One way to slow down for the LEO - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 27 Old Mar 31st, 2010, 7:55 am Thread Starter
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One way to slow down for the LEO

Seems effective but a little radical me...


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post #2 of 27 Old Mar 31st, 2010, 7:59 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Oopsy! I dropped it!

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post #3 of 27 Old Mar 31st, 2010, 8:33 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Saw that LEO and grabbed a little too much front brake...

Ouch....

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post #4 of 27 Old Mar 31st, 2010, 10:56 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Lucky it was a cop on the shoulder not an SUV in the other lane. Wonder if he came up with any quick answers like, "I was just checking the effectiveness of my body armor, officer, is there anything wrong?"

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post #5 of 27 Old Mar 31st, 2010, 4:56 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Is that a motorcycle LEO parked on the left hand side of the road just after he passes the bike ?
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post #6 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 1:29 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
Seems effective but a little radical me...


http://www.break.com/index/biker-eat...nt-of-cop.html
What do you mean it was "failure to anticipate," captain? How was I supposed to know some A/H was doing DOUBLE the speed limit in a curve?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #7 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 4:05 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

I feel sad and sorry for the riders when I watch videos like this. Did you see how fast it happened? There was absolutely no chance for recovery. Hopefully the rider wasn't hurt - often they get up and walk around on adrenalin for a minute, and then notice the injuries. It is obvious that the rider will live another day - at least he learned a valuable lesson.

The video raises some potential ethical questions too. Who was filming? How did they know to be there? Why did the law officer position himself in the blind spot on a decreasing radius turn? (In other words, did they set up a trap deliberately, knowing that they were likely to induce a low side from novice riders? If so, how does that match up with their oath to "protect and serve"?)
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post #8 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 5:18 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMagnaRider
....The video raises some potential ethical questions too. Who was filming? How did they know to be there? Why did the law officer position himself in the blind spot on a decreasing radius turn? (In other words, did they set up a trap deliberately, knowing that they were likely to induce a low side from novice riders? If so, how does that match up with their oath to "protect and serve"?)
Sir, what do you mean I set that poor bastard--ER--rider up? How was I to know he was going to be traveling double the speed limit? I just pulled off the road to update my MDT log.

Sir, I even checked my crystal ball, and it said nothing of some A/H--ER--poor rider doing double the speed limit in a decreasing radius turn!......

AND about the end of the video, captain: you did not see my size 12EEE boot up to my knee in the reckless bastard's ass--ER--poor crash victim's rear, I was merely helping him over--ER--back on his M/C and sending him on his way.....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #9 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 7:18 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Gotta get that ABS checked out.. it is supposed to engage all the time..(when I need it to) not just when it wants to..

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post #10 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 11:04 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

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Originally Posted by jayjacobson
Sir, what do you mean I set that poor bastard--ER--rider up? How was I to know he was going to be traveling double the speed limit? I just pulled off the road to update my MDT log.

Sir, I even checked my crystal ball, and it said nothing of some A/H--ER--poor rider doing double the speed limit in a decreasing radius turn!......

AND about the end of the video, captain: you did not see my size 12EEE boot up to my knee in the reckless bastard's ass--ER--poor crash victim's rear, I was merely helping him over--ER--back on his M/C and sending him on his way.....
I know you are joking, but that's not what I meant and you know it. I agree that it is 100% the rider's fault. I bet that after the event, the LEO assisted the rider first and foremost, making sure the rider was okay and uninjured. After that, I assume the LEO cited the rider for speeding, failure to control, or whatever. I doubt that the LEO gave him just a warning and sent him on his way.

Yes. The rider was speeding. Yes. It is likely that other riders have low-sided on that turn even without law enforcement presence.

Still, I consider it possible and maybe likely that the LEO positioned the patrol car in a way that took advantage of the situation. Perhaps the LEO wanted to teach a scary lesson only, and didn't realize that it might induce accidents.

The fact that a video camera was ready and running implies (but doesn't prove) that the filmmaker knew what was likely to happen. It is reasonable to assume that the LEO did, too. Whether the filmmaker and LEO had planned together ahead of time isn't known.

