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post #1 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 5:08 pm Thread Starter
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not stopping at stop signs

OK so this is sort of MC related.

In my suburban neighborhood we have lots of teens.

They all seem to run the stop signs.

Today in the family SUV (Nissan Armada) I came to a stop and the car (small rice burner) crossing slowed down and proceeded to roll thru the their stop sign. I took the opportunity to take MY turn and enter the intersection (slowly of course) and the other car came to a stop as the rolled thru the stop sign.

While I was in the middle of the intersection (no other cars around), I opened my car door and started to walk towards the other car.

The other driver put their car in reverse, went 6-7 houses back and turned around and went the other way.

I can see that this could be some thug with a gun (very unlikely in my sleepy neighborhood) as it was more likely a teen driving like a fool.

Of course I would think twice and thrice before doing this on my LT, but what are your thoughts?

Was I stupid or just acting out since I am just crazy feed up with these kids runing the stop signs all the time?

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post #2 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 6:37 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleknight
OK so this is sort of MC related.

In my suburban neighborhood we have lots of teens.

They all seem to run the stop signs.

Today in the family SUV (Nissan Armada) I came to a stop and the car (small rice burner) crossing slowed down and proceeded to roll thru the their stop sign. I took the opportunity to take MY turn and enter the intersection (slowly of course) and the other car came to a stop as the rolled thru the stop sign.

While I was in the middle of the intersection (no other cars around), I opened my car door and started to walk towards the other car.

The other driver put their car in reverse, went 6-7 houses back and turned around and went the other way.

I can see that this could be some thug with a gun (very unlikely in my sleepy neighborhood) as it was more likely a teen driving like a fool.

Of course I would think twice and thrice before doing this on my LT, but what are your thoughts?

Was I stupid or just acting out since I am just crazy feed up with these kids runing the stop signs all the time?
Well, I am sure I am in the minority also, but I think we all should do more of this. The conventional wisdow for many years has been to not resist anything. Don't resist a burglar, robber, mugger or rapist ... or terrorist. We learned on 9-11 what happens when people don't resist.

I am a firm believer in resisting criminals with every asset at my disposal.

Sure, every now and then this can get you into trouble, but I think that is rare if you take care and be aware of your surroundings. I also believe it is good to not do such things alone. I tend to invite Mr. Colt along...

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post #3 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 6:46 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

(I think i'm understanding the story accurately.)

I'm sure this story sounds entirely DIFFERENTLY coming from the other driver. Putting myself in their shoes, sounds to me like they escaped a possibly dangerous situation very successfully. They didn't know what you had in mind.

I'm not saying they were right ... just scared.
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post #4 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 6:47 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

I once broke a driver side window with a baseball bat because the driver drove up the shoulder & cut in front of me. He ran out the passenger side & disappeared in a field. I got a lot of on that one. I never did find out how long the car sat there. It wasn't like I stayed around.

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post #5 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 6:52 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleknight
Was I stupid or just acting out since I am just crazy feed up with these kids runing the stop signs all the time?
It's not just kids. I stop at every sign I come to, and I am a very rare breed in my town or anywhere else I've been.

When I'm teaching my kids to drive, one of my first stops is to park near the local stop sign a block away. I tell them to look at the wheels and count how many stop, and how many roll through. We are lucky to count 1 stop in 20 cars. That would get worse the longer we sit there. It's a good lesson for them not to count on the other guy and always expect the other person to do the unexpected.

See post #25 in this thread: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14533&

Fascinating to me that a LEO thought "judgement" was in order when allowing folks to roll through stop signs. If it isn't open and shut with the law, then you'll never get people to obey it in your neighborhood.

You were quite right in wanting to do something about it. Stop signs are there for a reason, if we are just going to put up with folks ignoring them then what's the point?

