the LT setion. There are two threads in there about "what do you like the mostabout your bike" and what do you liek the least about you bike. The latter is much longer. Seems like more people like to complain than praise.
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post #7 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 4:23 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I can't see any mention of miles ridden and other factors I'd like to know. We all know of many 5 or 6 year old Harleys being sold with only 1000 miles on the ODO! Under "Fuel Problems" they mention that these problems could have been from improper winter storage. So if even the writer of the report doesn't know, I'd be foolish to make any assumptions or generalizations or future buying decisions on some people's mistakes or stupidity.

They also mention "lights" as a category of complaints. What are people reporting, burned out bulbs? Did the bulb blow after 3 days of ownership or 10 years?

AFAIK, CR doesn't include light bulbs and the like in reporting on automoblie reliability, they don't allow such complaints, so why motorcycles?

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post #8 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 5:08 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

The story about the story I saw stated that this is based on warranty work. That includes every little thing from bulbs to electrical problems. You have figure that with all the electronic gadgets on the RTs and GTLS and the brand new models have had a huge factor in this. The systems are so much more complicated than the standard dirt bike and street bikes of the Jap three, you can expect a few growing pains.

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post #9 of 27 Old Mar 28th, 2013, 7:51 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I have owned some from each of the big 4 Japanese makes , a Husky dirt bike and K&R BMW's not one has laid down on me , not from a lack of abuse on my part .
Flat tires an dead battery's be dammed .

Bob G
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post #10 of 27 Old Mar 29th, 2013, 11:01 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

BMW parts are more expensive and compared to the Japanese bikes I have owned not as reliable. However, the issues haven't been many and everything else about the bikes so overshadows the small amount of extra repair issues I had to endure that it certainly won't stop me from adding to the two I already own.
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post #11 of 27 Old Mar 29th, 2013, 11:42 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I know that in my case I fall into the category cited by CWRoady in post #4.

I have a 2012 RT and have had a final drive failure. To me that is absolutely unacceptable from a company that has been making shafties for 90 years. Switches have failed; hell, even my Norton never had a switch failure.

Further, a company that prides itself on its engineering prowess has made some real blunders in engineering from a user interface perspective. Hard to put air in the rear tire, can't see the display, iPod won't work, yadda yadda.

That said, I forgive all as the bike is absolutely brilliant when underway.

Oh, and it has a soul, too.

Tom

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post #12 of 27 Old Mar 29th, 2013, 1:19 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

The forum had a good long discussion about reliability issues back in 2004. If you've been to the archives, you may have seen it. If not, and you wanna peek at the early throes of ownership and reliability thoughts, click here.. And believe it or not, some of the most negative posts in that thread were penned by folks who are still astride a BMW!!
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post #13 of 27 Old Mar 29th, 2013, 4:27 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I've owned 7 Honda's, 2 Kawasaki's, and 2 Beemers. Yep, Beemers are the most unreliable in MY experience. That's why I'm on a Concours14 currently, and NOT a K1200GT or K1600GT.

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post #14 of 27 Old Mar 29th, 2013, 7:18 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12R12RT
I know that in my case I fall into the category cited by CWRoady in post #4.

I have a 2012 RT and have had a final drive failure. To me that is absolutely unacceptable from a company that has been making shafties for 90 years. Switches have failed; hell, even my Norton never had a switch failure.

Further, a company that prides itself on its engineering prowess has made some real blunders in engineering from a user interface perspective. Hard to put air in the rear tire, can't see the display, iPod won't work, yadda yadda.

That said, I forgive all as the bike is absolutely brilliant when underway.

Oh, and it has a soul, too.

Tom
Failure and Reliability are part of life.
Surveys are very personal and tend to depend on how or what was asked and what and how the response.
I see Boeing are having a time ironing out the kinks with the F-35 and how long have the been in that industry. Is Uncle Sam happy I would think not. Will they go somewhere else for their next order absolutely not. So how would you score that. Yes there are quirks in everything but the bottom line is how we handle it and if we go back for more. I for one if I lost my LT for any reason would want another to replace it as would most of us. Just remember 90 years ago my bike was not even in the design stage.
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post #15 of 27 Old Mar 30th, 2013, 10:20 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13_ver2
I've owned 7 Honda's, 2 Kawasaki's, and 2 Beemers. Yep, Beemers are the most unreliable in MY experience. That's why I'm on a Concours14 currently, and NOT a K1200GT or K1600GT.
Yeah, but you've always been a rabble-rousing trouble maker....