If the LEO deliberately positioned the car to induce accidents, especially if it is well known that the same thing has happened in the past, then the LEO's actions are morally reprehensible.
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post #11 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 11:09 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
Gotta get that ABS checked out.. it is supposed to engage all the time..(when I need it to) not just when it wants to..
Your ABS may not help in the situation shown in the video.
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post #12 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 11:40 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

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Originally Posted by XMagnaRider
.....If the LEO deliberately positioned the car to induce accidents, especially if it is well known that the same thing has happened in the past, then the LEO's actions are morally reprehensible.
"Deliberately positioned his car to induce accidents?!"


In that case, everywhere you go, at least in a marked unit, you would be "deliberately" inducing "accidents." AND we haven't even gotten to the term "accident," used most loosely here....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #13 of 27 Old Apr 1st, 2010, 11:52 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjacobson
: ... "Deliberately positioned his car to induce accidents?!" In that case, everywhere you go, at least in a marked unit, you would be "deliberately" inducing "accidents." AND we haven't even gotten to the term "accident," used most loosely here....
People often brake when they see marked units, as you implied. For some, it is almost instinctive. The rider was leaning into a decreasing radius turn, where the available traction margin is small. Sudden strong braking is dangerous under those conditions, and especially dangerous if the rider is exceeding the speed limit.

If a unit is positioned in such a place, the likelihood that a rider will grab too much brake and low side are significantly higher than if the unit were not there, or if the unit were positioned along a less dangerous segment of the road.

By "accident", I meant the low side event where the rider and his motorcycle lost traction, fell down on the roadway, and slid. I believe that most of the people who are reading this thread know what I meant by "accident". Perhaps Jay can provide the correct term.

I suggest the possibility that the unit was deliberately positioned in a place where riders were more likely to grab too much brake in reaction to seeing the unit, and fall down as a consequence. The fact that someone with a camera was pre-positioned to film the event lends credence to this idea. There is no way to know the truth without further information.

Jay: What do you think, seriously? Why was the unit positioned where it was? How did the person shooting the video know to be there?

Everyone else: Am I full of @#$% or do you think there may be some truth in what I wrote above?
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post #14 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 3:41 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMagnaRider
...Everyone else: Am I full of @#$% or do you think there may be some truth in what I wrote above?
Full agreement. I saw that video a little earlier (atrovarious posted it in another thread here) and that exactly was my first thought: the patrol car was positioned (not necessarily on purpose) in a very bad spot, where it startled the rider.

If it was me, I'd probably fall, too - when I see a cop I always instinctively get on the brakes - and especially hard if the radar detector goes off. Hard to force oneself to ignore.

And yes, I was also wondering how was the video taken, from some great vantage point.

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post #15 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 4:35 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMagnaRider
....By "accident", I meant the low side event where the rider and his motorcycle lost traction, fell down on the roadway, and slid. I believe that most of the people who are reading this thread know what I meant by "accident". Perhaps Jay can provide the correct term.

I suggest the possibility that the unit was deliberately positioned in a place where riders were more likely to grab too much brake in reaction to seeing the unit, and fall down as a consequence. The fact that someone with a camera was pre-positioned to film the event lends credence to this idea. There is no way to know the truth without further information.

Jay: What do you think, seriously? Why was the unit positioned where it was? How did the person shooting the video know to be there?

Everyone else: Am I full of @#$% or do you think there may be some truth in what I wrote above?
Yes, ff you're riding WAY to fast, and see a marked unit, you might just grab a hand full of brake and nut-up HUGE.

I don't use the term "accident" because when you're riding like that, what happens is not an unintended event, but more like a certainty. "Collision" would be a better term.

The officer might have been there to slow people down, on a road where there have been numerous collisions. OR, he could have just pulled over to update his MDT or paperwork.

As far as the photographer seemingly being at the right place at the right time, it could be as easy as knowing that numerous people have nutted-up around this curve before.

As far as suggesting "nut-up entrapment," that's really stretching it!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #16 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 10:37 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Trying to put sinister intent on the LEO is over the top. His position is a pull out area. While it may have unintended consequences for some going up hill, maybe his positioning is because people coming down the hill are encroaching on the inside lane creating a potential head on collision and his intent is to get the down hillers slowed down and staying in the outside lane. If you're going to make assumptions, why not look at all possibilities?