Dan
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post #6 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 7:01 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddleman
I once broke a driver side window with a baseball bat because the driver drove up the shoulder & cut in front of me. He ran out the passenger side & disappeared in a field. I got a lot of on that one. I never did find out how long the car sat there. It wasn't like I stayed around.
Wow, you are worse than me. Many years ago whey my kids were small, we were at a local state park camping and this car with two young girls in it drove around our camping loop WAY too fast. The loop was posted at something like 10 MPH which is reasonable for a narrow one-lane road in a camping loop where lots of kids are playing, riding bikes, etc. This car was going probably 25-30 MPH.

I did nothing the first time they went by thinking it was a one-time bit of sutpidity. They decided to come by a second time and I yelled pretty loud at them. I could tell from the hand signals that they heard me. They made the mistake of making a third pass. I had just filled by coffee mug (I drink from large mugs!) with steaming hot coffee with lots of sugar in it (I've since kicked the sugar habit). When I heard them coming I moved quickly out to near the road, but well-hidden by my pickup. When they came by I emptied the full mug through the passengers open window. My timing was impeccable and it went all over the dash, instrument panel and windshield and probably a little on both passenger and driver. They slowed down substantially for the rest of their trip arounnd the loop.

Funny, they didn't make a 4th pass. However, I was ready with another mug just in case. I REALLY would have liked to have known what story they told their parents as that would have been a nearly impossible mess to clean up completely.

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post #7 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 7:34 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

I'd be rather careful when doing that, walking up to the car even worse using a baseball bat.

If *I* am in the car and you approach me with a baseball bat you ain't leaving the scene on your own legs due to lead poisoning.
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post #8 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 8:15 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleknight
OK so this is sort of MC related.

In my suburban neighborhood we have lots of teens.

They all seem to run the stop signs.

Today in the family SUV (Nissan Armada) I came to a stop and the car (small rice burner) crossing slowed down and proceeded to roll thru the their stop sign. I took the opportunity to take MY turn and enter the intersection (slowly of course) and the other car came to a stop as the rolled thru the stop sign.

While I was in the middle of the intersection (no other cars around), I opened my car door and started to walk towards the other car.

The other driver put their car in reverse, went 6-7 houses back and turned around and went the other way.

I can see that this could be some thug with a gun (very unlikely in my sleepy neighborhood) as it was more likely a teen driving like a fool.

Of course I would think twice and thrice before doing this on my LT, but what are your thoughts?

Was I stupid or just acting out since I am just crazy feed up with these kids runing the stop signs all the time?
Yeah, I feel for you in Florida, not only do you have the kids acting a fool (as usual), you have the "Blue hairs," also. Talk about a DEADLY combination?

Anywho, I won't tell you that you were crazy for approaching A/H on foot, BUT be careful because you never know when one of these rocket-fuel-geniuses is going to nut-up on you.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #9 of 44 Old Nov 21st, 2010, 8:35 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson

Anywho, I won't tell you that you were crazy for approaching A/H on foot, BUT be careful because you never know when one of these rocket-fuel-geniuses is going to nut-up on you.
That was a funny way to put it. Best laugh I've had in a few days.

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post #10 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 12:33 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleknight
Was I stupid or just acting out since I am just crazy feed up with these kids runing the stop signs all the time?
I don't think it was stupid given the scenario you described. It'll give junior something to think about the next time.

I did something similar about a year ago. I was driving with the entire family coming home from a movie about 10:30 pm. We were within 3 miles of our house on a two-lane road. There was a double yellow and I was doing 55 in a 50. I then get passed by a teen boy and his girlfriend passenger. Clearly passed me on the double-yellow. So I stayed behind them and to my surprise they turned into our neighborhood and parked just before reaching our house. I pulled into our driveway, and walked back towards his car, and when I got there they were still in the car. He didn't see me approaching, and when I got next to his car I knocked on his window and stood back. As he opened his door I said very calmly "The next time you pass me on a double-yellow I'll run you off the road." Then I turned and walked away back to my house.

He didn't say a word, and believe me I was listening for footsteps as I walked away but none came. I'm sure I gave him something to think about the next time he goes to pass on a double-yellow.

Ted

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post #11 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 1:58 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

A good time for my favorite motto!

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and it annoys the pig!

Probably didn't leave a life long impression on the ute (youth) and you might have gotten yourself whacked!