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post #16 of 27 Old Mar 30th, 2013, 11:50 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billsmith
...
I see Boeing are having a time ironing out the kinks with the F-35 and how long have the been in that industry. Is Uncle Sam happy I would think not. Will they go somewhere else for their next order absolutely not. So how would you score that. ...
Frankly, that's an extremely poor analogy.

Yes, Boeing have been making planes for a long time. However, you might study the capabilities of the F-35 to understand that each new generation of fighter aircraft is at the leading edge of technology, In fact, during production the the technology encased withing the fuselage - avionics, radar, flight control, and power - have elements that continue to be on the leading edge. There were some elements that we referred to as the "bleeding edge", as they were terribly difficult to make work. That doesn't stop until the aircraft enters a stable configuration during the declining order period of it's lifecycle.

A more proper analogy would be if Boeing still made the DC-9. Would you expect the DC-9, after 50 years of continuous production with the only real changes being modest changes in cockpit technology and passenger seating, to be free of really serious defects? I would.

But we're not talking about airplanes. We're talking about a driveshaft. A two foot long dingus that comes out of the ass end of the transmission and makes the rear wheel go round.

Wouldn't you expect that, after 90 years, they could get that right? I do.

On a cheap Chinese copy of an old BMW I would forgive some quality issues, but on a $25K OTD genuine BMW? Nope.

On the other niggling little issues like switch blocks, valve stem placement, can't see the display, that' just abject inattention to detail and an arrogant not caring about the user.

Bill Lear woulda kicked their asses all over the factory if they worked for him.

Tom

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post #17 of 27 Old Mar 30th, 2013, 2:37 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallzee
Yeah, but you've always been a rabble-rousing trouble maker....
You must be thinking of someone else.
lol

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post #18 of 27 Old Mar 31st, 2013, 9:48 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Currently, I do not have an Asian bike in the garage. 2 KTMs, a Buell and a BMW. My experience is that the Euro brands are easier to work on and have been designed to be easily worked on. Change an air filter on an Asian brand and note the different size wrenches you will need. 1 KTM needs no tools, the other needs 1 wrench. My daughter's KX (now gone) needed 2 different sized wrenches to get to the airbox. Ugh.

In my experience, I would imagine the more expensive the bike, the higher the expectation, the more likely a new owner would not overlook a small thing and instead bring it in for a warranty claim.
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post #19 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2013, 10:56 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I read the Consumer Reports article and found it interesting and relatively accurate. I noted that across the board, Touring bikes of all brands had a 27% fail rate. So here's what I gleaned. The more miles you ride in a year and the more options/accessories you have, the more likely you are to experience an issue.

My experience is that Japanese bikes are more reliable, however, my LT rides much better and I can comfortably do many more miles in a day. I signed up for the added maintenance and use this forum to save me $$$ because I or my team of forum buddies can do it far cheaper than the dealer.

I ride what I ride because I love it. Although, if BMW suddenly made more reliable products, it wouldn't hurt my feelings. Not even a little bit.

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post #20 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2013, 12:05 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12R12RT
...We're talking about a driveshaft...Wouldn't you expect that, after 90 years, they could get that right? I do.
On a cheap Chinese copy of an old BMW I would forgive some quality issues, but on a $25K OTD genuine BMW? Nope.
On the other niggling little issues like switch blocks, valve stem placement, can't see the display, that' just abject inattention to detail and an arrogant not caring about the user....
Tom, +1. I've had the same thoughts about a water pump. How long have manufacturers been using these on water cooled engines? They're not new technology, so why on Earth do some of the K1600s have this problem, oh yeah, and at $23K plus a pop?

Someone mentioned lights. I can understand this considering all the threads on this forum about adding auxiliary lighting and HID headlights. Most be something to it because BMW decided to put one of those adaptive headlights on the K1600. Oh, and I'll be the first to admit the factory headlight on my '08 HD sucks wind big time.

____Break______

"look in the LT setion. There are two threads in there about "what do you like the mostabout your bike" and what do you liek the least about you bike. The latter is much longer. Seems like more people like to complain than praise." Foiler, you are correct, but you failed to mention people will always complain more, regardless the brand. It's not exclusive to BMW.

