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post #1 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 6:45 pm Thread Starter
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Can U identify this bike?

OK-for those of us who are on the backside of 50-can u identify this bike?
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post #2 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 6:53 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Looks like a pre-war BMW, don't know the model.

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post #3 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 6:58 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

R71 ? circa 1938...

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post #4 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 7:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Ted, hows it hanging--Phil here. Saw u few months ago in Sac at a Ducati dinner. I was also thinkin pre-war Bemmer--but was also thinkin it looked like a Ural also. r u sure on the Beemer?

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post #5 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 7:06 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

I'm no where near an expert on these things. That side valve motor wasn't made by BMW after the late 30's. The Russians did confiscate the factory after 1945 and did build them like that though.

That bike looks too good to be a Ural but I could be wrong. Where is it? For sale?

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post #6 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 8:13 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

The engine looks like a Dnepr.


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post #7 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 8:30 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

I can't say for certain ...... but it is a bit suspicious that if you save the picture it comes up with a default filename of "ural.jpg".

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post #8 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 9:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoolbaugh
I can't say for certain ...... but it is a bit suspicious that if you save the picture it comes up with a default filename of "ural.jpg".
No No--just saved it to that name cause I thought it looked like a Ural-really dont know what it is.

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post #9 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 9:23 pm
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Talking Re: Can U identify this bike?

Its a War time Harley! Check out the pics on the link below (Be sure to scroll down!):
http://books.google.com/books?id=9iV...20Twin&f=false

It was called a "XA" according to the article.

Here is a better page with more pics:
http://jeffdean2.home.att.net/h-d.htm

Google is great!

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post #10 of 19 Old Oct 13th, 2009, 10:06 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Google is ok. Googl mail servers were off about 3 hours today.

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post #11 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 8:12 am
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

I don't think it's the war time harley. The tank, Speedo and front fender are very different.

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post #12 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 9:14 am
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

I don't think it's an XA (war time Harley)
a local friend of mine has one and the tank and fenders are different.
That's not to say they didn't use whatever they had laying around at the time,
his is the desert model, solid wheels so the sand doesn't get between the spokes.

but the glove box in the tank and the clutch/brake levers have a definite European "flavor"
Also the Harley had a springer front end the bike in the picture has a telescopic front end,
my guess is Russian or possibly a Japanese/Chinese copy. built after the war.
I think one of the Checkoslovakian countries built one also,
whatever it is, (no visible badges) it is a copy of a 1938 BMW R71 (745cc) built for sidecar use.

Edit: ok I found it, it is still being built today in China by several manufactorers and exported through South Africa
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post #13 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 10:10 am Thread Starter
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

I think it is a copy of a R41-late "30's. Dnepr/KMZ copied the BMW design. Chinese bought it in the 50's. Half way down link is a 750 which looks like it. Think beemers of this vintage were copied all over eastern europe and they were bulletproof.

http://www.autosoviet.altervista.org...oto(Dnepr).htm

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post #14 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 10:23 am
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Dnepr or Ural

If you post that Pic on the ADV rider site, You'll probably get an exact answer from one of the sidecar guys....

Most likely 650 or 750 CC's

I'm not too familiar with it...




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post #15 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 10:51 am
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarinPhil
I think it is a copy of a R41-late "30's. Dnepr/KMZ copied the BMW design. Chinese bought it in the 50's. Half way down link is a 750 which looks like it. Think beemers of this vintage were copied all over eastern europe and they were bulletproof.

http://www.autosoviet.altervista.org/ENGLISH-automotorusse9-Moto(Dnepr).htm
I think you're right. I showed that pic to a couple people here at the shop yesterday and they thought it was probably Chinese. It's definitely not the HD.

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post #16 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 5:00 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarinPhil
I think it is a copy of a R41-late "30's.
BMW never made an R41
The side valve or flat heads as we called them in America
R42 (500cc) was introduced in 1926,
the R52 (500cc) in 1928 as well as the R62 (750cc)
Then they went to the pressed steel frames until 1935
during that time they built mostly overhead valve models (round valve covers)
until 1938 when they came out with the R61 (600cc) and the R71 (750cc)
the American XA is a copy of the R12 Wehrmacht

Here's a real good source of information regarding models.


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post #17 of 19 Old Oct 14th, 2009, 7:30 pm
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Re: Can U identify this bike?

OK I've consulted some OLD BMW Gurus and based on the exposed springs front and rear and the shape/design of the rear fender brace it's a...................






Chinese copy of a BMW.