Be careful my friends. It just isn't worth the risk.

Loren

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post #12 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 3:23 am Thread Starter
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by wa1200lt
A good time for my favorite motto!

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and it annoys the pig!

Probably didn't leave a life long impression on the ute (youth) and you might have gotten yourself whacked!

Be careful my friends. It just isn't worth the risk.

Loren
Agreed...

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post #13 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 7:13 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

We had this problem in my neighborhood, at the stop sign on the corner of my street. We had a very unique and fortunate solution. A nice motorcycle cops asked the owner of the house on the corner to park his two cars in the driveway so as to leave a big gap in between them. He pulled his motorcycle between the cars and watched....for three days...and wrote 32 citations for running that stop sign. He said on the third day the incidents tapered off, showing the effectiveness.

He comes back about once a month. He writes a few. Problem seems to be solved.
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post #14 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 1:00 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

I agree that confrontation is not the best solution. There are too many possible outcomes that are bad for you, or at least don't solve the problem. Try calling your local police and ask for increased enforcement at the stop sign in question. It may take several calls before they act. If you add that you were nearly hit by a teen driver, or you just saw a mother and baby carriage nearly run over, it may offer encouragement to step up enforcement.

About 25 years ago, when I was younger and dumber, I reacted to a bad driver, who had to be in front, after I had just passed him (legally). When I got to the next stop sign, he never stopped, instead driving onto the dirt shoulder and kicking lots of dust, sand, and gravel at me. On the steep hill that followed, there was a two-lane passing zone, so I "taught him a lesson" by twisting the wick to accelerate briskly past him. I did nothing illegal, but it enraged him even more. In response, the other driver tried to kill me by forcing me into opposing traffic on the two-lane road, and also by trying to run me down directly. I escaped by using the bicycle lane on the right to pass the cars in front of me, which put distance between us. In my mirror, I could see him passing cars on the double-double. He literally drove opposing traffic onto their shoulder. He tried very hard to catch up with me, but couldn't. The experience was terrifying.

Lessons learned:
You can never predict how strangers will react.
They may resort to deadly force (at great risk to themselves and innocents) at any time.

Was it my fault? No.
Did I teach him a lesson? No.
Were many innocent people put at grave risk? Yes.
Was it worth it? No.

Last edited by XMagnaRider; Nov 22nd, 2010 at 1:06 pm.
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post #15 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 1:45 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Have you or have you considered contacting the police about this "rolling through stop signs problem" (speak face-to-face with a superior officer) and spoken to someone in your municipal government (mayor, councilman, etc)?

Things like this only go on because they're tolerated and, from my experience, a little bit of targeted enforcement goes a long way to greatly minimizing such problems. If you make your local authorities aware of the problem, they may very well be able to fix it for you.

If you try this and your local authorities seem uninterested, then going to a public council meeting with one or more of your neighbors in tow will usually get things rolling (no pun intended).

P.S.- As I'm sure you already know, confronting miscreants on the road is never a good idea.

Steve
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post #16 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 1:47 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

You're not a cop, you're not the enforcer of the rules (unless you are a LEO).

All it takes is one encounter with someone having a very very bad day and it could be all over for everyone involved. Certainly not worth it.

If it bothers you that much, take the license number, call the PD and tell them this car nearly collided into you by running the stop sign (do not file a false report!). Hopefully the PD will send someone to talk to the driver to investigate. They will deny it happened, but will know someone is watching and reporting their actions.

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post #17 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 1:58 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
I tend to invite Mr. Colt along...
Do you really want to get into a gunfight over a minor traffic violation?

Defending your home from intruders or your country from invaders is not the same thing as confronting some jackass who didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign or didn't yield the right-of-way to you. I know we're just talking here, but anyone who really doesn't understand the difference should probably leave "Mr. Colt" or their friends, Smith & Wesson, at home.