____Break_______

Also, re: how the questions are asked, CR and their peers are not newbies at this. They know to ask the same questions in the same manner with each person surveyed/polled. The results would be even more baffling and skewed if they didn't.

Jeff
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post #21 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2013, 12:23 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

If you didn't own a motorcycle at all you'd have no problems, right?

Or you could own a Japanese motorcycle and it would be close to the same thing.

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post #22 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2013, 9:49 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Consumer Reports? Seriously, I couldn't care less about what they have to say unless they're talking about dishwashers. I don't buy anything I drive or ride by the numbers and I would imagine most of those here don't either. I just bought a used Z4 last year and I certainly didn't think to check Consumer Reports "best used cars" issue beforehand, I just drove it and that was all the numbers I needed. For the curious, while I can't vouch for the electronically limited 155 top speed I can state that mine will do 146 according to my gps. Consequently I guess if I listened to CR, instead of buying an LT I would have come home with a Camry.
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post #23 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2013, 6:26 pm
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkchris
If you didn't own a motorcycle at all you'd have no problems, right?

Or you could own a Japanese motorcycle and it would be close to the same thing.
That pretty much sums it up. I tried to convince myself to consolidate to a single bike about 8 months ago, zeroed in on the FJR and Concours as an in-between replacement because they have all the right 'numbers' and are reliable. After riding each there is just no way, I just didn't feel like anything was happening, there was no bond with the machine going on.

I know a test ride doesn't tell all, but the first time I rode an LT on a test drive (and my R1200C before that) there was a bond between me and the machine that I still feel just as much every time I get on one of them and take off

As a side note, apparently the site administrators read CR, when you use the smile, spell check suggests "bomb" to correct - just pointing it out.

-Steve

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post #24 of 27 Old Apr 5th, 2013, 7:45 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I am so very glad that I didn't read the "reports" about the K1200LT before I bought my 02, one of the best decisions I ever made concerning motorcycles!

Same with the K1600GTL and many other things that i have purchased in my life. Most "reports" have a built in prestigious. Not that they are not accurate, but maybe out of context?

Just my .02

Dano
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post #25 of 27 Old Apr 20th, 2013, 11:30 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

[QUOTE=CWRoady]Maybe a case of higher expectations (and therefore more complaints) due to higher cash outflows? Less willingness to forget or gloss over little things for those same reasons?

I think you hit the proverbial nail smack bang on the head !
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post #26 of 27 Old Apr 20th, 2013, 11:34 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12R12RT
I know that in my case I fall into the category cited by CWRoady in post #4.

I have a 2012 RT and have had a final drive failure. To me that is absolutely unacceptable from a company that has been making shafties for 90 years. Switches have failed; hell, even my Norton never had a switch failure.

Further, a company that prides itself on its engineering prowess has made some real blunders in engineering from a user interface perspective. Hard to put air in the rear tire, can't see the display, iPod won't work, yadda yadda.

That said, I forgive all as the bike is absolutely brilliant when underway.

Oh, and it has a soul, too.

Tom
+1
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post #27 of 27 Old Apr 22nd, 2013, 11:09 am
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Re: Harleys and BMWs Less Reliable than Japanese Motorcycles?

I have been on a year long comparo of my 2003 LT to a 2003 Goldwing, courtesy of a best friend that can't ride much and wanted me to keep his Wing running. My wife says I can OWN one or the other and my bud has decided his bad back is not going to let him ride anymore. He has made me a spectacular offer on the wing, which has 3 times as many miles as my LT. But still a great price.

I love both of them. the LT has some awesome features that the Goldwing really should have. The LT is silky smooth and sporty - the Wing pulls like a hot rod locomotive and cruises like a champ. Lt has heat and electric shield. Gold wing has way better stock seat - important for my 225 mile ride (each way) to see my family each week.. And so on.

It comes down to this for me. There is a Honda dealer in every mud puddle in America should it break. right now I am at least an hour and a half from a BMW dealer. 1/2 hour from a honda dealer. I am in the middle of nowhere right now. The "localest" honda dealer is good enough that they would come pick it up for me for free - we do a LOT of business with them. Not so for the BMW dealer - the same dealer would probably get my LT too if I needed it.

I think both bikes are awesome and have great reliability records. but I have more confidence in the Wing based on dealer network. So I'm leaning towards it - at least til I ride my LT... then it wins. talk about your dilemmas....

Randy
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