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post #17 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 2:18 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyBob
Trying to put sinister intent on the LEO is over the top. His position is a pull out area. While it may have unintended consequences for some going up hill, maybe his positioning is because people coming down the hill are encroaching on the inside lane creating a potential head on collision and his intent is to get the down hillers slowed down and staying in the outside lane. If you're going to make assumptions, why not look at all possibilities?
No way to know his "intent" either way... however, the results speak for themselves and are indisputable.

Maybe someone can speak to the "intent" of this SOB?

http://www.break.com/index/cop-stops...eed-biker.html

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post #18 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 4:50 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
....Maybe someone can speak to the "intent" of this SOB?....
The intent was obvious. BUT, his riding skills left his intent FLAT!

.....OR was that on the ocifer's front bumper?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #19 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 5:15 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
No way to know his "intent" either way... however, the results speak for themselves and are indisputable.

Maybe someone can speak to the "intent" of this SOB?

http://www.break.com/index/cop-stops...eed-biker.html

Speeding bikers thin themselves from the herd.
You don't specify who the SOB is here and I don't see any proof of a speeding biker. The car that caught the video, I assume a LEO, made a VERY sweeping right turn, almost into the oncoming right turn lane. Almost 2 lanes over.
It looks to me that the biker was compensating for the LEO's poor turn and tried to go to the left and the LEO hit him trying to get back into the right lane.

Just my $0.02,
Jer

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post #20 of 27 Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 8:50 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt
You don't specify who the SOB is here and I don't see any proof of a speeding biker. The car that caught the video, I assume a LEO, made a VERY sweeping right turn, almost into the oncoming right turn lane. Almost 2 lanes over.
It looks to me that the biker was compensating for the LEO's poor turn and tried to go to the left and the LEO hit him trying to get back into the right lane.

Just my $0.02,
Jer
It is quite clear that the LEO is completely in the oncoming traffic turn lane (notice the paint on the road) therefore his intent was to hit the biker which is why when the biker swerved to his left, the LEO who had first come to a complete stop then speed up while turning hard to the right to T-bone the biker and exclaimed, "I hit him." The result is a 31 year old female passenger who gets to learn how to talk again among other things and a costly lawsuit. Disagree with me as you wish... however think they should string him from the highest tree.... and had the rider of the bike been solely at fault I would say the same for him..... however, yes I do hold trained government employees paid with my tax dollars and entrusted to serve and protect to a higher standard for the aforementioned reasons and the fact that their poor decisions cost us all and for one young lady much, much more.

I can't imagine that being my daughter....... my .02

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...o.223a134.html

Watauga police deny wrongdoing after officer's car hits motorcycle in chase

08:07 AM CST on Saturday, December 8, 2007

By DEBRA DENNIS / The Dallas Morning News
[email protected]

Watauga Public Safety Chief Rande Benjamin on Friday denied any wrongdoing by his department after the release of a police dash-cam video showed one of his officers colliding with a motorcycle he was chasing.

The Aug. 25 collision injured the motorcycle driver, Derek Muzquiz, 25, and his passenger, Cynthia Arredondo, 31, of Fort Worth. Mr. Muzquiz spent a week in the hospital. Ms. Arredondo remains in a Tarrant County rehabilitation center recovering from severe head trauma.
Also Online

Video: Watauga officer chases motorcycle

Video: Chase ends when motorcycle collides with Watauga police cruiser

Officer William Allen has been identified as the officer who swerved into the motorcycle. He was suspended for 60 days after the crash for violating department policy. Another officer at the scene, who has not been identified, was suspended for 15 days by Chief Benjamin.

"There is nothing to cover up here," Chief Benjamin said. "There's nothing criminal here as far as we know. No one from the DA's office or the state [Texas] Rangers have contacted me."

David Montague, a spokesman for the Tarrant County district attorney's office, said Friday that his office has an evading arrest charge pending against Mr. Muzquiz, who remains free on $2,500 bail. The charge was filed by Watauga police, Mr. Montague said. He declined to comment on any other possible probe.