Steve
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Last edited by XTrooper; Nov 22nd, 2010 at 2:04 pm.
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post #18 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 2:17 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

You may want to consider the consequences of confronting a minor traffic violator. Suppose he's not at all receptive to your opinions, perhaps a fight of some sort follows, and (as I'm sure no one but the toughest guy on the block would initiate a confrontation) suppose you win by causing injury to the traffic violator. You'll end up in court and have to defend your actions, which were prompted simply by some dumb-ass kid who did nothing more than roll through a stop sign.
Jus sayin.
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post #19 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 3:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrooper
Have you or have you considered contacting the police about this "rolling through stop signs problem" (speak face-to-face with a superior officer)

P.S.- As I'm sure you already know, confronting miscreants on the road is never a good idea.
GREAT idea...

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post #20 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 5:35 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrooper
Do you really want to get into a gunfight over a minor traffic violation?

Defending your home from intruders or your country from invaders is not the same thing as confronting some jackass who didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign or didn't yield the right-of-way to you. I know we're just talking here, but anyone who really doesn't understand the difference should probably leave "Mr. Colt" or their friends, Smith & Wesson, at home.
Absolutely not. Never suggested I did. Mr. Colt is solely for defense should someone threaten my life. However, since one never knows when this might happen, one must always be prepared.

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post #21 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 6:16 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

"one must always be prepared"

One must, mustn't one
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post #22 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 6:38 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
I'd be rather careful when doing that, walking up to the car even worse using a baseball bat.

If *I* am in the car and you approach me with a baseball bat you ain't leaving the scene on your own legs due to lead poisoning.
Had I seen him reach for anything one of us would have died of lead poisoning & I would just now be up for parole. Worth it as far as I'm concerned.

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post #23 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 6:42 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
.........since one never knows when this might happen, one must always be prepared.
I'm in 100% agreement and religiously follow this rule myself.

Steve
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post #24 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 7:41 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMagnaRider
I agree that confrontation is not the best solution. There are too many possible outcomes that are bad for you, or at least don't solve the problem. Try calling your local police and ask for increased enforcement at the stop sign in question. It may take several calls before they act. If you add that you were nearly hit by a teen driver, or you just saw a mother and baby carriage nearly run over, it may offer encouragement to step up enforcement.

About 25 years ago, when I was younger and dumber, I reacted to a bad driver, who had to be in front, after I had just passed him (legally). When I got to the next stop sign, he never stopped, instead driving onto the dirt shoulder and kicking lots of dust, sand, and gravel at me. On the steep hill that followed, there was a two-lane passing zone, so I "taught him a lesson" by twisting the wick to accelerate briskly past him. I did nothing illegal, but it enraged him even more. In response, the other driver tried to kill me by forcing me into opposing traffic on the two-lane road, and also by trying to run me down directly. I escaped by using the bicycle lane on the right to pass the cars in front of me, which put distance between us. In my mirror, I could see him passing cars on the double-double. He literally drove opposing traffic onto their shoulder. He tried very hard to catch up with me, but couldn't. The experience was terrifying.

Lessons learned:
You can never predict how strangers will react.
They may resort to deadly force (at great risk to themselves and innocents) at any time.

Was it my fault? No.
Did I teach him a lesson? No.
Were many innocent people put at grave risk? Yes.
Was it worth it? No.
WORD! Great advice. IF you're going to chase someone down (confrontation), make it for a BIG issue (violent felony). There are to many bad outcomes possible, especially in the big city, to make it worthwhile over small issues.

And don't forget the magic words: "officer, I observed (insert violent felony here) and was trying to make an arrest....."

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #25 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 8:24 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

My advise is this: there should be only one liar left in court, and it should be you.
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post #26 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 10:11 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Instead of asking us...perhaps you should ask your question to those who love you the most.

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post #27 of 44 Old Nov 22nd, 2010, 10:31 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Originally Posted by fpmlt
My advise is this: there should be only one liar left in court, and it should be you.
Perhaps a better plan: use good judgement and you wont have to lie in court?

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post #28 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 8:20 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

It does pay to be cautious since we don't know who is in the other vehilce. Just yesterday in Atlanta. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/25876024/detail.html

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post #29 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 2:27 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Originally Posted by cb550f
It does pay to be cautious since we don't know who is in the other vehilce. Just yesterday in Atlanta. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/25876024/detail.html
They're not bad guys--just misunderstood!