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post #18 of 19 Old Oct 18th, 2009, 2:53 pm
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Talking Re: Can U identify this bike? (LONG)

It is a CHANG JIANG 750 M1
The Chang Jiang 750 is basicly a BMW R71. Equipped with a 4 stroke, 746 cc flat twin, side-valve engine. The twin-cylinder side valve "Flathead "engine, is the original BMW & quot;boxer engine&quot ; design principle. However, The CJ 750 M 1 that is being built today, is a not a direct copy of the 1938 BMW R71 but a copy of the Russian built Ural M-72. The Chinses built CJ 750 comes in three types, the M1 (24 HP 6V), the M 1M (24 HP 12 V) and the newM1S OVH (Super Over Head Valve 32 HP) .

How it came to be...
After the 1st World War, The terms of surrender, imposed trough The Treaty of Versailles, prohibited Germany from producing any form of military machinery, including vehicles. This also meant, no large capacity motorcycles. The rising German administration of the 30's needed military equipment and thus developed a strategy to get around the restrictions by pursuing joint ventures with Russia . This was achieved by the signing of a 7 year trade agreement known as the Molotov- Ribbentrop pact, formally known as the Treaty of Nonaggression between Germany and the USSR . It was signed in Moscow on August 10, 1939. At this time BMW's cooperation with Uralmoto Zavod was limited to the production of the BMW R71 classical motorcycle.

They kept the newly developed BMW R75 secrets for themselves. The non-aggression treaty lasted until Operation Barbarossa of June 22, 1941 when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union . In response, Russia joined forces with the Allies against Hitler. Russia retained certain BMW tooling and designs for the R71 motorcycle, and the Russian militarized R71 versions was designated the M72. This bike was almost identical to the BMW R71, and also featured the familiar horizontally opposed, 746 cc flat twin, side-valve engine.

In the spring of 1941 the BMW R75 was introduced. Built according to German war ministry instructions, without cost limitations. This high performance war machine had incredible off-road capabilities. The Wehrmachts new ride was soon recognized as one of the best motorcycles ever produced. They offered unprecedented mobility, performance and reliability on the battlefield at that time. Even Harley-Davidson copied the BMW design and delivered about 1,000 Harley-Davidson XA (Experimental Army) flat-twin shaft drive motorcycles to the US Army during World War II.

Having a great bike couldn't help the Germans win the war. After the German surrender, the Allies had full access to the shattered remains of Germany 's once impressive automotive industry.

The BMW motorcycle factory, which had been relocated to Eisenach during the war (and producing the BMW R75), fell into Russian hands as Eisenach was in Russian occupied territory.
The Russians took possession of all the BMW blueprints and tooling, and shipped the few remaining BMW R75 motorcycles and all the production parts left at the factory back to Russia . The R75 dual wheel drive system design technology was also then apparently used to create the relatively advanced, Russian military dual wheel drive overhead-valve “Ural” and “Dnepr” models .

The Ural story begins in 1939, with the pre-WWII planning of the USSR . The Soviet Union knew it would soon be going to war (despite the Molotov-von Ribentoff Pact), against the german Third Reich Germany . Joseph Stalin ordered the military to prepare in all areas, including the ground forces that would be defending the Russian "motherland " against the invading German Panzers, ground troops, and German special forces. Having seen the effects of the & quot ;Blitzkrieg &quot ; against the Polish Army, mobility was of paramount importance! A meeting was held at the Defence Ministry of the USSR and the topic of discussion was what a model of motorcycles was going to be the most suitable.

The Red Army wanted to modernise their equipment after termination of the military conflict with Finland .

The motorcycles used so far had not worked satisfactorily, their technology was outdated and the manufacturing quality left much to desire. The BMW R71 motorcycle was found to most closely match the requirements and 5 units were covertly purchased through some Swedish intermediaries in neutral Sweden and copied. Soviet engineers in Moscow dismantled the BMWs. They copied the design in every detail and made moulds and dies to produce their own engines and gearboxes in Moscow . Everything about the bike was reversed engineered and early in 1941 the first trial samples of M-72 motorcycles were shown to Stalin and the decision was taken to produce them.


Years later, when the side-valve model had become obsolete, manufacture of the old M72 (BMW R71) was offered to their Chinese Communist who wasted no time in dropping the KS500 based machine for the tried and tested BMW R71/M72 design motorcycle. The BMW R71/ M72, renamed the "Chang Jiang" entered production during 1957 at the Chinese Nanchang aircraft factory.

Around 1985, the Chinese, realized that the original R71 side valve engine was now somewhat less than state-of-the-art. They once again entered an agreement with the Russians, with the objective of improving the engine's performance. The Russians provided OHV engine technology, and soon a OHV 750cc-boxer engine.