According to police, Mr. Muzquiz was driving south on U.S. Highway 377 around 10:30 p.m. that August night when he allegedly ran a red light and was pursued by the unidentified Watauga officer.

As Mr. Muzquiz turned east onto Chapman Road, he was then pursued from the opposite direction by Officer Allen.

The video, which was released earlier this week after an order from the Texas attorney general's office, shows Officer Allen driving into oncoming traffic and into the path of the black and blue 2006 Suzuki motorcycle.

Mr. Muzquiz and Ms. Arredondo are tossed onto the street.

"I hit him," Officer Allen is heard saying on the video.

The officer who started the pursuit appears a few seconds later and is overheard saying to Officer Allen: "What were you thinking?"

Chief Benjamin declined to comment about the video, saying the city has been notified that a lawsuit may be forthcoming.

Mr. Muzquiz could not be reached for comment.

His attorney, Ed McKinney, declined requests for an interview.

In addition to her severe head injuries, Ms. Arredondo also suffered a broken arm and leg, according to her aunt, Margaret Burcie of Fort Worth.

"She's learning to talk again," Ms. Burcie said. "She's also trying to get her strength back. It's slow. We're concerned about getting her healthy again so she can start her life."

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post #21 of 27 Old Apr 3rd, 2010, 10:24 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
....I can't imagine that being my daughter....

....David Montague, a spokesman for the Tarrant County district attorney's office, said Friday that his office has an evading arrest charge pending against Mr. Muzquiz, who remains free on $2,500 bail. The charge was filed by Watauga police, Mr. Montague said. He declined to comment on any other possible probe.

According to police, Mr. Muzquiz was driving south on U.S. Highway 377 around 10:30 p.m. that August night when he allegedly ran a red light and was pursued by the unidentified Watauga officer....
If that was my daughter, she'd be wearing my boot in her ass!

I guess what our grandma told us was true after all: beware the company you keep.....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #22 of 27 Old Apr 4th, 2010, 7:16 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

A couple of years ago we had set up a SMART trailer. The trailer that measures your speed as you drive by. We had to move in one spot because it was causing rear end crashes, cause folks slamming on there brakes to slow down. ooooops

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post #23 of 27 Old Apr 4th, 2010, 9:54 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

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Originally Posted by motorman587
A couple of years ago we had set up a SMART trailer. The trailer that measures your speed as you drive by. We had to move in one spot because it was causing rear end crashes, cause folks slamming on there brakes to slow down. ooooops
Yeah, just like red light cam's. Everything is fine til dumb-nuts sees the posted "photo enforced" sign and nuts up tighter than a rusty old drum....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #24 of 27 Old Apr 5th, 2010, 10:08 am
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by atrovarious
No way to know his "intent" either way... however, the results speak for themselves and are indisputable.

Maybe someone can speak to the "intent" of this SOB?

http://www.break.com/index/cop-stops...eed-biker.html

Speeding bikers thin themselves from the herd.
Let me try to keep these separate, in the video that started this thread, I would rate the LEO a secondary cause. In your added link, I would rate the LEO as the sole cause. While the pilot had an outstanding warrant, the severity of that warrant doesn't seem consistent with the use of deadly force, especially when the pillion is put at risk and there apparently weren't any outstanding charges against her.

You seem to have an axe to grind against law enforcement, but I'm a personal responsibility guy. If your intent is to break the law, then ride your ride & if you get busted, so be it. I see the brake reflex all the time by people who are already within the posted limit. It's a function of intent to do wrong yet appear to be law abiding. In the final analysis we all are responsible for the reasonable consequences of our own actions. Enabling irresponsible behavior by rewarding someone who buys a hot cup of coffee, puts it between their legs, crushing it and suing the seller of the coffee, is beyond me.

Case one, sympathy goes as far as "Bummer, Dude!"
Case two, LEO should never be behind the wheel of a cruiser again, but pilot also put his pillion in danger. Would require further study to determine what if any additional action should be taken against the LEO.