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post #30 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 3:20 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

This will be my last post on this subject ( .

I have 2 brothers in law who are gun toting idiots. Never go anywhere without their weapon. For protection they say. It appears to me that packing their little guns with them gives them a sense of bravado that may one day prove unhealthy. They tend to place themselves in situations where the need for a deadly weapon may be necessary far more often than I do.

One of the idiots works for a local government as a Utilities Locater. He nearly lost his job trying to fight City Hall (literally) to retain his Constitutional right to bear arms. Apparently not while working for the City unless you are a sworn police officer.

I have taught my kids that it is far better to pay attention to the risks around you and mitigate them as far as possible. I ride and drive courteously and don't allow myself to get pissed off when others are rude. There are NEVER any winners in a road rage situation.

Not sayin you shouldn't have the right to bear arms but you need to consider why you do and take reasonable precautions when around other folks in order to avoid having to use one.

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post #31 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 4:48 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrooper
Have you or have you considered contacting the police about this "rolling through stop signs problem" (speak face-to-face with a superior officer) and spoken to someone in your municipal government (mayor, councilman, etc)?

Things like this only go on because they're tolerated and, from my experience, a little bit of targeted enforcement goes a long way to greatly minimizing such problems. If you make your local authorities aware of the problem, they may very well be able to fix it for you.

If you try this and your local authorities seem uninterested, then going to a public council meeting with one or more of your neighbors in tow will usually get things rolling (no pun intended).

P.S.- As I'm sure you already know, confronting miscreants on the road is never a good idea.
Having been a motor officer earlier in my career I can attest to the person to person request if possible. I was sent to neighborhood complaint with my trusty old HR-12 (lazer was still sci-fi) with a 25 mph street. The complaint was for people cutting through the neighborhood and speeding. I actually wrote more citations to the residents who were complaining! And a good number were 50+ mph coming up the hill towards me! For some reason we didn't get anymore "invitations" but I knew where I could go to and write some residential speeders! I also worked a school bus detail in the neighborhood too with pretty much the same results.

But seriously if the local PD has a motor unit and you can get one of their ears...do it. Those guys are their to enforce traffic laws and evaluated on it. Most would rather write residential citations than highway ones anyway, for the safety of the residents.

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post #32 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 6:29 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Originally Posted by andy
I'd be rather careful when doing that, walking up to the car even worse using a baseball bat.

If *I* am in the car and you approach me with a baseball bat you ain't leaving the scene on your own legs due to lead poisoning.
Not only is there the risk of physical confrontation but you can find yourself in legal hot water. There was a recent news story about some idiot cutting in line at a gas station which prompted the driver who was cut off (happened to be a doctor) to get out of his car holding a tire iron. The doctor was arrested for his 'threatening' act while the jerk who cut him off was merely sent on his way.
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post #33 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 7:31 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Originally Posted by mjordans2000
Not only is there the risk of physical confrontation but you can find yourself in legal hot water. There was a recent news story about some idiot cutting in line at a gas station which prompted the driver who was cut off (happened to be a doctor) to get out of his car holding a tire iron. The doctor was arrested for his 'threatening' act while the jerk who cut him off was merely sent on his way.
Approaching someone with a weapon in your hand, threatening them is called "aggravated assault" (the weapon, baseball bat, tire iron, knife, ...makes it "aggravated") and all the guy/girl that gus you down in response needs to say is: "I was afraid for my life when he came towards me in a threatening manner with that weapon in his hands"

In TX that will lead to a approx $20k bill in legal costs (but in the case above no conviction, most likely not even charges being filed) and you being dead.

That's why I agree: Try to avoid when possible, and don't get yourself into a situation where you can get shot legally.
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post #34 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 10:19 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

In Florida, we have a law called "Stand your ground", where you are legally permitted to meet force with equal force without the responsibility to flee. This law was recently passed.