Vince Weidig
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post #19 of 19 Old Oct 19th, 2009, 3:00 am
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Re: Can U identify this bike? (LONG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayliner2052
It is a CHANG JIANG 750 M1
The Chang Jiang 750 is basicly a BMW R71. Equipped with a 4 stroke, 746 cc flat twin, side-valve engine. The twin-cylinder side valve "Flathead "engine, is the original BMW & quot;boxer engine&quot ; design principle. However, The CJ 750 M 1 that is being built today, is a not a direct copy of the 1938 BMW R71 but a copy of the Russian built Ural M-72. The Chinses built CJ 750 comes in three types, the M1 (24 HP 6V), the M 1M (24 HP 12 V) and the newM1S OVH (Super Over Head Valve 32 HP) .

How it came to be...
After the 1st World War, The terms of surrender, imposed trough The Treaty of Versailles, prohibited Germany from producing any form of military machinery, including vehicles. This also meant, no large capacity motorcycles. The rising German administration of the 30's needed military equipment and thus developed a strategy to get around the restrictions by pursuing joint ventures with Russia . This was achieved by the signing of a 7 year trade agreement known as the Molotov- Ribbentrop pact, formally known as the Treaty of Nonaggression between Germany and the USSR . It was signed in Moscow on August 10, 1939. At this time BMW's cooperation with Uralmoto Zavod was limited to the production of the BMW R71 classical motorcycle.

They kept the newly developed BMW R75 secrets for themselves. The non-aggression treaty lasted until Operation Barbarossa of June 22, 1941 when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union . In response, Russia joined forces with the Allies against Hitler. Russia retained certain BMW tooling and designs for the R71 motorcycle, and the Russian militarized R71 versions was designated the M72. This bike was almost identical to the BMW R71, and also featured the familiar horizontally opposed, 746 cc flat twin, side-valve engine.

In the spring of 1941 the BMW R75 was introduced. Built according to German war ministry instructions, without cost limitations. This high performance war machine had incredible off-road capabilities. The Wehrmachts new ride was soon recognized as one of the best motorcycles ever produced. They offered unprecedented mobility, performance and reliability on the battlefield at that time. Even Harley-Davidson copied the BMW design and delivered about 1,000 Harley-Davidson XA (Experimental Army) flat-twin shaft drive motorcycles to the US Army during World War II.

Having a great bike couldn't help the Germans win the war. After the German surrender, the Allies had full access to the shattered remains of Germany 's once impressive automotive industry.

The BMW motorcycle factory, which had been relocated to Eisenach during the war (and producing the BMW R75), fell into Russian hands as Eisenach was in Russian occupied territory.
The Russians took possession of all the BMW blueprints and tooling, and shipped the few remaining BMW R75 motorcycles and all the production parts left at the factory back to Russia . The R75 dual wheel drive system design technology was also then apparently used to create the relatively advanced, Russian military dual wheel drive overhead-valve “Ural” and “Dnepr” models .

The Ural story begins in 1939, with the pre-WWII planning of the USSR . The Soviet Union knew it would soon be going to war (despite the Molotov-von Ribentoff Pact), against the german Third Reich Germany . Joseph Stalin ordered the military to prepare in all areas, including the ground forces that would be defending the Russian "motherland " against the invading German Panzers, ground troops, and German special forces. Having seen the effects of the & quot ;Blitzkrieg &quot ; against the Polish Army, mobility was of paramount importance! A meeting was held at the Defence Ministry of the USSR and the topic of discussion was what a model of motorcycles was going to be the most suitable.

The Red Army wanted to modernise their equipment after termination of the military conflict with Finland .

The motorcycles used so far had not worked satisfactorily, their technology was outdated and the manufacturing quality left much to desire. The BMW R71 motorcycle was found to most closely match the requirements and 5 units were covertly purchased through some Swedish intermediaries in neutral Sweden and copied. Soviet engineers in Moscow dismantled the BMWs. They copied the design in every detail and made moulds and dies to produce their own engines and gearboxes in Moscow . Everything about the bike was reversed engineered and early in 1941 the first trial samples of M-72 motorcycles were shown to Stalin and the decision was taken to produce them.


Years later, when the side-valve model had become obsolete, manufacture of the old M72 (BMW R71) was offered to their Chinese Communist who wasted no time in dropping the KS500 based machine for the tried and tested BMW R71/M72 design motorcycle. The BMW R71/ M72, renamed the "Chang Jiang" entered production during 1957 at the Chinese Nanchang aircraft factory.

Around 1985, the Chinese, realized that the original R71 side valve engine was now somewhat less than state-of-the-art. They once again entered an agreement with the Russians, with the objective of improving the engine's performance. The Russians provided OHV engine technology, and soon a OHV 750cc-boxer engine.
You guys are amazing! I'm sure the Chinese will be selling Government Motors veh's, any day now, for half price!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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