Benny C. (Central Texas)
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1986 Kawasaki Concours (Connie) sold
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post #25 of 27 Old Apr 5th, 2010, 10:07 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyBob
Let me try to keep these separate, in the video that started this thread, I would rate the LEO a secondary cause. In your added link, I would rate the LEO as the sole cause. While the pilot had an outstanding warrant, the severity of that warrant doesn't seem consistent with the use of deadly force, especially when the pillion is put at risk and there apparently weren't any outstanding charges against her.

You seem to have an axe to grind against law enforcement, but I'm a personal responsibility guy. If your intent is to break the law, then ride your ride & if you get busted, so be it. I see the brake reflex all the time by people who are already within the posted limit. It's a function of intent to do wrong yet appear to be law abiding. In the final analysis we all are responsible for the reasonable consequences of our own actions. Enabling irresponsible behavior by rewarding someone who buys a hot cup of coffee, puts it between their legs, crushing it and suing the seller of the coffee, is beyond me.

Case one, sympathy goes as far as "Bummer, Dude!"
Case two, LEO should never be behind the wheel of a cruiser again, but pilot also put his pillion in danger. Would require further study to determine what if any additional action should be taken against the LEO.
You're right on target, Benny. I love it when EVERYONE involved in a clusterfck nuts up HUGE, BUT, we're ONLY going to blame the ocifer! I don't view the female passenger as a "victim" in the slightest.

As I said before: beware the company you keep.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #26 of 27 Old Apr 8th, 2010, 2:08 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

In the first video, I can't see how the LEO was a "secondary" fault. We don't know if the biker would have locked the front and crashed even if the LEO wasn't there. Every twisty motorcycle road I know is likely to have police patrols to maintain a safe speed. If they are getting complaints from the public that vehicles are speeding they are obligated to patrol. Deciding to speed and the greater dangers to self and others is the responsibility of the driver violating the posted limit. The cop didn't lock the front wheel, the rider did. What happened to "good thing that the cop was there to call for help"

As to the second video, you can't have it both ways.

The first thing out of your mouth when that idiot cuts you off and is driving recklessly is "the police need to stop him" So your stance now has to include "but if he tries to get away, it is better that the police let him go because he MIGHT hurt someone trying to get away" but he is already a danger to cause harm to innocent victims because of his actions that caused the police to attempt to stop him in the first place.

Speeding and eluding are the fault of the driver deciding to elude. The police have to stop them because they are a risks to so many more people. The police backing off and allowing the criminal to get away does not deter others from attempting to get away.

Go back and step through the video. At 18 sec the cruiser turns the corner and over corrects, the bike hits it at 22 sec. The biker had 4 sec. to stop or make an evasive maneuver but he continued straight. Had the motorcyclist stopped when the lights came on behind him or when he saw the cruiser turn the corner in front of him, HE wouldn't have hit the car.

When the criminal gets away that killed, raped, robbed your family member because the police had to let him go be glad no one else got hurt.

_____________

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post #27 of 27 Old Apr 8th, 2010, 4:05 pm
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Re: One way to slow down for the LEO

Quote:
Originally Posted by alabrew
In the first video, I can't see how the LEO was a "secondary" fault.
As to the second video, you can't have it both ways.

When the criminal gets away that killed, raped, robbed your family member because the police had to let him go be glad no one else got hurt.
on video #1, I should have stated "secondary cause at most" however, it does appear that the front fork dives indicating front brake application. I was discussing cause & effect, not affixing blame. Primary cause was excessive speed and pilot skill. If the pilot applied the front brake and did so because of the presence of the LEO, then, by definition, the LEO's presence was a secondary cause. That does not in any way indicate that the LEO bears any fault. The pilot was clearly at fault.

on video #2, look again. The bike did not hit the cruiser, the cruiser T-boned the bike. Also look at the story link farther down. There's a number of factors to consider, but relative danger to the public and reason for pursuit must be considered. Motorcycles present a very minor public danger compared to cages. Running a red light does not justify use of deadly force. Attempting to evade apprehension is not limited to murderers, rapists, and armed robbers. While I agree that the pilot could/should have stopped, it was an inappropriate use of force by the LEO. To determine if it was more, would require more in depth investigation. I hope that clarifies my point of view.

Benny C. (Central Texas)
2001 LTC Pacific Blue (Babe...the blue ox)
1986 Kawasaki Concours (Connie) sold
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