In some states, you have a responsibility to flee....flight before fight. If you're sitting in a car and someone comes at you with a bat and you drawn down and fire, your goose is cooked...you're getting a murder charge.


However, I believe, as a permit holder with very well honed shooting skills, that I have a moral (if not legal) responsibility to diffuse/avoid any situation that may place me in a situation which I must apply deadly force. My cardinal rules are this: Avoid and walk away if possible, and never shoot someone in the back. These do not apply to my home, as that is my home and I will defend at all costs.


Andy, may I suggest that if someone approach your car with a baseball bat that you just put it in reverse?

By all means, if they attempt to enter or pull you out, defend yourself. But shooting someone who walks up with a bat (while you are sitting in a 4,000 pound automobile) just seems like more of a satisfaction of one's inner desire to triumph in a fight than the Freudian will to survive.

Just my $.02, nothing personal.
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post #35 of 44 Old Nov 23rd, 2010, 10:42 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottly
In Florida, we have a law called "Stand your ground", where you are legally permitted to meet force with equal force without the responsibility to flee. This law was recently passed.

In some states, you have a responsibility to flee....flight before fight. If you're sitting in a car and someone comes at you with a bat and you drawn down and fire, your goose is cooked...you're getting a murder charge.


However, I believe, as a permit holder with very well honed shooting skills, that I have a moral (if not legal) responsibility to diffuse/avoid any situation that may place me in a situation which I must apply deadly force. My cardinal rules are this: Avoid and walk away if possible, and never shoot someone in the back. These do not apply to my home, as that is my home and I will defend at all costs.


Andy, may I suggest that if someone approach your car with a baseball bat that you just put it in reverse?

By all means, if they attempt to enter or pull you out, defend yourself. But shooting someone who walks up with a bat (while you are sitting in a 4,000 pound automobile) just seems like more of a satisfaction of one's inner desire to triumph in a fight than the Freudian will to survive.

Just my $.02, nothing personal.
Agreed. Since the gutless DA will most likely hand off the case to a grand jury for review, the more you try to avoid a confrontation, the better.

AND, maybe you won't have to spend that $20k in legal fees Andy was talking about!

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post #36 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 9:07 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottly
In Florida, we have a law called "Stand your ground", where you are legally permitted to meet force with equal force without the responsibility to flee. This law was recently passed.

In some states, you have a responsibility to flee....flight before fight. If you're sitting in a car and someone comes at you with a bat and you drawn down and fire, your goose is cooked...you're getting a murder charge.


However, I believe, as a permit holder with very well honed shooting skills, that I have a moral (if not legal) responsibility to diffuse/avoid any situation that may place me in a situation which I must apply deadly force. My cardinal rules are this: Avoid and walk away if possible, and never shoot someone in the back. These do not apply to my home, as that is my home and I will defend at all costs.


Andy, may I suggest that if someone approach your car with a baseball bat that you just put it in reverse?

By all means, if they attempt to enter or pull you out, defend yourself. But shooting someone who walks up with a bat (while you are sitting in a 4,000 pound automobile) just seems like more of a satisfaction of one's inner desire to triumph in a fight than the Freudian will to survive.

Just my $.02, nothing personal.
None taken. And I refer back to my statement: "That's why I agree: Try to avoid when possible, and don't get yourself into a situation where you can get shot legally."

Just in case that wasn't clear: That goes both ways, as I don't like to have those costs either, nor do I like to shoot anyone. Yet the original statement still stands: Walking up to a anyone here in TX with a baseball bat, tire iron, ... in your hand in a threatening manner is a good way to get shot and the guy that shoots you wont even face jail time.
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post #37 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 9:13 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Big mistake. Always shoot first and ask questions later.

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post #38 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 9:44 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
Big mistake. Always shoot first and ask questions later.
And someone you love may become one of the many statistics of people in this country accidentally shot by some nimrod that didn't verify his target, or what's behind his target.
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post #39 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 10:02 am
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpolakow
Big mistake. Always shoot first and ask questions later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottly
And someone you love may become one of the many statistics of people in this country accidentally shot by some nimrod that didn't verify his target, or what's behind his target.
I don't think Greg was serious. A little tongue-in-cheek, there!

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post #40 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 12:58 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleknight
..........

Was I stupid or just acting out since I am just crazy feed up with these kids runing the stop signs all the time?
Well, probably not the smartest thing to do, but I spare your frustration. Wouldn't it be nice if LEOs took the interest we mc riders do in folks running stop signs?

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post #41 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 1:39 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Well, probably not the smartest thing to do, but I spare your frustration. Wouldn't it be nice if LEOs took the interest we mc riders do in folks running stop signs?
Uuhhhhmmmmmmmmm.....I take it you do NOT have motors in your neck of the woods? They are known to take a KEEN interest in all "traffic" violations.

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post #42 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 9:17 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Originally Posted by jayjacobson
WORD! Great advice. IF you're going to chase someone down (confrontation), make it for a BIG issue (violent felony). There are to many bad outcomes possible, especially in the big city, to make it worthwhile over small issues.

And don't forget the magic words: "officer, I observed (insert violent felony here) and was trying to make an arrest....."
While I agree with you in general, I think there is a problem with this philosophy in that overlooking little things often snowballs into bigger things. Remember that part of the reason that Giuliani had a fair measure of success in NYC is that he had the police force enforce all of the laws, so that people again began to respect all of the laws.

I'm a firm believer you shouldn't have a law if you don't plan to enforce it. If we really don't care that people roll through stop signs, then get rid of the stop signs. Replace them with caution signs or nothing at all. Having laws you don't enforce just leads to a general lack of respect for all laws, in my opinion of course. :-)

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post #43 of 44 Old Nov 24th, 2010, 9:21 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Perhaps a better plan: use good judgement and you wont have to lie in court?
Absolutely. As a famous pilot once said, "'A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid those situations which require the use of superior skill." I won't say who that famous pilot was as this quote has been attributed to a number of famous pilots, but all have had both superior judgement and superior skill.

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post #44 of 44 Old Nov 25th, 2010, 2:19 pm
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Re: not stopping at stop signs

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Originally Posted by Voyager
While I agree with you in general, I think there is a problem with this philosophy in that overlooking little things often snowballs into bigger things. Remember that part of the reason that Giuliani had a fair measure of success in NYC is that he had the police force enforce all of the laws, so that people again began to respect all of the laws.

I'm a firm believer you shouldn't have a law if you don't plan to enforce it. If we really don't care that people roll through stop signs, then get rid of the stop signs. Replace them with caution signs or nothing at all. Having laws you don't enforce just leads to a general lack of respect for all laws, in my opinion of course. :-)
We're actually talking about two different things. When I say "chase someone down," I'm talking about a high speed pursuit, where someone could go "tits up" at every intersection. And when the pursuit ends, there is a good chance of a shoot-out, etc. So I am referring to high-chance "deadly force" scenarios.

What you're talking about is called "the broken window theory." I agree with it as an effective investigative tool to massively reduce crime in a certain area.

Implementation of said theory is most often by use of a "task force" to saturate a crime-infested area, and goes something like this: Everyone gets stopped for the slightest infraction. Not because you give a shit that a driver just "Kommyfornia rolled" the stop sign, but because you want to ID/chat the driver and his passengers. So you "run" everyone through various data bases and in a few minutes, you know who's a "Boyscout" and who's a "saint." The Boyscouts go with you and the saints go on their way! Now, you know WHO everyone in the veh is and where they live. And, if they don't live in that hood, why they're there.

Also, you might ask the boyscout(s) WHY the inside or their veh smells like the coroner's office--OR the last rock concert you attended--ER--didn't really attend. Next thing you know, he showing you his shrunken head collection in the trunk.

Look, I didn't say being a Boyscout was easy! AND who says there's no saints in the city?

Where things get a bit tricky is when Mr Boyscout wants to take you on a high speed pursuit. You have to evaluate what he's wanted for at that minute (perhaps only a "Kommyfornia roll") VS the danger to innocent people of you chasing him through the hood at 80 MPH, etc.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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